| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 27/06/12 04:35 AM |
My M-S 1903 Take Down .256
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Hello,
I bought this of Holts Sealed Bids sale in January, but didn't receive it until now from England (it's been a long wait). And luckily it turned out alright.
It is a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903, take-down, in 6,5x54, number 17833. The barrel says "SPECIALLY MADE FOR CHAS. A. HEYER & CO." (just as the Osa Johnson Mauser), so it was originally ordered in Africa, which makes it a bit special (I confess this is one of the reasons I bought it). The stock seems to be typical Mannlicher, but some other details are different. It has an express sight with folding leafs up to 500 yards and an extra long barrel of 27,5". It also features a removable pistol grip cap (in horn) with a replacement front sight wrapped in paper inside (this wasn't mentioned in the auction text BTW). You press the small button and turn the cap 90 degrees and lift it up, I haven't seen this on any other rifle.
It does have british proof marks, probably done when brought to England later.
The only thing I will change about it is to remove the extension and fit a new Silvers to it as it is very, very long now. I did some shooting with it this weekend, and I placed three shots within an inch on 50 yards and no adjustments where needed.
It is in excellent shape, just the correct amount of patina. No trace of renovation or reblueing.
The scope have been fitted later, it is a Zeiss Diatal-DA in 4x32 in swivel mounts. The vendor, James Hepburne Scott, was kind enough to provde the following provenance, which adds to its uniqueness:
"I come from a line of passionate deerstalkers. Edward Ross was my great-grandfather. His father was Horatio. Hence I was thrilled when my uncle, Lord Polwarth, gave me this rifle for my 21st birthday in 1968. He took me to Holland & Holland where I was allowed to choose it. The sight was a gift from the three Miss Robertsons, of Robertson & Baxter whisky renown, who had so kindly invited me to stalk at Cluanie in Wester Ross for the previous five seasons. It was thanks to them that my interest in deer and deer-stalking developed and over the years I made so many wonderful friends in that part of Scotland.
Since the death of these remarkable ladies I have been very fortunate to be invited to stalk at the neighbouring estates of Glen Sheil, Glen Quoich, Barisdale and Druidaig; also, further afield, at Gruinard, Invercauld and Balmoral (as a young army officer).
This sport has given me more pleasure over the years than all others put together, and the sensation experienced as the rifle is drawn out of its sleeve after a long crawl across impossibly open ground is one I will take to Heaven, if I should ever get there."
Pictures:
In good company (a british made M-S 1903, unknown maker):
And even better company (the other two both belonging to my brother):
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 27/06/12 05:04 AM |
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Interesting and unusual MS, Congrats. I would agree that the butt extension has to go. Your brothers '03 MS shows some characteristics common to the Daniel Fraser firm. Is the Mauser an early Rigby?
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 27/06/12 05:10 AM |
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Thanks!
Yes, it is an original Rigby .275, its number is 67455 (Mauser) and 5510 (Rigby).
/C
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 27/06/12 01:11 PM |
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Re: My M-S 1903 Take Down .256
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very nice
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 27/06/12 01:21 PM |
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Superb.
Thanks for posting.
| HeymSR20 |
| (.300 member) |
| 10/07/12 03:10 AM |
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I've handled but not shot that rifle - it is very nice indeed. The previous owner was a colleague of my Wife and I know he treasured it, and will be pleased its gone to a good home.
We have a silly law in Scotland that forbids for deer stalking the use of ammunition with less than 2450 fps or 100gn bullet weight for deer (60gn for Roe deer). We also have to show good reason to own a rifle. The factory ammo loadings for the 6.5 MS with 156gn bullet do not reach the minimum velocity requirements, ergo our firearms licencing departments are reluctant to allow coninued possession of 6.5MS rifles, since they are no longer "deer" legal and thus you cannot show good reason to possess them. Yes of course you can reload with a lighter bullet and easily exceed the velocity requirements, but that is a real faff to prove to them etc. Hence an awful lot of these lovely old rifles are being forced onto the market, even though there are countless deer that could testify as to their effectiveness.
