Scrumbag
(.224 member)
11/11/22 10:16 PM
Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Hello all,

Hope this finds everybody well.

I am doing a little research project into handguns that have been taken on Safari and Shikar.

If anyone has seen mention of handguns taken on hunting trips as sidearms, please put a post up.

Just title and author would be great, but if you have more info it would be welcome.

Thanks in advance,

Scrummy


Marrakai
(.416 member)
11/11/22 11:53 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Plenty of youtube footage of African PH's strapping on Glocks in preparation for a guided hunt.
They never mention model or caliber, and never elaborate on whether the hardware is precautionary against lions, poachers, or thugs.


tinker
(.416 member)
12/11/22 02:38 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Working with Jack Huntington, I see many 475 and 500 caliber revolvers built for getting over to Africa for use in the field on dangerous game

The rules over there change from time to time, as does interpretation although there are dedicated handgun hunters getting through Africa

I have seen films of fellows using 10mm autoloaders in the field on game in Africa, some examples are (or were) on YouTube


tinker
(.416 member)
12/11/22 02:44 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

In the right side background of this photo there's a Cape Buffalo

Placed atop the head is a 500JRH cartridge, a cartridge of Jack's design, which he used to take that animal, on safari in Africa



I have somewhere a photo of him with the animal and his revolver from the field

I'll put it up here when I get it into a format fit for posting


DarylS
(.700 member)
12/11/22 02:48 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Ross Seyfried .500 Linebau cape buffalo - Rifle or Handloader Magazine, back in the 1990's I think.

poprivit
(.333 member)
12/11/22 03:30 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I've taken a stink bull giraffe and a lion with my S&W 500. I THINK I have some photos - will look.

Scrumbag
(.224 member)
12/11/22 04:36 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Thanks folks, keep them coming, the modern stuff is helpful.

Anything more from the "golden age" of Safari and Shikar? - Doesn't have to be what was used to hunt with, just mentioned in a book as taken on the trip.

Best wishes,

Scrummy


85lc
(.375 member)
12/11/22 08:00 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I would thionk that if you are talking 1890s - 1020s, there would be a few Mauser 96s, Webleys, Colt SA & 1911s, & S&Ws. Probably some of the vintage hynting books discuss pistols.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/11/22 02:25 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

W.D.M. Bell used a Mauser C96 broom handle pistol in the Karamojo while ivory hunting. Famously used to shoot rapid fire several zebras when Karamojo morani were crowding in and acting threatening into his camp. Demonstrated firepower.

A Mauser C96 would be handy as a defensive weapon in the wilds and savage lands around the early 1900s. Rapid fire with the reported "most powerful handgun in the world" at the time, would be invaluable. When a lot of firearms were still single shots. Put a holster stock on it and very handy.

Regarding self defensive rapid fire weapons, I've always thought a good lever action the close in "assault rifle" of 1900. A .44/40, lots of stocking power at closer ranges.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/11/22 02:36 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Look up the Johnson's (OSA & ?) Lake Paradise arsenal listing on an NE thread. Certainly will have some six-guns.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/11/22 02:48 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Look up the Johnson's (OSA & ?) Lake Paradise arsenal listing on an NE thread. Certainly will have some six-guns.




Osa & Martin Johnson's Lake Paradise arsenal
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=57680&an=&page=0&vc=1

Quote:
Martin and Osa Johnson spent four years at "Lake Paradise" in Northern Kenya on the Eithiopian (then Absynnia) border. This was their second sojourn to the Lake to take photos and film of the wildlife.

They armed themselves with the following 'arsenal':

3 English Blands - .470 NE - double barrel
1 English Bland - .275 - Mannlicher action
1 American Springfield - .303 - Mauser action
1 English Rigby - .505 - Mauser action
3 American Winchesters - .405 - lever action
1 American Winchester - .32 - lever action
2 English Jeffrey's - .404 - Mauser action
1 American Winchester shotgun - 12g - repeating
1 American Parker - 12g - double barrel
1 American Ithaca - 20g - double barrel
1 American Ithaca - 20g - sawed off shotgun, called riot gun
1 .38 Colt revolver
1 .45 Colt revolver


Reference: "I Married Adventure" by Osa Johnson, 1940


eagle27
(.400 member)
12/11/22 02:50 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

John 'Pondoro' Taylor used his 455 Webley service revolver to take out a lion and hyena or two that were sneaking around camp at night. There is a chapter in his book 'African Rifles and Cartridges' on the use of handguns in Africa. He wrote that the Americans would often have a handgun on the hip when hunting whereas the English thought that was being too much of a cowboy and not the thing to be seen doing. Subsequently a few paid with their lives where a handgun would have saved them.

