NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 15/12/11 07:46 PM |
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What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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A Steyr chambered for .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express. As per the photo. Also on the barrel with a BP proof mark .376 Ex and a Cordite 40, 270 grs max. Posted on the NE facebook page.
What cartridge would this Steyr be chambered for?
9.5x57 or .375 2 1/2" Nitro Express?
My guess is the 9.5x57?
Quote:
STEYR 1893 , 375 Westley & Richards N.E , Model 1892 . Barrel has engraved on top , Westley Richards & Co . London. Behind rear sight and close to barrel root is written,” Westley Richards High Velocity Nitro Express Rifle .375 Bore “.
| Sarg |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/12/11 08:44 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I like it !
It will be in .375 2 1/2" Nitro Express as that was the chambering in that model , if it is in 375 .
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 15/12/11 08:57 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Also was asked, what you think its value would be?
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/12/11 07:24 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Could the shell in this case be rimmed (.375 2½ Nitro Express)? Like 6,5x53R...
| FATBOY404 |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/12/11 07:48 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I have fired Greame Wrights 375 WR 2 1/2" BR.
Was pretty cool.
The other thing is that 9.5x66 I want to build is also called a 375 WR.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 16/12/11 08:11 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I would try to shove an 8x57 case into the chamber. If it is chambered for the straight .375 case (most likely), the shoulder of the 8x57 will not allow the empty 8mm to go in very far. If it is actually chamberd for the 9.5x57, it will allow the 8x57 case to chamber easily.
What was the first belted .375 called? I though it was the WR .375 Nitro Express, but maybe is was called the .375 Belted Magnum Express?
| kamilaroi |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/12/11 08:14 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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From the load it appears a 9.5 x 57 (or variant)
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 16/12/11 08:21 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Seems to me the original load for the first belted (almost straight cased) .375 was 40gr. cordite with a 270gr. bullet.
It is mentioned in Ken Waters book & probably COTW.
| underlever |
| (.300 member) |
| 16/12/11 09:17 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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The case must be rimmed to work with the clips in the Steyr so my money would be on the 375 2 1/2.
Always hard to put a value on these buggers due to so few of them coming up for sale. I always seem to fall back on the "how bad do I want it " thought process and go from there.
| Ash |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/12/11 12:31 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Daryl,
Is this the cartridge you refer to?
Section below it is the 9.5x57.
Both list the 270gr at pretty much the same velocity for factory loads. I know nothing of either of these personally, just have the CotW book and a 400/375 cartridge.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 16/12/11 01:45 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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You're right, Ash - I was wrong about the amount of shoulder - it has more than I remembered (that was a long time ago - HA!). Sure got a long neck.
I do like the 9.5x57 - might build one some day on an improved 8mm Mauser case. That one looks very nearly so, much less taper than an 8x57 Mauser. Modern loadings in M98 rifles will, of course, somewhat enhance it's ballistics.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 16/12/11 02:55 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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my guess its the 375 2 1/2"
the bolt knob looks like on my rifle
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=158961&an=0&page=2#Post158961
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/12/11 03:41 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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It should be a .375 2 1/2" flanged. The there is a lot of discussion of this rifle and cartridge in Winfers British Single Shot Rifles, Westley Richards.
The .375 Express in Waters book is a wildcat based on the .444 Marlin case.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 17/12/11 03:38 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, DD.
The 'Waters" book round I referred to was on page 294 of "Pet Loads". There is a picture of 5, .375 rounds, the first being:
#1 the first belted .375 designated the .400/375 H&H, circa 1905:
He also goes on to state, when referring to the 'first belted .375:
"That honour - if it be such - must go to the older and smaller .400/375 Holland and Holland, which made it's appearance around 1905 in the Holland barreled Mannlicher-Schoenaur rifles bearing the stamp "Steyr 1905" on their receiver sides." This paragraph is beside the picture noted on page 294.
It is the same round Ash pictured above, but in the photo in Water's book, appears to barely have any shoulder, almost a straight tapered case. This was due to the photo's quality only, I'm sure.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 17/12/11 05:01 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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A Westley-Richards rifle chambered for the .400-.375 belted aka .375 Velopex is highly unlikely, as that first belted cartridge was a Holland & Holland proprietary one, ammo available from H&H only.
| 50Calshtr |
| (.300 member) |
| 30/12/11 02:11 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Underlever is correct, the cartridge has got to be the 375x2.5" to fit the clip, without the clip it's just a single shot. That same clip fits the 6.5 and 303 brit that were common chamberings in this rifle.
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/12/11 02:26 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Quote:
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, DD.
The 'Waters" book round I referred to was on page 294 of "Pet Loads". There is a picture of 5, .375 rounds, the first being:
#1 the first belted .375 designated the .400/375 H&H, circa 1905:
He also goes on to state, when referring to the 'first belted .375:
"That honour - if it be such - must go to the older and smaller .400/375 Holland and Holland, which made it's appearance around 1905 in the Holland barreled Mannlicher-Schoenaur rifles bearing the stamp "Steyr 1905" on their receiver sides." This paragraph is beside the picture noted on page 294.