I have another friend who is a dealer who has a whole roomfull of these old Mannlicher's that he is slowly dripping into the market.
| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 10/07/12 07:03 PM |
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Re: My M-S 1903 Take Down .256
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That's a really nice M.1903.
My 1927 M.1910 in 9,5x57 M.Sch has the same arrangement of a removable horn pistol grip cap with the same sight wrapped in newspaper. It's 10 thou different to the fitted sight and there's at least 1.5" change in group height by changing sights. To remove the fitted sight on my rifle, I have to drift it from left to right.
Mine doesn't have the multi-leaf standing sights like yours but an early factory catalogue shows they were an optional extra, perhaps fitted in this case for Heyer. In other respects, including the take-down pin and lever, it's the same and it was known by the Steyr factory as their "English" model. As to my barrel length, it's either the same or similar, I'd have to check. The M.1910 has a steel buttplate rather than a pad and this has a couple of spare rounds and a cleaning rod (take-down), under a trap. It also has a Baillie-Grohman peep sight that folds down when the bolt is cocked and then back up again.
I also have a 6,5 M.Sch carbine. I find that new or old 159-grain RWS bullets are undersize. Perhaps to fit some other German 6,5mm caliber also? I use an expander ball that I've turned down a few thou and this grips these undersize bullets, but accuracy is not flash and velocity is lacking. Hornady 160 grain .264" bullets are much more accurate and velocity better. If you slug the bore, you may be able to use Carcano diameter bullets as Handloader magazine recently advised. However, the Carcano bullets have to be loaded to a much shorter length or otherwise they jam in the rifling. This is because the forward part of the bullet is much less tapered than the .264" ones from the same company. Unless you have an OAL guage, and are a very experienced handloader, I'd perhaps avoid them. However, they do give good accuracy and velocity by obturating those rifles fitted with oversize bores. It seems that before 1945 6,5x54 M.Sch barrel lands and grooves were somewhat larger than those made after 1950, but assume nothing until your bore has been slugged.
I was in the Holland and Holland gunroom 25 or more years ago and this new Scottish law was about to come into effect. I was looking at a couple of 6,5x54 Mannlicher's but they expected others would soon become available. They made the point, a very fair one I think, that the 6,5 Mannlicher had probably shot more red deer in Scottland than any other except perhaps the venerable .303 British. It had also accounted for probably every game animal on Earth. So it is a very silly law.
| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 10/07/12 07:10 PM |
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I just checked. My M.1910 (9,5x57 M. Sch.) barrel length is 23,7/8" Longer barrels helped burn early powders more efficiently but also, with open sights, meant a longer sighting plane.
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 10/07/12 09:18 PM |
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Re: My M-S 1903 Take Down .256
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Thanks Kiwi for the information, I wasn't aware of the English model, that's very interesting.
My extra sight isn't the exact same width as the one fitted, so maybe the original has been replaced for additional height or something.
It is very likely that my stock have the compartment for cleaning supplies as well, but is hidden because of the extension and rubber pad. I'll make sure my gunsmith checks when removing it.
Yours sounds like a very nice rifle as well, it would be great to see pictures of it.
Thanks,
Lars
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 10/07/12 09:20 PM |
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Re: My M-S 1903 Take Down .256
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Quote:
I've handled but not shot that rifle - it is very nice indeed. The previous owner was a colleague of my Wife and I know he treasured it, and will be pleased its gone to a good home.
We have a silly law in Scotland that forbids for deer stalking the use of ammunition with less than 2450 fps or 100gn bullet weight for deer (60gn for Roe deer).
That's great, thanks!
In Sweden 6,5x54 meets the minimum for moose, deer and wild boar, even though I plan to use it mostly for stalking roe deer.
/L
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 11/07/12 02:30 PM |
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Very nice.
| Rule303 |
| (.416 member) |
| 12/07/12 08:50 AM |
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Great looking rifles. The Scotish laws regarding deer are certainly ill thought out.
