| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/05/22 05:05 AM |
What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I've found brass and dies for my model 1905. Bore slugs at .352, tight. I can't seem to find any .355 200 grain round nose bullets in google search. they are mostly .358. Anyone know of any .355 or .356 200 grain round nose bullets? Thanks.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 28/05/22 05:24 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Only thing I can suggest is Lee sizer dies, each one .002 to 3" smaller than the other, to get down to groove diameter.
So - .356", then .354", and likely .352".
This is what I would do.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/05/22 06:07 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Quote:
I've found brass and dies for my model 1905. Bore slugs at .352, tight. I can't seem to find any .355 200 grain round nose bullets in google search. they are mostly .358. Anyone know of any .355 or .356 200 grain round nose bullets? Thanks.
Try Hawk bullets. https://hawkbullets.com/bullet-selection.html
They offer 200 grain for .351” for the .351 Win Self Loader as well as .353”, .354”, .356” for 9mm rifles.
He can be hard to get ahold of sometimes but in the end it is worth it with obscure bullet sizes and weights.
They are much like the old Barnes copper jacket cup and core bullets, I personally find they work just fine at “vintage rifle” velocities.
- Mike
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/05/22 06:18 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I called Hawk 3dog. Backorder but said would be run this summer. Guess I take what I can get. Thanks.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/05/22 06:24 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Quote:
I called Hawk 3dog. Backorder but said would be run this summer. Guess I take what I can get. Thanks.
I guess in this economy and state of things that’s doing well…..
- Mike
ADDED:
Too bad that, thanks to ITAR, it is just too hard for we in the USA to import reloading components from Europe. I would guess that there would be proper size 9mm rifle components fairly easily available somewhere in the EU?
| fjrdoc |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/05/22 07:33 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I just purchase a 1905 M-S and I slugged the barrel. I contacted Hawk Bullets and I placed an order for .354 RN from them. They told me the same thing ..... should be available early summer.
I have been considering purchasing this for reloading of this rifle.
http://swinglock.net/
I purchased one for drawing down .323 bullets for my .318 8mm J Simpson Suhl hunting rifle. The die is adjustable which helps if you experience "spring back" after sizing. They aren't exactly cheap but the ability to adjust the diameter saves on buying multiple dies. It also gives you a chance to experement with various bullet diameters.
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/05/22 07:46 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I'm not going to shoot it enough to justify $175 on a sizing die.
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/05/22 07:50 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Never heard of an 'adjustable' sizing die before!
I'm sure it'll work for your MS as well Fjrdoc.
Well done indeed
| fjrdoc |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/05/22 08:09 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I was very impressed with the quality of the product. It's nice to have variable options.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 28/05/22 11:25 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Adjustable bullet sizing die is news to me as well. Interesting and can't help but wonder how it's made.
| szihn |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/05/22 04:33 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Slug your bore. I had an old M/S 9X65 and hunted with it a few years. The grooves mikes at .3585 instead of the .355" we are all told they have.
I used standard American .358" 35 cal bullet in it and that worked perfectly.
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/05/22 04:25 PM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I stated in the first post here that the bore slugged at .352.
| fjrdoc |
| (.300 member) |
| 10/06/22 09:12 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I placed an order for 250 grain bullets for my 1905 MS through Hawk. I was told that they would probably be produced in early summer. I stumbled upon the Quality Cartridge home page:
http://www.qual-cart.com/
As I looked through their online catalog, I noticed that they offer 200 and 250 grain monolithic hunting bullets in.354 and .356 diameters. I spoke with Pete at QC and he suggested that I try the .354 diameter 200 grain bullets in my .355 barrel.
I'm anxious to do some shooting with my 1905 so I purchased a box. This is a spitzer design so I'll have to see how it functions in the rotary magazine. My 1903 handles Hornady 129 gr Interlock spire points without a problem.
I'll report back to the forum once I get a chance to give these bullets a try.
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 10/06/22 11:09 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I'd be interested in knowing if they will work for sure. My bore slugs at .352 though.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 10/06/22 12:26 PM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Only if the oversized bullets will fit inside a fired case from your rifle.
According to Ackley, if the chamber's neck allows enough expansion to release the oversized bullets, there will be zero or very little increased pressures, according to his tests with shooting up to .35*" bullets from a .30/06. He had to increase the neck diameter of the chamber to allow the shooting of the 150gr. .358 bullets. The same powder charge was used for all bullet diameters tested.
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 10/06/22 01:10 PM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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fjrdoc did you slug your bore to determine the bore size?
| fjrdoc |
| (.300 member) |
| 11/06/22 04:02 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Yes, I slugged my barrel and it measured .355
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/06/22 04:17 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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I've heard that there are quite a few different size bores.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 11/06/22 05:06 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Can't help but wondering the chamber reamers used, were all similar or to CIP specs, in that they would allow the largest bullets be used, ie: .358/7?
