(.400 member)

09/10/17 03:25 PM

Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

G'day, Gents.

For general edification, I have carefully deconstructed an original 1939 Stoeger Catalog with the purpose of sharing images on informative 'sites such as NitroExpressForums. These will be at 400dpi, I also have them stored at 1200dpi.

A. F. Stoeger was a major firearms and sporting goods retailer in the United States by 1939. Their 'Catalog No. 31' was titled as the 'New York World's Fair Jubilee Issue'.

Sporting life was good in the U.S., with vast untamed acreage (many hectares) and the only significant regulations at the time being the National Firearms Act of 1934 (required special Federal licensing and tax stamps to possess fully automatic firearms - written primarily to regulate the Thompson SMG) and the newly implemented act of 1938 which required licensing for dealers of firearms and defined persons who would be denied purchase of firearms (felons, et. al.).

Those who weren't working for Capone, Dillinger, or on a similar 'career path' were generally unaffected.

What would become the Second World War was but distant news from faraway lands and was of concern mostly to politicians, Lend Lease profiteers and to veterans of 'The War to End All Wars' who had dared hope they'd put an end to such nonsense.

First, credit where due, the catalog covers and introductory pages.

[image]http://nitroexpress.info/ezine/CptCurlFiles/Rothhammer1/Stoeger1939Cat/[/image]

Hope you enjoy, more to come.

(.400 member)

09/10/17 04:37 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Now, the 'meat and spuds.'

Pages 50, 51, and 52 of the 1939 Stoeger.

These were the offerings to Stoeger customers of Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles, carbines, parts, and custom build options.

While drooling over the prices listed (try to keep the keyboard dry), bear in mind that according to usinflationcalculator.com , one dollar (USD) in 1939 would have the comparative value of $17.66 in 2017 (as of October 08), thus a $175.00 1939 'off the rack' MS would be $3,091.37 in late 2017 U.S. dollars.

The next insallments will be detail shots of pages 50 and 51.

If anyone would like different crops, closeups, and such from any of the pages I post, let me know through this thread or by PM and I will gladly accommodate.

Greetings from the redwoods,
Brian Rothhammer

(.400 member)

09/10/17 05:21 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Here are detail views of page 50.

They liked the 7X57 so much they listed it twice?

Enjoy!

(.400 member)

09/10/17 06:20 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

And of page 51;

Note the references of 6.7 for the 1903 and 8.2 for the 1908. There are varying dimensions attributed to the MS proprietary cartridges throughout the '39 Stoeger, as you'll see when I get to cartridges and more ballistic data.

(.470 member)

10/10/17 04:45 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

thank you very much, this is our collective heritage

(.400 member)

10/10/17 09:06 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

thank you very much, this is our collective heritage

Thank you, sir.

This is the most appropriate 'site that I know of to post these, NitroExpress having the Mannlicher Schoenauer specific forum and so many knowledgeable enthusiasts here sharing their experience with others.

I'll post more this evening (West Coast U.S. time), either sights and scopes, cartridges and ballistics, or both.

Meanwhile, here's a pic of my Grandfather and his .375 Nitro Express Rimless M1910 Takedown. He was a buyer of rubber for Goodyear at the time, stationed at Colombo, Ceylon.

I have the rifle and its original fitted case with the leopard's claws therein.

'Johnny's Cat' - John F. Easton, center, with M1910 Takedown

Brian Rothhammer

(.375 member)

10/10/17 10:06 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Wonderful, wonderful stuff...thank you

(.400 member)

10/10/17 10:38 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

Wonderful, wonderful stuff...thank you

Glad you like it.

Before moving onward, here's the parts page together with a detail shot of the parts - by - the number.

Enjoy,
BR.

(.400 member)

10/10/17 12:35 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

It occurred to me that these should be toward the front end of things.

Page 64 of the 1939 Stoeger catalog and detail images thereof.

Behold, the entry explaining 'foreign' proofs to we bloody Yanks, a 'snapshot' of European proofs of the pre World War Two era.

Vienna proofs, first proof and Nitro (Smokeless) proof, as commonly found on 'pre war' MS rifles and carbines

(.400 member)

10/10/17 02:48 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Cartridges for the Mannlicher Schoenauer
from the 1939 Stoeger catalog;

I must begin with the DWM offerings of page 275 (and detail)...

DWM cartridges for the M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910;

6.5mm from Remington, Winchester, Western, Peters, page 260;

8mm from page 263;

Page 277, the Kynoch offerings include a .375 H&H Rimless Nitro Express;

The 'strippers' are offered on page 276;

Along with these;

That leaves these fun little bits from page 215. I wouldn't mind having a few in 9.5X57 MS.

