(.275 member)

03/01/12 02:28 PM

Lee Enfield help please.

I am looking for a new project and am thinking of building a hunting rifle based on a Lee Speed action. Not for any particular reason other than I just feel the need to have one.

Now I have very little (almost none) knowledge about Lee Enfield or their derivatives, hence this post. I have searched the net looking for what ever info I could find but now need some expert assistance.

After ringing a friend I was shown an action which just might be what I am after and was seeking some info about that particular action. Any info would be appreciated. History etc.

I have posted some photos of the action which I think will assist.

The main marking is E.R. BSA Co. 1902 LE 1 *.

Bolt and action serial numbers match.

There is also a spare bolt which has a safety catch incorporated. I assume that this bolt is from a later production?

Can anyone assist with some information please? Any suggestions re suitability of action for project.

(.275 member)

03/01/12 06:03 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

I have been doing a bit more research and from other markings I have found this,

Two Broadarrows with the letters VIC in between. It would seem that this rifle was originally used in Australia.

VIC Victoria Second largest colony in Australia, the broad arrow was not as widely used here as elsewhere. Other letters and marks may appear above or below the VIC mark.

The Broad Arrow is the oldest and most common mark of British government ownership. Arrows may be alone, above or between letters. There are many variations of broad arrow.

Can anyone assist further?

(.224 member)

03/01/12 06:05 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

It is an action from what is sometimes called Long lee, the predecessor to the SMLE. There is much about the rifle you do not need to know, given you only have the action. ER = Elizabeth Regina, BSA Company made, LE=Lee Enfield, to distinguish from the previous Lee Metford, and the I* indicates it was part of a rifle issued without a cleaning rod. Those issued initially with a cleaning rod were designated with a I. When it was decided to do away with the cleaning rod mounted under the barrel, the rifles began to be designated I*, * indicating a modification to a standard design.

The bolt in the action is correct for the model. The other bolt is a Metford bolt. Many Lee Speeds were built on Metford actions. The LE I was adopted in 1895. The rifle was somewhat similar to the Lee Metford MkII* Metford refereed to the type of rifling used in the rifle. Metford rifling was optimized for black powder. Enfield rifling, optimized for smokeless powder was eventually adopted and rifles barrel with Enfield barrels became Lee Enfields. The LE II was adopted in 1906. Your action should have a safety lever at the left rear much like a No1 MkIII. If the spare bolt will function, I'd use it to get closer to Lee Speed authenticity.

(.416 member)

03/01/12 06:37 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

This man, Ian Skennerton is the foremost person when it comes to the Lee Enfield rifle and of all the various other off shoots. This is his link where you can find info and books on the subject.

http://www.skennerton.com/

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

.

(.275 member)

03/01/12 06:49 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

C_Davidson,

Thanks very much for the information. A great assistance. There are so many marks etc I find in confusing.

After receiving your info I had another look at the action and I cannot see any provision to attach a safety catch. From diagrams I have managed to find, the tang style safety required a hole in the butt socket which is not present on this action.

The two holes drilled on the left hand side of the action are for the attachment of a plate to hold a peep sight (which is still available with the action).

Yes the other bolt fits the action and operates and it has a safety so that may be useful.

I take it that this action/rifle was produced for the military. Is that correct? From a few of the bits and pieces it may have been a carbine???

Once again, thanks very much for the information. Most helpful.

(.224 member)

03/01/12 07:38 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Actually, the ER stands for Edwardus Rex, i.e. Edward VIIth.

controlled_feed

(.300 member)

03/01/12 08:11 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

JohnK

The cut out around the top hole on the left side of the action is where the safety rotated AFAIK

Never say never, but I was of the impression that the carbines had a swept bolt handle and the outer side of the bolt handle and knob had a flat on them.

The action is definitley military and was sold out of service, the broad arrows facing each other in one of the pics denotes this. -><-

A competent gunsmith is the best (and IMO the safest) bet to see if she is road worthy.

+1 for using the bolt with the safety on the cocking piece, looks more Lee Speedish I think.

CF

(.275 member)

03/01/12 08:29 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Quote:

JohnK

The cut out around the top hole on the left side of the action is where the safety rotated AFAIK

Never say never, but I was of the impression that the carbines had a swept bolt handle and the outer side of the bolt handle and knob had a flat on them.

The action is definitley military and was sold out of service, the broad arrows facing each other in one of the pics denotes this. -><-

A competent gunsmith is the best (and IMO the safest) bet to see if she is road worthy.