It is the same round Ash pictured above, but in the photo in Water's book, appears to barely have any shoulder, almost a straight tapered case. This was due to the photo's quality only, I'm sure.
We must have different editions of Pet loads, my page 294 is on the 308 1/2.
I found it, what you quote is in the chapter on the .375 H&H--page 438 in my book.
I looked in a couple Waters book and the only .375 Express reference I found was in his Wildcats book and the 444 marlin. I knew from reading Winfer's work that couldn't be right as Westley Richards was working with Mannlicher and the 375 on a variation of the .303 case.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 02/01/12 07:30 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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In their 1912 catalog Westley Richards described both the rimmed .375 2.5" NE and the rimless .375 nitro express aka 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer as "our .375 High Velocity Nitro Express Rifles". The Holland&Holland proprietary .400/375 is not even mentioned. The load for the .375 2.5" is given as 40grs Cordite/270 grs bullet - mv 2000fps, right on the money for the barrel inscription. As neither the rimless .375 NE nor the belted .400/375 H&H aka .375 Velopex will work in the clip-loading magazine of the 92/93/95 turnbolt Mannlichers, the rifle is certainly chambered for the .375 2 1/2" rimmed NE.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 02/01/12 01:35 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Thanks Kuduae for the reply. My first guess was the 2 1/2" and your factual response leads to that as well.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 03/01/12 06:22 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Afterthought: Westley Richards criticized Holland&Holland's .400/.375 Velopex load in their 1912 catalog, page 111. After describing the ballistics of the .375 rimless Nitro Express aka 9.5x57 M-Sch, 270grs at 2200fps, they warned:
"N.B.-The weight of the bullet with which the 2,200 ft.sec. velocity is obtained should be noted.
The velocity of 2,200 ft. is the highest obtainable with the 270 grs. weight of bullet in the .375 rifle; higher velocities, which are obtained by using lighter bullets, increase the penetration at the expense of expansion and general effectiveness, and are not to be recommended for sport." End of quote.
Though obviously partly wrong, this is apparently directed against Holland & Holland's .400/.375 Velopex load, as advertized in H&H's 1910 catalog, page 52 http://www.rbsiii.com/nitro_express/H&H_1910_Catalog.pdf
The patented H&H Velopex bullets were very light for the calibers, the jackets partly filled with some fiber instead of lead. H&H don't mention a bullet weight. They only mention a then staggering mv of 2500 fps and a striking energy of 2583 Ft. Lbs. Trying to calculate back from these numbers, I land at a bullet weight under 200 grs. Apparently this fad for ultra-light bullets did not last long.
The post-1928 ICI catalog lists the .400/.375 NE (Holland) with a 270grs bullet, 43 grs Cordite for 2175 fps from a 28" barrel, about the same as the other two non-Magnum .375s.
The modern Kynoch load is advertized with a 235 grs bullet at 2400 fps:
http://new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/400-375%20belted.htm
Why should Westley Richards pre-WW1 have chambered a rifle, except perhaps on very special order, one of their rifles for a cartridge they did not like at all, and only available from their competitor??
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/01/12 06:29 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Interesting, thank you.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 03/02/12 01:46 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I'm going to have to look at my PetLoads book tonight!
The .375 Flanged 2 1/2" looks more interesting every day...
Cheers
Tinker
| Oldbrit |
| (.333 member) |
| 04/02/12 08:13 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I was fortunate to pick up some Kynoch original 375 X 2½ in sealed boxes date coded 1938. In the interests of research I pulled one cartridge and it contained exactly 40 grains of stick cordite in a balloon head case. The bullet had a thin glazed card wad underneath it. The bullet weighs 270 grains and is stab crimped into the case very close to its base. Amazingly the bullet has the letter “K” embossed on its base. Heaven alone knows why they did that but it does look nice. As I had 34 rounds of this I shot five rounds over my chronograph to see what they do. They averaged 1958 fps and were very consistent. They are undoubtedly corrosively primed so I had to scrub the gun out well afterwards. A reproduction of an old ICI Sporting Ammunition Catalogue I have gives a muzzle velocity of 2100 fps from a 25” barrel but I can only report the results I got.
| Sarg |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/02/12 10:55 AM |
Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Strange Tinker , I find myself drawn to it more as well
I have found some info on loads on the net , interesting some of it , one thing was the working
Pressure of the old Cordite loads - 270Gr - 40Grs Cordite = 14 Tons - 320 - ?Grs (most likely 40) Cordite = 17 Tons , I think 303 Brit is 18 or 18.5 Tons ?
Elmer Keiths load was 48gr IMR 3031 said to be hot !
Guys were using 42Gr of IMR 3031 to start & working up .
The other was 270Gr Interlock , Reloader RL15 start at 45Gr work up to 47Gr which shot to the sights for regulation of 270Gr 40Gr Cordite rifle
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 04/02/12 12:44 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Sarg-
Ken Waters used IMR 4320 on 270gr bullets, I have some of that here and a little bit of .444 brass.