Taylor proposed a small semi-auto with suitable FMJ bullets as being the most suitable to carry and have to hand if a cat got you down so you could blow it's brain out while it chewed the other arm. The big heavy Webley was too heavy to tote around normally, but Taylor said any handgun was better than trying to hold off a cat by hand.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/11/22 02:53 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

These sorts of handguns were quite commonly used as well on shikar.



http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=337609&an=&page=0&vc=1


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/11/22 02:55 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Scrumbag, modern usage. Don Heath did an article in African Hunter magazine on defensive use of handguns used by PHs. Tested on an elephant skull. The .357 penetrated the best.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/11/22 03:00 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

John 'Pondoro' Taylor used his 455 Webley service revolver to take out a lion and hyena or two that were sneaking around camp at night. There is a chapter in his book 'African Rifles and Cartridges' on the use of handguns in Africa. He wrote that the Americans would often have a handgun on the hip when hunting whereas the English thought that was being too much of a cowboy and not the thing to be seen doing. Subsequently a few paid with their lives where a handgun would have saved them.

Taylor proposed a small semi-auto with suitable FMJ bullets as being the most suitable to carry and have to hand if a cat got you down so you could blow it's brain out while it chewed the other arm. The big heavy Webley was too heavy to tote around normally, but Taylor said any handgun was better than trying to hold off a cat by hand.




Good one. I was going to mention the Webley but didn't have an actual reference. Many a British official, serving or ex officer would have carried one.



http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=251275&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1


85lc
(.375 member)
13/11/22 12:49 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Mauser C96s seem to have been very popular with the Brits - Churchill used one in SA.

However, I find the C-96 to be somewhat awkard and has a few sharp edges that don't feel great under recoil. (A friend with smaller hnds said he didn't notic the two sharp edges when shooting my C-96)

As a carry gun around 1915 or later, I would opt for a 1911 or, second best, a big Colt DA 45. The 1911 is easier to carry, reasonably accurate, & with spare mag, enough gun to keep someone comfortable.


Scrumbag
(.224 member)
22/11/22 11:25 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Thanks folks, keep them coming!

jvw
(.300 member)
23/11/22 11:47 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Plenty of youtube footage of African PH's strapping on Glocks in preparation for a guided hunt.
They never mention model or caliber, and never elaborate on whether the hardware is precautionary against lions, poachers, or thugs.




From having owned a few Glocks myself when I lived in Africa I can tell you that they are mostly meant for protection against the two-legged variety of danger. They come in handy when delivering a coup de grace as well, from time to time.


Marrakai
(.416 member)
23/11/22 12:48 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

protection against the two-legged variety



That was certainly the impression I got from the deliberate lack of elaboration on the youtube clips.

I was trying to leave that un-said...

For clients hunting though, obviously the big revolver is king,
with purpose-built single-shots in rifle calibres nipping at their heels.

Good account of the latter here if you haven't seen it, Scrumbag.


85lc
(.375 member)
25/11/22 10:44 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Marrakai,

Thanks for posting the article on the 375JDJ. That entire JDJ series was very interesting and unfortunately, people seem to have lost interest in handgun hunting, at least with SS pistols.

I had a 9.3JDJ which was very accurate and a good thumper. I was always aware when it shot althougnthe recoil was not as notiveable as a 444Marlin in a RPM XL. I sold the 9.3JDJ only because I also had a contender in 375Win which did all I needed.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
07/09/23 05:01 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Gentlemen, if you carried a handgun on safari, or Asian shikar, assuming the latter was still possible, what handgun would you strap to your hip, orbin a shoulder holster?

And why, for what?

Btw Malaysia/Borneo hunts seem to be taking placecagain. I've seen water buffalo and saltwater crocodile trophy photos.


degoins
(.333 member)
07/09/23 11:21 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

A 4" barreled Smith and Wesson Model 29 or 629 as a last ditch if a cat grabbed me and I didn't die immediately and for 2 legged threats.