+1 for using the bolt with the safety on the cocking piece, looks more Lee Speedish I think.

CF

CF,

Yes I thought the same thing about the bolt handle until I read somewhere that not all had that. It sure is confusing trying to get info. I also thought the same about the safety/hole on the left side of the action. However that hole is threaded and the plate to which the aperture sight is fitted fits that location exactly, and screws in if you know what I mean.

Very confusing. I will have a gunsmith look at it before I do anything.

Thanks very much for the help.

JK

(.275 member)

04/01/12 12:34 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

The machined area where your Mues sight is fitted is where the long range volley sight was fitted.

Apart from the carbine, all long rifles had these fitted until about 1915 - the SMLE had a new design of safety that fitted underneath this sight.

The Lee Speed sporters were not machined there as they did not have these sights.

Andrew

(.224 member)

04/01/12 09:46 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

I tried correcting that Elizabeth Regina thing a half dozen times, and it never took. I'm going to have to learn how to edit on this forum.

The Lee Speed sporters had a tang safety, which was a purely civilian thing. Your military action wouldn't have the tang, nor the hole through the socket for the safety arm to pass. I'm still thinking the rifle should have had a side safety, but I'll have to look. I have all of Skennerton's books. The target sight was probably this one, the No 9. http://www.rifleman.org.uk/PH_Service_sights.htm If it was a carbine action it should be marked LEC on the left side of the socket, I believe.

(.333 member)

04/01/12 07:45 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Once you sort out what type rifle and caliber you want to build it into you will have to start looking at what is already out there

Take a look at original Lee Speeds and here is another custom rifle done by California riflesmth Lon Paul in 348 Win

(.300 member)

05/01/12 02:48 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

That looks to be a fairly clean MLE action which used to belong to the Victoria government ,the 2 arrows pointing toward each other in photo #5 is the sold out of service mark .The holes on the left hand side of the action were for the volley sight arm and spring. Originally the correct bolt for that rifle would have been the one with the safety lever on the arse end of it, it's very rare to find the matching bolts because they were often kept separately at the armoury and military personnel being the caring souls they are went to great lengths to keep them matched up....NOT !! They make a neat little sporter but if you think it'll be cheap I've got some sad news for you.
The ER is for king Ted , he took over after Queen Vicky had a bad day in about 1900.

Cheers
Pete

PS the bolt handle is correct for that model , only the LEC had the swept forward handle with the flattened knob.

(.275 member)

05/01/12 08:12 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

One and all thanks very much for the info. Greatly appreciated. Some decisions need to be made now.

Darwinmauser, PM sent.

(.300 member)

11/01/12 03:52 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

JohnK,

I sent you a PM, but I'll post here too. Not too much to add to what others have said, but I'll emphasize a few minor corrections.

Posted above:

Quote:

The LE II was adopted in 1906. Your action should have a safety lever at the left rear much like a No1 MkIII. If the spare bolt will function, I'd use it to get closer to Lee Speed authenticity.

Corrections offered with goodwill in the interest of education:

No such thing as an LE II.
Your action should NOT have an SMLE safety.
Both of the bolts in your photos are "authentic" for Lee Speeds, because Lee Speeds had both styles of bolt. However, a genuine Lee Speed bolt would have no military markings.

Also, some Lee Speeds had the tang safety, but many of them did not. Some Lee Speeds had the swept forward carbine-style bolt handle, but many did not, especially the early ones.

Regarding your bolts: Lee Enfields were intended to keep their original bolts. If your headspace is OK with the matching numbered bolt, then I would keep them together. (Standard disclaimer: consult a qualified gunsmith). If you really wanted to cannibalize, I suppose you could swap the firing pins and cocking piece between the bolts, so that your locking lugs still match up but you get the benefit of the cocking piece safety, but honestly I wouldn't bother. Either bolt should work fine if the headspace is OK. Personally, I would keep the original bolt and keep to Jeff Cooper's four rules of gun safety.

Looks like a fun project. Good luck with it! Please keep us posted.

...
Anyone going to the Antique Arms Show in Las Vegas next week? I'll be there handing out Lee Speed surveys.

(.400 member)

12/01/12 12:18 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Quote

" Regarding your bolts: Lee Enfields were intended to keep their original bolts. If your headspace is OK with the matching numbered bolt, then I would keep them together. (Standard disclaimer: consult a qualified gunsmith). If you really wanted to cannibalize,I suppose you could swap the firing pins and cocking piece between the bolts, so that your locking lugs still match up but you get the benefit of the cocking piece safety, but honestly I wouldn't bother. Either bolt should work fine if the headspace is OK. Personally, I would keep the original bolt and keep to Jeff Cooper's four rules of gun safety."

