Louis
(.375 member)
20/05/20 10:17 PM
Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down


I have had this Mannlicher Schoenauer for several years now but had not yet posted it on the Forum, mainly by lack of available time as writing a presentable post always require some work. It took me many years to find it as I noticed that MS1905 were much rarer on the market than MS1903 and MS1908, or MS1910 to a lesser extent; maybe because they were produced in lesser numbers?









This MS 1905 Take Down is dated from 1922 and his therefore 98-year-old now; she is however in pink condition and should have either seen little action or have had really caring owners: apart from some superficial scratches on the stock’s polish the wood is really fine and the checkering is still crisp; the steel is neither pitted nor rusted nor drilled and retains most of its (original?) bluing; not any screw is butchered; the bore shines (groves shines but lands are a bit dark and would require good scrubbing); and all parts bear the same serial number, although I must confess two to three small ones such as the ejector on the bolt head.



























She came to me with a removable pistol grip cap, a bolt-mounted Lyman diopter, apparently of the 1A type, and a cleaning rod of which I can’t tell whether it is a factory supplied model?









She sports the “Not English Make” marking, in addition to standard Austrian and British proof marks, which means that she was imported in the UK from 1925, when this marking became compulsory.







Apart from all that she is a standard MS 1905 Take Down of 110 cm / 43,3 inches length for a 57 cm / 22,5 inches long barrel.

I shoot Dorfner (Austria) Teilmantelgeschoss 16,5 grams / 255 grains ammunition but has not taken her hunting and do not plan doing so as I already have “dedicated” hunting rifles, kipplaufs mostly.

Louis


JDL
(.333 member)
20/05/20 11:42 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Wow, that is a crispy one. Love it!

Louis
(.375 member)
21/05/20 01:09 AM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Thank you, JDL.
Louis


Rothhammer1
(.400 member)
21/05/20 08:07 AM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Quote:



She came to me with a removable pistol grip cap, a bolt-mounted Lyman diopter, apparently of the 1A type, and a cleaning rod of which I can’t tell whether it is a factory supplied model?

Louis





She's a beauty. Excellent photos, as well.
That is most definitely a "presentable post"!

The M1905, I believe, was indeed manufactured in smaller numbers than the M1908 or M1910 and far fewer than the M1903.

That high gloss finish may be original. My cased M1910 Takedown, also Vienna proofed 1922 along with British proofs, has that finish. I know it's unchanged from 1932 when my grandfather purchased it 'second hand' in Ceylon. It, too, has the grip cap storage (with spare sight bead therein) as well as the optional folding peep sight.


This is not my MS, it's a photo swiped from the 'net.


Your cleaning rods appear absolutely proper for the MS (I just brought mine out to compare) but are you missing one? They did come in four or five piece versions. Mine has five segments measuring 6.9 inches each. The brass 'jag' end looks just like yours. Do your other three segments all have both ends threaded?

Of my five steel segments, one has the brass 'jag' at one end (not threaded) with the other female threaded as yours in the image, three have a male threaded steel end and brass slotted, female threaded other end (as three in your image), then a fifth one with one end male threaded and the other shaped and slotted like the brass ends but all steel with no female thread - it is smooth at the end.

Mine does have a 60cm barrel, but it seems a four piece rod set would have two segments with both ends threaded, one with only female and one with only male threads so they assemble with smooth ends.

Here is your Lyman 1A, a nice bit of kit:







NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
21/05/20 06:25 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Wow wow wow!

Louis, what a great study of the M 1905. Thanks very much for posting.

I think you are right the 9 mm M-S does seem more rarer and lesser seen. If less were made initially no doubt a strong reason for the rarity. And when the 9.5 mm was made, perhaps less reason to own a 9 mm. A 6.5 mm or 8 mm and then a 9.5 mm.

A lovely rifle, and I have no doubt you put it to use. Should make a grand boar rifle.


93x64mm
(.416 member)
21/05/20 10:13 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Louis, that is a very rare old bird to be in such wonderful condition!
Yes it would be a crime to see it knocked about; & considering that you have dedicated 'hunting' rifles, I would still make an exception to take this one out regardless!
Thanks mate, a great write up & wonderful photography as well.
A family heirloom this one will stay!


Louis
(.375 member)
21/05/20 10:56 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Rothhammer, Nitrox and 9,3x64 , thank you.

Rothhammer, the four segments of the cleaning rod put together are 66 cm / 26 inches long, which looks good for cleaning a 57 cm / 22,5 cm long barrel; anyway, there won't be any room left in the dedicated compartment for storing a fifth segment so I assume that this cleaning rod was four-segment only. Did you still get your grand dad's "new hat rack" and leopard skull? With regards to "presentable posts" I have learnt by experience - as most of us if not all of us did, that it took almost the same amount of energy to do something well than to screw it, but when you screw something you'll have to do it again, so better doing things properly in the first instance as this will save time and energy!