9.3x57
(.450 member)
07/09/23 11:42 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I had a Ruger .44 Mag Super Blackhawk which I was going to bring to SA when we moved over there. No problems w/ RSA rules and regs but found out only too late that I couldn't bring it into NYC & then JFK airport so swapped it for an old transition model 36/336 Ruger .30-30 which I added a Williams peep sight to and zeroed in my parents parsonage basement, lying down on the concrete and shooting into a backstop made of stacked firewood.

Once in Natal I took it to "the Back 40" and along w/ my other guns checked zero. It needed little adjustment and I wound up shooting a big buck vervet monkey with it on a very enjoyable hunt along with an old Zulu farm hand during which we saw a huge python & dodged a green mamba. The old fellow had two iron-hard (ironwood?) knobkerries he carried for self protection. I gave him 10 Rand note for one and still have it, tho I do not have the Marlin. Used that knob stick to kill a trapped coyote some years ago and it was the fastest kill of anything I've ever used. One strike and it was light out. Not a twitch. Pic before, below.

(Sorry for the offtopic droning Nitro!)



9.3x57
(.450 member)
07/09/23 11:55 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Nitro: I remember reading that when George Adamson of "Born Free" notoriety was ambushed he used a .38 revolver against the AK-armed bandits/murderers. He lost of course.

I am guessing that there are a LOT of ex-service weapons...Webley's, Enfields, Smith and Wesson M&P .38/200's and .38 Specials in the possession of pros and locals as well. I remember .38/200 S&W's were cheap when I was in RSA '88-'89. I almost bought one.

Capstick referenced Bob Langeveldt strolling along after a cull, just for insurance, popping downed elephant with a Browning High Power.


DarylS
(.700 member)
08/09/23 02:11 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I'd prefer to carry my 4" M29. I shoot it well and quickly. 20gr. W296 or H110 and hard cast 300gr. FN.
I suppose a cat might ne better dealt with using 180 gr. HPS at 1,400fps. Maybe it doesn't matter.
My little Colt Poice Positive .38SPL would remain home. It also shoots well, but I trust the .38, not at all.


Hunter4752001
(.300 member)
08/09/23 10:48 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I used a Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 Casull, with red dot sight, for my hunt in Eastern Cape. Used it to take a kudu, impala and bushbuck. In the near future I hope to be upgrading to something considerably better made than the Ruger.

I prefer to use a shoulder holster as it's better for a large hunting revolver. Chest holsters seem to be the current fashion with Americans, but they do nothing for me.

Its important to decide whether you want a handgun as a primary hunting weapon, or as a back up for when the rifle isn't in your hands (such as when field dressing game etc). Both uses are valid, but have different considerations. For example: A large magnum calibre revolver or single shot may be your choice as a primary hunting arm whereas a reasonably compact 10mm auto may be better for the back up role.

There are a few websites which specifically cover handgun hunting and may provide a lot more info for those interested.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
10/09/23 04:26 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Quote:

Plenty of youtube footage of African PH's strapping on Glocks in preparation for a guided hunt.
They never mention model or caliber, and never elaborate on whether the hardware is precautionary against lions, poachers, or thugs.




From having owned a few Glocks myself when I lived in Africa I can tell you that they are mostly meant for protection against the two-legged variety of danger. They come in handy when delivering a coup de grace as well, from time to time.




If you can, why not.

Hunting in 1994 in Southern Zimbabwe at one non official road block had his revolver ready. A property owner had decided to have armed men Manning a roadblock on the public track. A bit of a range war going on.

Bandits, thugs, shufta, warvets, all sorts of two legged predators we luckily don't have here yet.

***

As a tourist one usually can't bring or carry a handgun. Attending a target shooting match might allow it? Hiking in bear country, I think one might be handy.

***

Hunting here with a handgun is pretty much illegal. Big stations here can get legal use. The justification is to put down stock when riding on horses or motorbikes.

I believe outfitted in the NT and possibly FNQ might get legal use. One of our DR FNQ members may have used a handgun on hunts.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
11/09/23 06:31 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Nitro:

We can hunt here with a handgun both big game and small and varmints. Grouse, too. Lots of targets of opportunity taken w/ wheelguns and autos of all sorts.

I almost never carry a pistol of any sort when actively hunting or on my hikes if I have a rifle or shotgun, but alone do from time to time as when on ski treks and of course have shot lots of grouse and vermin over the years w/ them.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/09/23 08:25 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I'll please our American members by saying if carrying a handgun on shikar, safari, or hiking or hunting in grizzly country ... I'd probably like to carry a 1911 .45 ACP.