Not really possible , with out cutting off the safety support housing at the rear of the bolt , as far as I remember ?

(.300 member)

12/01/12 04:53 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Quote:

Not really possible , with out cutting off the safety support housing at the rear of the bolt , as far as I remember ?

Hiya Sarg - Yes, you are correct, of course! I stand corrected. I was typing before thinking. The rear of each bolt body is different, not just the striker and coking piece, and there's no way you could easily swap those pieces between the two types---not without major surgery.

I'll try to post some pics of the two when I can.

Cheers

(Sponsor)

13/01/12 07:39 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Hey JWK

As you may have told you before I am building one of these at the moment. Had a new stock design made-up by Gordon Cussens in Tassie... (pretty sure he is a member here) it is a new pattern that we worked on (well, you know - I gave him some thoughts and he made it!!) and he can cut-out extra stocks in that design and he also has a couple other stock patterns I believe. Afro has my stock at the moment and is doing the final metal work and blueing etc and now I 'just' have to get the engraving, checkering and stock finish done. Still got a ways to go yet .. This stock pattern was a little fuller in the grip than a traditional Lee Speed but still keeps the general lines.

I can send you some images if you like?? Will post them here eventually too.... My aim with this project was to make a very high quality Lee Speed 'type' ... I have only been let-down once so far when a certain gunsmith (NOT Afro) bludgeoned the numerals '303' into the side of the new barrel... need to correct/cover-up that somehow!! That was my fault of course... should have told him to do it underside or something but did not occur to me. You live and learn I guess...

Cheers
Matt

(Sponsor)

13/01/12 08:00 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Here are the semi-finished stocks for the project. Gordon fitted them to the barrel and action - he did a superb job.... like I said though, lots more work in front of me (well... me and others!!). Gordon covered the magazine cut-off with timber as I had no plans to use it - which I think looks very neat. Afro fashioned a buffalo forend tip and I have a buffalo grip-cap from Gordon to finish into the stock when I get back home. Afro (Tony S) is doing a quarter rib and express sights I believe - in my indecision and procrastination I have basically just asked him to do what he thinks will look the best (GULP

) . Ron Croxon to do some basic/classic engraving when the metal work is done.

(.300 member)

13/01/12 08:17 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Hello Matt - Looking very nice, inspirational in fact . . .

How high is the comb line on this stock pattern ?

Cheers - Foster

(Sponsor)

13/01/12 08:41 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Hey mate - thanks. I dont have that info and I am traveling OS at the moment. feel free to send Gordon an email though and ask him. I did ask him about customising for others and he said that it is simple to add/subtract comb, if needed, to the pattern. gcusens at hotmail.com sorry I spelt his surname wrong before. Gordon is a great guy to deal with, very reasonable rates, on-time, super passionate about his work and a consummate perfectionist!!

I believe he also has Geoff Slee's old SMLE sporter pattern to work with too.

JWK - sorry my stock posts are off-topic to your metalwork questions.... my bad. Hope you dont mind...

(.416 member)

13/01/12 08:43 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Hi Matt,

Ron Croxon should be able to 'Fix' the problem with the .303 'Stamping' on the barrel. I would suggest that you consider doing what he done on mine and that is re cutting the digits and then 'Gold' filling, this way he can sex up the mistake and add a bit of class.

Cheers for now,

Jeff Gray

.

(Sponsor)

13/01/12 10:31 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Yeah thanks mate - already spoke to Ron and that's what he said he could do.

(.700 member)

13/01/12 11:07 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

WOW-

Some people would think that wood is a bit 'over the top' for an Enfield.

Whatever pleases, of course.

(Sponsor)

13/01/12 01:47 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

I think Enfields are thoroughly deserving of a nice piece of timber!!

(.416 member)

13/01/12 05:09 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Quote:

I think Enfields are thoroughly deserving of a nice piece of timber!!

Got to agree with you there Matt.

You certainly do have a good eye for a classic piece of timber. It should come up a treat.

(.275 member)

14/01/12 09:41 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Quote:

Hey JWK

As you may have told you before I am building one of these at the moment. Had a new stock design made-up by Gordon Cussens in Tassie... (pretty sure he is a member here) it is a new pattern that we worked on (well, you know - I gave him some thoughts and he made it!!) and he can cut-out extra stocks in that design and he also has a couple other stock patterns I believe. Afro has my stock at the moment and is doing the final metal work and blueing etc and now I 'just' have to get the engraving, checkering and stock finish done. Still got a ways to go yet .. This stock pattern was a little fuller in the grip than a traditional Lee Speed but still keeps the general lines.

