(.224 member)

04/10/17 08:48 AM

William Evans .256 MS

A few weeks ago, I was offered a nice rifle from an acquaintance of mine who also fancy older rifles. He had to raise some money fast so he would like to sell a few rifles. I bought one of him, a nice British Mannlicher Schoenauer made by William Evans. Caliber is .256 Mannlicher Schoenauer. A previous owner contacted William Evans in London and received a lot of interesting details. Apparently completed on the 21st February 1929. The customer was Viscount Knollys for Viscountess Knollys. The rifle was delivered in a nice W. Evans canvas case. Please also note the Evans “Turnover” foresight. The rifle is in very good condition and looks very good with the very nice wood. The red rubber butplate has to be a later replacement because it really doesn’t fit the rifle! Enjoy!

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(.224 member)

04/10/17 08:55 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

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(.375 member)

04/10/17 09:09 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

WOW !!!!!!! What a beautiful old rifle.
Congrats
Robert

(.416 member)

04/10/17 10:57 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

What a marvellous example!
Truly exceptional, and something a bit 'unique' in that uncommon front sight.
Establishing the provenance must be very satisfying. Congratulations!

(.400 member)

04/10/17 11:02 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

Super nice rifle, very stylish and elegant, lovely stock. Really well done.

Waidmannsheil.

(.400 member)

04/10/17 06:11 PM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

That's quite some front sight!

BR.

(.300 member)

04/10/17 10:33 PM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

That is indeed quite some front sight - could you post some photos of the various beads stood up, please?
The rubber butt plate also shows the characteristic signs of being stood up in a corner ready for use, perhaps between 1939 and 1945? I bought a 1950s Savage 99 that had been in southern Africa, and its recoil pad looked just the same.

Do you have a record of how much the Viscount paid for this rifle? I might guess about 60 guineas or so.

(.333 member)

05/10/17 12:42 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

Wonderful! Thanks for posting.

(.375 member)

05/10/17 03:29 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

Kammerherren, congratulations on your much stylish rifle.
Louis

(.416 member)

05/10/17 07:22 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

Quote:

Super nice rifle, very stylish and elegant, lovely stock. Really well done.

Waidmannsheil.

Not wrong there mate!
Wonderful old piece...now to get her shooting again!

(.224 member)

05/10/17 08:56 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

Thank you for the kind words, it really is a nice rifle. I will provide some more pictures of the front sight, no problem at all. I just need a few days, going moose hunting in 7 hours! Need some sleep now. I know exactly the final price, they paid 43,7Ł in total. I will scan the document with all the details. Description, prices etc.

(.400 member)

05/10/17 11:08 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

What is the length of the barrel ?

Waidmannsheil.

(.224 member)

06/10/17 07:33 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

I took some more pictures, I hope this is what you wanted HistoricBore. I had another look at the rubber but plate and I agree, it looks more damaged from storage than not being original. The barrel was ordered at 24", and it still measures 24".

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(.300 member)

06/10/17 09:02 AM

Re: William Evans .256 MS

A price of 43 pounds and seven shillings back in 1929 converts to GBP 2,527 today, or Euros 2,860, or US$ 3,300, which feels about right really. That is a great front sight, with the ivory bead for night-time tiger hunting. Thank you for adding the extra photographs!

I hope there are not so many tigers in Norway these days.

HB

(.400 member)

23/02/20 03:10 AM

update - William Evans .256 MS

Just aquired this William Evans Steyr 1893 in 6.5x53R Dutch (.256 Mannlicher).

Serial number is circa 1898; I have an email in to Wm. Evans to see if they can provide anything more on this rifle.

26" barrel, 4 groove and 1:7.9” (200mm) twist. Weighs 7lb 7oz with 14 1/2" LOP. Horn forend tip and Horn grip cap with steel buttplate.
Interestingly the only proof marks are pre-1904 Birmingham proof and there is no calibre marking or bore dimension mark anywhere. There are no Austrian or German proof marks.....only a few production and inspectors marks on the barrel under the wood.

Barrel is engraved "Sighted & Shot By William Evans (From Purdey's) 63 Pall Mall St. James London"

The steel crosspin just above the trigger is actually an unusual modification that blocks the forward travel of the military 2 stage trigger, eliminating the the 1st stage, and makes it a single stage trigger. Doubt it originally left Evans with this rather un-asthetic looking bit of gunsmithing but it does work well.