Preferably a 10 round magazine. Spray and pray medicine.

I'll end up with one sooner or later. Can a traditional 1911 be had in 45 ACP with greater than 7 cartridge magazines?

Or a good revolver in .357 Magnum. Probably more useful for elephant or bovines close goring defence, Less useful imo than a semi auto on two legged predators.

Neither are grizzly hand cannons but I'd never own one of them anyway. A .44 magnum revolver might be the closest. I think from close encounter accounts, any decent handgun is better than nothing.

I'm not referring to intentionally hunting with a handgun.

I'll end up with both one day if God smiles on me.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
12/09/23 08:37 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Theoretical.

We love our Howdah double barrelled handguns .577. But would a .455 Webley revolver or a 1911 .45 ACP be more useful shooting a tiger off the back of an elephant?

What do you gentlemen think? Obviously only experienced Howdah riders need reply ... ha ha, not.


degoins
(.333 member)
12/09/23 10:17 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I think the .455 and .45 ACP would be woefully underpowered for that purpose....as would most actual handgun calibers. There's a reason howdah pistols were as large bore as one could manage. IMHO only.

9.3x57
(.450 member)
13/09/23 01:54 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

I think the .455 and .45 ACP would be woefully underpowered for that purpose....as would most actual handgun calibers. There's a reason howdah pistols were as large bore as one could manage. IMHO only.




The .455 is a powder puff and the .45 ACP more or less as well.

Having said that either would be better than nothing.

Years ago I was involved in a fight with a rather small black bear. I emptied a .44 Magnum into it. Each of the shots were lethal but had little noticeable immediate effect on the bear except the first at which it dropped and lay still until dogs pounced on it, when it exploded.

Bear was at my ankles and my then-14-year-old son dove over my shoulder and more or less "bayoneted" it with one round of 7x57R.

Lots of black bear have been killed with handguns and this one would no doubt have succumbed to the first shot had it been left to stiffen up. But the pack of dogs pounced on it and that commenced the rather short but very exciting fight.

I found later that all the Nosler 240 JHP bullets had acted like FMJ's & just poked holes. I recovered one and compared it to one I later tested in my media and it was identical. That was a case where an expanding bullet likely would have finished the fight quicker, maybe a lot quicker, saved some wounds on dogs and a few extra heartbeats on the rest of us, too.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
14/09/23 01:37 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Quote:

I think the .455 and .45 ACP would be woefully underpowered for that purpose....as would most actual handgun calibers. There's a reason howdah pistols were as large bore as one could manage. IMHO only.




The .455 is a powder puff and the .45 ACP more or less as well.

Having said that either would be better than nothing.




As I referred to defensive use and referred to numerous accounts of actual bear attacks. As I said there accounts pretty much showecany decent handgun was useful. In either stopping an attack or lessening it's severity. The threads are on NE. I'm not saying it will kill the best but either prevent the attack following through or lessen it. Phil on here used a 9mm to kill a brown bear in a charge. Lucky but true.

It's not about hunting and killing them.

But anyway, mostly a moot point. Good to discuss and argue about.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
14/09/23 04:17 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think the .455 and .45 ACP would be woefully underpowered for that purpose....as would most actual handgun calibers. There's a reason howdah pistols were as large bore as one could manage. IMHO only.




The .455 is a powder puff and the .45 ACP more or less as well.

Having said that either would be better than nothing.




As I referred to defensive use and referred to numerous accounts of actual bear attacks. As I said there accounts pretty much showecany decent handgun was useful. In either stopping an attack or lessening it's severity. The threads are on NE. I'm not saying it will kill the best but either prevent the attack following through or lessen it. Phil on here used a 9mm to kill a brown bear in a charge. Lucky but true.

It's not about hunting and killing them.

But anyway, mostly a moot point. Good to discuss and argue about.




I understand. Not critiquing your earlier post, actually agreeing with it.

Further thought...w/ modern top flite defense bullets a high cap 9mm might very well beat out the 1911 .45 Auto. If the tiger is on top of you or somebody else you'd care to save, a burst or whole 20 round mag dump from my SIG 320 would be my choice over 7 from a .45. I've killed truckloads of butcher stock w/ 9 and .45 (& some other service calibers). But if a .45 is what you have, who would leave it at home?