I can send you some images if you like?? Will post them here eventually too.... My aim with this project was to make a very high quality Lee Speed 'type' ... I have only been let-down once so far when a certain gunsmith (NOT Afro) bludgeoned the numerals '303' into the side of the new barrel... need to correct/cover-up that somehow!! That was my fault of course... should have told him to do it underside or something but did not occur to me. You live and learn I guess...

Cheers
Matt

Thanks Matt,

That woodwork looks fantastic. Looking forward to seeing the completed rifle. Now I am totally confused as to which way to go.

(.275 member)

15/01/12 02:17 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Thanks for the kind comments.

FROM MEMORY (HAR! Not as good as it used to be), the grip on the new pattern is actually slightly more open than the "typical" original Lee Speed patent rifle I have measured, as far as "trigger-to-grip" measurements are concerned. It is the curve of the grip which is different. I cannot remember the comb dimensions off hand, but they are similar to many Lee Speeds, and suited to open sights. Cast is there, but not extreme.....just enough to make it comforable enough for the mythical average shooter. I can achieve minor dimensional variations when machining, and have the dimensions for this set duly recorded. I also now have a version of the new pattern without a cheekpiece. The cheekpiece on the new pattern has been very slightly changed from the pics. I can machine an integral euro style forend tip dowel on the sets if required.

These are not so easy to make, the forends are a bit of a task to fit up nicely, especially when the stocker infrequently tackles them. Like most jobs there are a few tricks to them. Maybe not a good project for a novice stockmaker.

Matt chose a nice piece of wood, I reckon. A bit cranky behind the wrist, but I feel it should be strong enough for the job. If it does go in years to come, I guess I'll just have to make him an even nicer set gratis. I gotta say, Matt was good to work for and Tony Small kindly facilitated sending/recieving the job to/from me.

Patterns like these take a lot of work, but in this case it is my while doing. A similar pattern for the No4 will be upcoming in a few months. Yes, I have all the Geoff Slee "custom" (I hate that word) patterns. Delivery time for exising patterns is fairly prompt (I machine in stages to allow the wood to relax so it takes some time), around 2-3weeks. New patterns are a different story entirely. I hope the moderators don't mind the info.........edit as you see fit.

(Sponsor)

23/01/12 05:15 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

A 'bit' cranky yes. I asked Gordon if he thought it may be too cranky. He said, "Oh I will replace it with another one if you want"...... No, no, no, wait, wait, dont....

(.700 member)

31/01/12 05:03 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

While looking through old Rifle and Handloader magazines for a .50 Alaskan article for the Finnish fellows, I came across an article in Handloader #170, 1994, page 36.

The article by Brian Montgomery is about a conversion to .45/90 on a No.IV Mark 1.

I do not know the pressure of the loads, however the author suceeded in chronographing 2,273fps with 350 and 2,130fps with 400gr. bullets using IMR3031 powder in each load along with Remington 9 1/2 magnum primers.
The author felt these loads are suitable for both No.1 as well as the No.4 rifles as he said he kept them under 45,000psi. I do not know how he came up with his pressure numbers, but in comparring to .45/70 data, he is likely quite correct in his estimates.

He used delrin inserts in the magazine to keep the ammo at the rear and to take up slack for single stack loading. It holds 4 rounds and feeds smoothly, according to the text.

The chart I have shows SAAMI specs on the .303 Brit being 49,000psi, while the CIP rating is 53,000PSI.

(.300 member)

23/11/12 05:58 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

JohnK I would say that action is a bit too significant to sporterize, being the first year of Edward VII's reign and all that, first full year anyway.

You can see it took a heck of beating when the barrel was removed: look at the peening over of the barrel ring and the lug the front guard screw threads into.

You call of course, but if you want charger loading and a two stage trigger a later action would be easier to use.

(.300 member)

13/12/13 10:51 AM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Hi Guys,
How about an update on the LS build.
Regards
Les

(Sponsor)

15/12/13 11:15 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Mine is still at the engraver... still havent finished the stock yet either... lack of time!!!

(.275 member)

17/12/13 08:18 PM

Re: Lee Enfield help please.

Quote:

Hi Guys,
How about an update on the LS build.
Regards
Les

Mate mine is now at the gunsmith, all coming together. Will keep you updated when I get it back.

NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact

Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved