| LRF |
| (.333 member) |
| 01/04/20 11:23 PM |
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Researching stock numbers seen on commercial M-S rifles
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On commercial Mannlicher Schoenauer sporting rifles from England/Europe, many times there will be a number stamped into the buttstock, often along the toeline of the stock. Here is an example of a description from a Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle that sold at auction over the weekend: ".... the toeline of the stock is stamped ''Y5315'' just to the rear of the factory sling swivel." The number "Y5315" is not the same as the rifle serial number.
In addition on a recent purchase of mine, a M1910 M-S rifle in .375 Rimless Express with London proof marks is a serial type number stamped on the toeline near the rear swivel. This number, again, does not match the action serial number.
The question is does anyone know what these added numbers were for? I have heard some conjecture on the subject that these rifles were part of the India trade, however, I want to know if anyone could add to determining an answer concerning this number. Thanks in advance
| Vladymere |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/04/20 02:53 PM |
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Re: Researching stock numbers seen on commercial M-S rifles
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I'm unfamiliar with this numbering. I have a 1903, 1905, 1908 and 1910 and none of these have numbering as you described. Mine are all Austrian proofed with one that has additional German proofing. Perhaps this makes a difference?
Vlad
| LRF |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/04/20 02:01 AM |
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Re: Researching stock numbers seen on commercial M-S rifles
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Thanks Vlad for your input.
Here is a little more description for the first gun I mentioned above, that was sold at auction:
Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1905 Carbine, 9x56MS, The barrel was also marked, "V L & D New York". The description doesn't mention anything concerning its proof marks.
My rifle was imported from England before I bought it from the dealer. The numbers on my stock are quite worn and not totally legible. So they have been on the stock for a long time. The underside of the action along with the proof marks is the number 8839.20, which I have been led to understand this is the 8839th gun proofed at the London house during the year 1920. If I am incorrect with that understanding please offer your correction.
| LRF |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/04/20 02:51 AM |
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Re: Researching stock numbers seen on commercial M-S rifles
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Quote:
The underside of the action along with the proof marks is the number 8839.20, which I have been led to understand this is the 8839th gun proofed at the London house during the year 1920. If I am incorrect with that understanding please offer your correction.
As the rifle shows both original Austrian proof marks and then the London proof marks I believe the 8839.20 was the Austrian date and not London as I had stated above
| Rothhammer1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 03/04/20 05:54 PM |
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Re: Researching stock numbers seen on commercial M-S rifles
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Quote:Quote:
The underside of the action along with the proof marks is the number 8839.20, which I have been led to understand this is the 8839th gun proofed at the London house during the year 1920. If I am incorrect with that understanding please offer your correction.
As the rifle shows both original Austrian proof marks and then the London proof marks I believe the 8839.20 was the Austrian date and not London as I had stated above
The 8839.20 would, indeed, be the Austrian proof date and sequence.
On the example below, with only Austrian proofs / stamps visible, 411.08 indicates the 411th arm to be proofed at Vienna in 1908, 4143 the Steyr serial number. 'NPv' on the receiver is the second (nitro, or smokeless) proof from Vienna, the stylized script 'EV' on underside of barrel is the first Vienna proof. The '3001' on barrel is, I've been told, a proofhouse registry number, 'C6.5' indicates an M1903 (6.5mm), and barely visible at the bottom is a '-15' on receiver and corresponding '+15' on barrel which match barrel to chamber for proper depth.
What style are your MS? Are they rifle, stutzen (full stocked carbine), or takedown? My 1922 proofed M1910 Takedown Model has the 'toeline stock number' 62488 deeply impressed in the same location as yours, just aft of the rear swivel. That number bears no apparent relevance to the Steyr serial number or to any other number on the rifle though the serial number, 7162, is impressed in the stock underneath the barrel just fore of magazine opening. It is also Austrian and British proofed. My Grandfather purchased it 'second hand' in Ceylon (the island just under India, now called Sri Lanka) circa 1932.
Images from 1939 Stoeger catalog:
Stoeger did not list the MS by the Steyr model numbers of M1903 through M1924, all of which were cartridge specific. All M1903 were originally chambered for 6.5X54, M1905 were 9X56, M1908 - 8X56, and M1910 were 9.5X57 - known to the British trade as .375 Nitro Express Rimless. The aforementioned were MS proprietary cartridges. The M1924 had a longer receiver and magazine to accept the 'U.S. Cartridge of 1906', or .30-'06, and production continued on that platform in various calibers with what collectors tend to call 'M1925' though Steyr had no such designation of which I am aware.
Stoeger in 1939 listed the '03 through '24 calibers under 'Carbine' along with a 7X57, their 'High Velocity offerings correspond to the M1924 (.30-'06) and 'M1925' (7X64, 8X60, 9.3X62, 10.75X68).
| LRF |
| (.333 member) |
| 04/04/20 03:44 AM |
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Re: Researching stock numbers seen on commercial M-S rifles
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Thanks for the response and a lot of good info provided.
My M1910 is a Half-stock ~20" barrel so I would call it a carbine. All the proofs are similar to as you explain. The London are interesting of course as it specifically says the 43 grain cordite and 270 grain bullet and .375 EX. The stock has the serial number of the action under the front receiver ring. There is a +2 and -2 similar to your "15".
With your gun being involved in the known Ceylon trade it certain adds credence to the thoughts that the impressed stock toeline numbers had something to do with guns sent to India/Ceylon.
If anyone else has information they could led please comment. Thanks to all
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/04/20 05:25 AM |
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Re: Researching stock numbers seen on commercial M-S rifles
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Not a Mannlicher - Schoenauer, but my English made, London proofed noname Mauser on a DWM Action in .375 Rimless NE aka 9.5x57 M-S has such a number stamp under the stock. Afaik the British administration of some colonies, f.i. Kenya, used to mark a licence or registration number this way one time or another.