Waiting for Winter weather to cooperate and 2+ feet of snow to melt before I can take it out to shoot at targets.
-Mike

(.700 member)

23/02/20 05:01 AM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

VERY nice, Mike.

(.375 member)

23/02/20 06:58 AM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

Congratulations on your very nice rifle, Mike. I also own a Mannlicher Schoenauer M 1908 that displays only British proof marks and no Austrian one at all; maybe should we consider this as normal for that period?
Louis

(.400 member)

23/02/20 07:19 AM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

Quote:

Congratulations on your very nice rifle, Mike. I also own a Mannlicher Schoenauer M 1908 that displays only British proof marks and no Austrian one at all; maybe should we consider this as normal for that period?
Louis

Bonjour Louis,
I am wondering if it is possible that the Steyr action parts and barrel were brought into England as separate unproved parts and then assembled into a complete rifle? This could account for no proof marks other than British, and only a few Austrian production inspection marks.
- Mike

(.400 member)

23/02/20 10:45 AM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

Well done Mike, that is a beauty of a rifle. I love the William Evans rifles, always something special I recon. I have three 256 Mannlichers and I love them, one of the nicest rifles to own, at least IMO.

One is a Jeffery and has proof marks that are similar but there are additional marks and the "Nitro Proofed" is upside down like most other British proof marks.

Another is a trade rifle but made by Gibbs and has the same markings as yours except the "Nitro Proofed" is further down the barrel but the right way up.

The third rifle is also a trade rifle and very similar to yours although the sights are different and the grip is rounded with no grip cap. The proof marks however are identical to yours with exactly the same marks and in exactly the same position as yours.

Great rifle, I would love to see some more photos especially of the sights and the grip cap etc.

Matt.

(.400 member)

23/02/20 01:21 PM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

Matt,
Will get some pictures of details posted tomorrow.......A bit too much Saturday night whisky in me to do it tonight.
- Mike

(.400 member)

23/02/20 03:41 PM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

No Worries Mike, when you are ready.

Matt.

(.375 member)

23/02/20 06:45 PM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

Mike, I'll post some photos of the markings on my MS once back home as I am currently travelling, in the meantime you may already have a look at that old post as it also includes some info about late XIX / early XX centuries Austrian rifles bearing only British proof marks
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post289862
Another option, not yet discussed, may be that Steyr sold at that time unproofed barrelled actions to some British rifle makers?
Louis

Administrator

(.700 member)

23/02/20 09:16 PM

Re: update - William Evans .256 MS

Lovely rifle. A good model for my, oneday, Dutch Steyr project.

(.400 member)

24/02/20 07:05 AM

update - William Evans

Some detail pictures:

(.375 member)

24/02/20 04:41 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Lovely rifles rifles...both, congratulations!!

Best
Eric

(.300 member)

25/02/20 12:02 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Oh yes they are beautiful rifles!

(.400 member)

25/02/20 07:02 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Quote:

The customer was Viscount Knollys for Viscountess Knollys.

Probably Edward Knollys, 2nd Viscount Knollys (1895–1966), see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscount_Knollys

(.416 member)

25/02/20 11:56 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Quote:

Lovely rifles rifles...both, congratulations!!

Best
Eric

Ditto!

(.400 member)

28/02/20 02:45 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Initial word back from William Evans gunroom; my rifle was ordered on August 7th, 1900 and delivered on November 18th, 1900.
The research results and letter are in the Post to me as of today. Will add details here when I receive them.
- Mike

(.400 member)

05/03/20 06:32 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Thanks for the extra photos Mike. The front sight and base is exactly the same as on my Gibbs Rifle.

Looking forward to hear about any information from William Evans themselves.

Matt.

(.400 member)

05/03/20 07:30 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Quote:

Thanks for the extra photos Mike. The front sight and base is exactly the same as on my Gibbs Rifle.

Looking forward to hear about any information from William Evans themselves.

Matt.

Matt,
I am now thinking that Evans, and possibly Gibbs, as well as others may well have sourced their Mannlichers “from the trade”.
I have a reproduction of the Webley & Scott Ltd. 1914 catalog, and my Wm. Evans is a dead nuts look alike for the 6.5 Mannlicher Rifle on page 23. The sights, the horn forend tip, the checkering pattern all a match.