Louis


Rothhammer1
(.400 member)
22/05/20 10:16 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Quote:

Rothhammer, Nitrox and 9,3x64 , thank you.

Rothhammer, the four segments of the cleaning rod put together are 66 cm / 26 inches long, which looks good for cleaning a 57 cm / 22,5 cm long barrel; anyway, there won't be any room left in the dedicated compartment for storing a fifth segment so I assume that this cleaning rod was four-segment only. Did you still get your grand dad's "new hat rack" and leopard skull?

Louis




Mine measure 17.5cm per segment, a tad longer for the brass 'jag' end:



The 'fifth rod' is shaped like the connecting rods, but is all one piece steel with a smooth, slightly domed (not threaded), end where the female threads are on the others.

It's been a long time since I've had them out and they do fit rather snugly in their compartment. One loads them three with the fat end down, two with the narrow. They are a bit long when assembled, but that makes it nice for running patches from the breech end. I can leave a segment out and still have a rod more than 7.5cm longer than the barrel,
I use the rods provided with cleaning kits on it, actually. The originals just reside in the stock.


In the above image (swiped from the 'net) is another five piece set. On this one both terminal ends appear to be steel.


It seems you saw the hunt photos before I shortened my prior post. I was concerned that I was wandering too far astray from relevance to your fine M1905 (would I do that?).

As the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, and to answer your question, no. I don't think any buffalo parts made it back to the States with G'pa, nor the leopard's skull. The pith helmet has long since turned to powder.

Johnny's hat rack (for use in the field )

I do, however, have the cat's claws in the MS' fitted case.

One of my brothers had the pelt decades ago but it was in very bad shape, possibly never having been properly cured.





Rothhammer1
(.400 member)
23/05/20 12:41 AM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Quote:





I shoot Dorfner (Austria) Teilmantelgeschoss 16,5 grams / 255 grains ammunition but has not taken her hunting and do not plan doing so as I already have “dedicated” hunting rifles, kipplaufs mostly.

Louis




Just don't load her with more than 35 grains of Cordite!


Louis
(.375 member)
23/05/20 06:09 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Thank you Rothhammer; nice that you still have the leopard's claws in addition to the rifle!
Louis


Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
24/05/20 08:51 AM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Louis, beautiful rifle in great condition. Especially nice with the removable grip cap.

I have a 1903 retailed by Beesley which is is almost identical to yours, same stock shape, same checkering style and pattern and the same sights.

As far as your statement that the model 1905 is the least produced of the four original prewar models you are correct in as far as numbers for sure. It is interesting to note though that the 1905 is much more common among British retailed rifles where it is relatively easy to find a rifle so chambered. Whereas the 1908 on the other hand is super rare as a British retailed rifle, the British having somewhat of a hatred of the 8mm projectile size.

Fantastic rifle.



Matt.


Louis
(.375 member)
26/05/20 06:50 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Thank you very much Matt.
Really interesting and how true comment about "the British having somewhat of a hatred of the 8mm projectile size"; Brits did and still have really good classic tastes (rifles, cars, tailoring, etc.) however they we not and are not always right on all fronts! The 8 mm really remained until now a true continental Europe hunting calibre. Brits probably ignored it at the start of the XXth century as the existing 6,5 and 7 mm were already filling the requirement for hunting in the British Isles and because they were looking for something bigger, 9 and 9,5 mm for big/dangerous game hunting within the British Empire; but that's only a personal guess!
Louis


Marrakai
(.416 member)
26/05/20 07:44 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Functionally speaking, I think the .318 WR was the British 8mm.

Louis
(.375 member)
27/05/20 04:04 AM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Yes Marrakai, you're probably right.
Louis


fraserdouble
(.275 member)
23/06/20 09:04 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

I note that Louis has some factory 9x56mm cartridges and am sure many other members have some as well. For those that do, could they possibly do some measurements preferably in inches but if not possible, metric is fine and post them for the benefit of all members. Of particular interest are the following dimensions of original factory rounds. Please indicate manufacturer.
1 base at the web not the rim.
2 at .5” from the base of the case
3 outside of neck close to the bullet
4 bullet diameter immediately in front of case mouth.

Thanks to all who can help.
Fraser


Louis
(.375 member)
24/06/20 05:58 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Fraser

Please find below the requested information, in Imperial units:



I use Dorfner ammunition for all my MS rifles in 6,5mm, 8mm, 9mm and 9,5 mm; excellent factory ammunition by the way.