I routinely carry the SIG w/ 3 mags on ski treks, 60 rounds all up which gives plenty for signalling in case of injury, etc.





7 & 8 are standard for 1911's and there are a few extra capacity jobs out their boosting it to 10. Not sure how reliable they are. My SIG 320 .45 ACP has a 10-shot mag, Glock fullsize guns have 13.

Maybe the best would be a Glock 20 w/ 15 rounds of 10mm. I had one and it was a lemon, tho. Long story (rather interesting) but it would not run right with full power ammo. Needed a limp wrist hold and lower power ammo to function fully reliably. I since found that others have experienced a similar situation. Some run great.


lancaster
(.470 member)
17/09/23 07:08 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I think the .455 and .45 ACP would be woefully underpowered for that purpose....as would most actual handgun calibers. There's a reason howdah pistols were as large bore as one could manage. IMHO only.




The .455 is a powder puff and the .45 ACP more or less as well.

Having said that either would be better than nothing.




As I referred to defensive use and referred to numerous accounts of actual bear attacks. As I said there accounts pretty much showecany decent handgun was useful. In either stopping an attack or lessening it's severity. The threads are on NE. I'm not saying it will kill the best but either prevent the attack following through or lessen it. Phil on here used a 9mm to kill a brown bear in a charge. Lucky but true.

It's not about hunting and killing them.

But anyway, mostly a moot point. Good to discuss and argue about.




I post it before, the 9 mm is useless at all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f55_mFAOvRA


JHeath
(.224 member)
26/09/23 06:15 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I wounded a badger at about 20 yards with a Colt 1911 Gold Cup National Match, .45acp, 230gr fmj.

Badger then ran straight at me. I kept shooting and the badger slowed and died 10' from me with 4-5 entry wounds.

FMJ is admittedly inefficient but with a grizzly/brown bear I wouldn't have gotten three rounds off. And with a .44 or .454 etc would probably not have gotten off two rounds. My faith in stopping bears lions tigers etc with a handgun is low.

A Montana rancher with grizzly experience pointed out that in a bear encounter you are likely to literally be shooting the bear off you. Consider that if an auto pistol slide presses against anything, the gun is tied. Won't cycle. But reportedly Glock 20 10mm pistols are considered a good alternative to big revolvers.

Bear spray (pepper spray in large cans) is proven more effective bear defense, statistically, than guns. I owned forest land in British Columbia in an area with a dense population of grizzlies. Walking my property I could dangle a can of pepper spray on my finger like it was car keys. With pepper spray, you can immediately deploy it, basically can't miss, and it is proven effective at driving off bears. Occasionally a determined bear returns. It seems to me that the pepper spray is a rapid, almost sure-fire way of making the bear back off, giving you time to ready a firearm. And instead of a 30mph rushing bear, you're then aiming at a hesitating bear. Watch video of charging grizzlies and brown bears: their heads bob around and would make a really tough target.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/09/23 07:28 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Funny how Americans often claim the .455 Webley is underpowered relative to a .45 ACP round ... I've previously proven on NE their ballistics are similar.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/09/23 07:31 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

The handgun defence against bears as proven by some 90 or so accounts of vear attack isn't about being a stopping, killing defence. It was should that if one is hitting the bears it either discourages it from carrying through. When being mailed it discourages it from continuing. Likely to. Probability. I'm not going to repeat an old thread. Search that thread if interested.

If one wants a stopper carry a big note rifle.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/09/23 07:35 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:



Bear spray (pepper spray in large cans) is proven more effective bear defense, statistically, than guns. I owned forest land in British Columbia in an area with a dense population of grizzlies. Walking my property I could dangle a can of pepper spray on my finger like it was car keys. With pepper spray, you can immediately deploy it, basically can't miss, and it is proven effective at driving off bears. Occasionally a determined bear returns. It seems to me that the pepper spray is a rapid, almost sure-fire way of making the bear back off, giving you time to ready a firearm. And instead of a 30mph rushing bear, you're then aiming at a hesitating bear. Watch video of charging grizzlies and brown bears: their heads bob around and would make a really tough target.




Thanks for the comments.

Out of interest how many times have you sprayed a bear? Brown bear and black bears, please separate. Thanks.

Interested in how many times and how effective. Eg if still having to use a firearm?