I hope you all enjoy these, there will be more to come.

BR.

(.400 member)

10/10/17 08:12 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Ballistics of MS Cartridges from 1939 Stoeger Catalog

First, the 'Constructive Ballistics from page 51;

Note that the M1903 cartridge is referred to as 6.3mm (not 6.5) and the M1908 is listed as 8.2mm (not 8mm). The .30-'06, 7X64 and 8X60 are 'High Velocity' rounds for M1924 and 'M1925' actions.

DWM ballistics - Page 292 has the '6.5X53 M-Sch.'(DWM 477) and the '8X56 M-Sch.'(DWM 528);

Page 293 has the '9X56 M-Sch' (DWM 491E), '9.5X57 M-Sch' (DWM 531) as well as a 'Closed Season' load for DWM 477 ('6.5X53 M-Sch')

English Ballistics from pages 288 - 289.

Detail of MS cartridges;

Note that 9.5X57 MS and .375 RNE have different powder charges - 43 grains cordite for the Brit.(as the barrel of my 1922 proofed M1910 is marked), 45 grains for the Mannlicher Schoenauer 9.5 load.

An interesting note regarding 8mm cartridge (non) interchange from page 291;

Detail fron page 263;

And regarding berdan primers for DWM from page 299;

With hope that all will be enjoyed and shared,
Wado.

BR.

(.333 member)

11/10/17 02:27 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Thank you very much for posting this.

I can't imagine having a picture of my grandfather with a leopard and the gun he used. Priceless!
I hope you will do another thread sometime with more on that gun.

(.470 member)

11/10/17 04:19 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

first time I see the 11,2x60 Schueler offered in an american catalog

(.375 member)

11/10/17 04:34 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Rothhammer, thank you very much for posting; all much interesting and helpful.
Best regards.
Louis

(.375 member)

11/10/17 11:26 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Keep it coming!!

Thank you

(.400 member)

11/10/17 12:27 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

Thank you very much for posting this.

I can't imagine having a picture of my grandfather with a leopard and the gun he used. Priceless!
I hope you will do another thread sometime with more on that gun.

I'm glad you liked that one. I was actually a bit worried that is was self- serving of me to post it here.

My sister has the photo albums of my Grandparents' times in Ceylon (where my Mother was born in '31) and Singapore. They left before the new, heavily armed, Japanese Imperial neighbors moved in.

I believe this is the only photo showing the Mannlicher (I had some copies made decades ago), but their other photos offer a remarkable view of life at that time and place for a 'foreign' (U.S.) executive and his young family in the waning years of the British Empire.

One of my favorites is a group shot of some very happy looking men standing between a couple of beer kegs on the grounds of the Swiss Club with their very fasionably dressed British wives lined up neatly behind them in deck chairs. There are cricket bats laid aside and a couple of the men are holding baseball accoutrements as my Grandfather (grinning widely) had just taught them to play the 'all American' game. In stark contrast to the men's expressions are the dour, unapproving stares of the ladies as if to say, "this simply isn't cricket, now, is it?"

When the National Geographic writers and photographers came to Singapore to do a story about 'war jitters' and preparations (who would dare attack 'fortress Singapore'?), they were directed to the Swiss Colony and to the 'few Americans over there'. My Mother and Uncle (born in Singapore 9 years earlier) acted as guides to the photogs.

For any of you with National Geographic collections, my mother is in the July, 1940 issue in a full page photo titled "The lady and the tiger in Singapore". She is pointing at a tiger pelt being offered for sale at an open marketplace. The caption reads, in part, "...the pigtailed lass is the daughter of an American here who buys rubber for Goodyear."

That photo is loaded in to a now defunct computer, a copy of the magazine is around here somewhere.

(.400 member)

11/10/17 12:32 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

first time I see the 11,2x60 Schueler offered in an american catalog

Glad to be of service.

If anyone is interested in other detail shots or images of anything that is found in the '39 Stoeger catalog, please let me know. I already see some posts to the Mauser forum in the future.

If anyone wants to 'archive' these photos, I'd suggest downloading them before they turn into generic cat photos, as one has already done (I'll fix it now).

BR.

(.400 member)

11/10/17 04:16 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

Rothhammer, thank you very much for posting; all much interesting and helpful.
Best regards.
Louis

De rien, Louis!