Thanks for posting.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 12/07/12 06:05 PM |
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Quote:
I was in the Holland and Holland gunroom 25 or more years ago and this new Scottish law was about to come into effect. I was looking at a couple of 6,5x54 Mannlicher's but they expected others would soon become available. They made the point, a very fair one I think, that the 6,5 Mannlicher had probably shot more red deer in Scottland than any other except perhaps the venerable .303 British. It had also accounted for probably every game animal on Earth. So it is a very silly law.
Could you explain what the new Scottish game law is? Had a look through the thread and couldn't see a reference to it, but may have missed one?
I am guessing the 6.5mm will no longer be legal for red stag in Scotland? If so, a similar stupid law exists in Victoria where a 2" case, .270 and 130 gr is the minimum legal calibre for red deer. (unless I have completely forgotten it).
Would appreciate comments on the new Scots laws. Thanks.
| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 12/07/12 06:38 PM |
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I took up your suggestion Clark to add photos of my M.1910 take-down for you to compare. Let's hope these links work.
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 13/07/12 06:09 AM |
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Very nice Kiwi, and very similar to mine (and I thought the removable grip cap was unique...
). Looks like yours have a cheekpiece?Thanks for posting!
/L
| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 13/07/12 04:45 PM |
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Next time you see a German newspaper, tear off a corner and you know exactly what to wrap in it !
The 6,5x54 was a very popular target rifle once, and I think the longer barrel might relate to that period and that heritage, (i,e a longer sighting plane). Part of the reason for it's popularity for target shooting was that a worn bolt face could, if required, be removed and replaced. Check those numbers !
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 13/07/12 05:45 PM |
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I'll remember that, mine is wrapped in a oil-soaked piece of paper now.
Yes, that is a possibility, I can also imagine that the longer barrel on mine was because it was ordered for Africa, similar to the Mauser Africa model which also has an almost unnecessary long barrel.
Those 9.5x57 cartridges are beautiful BTW
/L
| HeymSR20 |
| (.300 member) |
| 14/07/12 04:08 AM |
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NitroX,
There are a number of minimum requirements on what rifles are legal for shooting deer in the UK. And it changes within the different countries.
So for example with my 243 and an 85grain bullet I can quite legally shoot a Red deer in England, but not in Scotlnd - bullet is too light. But in England I can't shoot a Roe deer with a 222 - min calibre is .240.
A 458 Win mag is deer legal in England but not in Scotland as it does n't have enough velocity. Nor is the 30-30.
The detail is from the BASC website - http://www.basc.org.uk/en/codes-of-practice/deer-stalking.cfm
The stalker must only use a rifle and ammunition which are legal for the species of deer being shot. In addition to compliance with the law the stalker should be guided by knowledge, experience and personal preference in their choice of a rifle and ammunition. The legal requirements are laid down in the several Deer Acts and Orders. For example:
England and Wales
For Muntjac and Chinese Water deer only- a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than .220 inches and muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 50 grains may be used.
For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .240 and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement.
Northern Ireland
For Muntjac and Chinese Water deer only- a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than .220 inches and muzzle energy of not less than 1000 foot pounds and a bullet weight of not less than 50 grains may be used.
For all deer of any species - a minimum calibre of .236 inches, a minimum bullet weight of 100 grains and minimum muzzle energy of 1,700 foot pounds is the legal requirement.
Scotland
For roe deer, where the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds may be used.
For all deer of any species - the bullet must weigh at least 100 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,750 foot pounds.
| JDL |
| (.300 member) |
| 14/07/12 10:32 AM |
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Kiwi bloke, What is the pin just in front of the trigger guard on your very nice 1910?
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 14/07/12 05:24 PM |
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That's the release level for the take-down feature. If the magazine and bolt is taken out, all you need to do is to turn this level and remove the pin in the forestock and the action+barrel can be lifted out of the stock.
/C
| JDL |
| (.300 member) |
| 14/07/12 11:40 PM |
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Really neat, thanks. I've never seen a takedown except in pictures.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 15/07/12 12:32 AM |
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Everytime I see these lovely Mannlicher-Schoenauers I reflect on the two I let get away, a 6.5x54 and a 9.5x57. Both at the same time and at a reasonable price. But I was about to purchase my Jeffery double at the time and that was a big bite out of the bank account.
All of those rifles displayed look very nice and would be pleasant to hunt with.