I can believe the Keith loads may have been hot.
I'm thinking with 270s, 4330, and a chronograph, it should be pretty easy to keep things cool in the boiler room!
It's great that OldBrit has chrono data for us all from orig ammunition.
Interesting too, 444 brass and the Woodleigh make LS magazine length at the cannelure...
Cheers
Tinker
| DarylS |
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| 04/02/12 12:47 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Quote:
I was fortunate to pick up some Kynoch original 375 X 2½ in sealed boxes date coded 1938. In the interests of research I pulled one cartridge and it contained exactly 40 grains of stick cordite in a balloon head case. The bullet had a thin glazed card wad underneath it. The bullet weighs 270 grains and is stab crimped into the case very close to its base. Amazingly the bullet has the letter “K” embossed on its base. Heaven alone knows why they did that but it does look nice. As I had 34 rounds of this I shot five rounds over my chronograph to see what they do. They averaged 1958 fps and were very consistent. They are undoubtedly corrosively primed so I had to scrub the gun out well afterwards. A reproduction of an old ICI Sporting Ammunition Catalogue I have gives a muzzle velocity of 2100 fps from a 25” barrel but I can only report the results I got.
I hope you used water as well as oils later. The nitro solvents will not get rid of all of the gun barrel 'toxins' that are contained in corrosive primers.
| Sarg |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/02/12 03:45 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Sounds exciting Tinker , can't wait for a report !
| Oldbrit |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/02/12 03:53 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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Quote:
I hope you used water as well as oils later. The nitro solvents will not get rid of all of the gun barrel 'toxins' that are contained in corrosive primers.
Ballistol and water... lots of it, followed by normal cleaning.
I'm loading 47 grs of Re 15 behind a hard cast 270 gr gas check bullet in my 1902 Webley. This approximates the old Kynoch cartridges I tested. I've used 44 grs behind a 300 gr Hornady solid but never chronographed it. The cases dropped out and I feel I could have gone a bit hotter but I don't want to strain the old lady.
| Ulfhere |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/03/12 01:27 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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The old and very popular 375 NE (2-1/2 in) may have originated with Holland, but it was widely used in the gun trade. When Holland brought out the 400/375 for their highly modified Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle in 1905 I guess it created some envy because here was what a lot of folks thought was the hottest bolt action going loaded with something that gave the velocity of a 303 (better actually) with the diameter and bullet weight of a more substantial medium bore thumper.
The 9.5 x 57 mm Mannlicher Schoenauer, introduced in the Model 1910 rifle, may have been designed by Westley Richards, not Steyr. I think it was brought out specifically because Holland controlled the only rimless 375 on the market. And of course only a year after Westley Richards duplicated their 400/375, Holland trumped that by bringing out the 375 Belted Rimless Magnum Nitro Express (better known as the 375 H&H to us today). The big magnum 375 is what killed the smaller 375s, not any lack of performance. These cartridges are all in the same class as the 348 Winchester, 358 Winchester, 9.3 x 57 mm Mauser, etc, which is to say they are serious medicine for nearly anything.
My brother is rebuilding a 1910 MS for me right now and I will post a web page on the project when it is complete.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/03/12 08:46 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I very much doubt that either Steyr or Westley-Richards designed the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer aka .375 Rimless Nitro Express from scratch! The 1904 DWM catalog shows a case called "9.4x56" (after bore diameter?). The DWM case #393 points to the mid-1890s. For use with this case the catalog shows bullet #156, a round nose fmj 9.6mm = .378" diameter of 25.7g = 396 gr! The drawing of case #393 looks just like the later 9.5x57 with a M88 base, a straight body and a steep shoulder.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 06/04/12 02:12 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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FWIW
48 grains looks to be a full case in formed R-P .444 Marlin brass with the Woodleigh roundnose.
Cheers
Tinker
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 07/04/12 03:20 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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That 48gr IMR 4320 in formed .444marlin (needed base turned a few thou too) with the Woodleigh soft just shot into 2" at 100yd over the express sights of an orig Lee Speed sporter.
I have Krag brass here that looks like it'll work without turning the bases.
I'll post on that when I have something to say.
Perhaps later today I'll get good chrono data to share too.
Sweet.
Cheers
Tinker
| joelblack |
| (.275 member) |
| 18/06/12 05:36 AM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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I used to own this on in in .375 2 1/2R. I would neck up .303 cases to .375 and seat round nose 270gr bullets out a little longer than normal for it to feed correctly.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 18/06/12 03:23 PM |
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Re: What cartridge? .375 Westley Richards Nitro Express
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the difference in lenght is respectable
303 necked up to 375 and 375 NE 2 1/2( 405 Win basic)
dont know if you get set the 270 grains roundnose to fit the original length but, of course, into the Mannlicher the 375 NE have to be 2 mm shorter than usual.
I would not do this when Hornady 405 Win brass is available.