JHeath
(.224 member)
27/09/23 01:52 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Quote:



Bear spray (pepper spray in large cans) is proven more effective bear defense, statistically, than guns. I owned forest land in British Columbia in an area with a dense population of grizzlies. Walking my property I could dangle a can of pepper spray on my finger like it was car keys. With pepper spray, you can immediately deploy it, basically can't miss, and it is proven effective at driving off bears. Occasionally a determined bear returns. It seems to me that the pepper spray is a rapid, almost sure-fire way of making the bear back off, giving you time to ready a firearm. And instead of a 30mph rushing bear, you're then aiming at a hesitating bear. Watch video of charging grizzlies and brown bears: their heads bob around and would make a really tough target.




Thanks for the comments.

Out of interest how many times have you sprayed a bear? Brown bear and black bears, please separate. Thanks.

Interested in how many times and how effective. Eg if still having to use a firearm?





Bear spray (pepper spray in large cans) is proven more effective bear defense, statistically, than guns. I owned forest land in British Columbia in an area with a dense population of grizzlies. Walking my property I could dangle a can of pepper spray on my finger like it was car keys. With pepper spray, you can immediately deploy it, basically can't miss, and it is proven effective at driving off bears. Occasionally a determined bear returns. It seems to me that the pepper spray is a rapid, almost sure-fire way of making the bear back off, giving you time to ready a firearm. And instead of a 30mph rushing bear, you're then aiming at a hesitating bear. Watch video of charging grizzlies and brown bears: their heads bob around and would make a really tough target.




Thanks for the comments.

Out of interest how many times have you sprayed a bear? Brown bear and black bears, please separate. Thanks.

Interested in how many times and how effective. Eg if still having to use a firearm?





I never sprayed either species of bear, or shot one. Didn't mention that I also lived a while in SE Alaska working on a remote site where the foreman asked me to bring my shotgun to work. Grizzly/brown bear attacks are a situation I've had to seriously consider and prepare-for, but haven't experienced.

On my BC acreage, the trees were so thick an encounter would have been at extremely close range. Much too close to even draw a handgun or un-shoulder a long gun. At the time my immigration status didn't allow a gun permit (I'm American) anyway. Dangling pepper spray on my finger I could have used it which -- per published info -- would be highly likely to cause the bear to leave or at least back off.

Studies consistently report that bear spray is significantly more effective than guns. Everybody thinks that if *they* had the gun, their results would be better than the average. This might have been true for Jim Corbett or WDM Bell with a .450 but is proven to be untrue for the majority. Anecdotally, I've seen numerous reports of people with guns failing to hit or stop bears,, of people shooting their own leg when a bear is on them, of people shooting hunting partners in the melée, etc.

This might be of interest, one of many articles to be found along with published studies:

http://www.bear-hunting.com/2019/8/firearm-vs-bear-spray

My last home was in a small BC mountain town where *black* bears literally roamed the streets. They were considered overgrown raccoons, just laughed off. It was nothing to walk past a house and see a black bear raiding the plum tree in the front yard, or see the neighbor trying to shoo them from his garbage bin on trash day. Scat was on the sidewalk on main street. Black bears routinely got into cars overnight, ate the sandwich wrappers from the back seat and pooped.

But if a grizzly was spotted, people spread the word and became cautious to the point of avoiding walking park trails etc.

A big grizzly is 1.5x the size of an African lion, and a big brown bear is 4x the size of a lion. They are considered far more ill-tempered and determined than black bears. Grizzlies and browns are two different regional populations of the same species, but the browns grow far larger.

I might be moving to Montana, again grizzly country. My unhesitating choice would be to carry spray and have it in hand in thick trees etc. Then also a revolver, in the expectation that I would have time to draw and aim if the spray at least backed off the bear. This is consistent with what I *read* about bears and see of their behavior in videos, and with my experience carrying and shooting handguns. It is based on what I think are reasonable assumptions, not macho posturing about guns or wishful thinking about spray.

Shotgun slugs are considered much more effective than handguns but depending on the activity I might not haul one around.