Found this:
This would suggest if the fired case's neck is larger than .380", that it would hold/chamber a .357" bullet, no matter what the groove diameter was.
If this is the "case" then suitable reloading data could be produced.
If a fired case does not allow a bullet to enter, that diameter bullet cannot be used, unless other 'things' are done to the chamber, the case, or perhaps both.
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/06/22 05:19 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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They seem to run from the smallest like mine of .352 to .358. Quite a large range for bore diameter.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 11/06/22 05:23 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Seemingly, not much CIP compliance.
I have 2 boxes of 9MM Mauser Kynoch 245gr. ammo (19rounds). The bullets measure .355/6 at the case mouth.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/06/22 08:20 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Quote:
Seemingly, not much CIP compliance.
I have 2 boxes of 9MM Mauser Kynoch 245gr. ammo (19rounds). The bullets measure .355/6 at the case mouth.
In that CIP was only enacted in 1969 dimensions would seem to have been open to gun and ammunition makers “interpretation” back when most of these rifles were made.
Keep in mind some original .404/10.75mm had .418” groove-groove barrels and .422”-.423” bullets.
The oversized bullets worked well enough and simply were squeezed to size in the throat. Soft(ish) jackets of cupronickel, mild steel, or gilding metal and cup & core bullets.
- Mike
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/06/22 09:13 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Yes, but you'd think that a manufacturer would use the same measurement for a single model.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/06/22 09:31 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Quote:
Yes, but you'd think that a manufacturer would use the same measurement for a single model.
Who knows?
Maybe a different barrel supplier? Barrel made on a Monday? Barrel made in the afternoon after a "3 pot" lunch?
- Mike
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 11/06/22 10:38 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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The same discrepancy happens in the 9.3x57's as to groove to groove dimensions as well as body length differences from the standard 57mm Mauser case. The body needed to fit my chamber was .019" longer than the 8mm Mauser body. With soft-ball loads in the 30,000PSI to 35,000PSI range, if brass was simply necked up 8x57, in many rifles the firing of low pressure loads resulted in backed out primers due to the longer body length in the chamber producing excessive headspace.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/06/22 06:19 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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For some time now I am working on loads for a Mannlicher – Schoenauer M 1905 in 9x56 M-S
I never encountered the same problems with any 9x57 Mauser, rimless or rimmed, rifle barrel. As my barrel is of .357” groove diameter, shooting .358” bullets from reformed 8x57 brass should not be a problem but it was. A chamber cast revealed the culprit: As Daryl_S noted above, P.O.Ackley once experimented with oversized bullets in grossly undersized barrels. His findings: It’s not the undersized barrel that raises pressure, but the too tight chamber neck and throat dimensions that allow no case neck expansion to release the bullet. Well, the Austrians had found out the same thing 40 years earlier, in 1916, when they adapted tens of thousands of conquered Russian Moisin – Nagant rifles to use their own 8x50R Mannlicher cartridges by simply rechambering with a generous neck and forcing cone and shot their .324” bullets through the.313” groove barrels. But in 1905 the Steyr people apparently did not know this. The chamber cast revealed an undersize neck area with barely 9.68 mm, even a tad below the now CIP minimum of 9.7 mm = .382”. Maybe a worn chambering reamer? Comparing the CIP numbers for the 9x56 M-S and the 9x57 Mauser revealed the general problem. As both cartridges use the same 9.08 mm = .357” bullets, the chamber and case neck diameters differ considerably: Max cartridge neck diameter of the M-S is 9.65 mm = .380” vs. 9.83 mm =.387” of the Mauser. Minimum Chamber neck is 9.7 mm = .382” vs. 9.88 mm = .389”. So the 9x56 M-S chamber has much less leeway regarding variations in bullet or case neck thickness. My solution: I will open up the neck area of my chamber with a 9.9 mm = .390” reamer.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 12/06/22 08:24 AM |
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Re: What bullets for the 9x56ms?
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Chambering reamer manufacturers and gun companies & reloading die manufacturers, all have minimum and maximum tolerances for their tooling & thus how ctgs. fit their chambers.
Tight chambers exist as do loose or larger chambers. Old, oft-times re-sharpened reamers vs brand new reamers. It happens.
My buddy brad had a brand new 6.5x55 Ruger M77 from which WW brass sized in RCBS dies, would not hold a bullet as the dies did not squeeze the case tightly enough. The dies were probably made with a brand new reamer. RP brass and Fed brass worked just fine, having thicker neck walls.
Some reamer makers in the States make "chucking reamers" which can be used for opening up chamber necks. These were fairly inexpensive a few years ago (maybe 10?) & were made in .001" increments.
I don't know if this or these types of reamers are also made in Europe.