(.400 member)

11/10/17 04:50 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

MS Optics in the 1939 Stoeger

Here are some nifty sights and a few scopes / mounts;

For starters, a couple of Lyman 'peep sights' from page 219;

Detail views;

Then this lovely Parker Hale number from page 235;

And her 'close up';

Pages 229, 230 offer a couple of bead replacements;

A sidemount and some scopes from page 238;

And some Zeiss offerings from page 241;

There are also pages with images of 'scopes from Ajack, Feckler, Lyman, Mossberg, Noske, Unertl, and Weaver.
If anyone would like to see those pages posted, let me know and I'll scan and post them.

Enjoy,
BR.

(.400 member)

11/10/17 05:36 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

'English' cases from 1939 Stoeger Catalog

Here is page 199 of the '39 Stoeger and detail views;

Detail views;

"Now, who can argue with that?"
Blazing Saddles, 1972

Wado,
BR.

(.275 member)

13/10/17 04:33 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

I have a set of Stoeger catalogs dating from 1914 (the first issue I believe) up through WWII and into the 1960s.
A wonderful research source.
I would trade the entire set for a clean MS Takedown calibre not too important.
rtenenbown@me.com
South Texas

(.470 member)

13/10/17 05:11 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

thank you for your pm Rothhammer, this is exactly DWM catalog data because DWM was the only firm making the 11,2x60 Schueler cartridge.

some things looking only funny because of the strange context like the Zeiss scope advertisement

no doubt taken from original Zeiss documents it show a brave roebuck instead of a whitetail. wonder what they were thinking about this animal in montana or virginia than.

(.400 member)

13/10/17 01:13 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

it show a brave roebuck instead of a whitetail. wonder what they were thinking about this animal in montana or virginia than.

Anybody's guess, that.

The Roebuck more familiar to the average Montanan would likely be the 'Wish Book', or Sears and Roebuck Catalog. Not only did its pages offer everything from handkerchiefs and pocketwatches to carriages and pre fabricated homes to those in the rural United States, but 'back issues' were quite useful in outhouses from coast to coast.

They also, of course, offered firearms and accoutrements for sale.

Note: 'G.A.R.' was the Grand Army of the Republic, an organization of Union veterans of the U.S. 'War Between the States' of 1861 - 65, a.k.a. 'Civil War' or 'War of the Rebellion'. To members of the U.C.V. (United Confederate Veterans) it was oft referred to as 'The Yankee Invasion".

BR.

(.400 member)

13/10/17 01:34 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

I have a set of Stoeger catalogs dating from 1914 (the first issue I believe) up through WWII and into the 1960s.
A wonderful research source.
I would trade the entire set for a clean MS Takedown calibre not too important.
rtenenbown@me.com
South Texas

I'll bet you would

. Mine is not for sale or trade as long as I'm breathing, and i'd not have much use for the Stoegers in the great beyond (though there would be a lot of time for reading, I suppose).

The old Stoegers (and other catalogs) are, indeed, a fine resource. I have only the 1939. I bought one on Ebay to 'deconstruct' and it was just too nice to peel apart so I bought another (at a rather good price) from which I carefully seperated the cover, worked the staples out, and flat scanned the Mannlicher relevant and some other images.

I wonder, when you could get to them, if you would be able to tell us when the Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles and carbines were first listed in the Stoeger (for me, the M1910 is of particular interest)? What was the price for an M1910 in 1922 (the year mine was proofed)?

I 'zeroed in' on the 1939 after having seen some rough images of the '39 and '40 pages 50 and 51, and figured it would offer the best 'snapshot' of what was available at the culmination of the 'classic' (pre WW2) Mannlicher Schoenauer production.

For those interested, I have shared closer views of the 1935 DWM and English Cartridge ballistics charts from the '39 Stoeger to the General Reloading and Gunsmithing Forum.

Enjoy,
BR.

(.470 member)

13/10/17 02:30 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

" 'back issues' were quite useful in outhouses from coast to coast "

(.375 member)

14/10/17 01:42 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

WOW!!!!! What a post. Thank you, thank you for this "time machine".
Robert

(.400 member)

17/10/17 03:36 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

" 'back issues' were quite useful in outhouses from coast to coast "

This guy agrees

That's me clowning for the local newspaper last year.

BR.

(.400 member)

17/10/17 04:28 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

WOW!!!!! What a post. Thank you, thank you for this "time machine".
Robert

Thank you, glad to share.

BR.

(.275 member)

18/10/17 03:16 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Rothhammer:
I'll try to look it up for you over the weekend.
Best regards

(.300 member)

18/10/17 10:57 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Great reading. Interesting to note that the Mannlicher rifle was $160, whilst the Zeiss Scope was $60 to $80 - about 50% of the cost.

A lot of scopes now cost pretty much the same or substantially more than the rifle they sit upon.

(.400 member)

27/10/17 08:53 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

I hope everyone who wished to got a chance to enjoy and / or download the images I had posted, as I will not be paying $400.00 to Photobucket for the privilege of reposting them.