I also attach information from the Spanish website munition.org , with Metric units:



Louis


Rothhammer1
(.400 member)
25/06/20 03:44 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Diameter at web and at base are not the same per this drawing:


Base = .468"
Web = .465"

These dimensions differ slightly from the Municion.org spec's, as do diameters of bullet and case neck at mouth:

Case neck at mouth (outside dimension) - .380"
Projectile diameter at case mouth - .357"

Link to 'site: LoadData.com

This one lists rim diameter as .468", base diameter .464", neck .381" bullet diameter .358" jacketed, .359" cast: Gunboards



Reloading for the 9X56 is discussed here: AfricaHunting


fraserdouble
(.275 member)
26/06/20 10:49 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Thanks Louis and Rothhammrer,
The variations in specifications for the 9x56 MS from different sources is quite large, hence I am interested in actual cartridge dimensions. If any other members could measure any factory cartridges they have that would be great.
For the assistance of members and to add to NEF reference material, I will collate all the information I gather into a table with some notes.
Chamber variations of individual rifles just adds to the mix.
Other members please chip in.
Fraser


Carpetsahib
(.333 member)
27/06/20 10:38 PM
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1905 Take Down

Quote:

Thanks Louis and Rothhammrer,
The variations in specifications for the 9x56 MS from different sources is quite large, hence I am interested in actual cartridge dimensions. If any other members could measure any factory cartridges they have that would be great.
For the assistance of members and to add to NEF reference material, I will collate all the information I gather into a table with some notes.
Chamber variations of individual rifles just adds to the mix.
Other members please chip in.
Fraser


Please keep in mind that there are two ways to obtain cartridge dimensions: 1) Actually measure a factory cartridge 2) Measure a chamber casting. The dimensions will not be identical.

fraserdouble
(.275 member)
29/10/24 07:34 PM
9 x56 MS

Hi all,

I have read all the posts on this cartridge and it certainly has its challenges which are interesting.

However, you can never have too much information when things do not go smoothly.

During my research I have found two articles specific to this calibre and wondered if any members could possibly provide copies of them.

The articles are.
"Mannlicher Bundle of Trouble" by Tery Weiland in Handloader June/July 2021 and
"9x56MS in Pet Loads by Ken Waters, 2008 edition page 924.

Any help with these would be greatly appreciated,

Fraser


DonZ
(.300 member)
29/10/24 10:10 PM
Re: 9 x56 MS

I have a copy of Pet Loads, but I'm out of town and away for my library for a bit. If no one else pops up, remind me in a couple of weeks...

DarylS
(.700 member)
30/10/24 04:40 AM
Re: 9 x56 MS

I just measured a factory Kynoch 9mm Mauser round with 245gr. bullet.
The rim diameter was .464" and the base diameter was .4645".
Probably muddies the water somewhat.
Just checked my Pet Loads and did not find the 9x56MS.
Just checked JJDonnely's book which lists 9x56MS:
Rim dia...... .464"
Head dia.......464"
Shoulder dia. .408"
Case Length...2.22"
which is 56.388 mm


fraserdouble
(.275 member)
30/10/24 04:58 PM
Re: 9 x56 MS

Thanks DonZ will do.
Fraser


fraserdouble
(.275 member)
30/10/24 06:19 PM
Re: 9 x56 MS

Hi DarylS,

Yes, it certainly muddies the water but that is not unusual for this cartridge.

I believe that at one time, both Western and Rem Peters made a cartridge which fitted both the Mauser 9x57 and the 9x56 MS.

The 9x56MS seems to have a wider variation in cases, chambers and bores than most.

Bores in good condition seem to range from.352" to .358".

Some chambers will not accept cases larger than .464" at the web others will accept them at .468".

All the British proofs I have seen photos of have 2.22" case length, but mine will not accept this length, so I trim to 2.216"

Interestingly, there is also a range of British proofs on 9x56MS rifles, I have seen photos of the following:
- 31gns cordite x 245 max (one in South Africa and also mine)
- 35gns cordite x 250 max
- 35gns cordite x 232 max and
- 46.5gns NC x 245 max.

Also, even reputable reference books show a variation in cartridge dimensions and bullet diameters.

What is a MUST with rifles in this calibre, is to slug the bore and test different cases until you find ones that fit. I had to wrap the cases at one spot with cello tape, lube then FLS to get them to fit, once fired they were fine.

What is critical is the loaded neck OD, make sure that a bullet will slip fit into a fired case. Mine must be < .380".

Challenges make life interesting and the 9x56MS is certainly an interesting cartridge.

Looking forward to copies of those articles.

Fraser


lancaster
(.470 member)
01/11/24 04:25 AM
Re: 9 x56 MS

the very best basic case for making all of them is Norma 9,3x57 and not only because the diameter is similar and the brass is of very good quality. if not changed lately the Norma brass measure +/- 11,80 mm on the base when other basic brass goes up to 11,95 mm and need a little work on the lathe to make it fit.


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