So ordered the rifle in, ”sighted and shot” to be sure of regulation and function, then engraved the company name and details at least on the lesser grade rifles?
- Mike

(.400 member)

05/03/20 08:03 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Mike, Gibbs themselves were actually a large supplier of Mannlicher rifles to the trade where they did all the work. Some were marked with their own name and many others with another retailers name or no name at all like my one, which is definitely a Gibbs as it not only looks like one but has the B suffix in the serial number.

Apparently Gibbs supplied more of these Mannlicher rifles in various forms as dictated by customers to the trade than anybody else. This can also be seen by the fact that most of these rifles if they have a makers name on the barrel will say "Shot and Regulated by .....) as that is often all they did.

Matt.

(.400 member)

05/03/20 09:00 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Matt, interesting information, thanks.

I based my supposition (guess) on the Webley & Scott Ltd. catalog, as well as a writeup on a Gibbs double rifle by Cal Pappas. Gibbs said that their customers rifle was sourced "in the white" from Webley & Scott then the necessary upgrades were done by Gibbs to bring it to their desired level of finish before delivery to their customer.

thanks for the clarification.
- Mike

(.400 member)

05/03/20 11:10 AM

Re: update - William Evans

I actually wrung up the current owner of Gibbs and spoke to Mark Crudington who is a gentleman and very generous with his time. He explained to me in some detail how Gibbs built the rifles and in the case of mine it was as follows.

A complete military action was used with the barrel removed and shortened to 26" and re-profiled to a sporter pattern. A new front sight base and sight was fitted and the rear sights were removed from the original sight base, a new base machined and fitted and the rear sights sporterised with yard numbers and platinum lines, then refitted to the new base. The trigger was converted to s single stage and the original bolt handle bent down. A complete new pre-inletted stock was supplied and then finish inletted by hand. The entire stock was finish shaped and checkered by hand, in my case flat top checkering. The rifle was then shot and sighted followed by finishing the stock and plishing and bluing of the metal.

Obviously there were many variances according to customers requirements but the majority of plain grade Mannlichers sold as a Gibbs as well as those sold to the trade followed what happened above.

Some rifles were rebarreled if the buyer wanted a slightly different length or profile, or a different cartridge. Stocks could also be completely custom made as could the sights but most were as described which is probably why there are so many with similar features and the same barrel length.

At least that's what I was told by Mark.

Matt.

(.400 member)

05/03/20 01:13 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Matt,
Indeed an interesting bit of information, thanks for sharing. Now wondering if my Steyr Mannlicher maybe came to Wm. Evans via Gibbs? Still, it matches the Webley & Scott catalog to a T.
We shall see what info Evans provides.
- Mike

(.375 member)

07/03/20 08:20 AM

Re: update - William Evans

i have 3 of these very underrated rifles 2 gibbs and an army/navy ,, I'm hoping dorleac uses one for a build at some point ...paul

(.400 member)

07/03/20 12:10 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Info from William Evans for my 6.5x53R/ .256 Mannlicher:

This is the A. F. Pease mentioned on the ledger:\:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Arthur_Pease,_1st_Baronet

Rifle made by Richard Ellis via Webley & Scott, Ltd.

(.700 member)

07/03/20 12:35 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Quote:

i have 3 of these very underrated rifles 2 gibbs and an army/navy ,, I'm hoping dorleac uses one for a build at some point ...paul

Oh BOY - that will be special!

(.700 member)

07/03/20 12:36 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Mike - sure nice to have the paper work!!!!!!

(.375 member)

08/03/20 10:14 AM

Re: update - William Evans

i was at i.m. crudgington in bath in 1996 the old man told m the building took shell in ww2 so not many gibbs records but comfirmed my 2 rifles as gibbs by what i told him and the B before the serial numbers,,in his shop he was building a 505 for someone in the mideast ,he had it on the bench in the back room still in the white stage he was altering a standard action ....paul

(.400 member)

08/03/20 08:46 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Great to see the copies of the ledger and all the information. Always very interesting and that's part of what makes collecting fun. I have a similar ledger page for my Jeffery rifle.

One question though, how did you establish that the rifle was sourced from Webley & Scott. I tried to find it in the paperwork that you have posted but couldn't see it. Obviously I have missed something.

I would have to say though that the bolt handle is definitely different to the one in the W&S 1914 catalogue. Your one looks exactly the same as my Gibbs as does the front sight and base.

I must say that all this investigating and surmising is great fun.

Matt.

(.400 member)

09/03/20 01:42 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Quote:

Great to ......
One question though, how did you establish that the rifle was sourced from Webley & Scott. I tried to find it in the paperwork that you have posted but couldn't see it. Obviously I have missed something........
Matt.

Actually drew the conclusion by the fact that the ledger shows as coming from Ellis in July 1899; but the actual Richard Ellis & Son was acquired (or merged) with W&C Scott in 1897 to become Webley & Scott Revolver and Arms, Ltd.
There is little information extant about Ellis,
I infer that his production after 1897 might have been his as a semi-independent separate workshop part of Webley & Scott?

May be that the bolt knobs were left as military in 1899, but altered to Brit sporting style by 1914?
- Mike

(.400 member)

10/03/20 07:10 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Mike, that makes sense, and from other investigating that I have done it seems that W&S were the next biggest supplier of Mannlicher rifles to the trade as well as under their own name. Understandable as well as W&S were one of if not the biggest supplier of guns and rifles to the trade to be re-branded or left unbranded.

In any case your rifle is a beauty.

I am looking at a William Evans Mannlicher myself soon and if purchased I will write to WE and see what information they have on that rifle. Will be interesting.

Matt.

(.400 member)

10/03/20 07:44 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Matt, if you manage to acquire the Wm. Evans be sure to post it up when you can.
As an aside, George Davison of the Wm. Evans gun room that helped me is a delight to talk to by telephone if you get the chance.
- Mike

(.300 member)

10/03/20 11:46 AM

Re: update - William Evans

"Another option, not yet discussed, may be that Steyr sold at that time unproofed barrelled actions to some British rifle makers?"

Though possible I expect that if the action is remove from the wood Austrian proof marks will be found.

Vlad

(.400 member)

10/03/20 01:40 PM

Re: update - William Evans

Quote:

"Another option, not yet discussed, may be that Steyr sold at that time unproofed barrelled actions to some British rifle makers?"

Though possible I expect that if the action is remove from the wood Austrian proof marks will be found.

Vlad

As mentioned above on one of my posts......out of the wood, no Austrian proof marks at all on mine. Merely a few inspectors stamps.
- Mike

(.400 member)

24/04/20 06:01 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Just to get something relevant back to the top of the Mannlicher Forum.......

- Mike

(.470 member)

24/04/20 01:44 PM

Re: update - William Evans

(.224 member)

16/07/20 08:58 AM

Re: update - William Evans

How did I miss this? So much added since last time I read this thread back in 2017. Thank you all for adding exiting information.

Kuduae, I believe you might be right. I’m really not familiar with the different British titles, but I understand I need to get myself one now that I have this rifle!

3DogMike, this engraving is interesting, "Sighted & Shot By William Evans (From Purdey's) 63 Pall Mall St. James London". My understanding is that a wording like this indicates exactly what you already have suggested. The rifle arrived at W.E. close to completed or in the white, tested for functionality and engraved at the end, then final finish if needed.

You also mentioned Webley Scott. I have a S/S shotgun, a W.S 700 series with the engraving: “Shot and regulated by Holland & Holland”. This is a box lock, and there is engraved an H&H on one side of the lock. This shotgun is identified in the H&H archives, but it’s not really an H&H gun at all. I have been told that H&H did extremely little to these shotguns, apparently just a quick test and some engraving before final finish. They just needed some cheaper alternatives for the game wardens out there. Ordering these from W.S was a better solution than designing a cheap box lock from the bottom. This last part was a digression from my side, but there were some details I felt like sharing.

(.333 member)

16/07/20 10:17 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Quote:

Just to get something relevant back to the top of the Mannlicher Forum.......
- Mike

+

(.224 member)

15/01/21 09:12 AM

Re: update - William Evans

I would agree with HistoricBore that it could well be the original pad that has lost its shape. I have just found that the Silver’s pad I fitted about 40 years ago to one of my rifles had collapsed under the weight of the rifle stood butt down in the cabinet.
Fortunately I had a suitable replacement.

(.224 member)

26/04/24 02:30 AM

Re: update - William Evans

This reminds me of the days, probably now the best part of 50 years ago, when William Evans still kept rifles for sale in a rack backing on to the side window of the shop (we were less security conscious in those days).

I was particularly taken by a brace of cute little 6.5 MS carbines. As they were too short to stand safely in the rack by themselves they each had a Parker-Hale cleaning rod inserted into the muzzle to hold them in place.

(.400 member)

26/04/24 10:31 AM

Re: update - William Evans

Thats an interesting story about the cleaning rods.

Matt.

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