PS Thanks for the comments on the ballistic legalities of deer hunting in the UK.
| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 16/07/12 08:23 AM |
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These might assist. They're from a translated 1935 Steyr catalogue, (Steyr being the makers of Mannlicher-Schoenauer).
| HeymSR20 |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/07/12 07:41 PM |
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On the ballistic legalities, Kynoch Ammo now load for 6.5 MS a 140gr bullet at 2,700 fps so deer legal for any deer in the UK.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 18/07/12 02:02 AM |
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6.5x54 with 140gr. at 2,700fps is really smoking for that round. What barrel length does Kynoch use?
That speed is right up with the best load for the 6.5 Creedmoor which makes it only with Hybrid100V powder and at 59,600psi, as well as the better data for a 24" .260 Rem at 57,000psi and 6.5x55 showing approx. 55,000psi, that's the 6.5x55's CIP max.
Even the 6.5/06 beats 2,700fps by only 100fps with all pressuresfor loads 2,730fps to 2,848fps, running over 61,300psi to 62,700psi - again, 24" bl.
A speer bullet was used in that testing.
I have to wonder if the barrel was at least 28" long for their test rifle.
| HeymSR20 |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/07/12 08:55 PM |
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More info on Kynoch Ammo is at http://new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/6-5MS.htm. Barrel length was 26". They quote pressure at 17.5 Tons per sq inch. Assuming a UK ton, thats 2240 lbs per ton, that equates to 39,200 PSI. Haven't a clue whatt powder they are using, but probably something slow buring with lots of shove but not much pressure. The converse to short high presure cartridges from the 308, 260, 7mm-08, 243 type.
They also produce the 9.5 MS, or 375 Rimless.
| FATBOY404 |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/07/12 08:57 PM |
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I have been away and missed this.
Very nice mate.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 19/07/12 12:29 AM |
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6.5x54 MS is listed as CIP pezio at 53,000 PSI and 46,000 CIP copper units of pressure.
It would be absolutely impossible to achieve that speed with less pressure using today's powders I'm sure - when the slightly larger cases barely make it at yet higher pressure.
I made the mistake of assuming the long ton was the correct multiplier some time ago and was corrected by another site memeber here. This listing I just made is straight off this site below. I find it handy and the text also talks/explains the various methods and locations of measurement, between SAAMI and CIP.
http://kwk.us/pressures.html
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/02/13 02:38 AM |
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Hello,
A small update. I had an old, canvas rifle case which I had previously used for my full stock M-S Model NO (which I've sold). My guess is that it must have been made for a pre-war Mannlicher 1903 full stock, as no other rifle would have fit. My brother bought it off Ebay a couple of years ago for his Mannlicher, but it was too short (later, he found an old Jeffery case which fitted perfectly).
Anyway, because the extra length of the stock and barrel of mine, it actually would fit very well into this case. So I removed the previous furniture and redid the cloth. I did reuse some of the old parts, but most of them had to be done new. It was down to a lot of luck to be able to fit the scope in there, but I think it worked out pretty well. I will probably add a trade label to it, just because I think a case like this should have one.
You can also see that I've had the extension removed but I kept the old Silvers recoil pad as I think it adds a bit of charm.
Pictures:
/C
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/02/13 03:33 AM |
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Clark I bid against you on this one. Congrats.
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/02/13 05:08 AM |
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Thank you!
There's a very nice, British built one on the upcoming auction. I'm going there, but unfortunately I can't buy another one due to the Swedish gun laws, so I'll only be looking:
http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...3&saletype=
/C
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/02/13 05:56 AM |
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I've got a bid in on it already. I did get this one out of the same auction as yours. It's lot listed as a takedown but I see the takedown lever so I'm hoping. It's a model 1900 listed as 6.5x57. We'll see.
| Caprivi |
| (.375 member) |
| 22/02/13 06:10 AM |
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Very nice Clark. Congrats
| Clark |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/02/13 08:54 AM |
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That's a nice one as well Casper, especially with the diopter. The one on Holt's is also a take-down but it doesn't say so in the description either.
Thanks Caprivi!
/C