It's been fun,
Brian Rothhammer.

Administrator

(.700 member)

27/10/17 09:57 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Message sent to Rothhammer for copies of the images. If obtained I will load them back up on all of this catalogue etc threads.

(.400 member)

28/10/17 04:22 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

Message sent to Rothhammer for copies of the images. If obtained I will load them back up on all of this catalogue etc threads.

Thank you, John (NitroX)!

Your prompt reply and offer to re install the images is greatly appreciated. You have reinforced my opinion that NitroExpressForum is a first rate website and a credit to the worldwide community of those who appreciate finely crafted firearms.

To all;
John and I will be working to restore the images deleted by Photobucket and, over time, to create an archive of those and other pages of the 1939 Stoeger catalog for the enjoyment and edification of NitroExpress members and visitors.

Thank you (wado),
Brian Rothhammer

Administrator

(.700 member)

29/10/17 02:17 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Thanks. Loaded up your first two images. Send to me, or upload onto a drop box all the other images, and we will see about getting them in on NE as a permanent archive.

(.416 member)

29/10/17 07:52 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

Your prompt reply and offer to re install the images is greatly appreciated. You have reinforced my opinion that NitroExpressForum is a first rate website and a credit to the worldwide community of those who appreciate finely crafted firearms.

To all;
John and I will be working to restore the images deleted by Photobucket and, over time, to create an archive of those and other pages of the 1939 Stoeger catalog for the enjoyment and edification of NitroExpress members and visitors.

Thank you (wado),
Brian Rothhammer

I couldn't agree more Rothhammer!
We all have some information that others are wanting, if we are willing to share as in your case (with MS rifles of which I know zip) here then we are all so much better off!
And a special thanks must be especially given to John for being so kind & able to do so for us.
Thank you gentlemen

93x64mm

(.275 member)

30/10/17 08:38 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Rothammer:
Sorry but my catalogs are stored offsite.
I've had no time to research your issue.
Best regards

Administrator

(.700 member)

05/11/17 03:48 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Seeing the photobucket images were viewable, I went and copied them, took hours !!! Each photo had to indifivually opened and the image view viewed. At least three clicks. Then saved. Then from three to eight clicks to get back to where I started. Then the views edited for spaces and decimal points or full stops. Which won't work on a linux server which NE's ISP uses. Then upload them. Then edit each and every image web address on every post. I first copy the whole thing, then over write the new server address. Then copy the image file name, and then again have to edit out all the spaces and full stops. 135 images and several hours.

Think I got them all. All the images at the moment should be duplicated. Will go and delete the crapbucket links later.

(.400 member)

09/11/17 05:57 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Quote:

Seeing the photobucket images were viewable, I went and copied them, took hours !!!

Think I got them all. All the images at the moment should be duplicated. Will go and delete the crapbucket links later.

Thank you so much, John.

I appreciate the time (and mind numbing redundancy) involved, believe me. I had some time invested in the original postings as well.

I haven't been available to address this for the past week (had family over) - lucky for me! I hadn't really intended to dump all of that work in your lap.

What I will do now is to follow your latest instruction to transmit higher resolution (1200 dpi) images of the 1939 Stoeger to you for the NitroExpress archive. I have some scanned already, I'll crop them to the page borders and pass them along as full page scans. I'll make scans of those that I haven't yet and over time the entire 500 plus page catalog will be thus preserved.

On behalf of myself and all others who appreciate this 'site, Thanks again to John 'NitroX'.

BR.

(.375 member)

10/11/17 09:13 AM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

Thank you everyone for all the hard work.....

Administrator

(.700 member)

10/11/17 08:15 PM

Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer in the 1939 Stoeger catalog

I don't understand the "long drop" bucket also known a photo bucket.

Some time ago, all the images on it were transplanted with the "we hate our users" images.

Then when I copied all the images, it was because I could view and access the images again.

Earlier today, I saw the "we hate our users" images again.

But now I can see the actual images again????

My guess is the views and hit rates/ visits at crapbucket have crashed since they overloaded the site with excessive advertising, which is very intrusive, and since they blocked at the images from being shared and even viewed on site.

Really really stupid people running that site.

My guess is the click rate has crashed and now they periodically allow the images to be viewed and shared from non viewing accounts. To try to get people to pay their ridiculous fees.

BTW for anyone slightly net and internet savvy, buy your own ISP server space. Maybe even a domain. Server space is very cheap, and you get oodles of space, your own ftp access (ie uploading sw), probably an automated ftp facility as well. No need to pay at least 4x the amount to photobucket.

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