DarylS
(.700 member)
27/09/23 02:05 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

The Bear Awareness Course I received when working in Forestry by a fellow named Shelton (from Alberta) stated the very best bear protection came from a short 12 bore loaded with slugs.
Buckshot was deemed to be nearly useless on grizzlies although slightly better on black bears. I know from experience that is sucks on large black bears. Slugs do work and work well.
The instructor noted that spray, if applied at 12' or a little less would stop a charging grizzly, whereas shooting it at that same range, it would run you over, whether it was dead or not, due to momentum.
He also noted that in a determined charge, the head is low as-is the bear's body. A "heads-up" bear is likely making a false charge. Note the word "likely".
I had 2, 11 round mags for my .45, back in the 70's, but they were kind of ridiculous, sticking 3" to 4" the handgun.


JHeath
(.224 member)
27/09/23 02:45 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

The Bear Awareness Course I received when working in Forestry by a fellow named Shelton (from Alberta) stated the very best bear protection came from a short 12 bore loaded with slugs.
Buckshot was deemed to be nearly useless on grizzlies although slightly better on black bears. I know from experience that is sucks on large black bears. Slugs do work and work well.
The instructor noted that spray, if applied at 12' or a little less would stop a charging grizzly, whereas shooting it at that same range, it would run you over, whether it was dead or not, due to momentum.
He also noted that in a determined charge, the head is low as-is the bear's body. A "heads-up" bear is likely making a false charge. Note the word "likely".
I had 2, 11 round mags for my .45, back in the 70's, but they were kind of ridiculous, sticking 3" to 4" the handgun.




^^^^^ Daryl has far more experience than me I'm sure. But my understanding is that spray should be deployed at about 30', has a high probability of making the bear leave, with a small number lingering and a very few returning in a determined attack.

The classic story is the client with bear spray who asks the guide, "How much do I put on?"


JHeath
(.224 member)
27/09/23 02:50 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Funny how Americans often claim the .455 Webley is underpowered relative to a .45 ACP round ... I've previously proven on NE their ballistics are similar.





Horse manure. The .45acp when fired from a 1911 has a significantly higher coefficient of pizazz.


DarylS
(.700 member)
27/09/23 09:25 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

My 45 ACP bear load was a 260gr. Speer HP driven by 11.9gr. WW 630 powder. The vel. From my Wilson 5" bl. was 960fps. It would shoot into 2 1/2" for 5 shots at 50yds. off bags.
I don't think the Webly can match that.
I also experimented with 300gr. FN'S with 7.7gr. Blue Dot for 770fps.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
27/09/23 10:37 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

I've used a lot of the old 1873 US Army bullet Lyman 454190 cast from wheel weights in the 1911. It's a semipoint and feeds slick as can be. Weighs 250-262 depending on alloy.

Very deep penetrator.

No more 1911's for me, but I cast a bunch of those Lymans not long ago for my Ruger BH w/ .454 chamber mouths and left a few over for my SIG P320.

Nothing like a 150 year old bullet for a "plastic" gun!


JHeath
(.224 member)
27/09/23 11:00 AM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Quote:

Quote:

Funny how Americans often claim the .455 Webley is underpowered relative to a .45 ACP round ... I've previously proven on NE their ballistics are similar.





Horse manure. The .45acp when fired from a 1911 has a significantly higher coefficient of pizazz.




I ought to have added an "lol" or smiley to that. I winked when I typed it.


eagle27
(.400 member)
27/09/23 02:15 PM
Re: Handguns on Safari and Shikar

Pondoro Taylor used his 455 Webley to drop a lion and a hyena that were marauding around camp at night and while he didn't wear the big revolver when hunting he did keep it handy when in camp.

Like 9.3x57, I too used a lot of the Lyman 454190 cast bullets in my 4" barreled Webley Mk VI and killed quite a bit of game with it; rabbits, possums, hares, a couple of red deer and numerous feral goats. Once had a bunch of goats inside a live deer capture trap, a fenced area of land with plenty of cover and the gate dropped. Owner of trap wanted the goats dispatched so went to it with the Webley. Had to stalk around and got in a few headshots and the rest taken with chest and shoulder shots. My reloads in shortened 45 Colt cases with rims thinned were quite accurate and the 250gr flat pointed cast slug worked well.
Also shot a farm cattle beast that had sustained a broken leg out in some rough country, got to within 5 or so yards of the animal in the scrub and dropped it cold with a head shot from the Webley.

While I wouldn't expect to stop a charge from a large animal with a Webley 455, unless a head shot could be got in, I would sooner have the big reliable Webley to hand than anything smaller in the handgun field.



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