| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 01/12/07 03:49 AM |
50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Just wanted to pipe up. I've been quiet for some time. My big news is I have Bonanza's brother, Jason making me a 50-90 short barreled 20 inch) conversion gun using an older MERKEL 12 gauge. He is in regulation phase. Now!!!
He is using Pac-Nor barrels 1-15 twist, .510 grooves, .500 lands. He is regulating it with Woodleigh .510 dia., 535 GRAIN soft nosed bullets in starline 50-90 brass. He is playing with about 80-90 grains of Reloader 15 powder. This double barrel cannon should be an incredible stopper gun! I am most anxious to get it in my hands. Then for target shooting and hunting deer, etc I will most likely use about 65 grains of Varget with 425 grain CP's bullets.
I also bought a 50 year old Russell Arms exposed hammer, double barrel, 12 gauge with 18 inch barrels as a gun to shoot shot with. I heard it was a retired cowboy shooter's gun and he won alot of competitions with it. It is choked tight so that should help counter the short barrels and be a great close cover gun.
I am also still loading up round ball loads for my double barrel smooth bore 12 gauge slug gun. I appreciated all the help from Daryl and others here, on the best way to load and pour roundballs to get better performance and penetration and accuracy. I am still working on all 3!
I am not sure how to post pictures here, but I could email the pictures of the vintage Russell Arms 12 gauge double to someone else and then they could post them. It is a fine looker. I really like the wood on so many of the older doubles shotguns and rifles!
Great to be back here and I can't wait to learn about new stuff and get familiarized with what I might have missed while I was gone!!!
When I get the Merkel 50-90 conversion in my hands I would really like to post pictures here, too!
CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 01/12/07 06:08 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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By all means please keep us informed of progress on your 50-90 and post photos on the DR Photo & Archive forum. If you need help with the photos, contact me.
Curl
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 01/12/07 06:25 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Hey cptcurl---
If I wanted to post pictures on this forum of that 18 inch long barreled Russell Arms 12 gauge double could you send me an address so I can attach the pictures? And yes once I get that 50-90 "Merkel" I would really like to post pictures here.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 01/12/07 08:26 AM |
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Sure. Just email the photos to stephens@cfw.com.
Curl
| Bramble |
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| 01/12/07 10:18 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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I'm curious. How will you get 2 very different loads to shoot to the same point after regulation?
I,ve tried shooting a lighter load in my 450#2 and it is very different.
Regards
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 01/12/07 11:08 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Bramble,
1. Start with the load that works best with the standard bullet weight. For your rifle, that is a 480 grain Woodleigh.
2. Take a lighter bullet of the same shape (RN, FP, whatever) and shoot the same load, very carefully.
3. If all works out, it should shoot low. Don't worry too much it they don't cross.
4. Back off 1 grain at a time until you are shooting a reasonable group.
5. Above all, you must keep meticulous records and shoot very very precisely.
This has worked for me every time.
| mehulkamdar |
| (.416 member) |
| 01/12/07 04:10 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Yogi000,
Advance congratulations and we shall look forward to the pics whenever you find time to post them.
Good hunting!
| Bill_Cooley |
| (.300 member) |
| 03/12/07 01:23 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Should be a fun gun.
Bill
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 04/12/07 06:40 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Bramble--- I have been told that you can regulate a double with a lower bullet weight and lower powder charge. It is done often and the reasons are abundant. I want to be able to hunt deer with my 50-90 yet a 535 grain woodleigh at over 2000 fps would be devastating. Also, I want to punch holes in paper with regularity with this double and do not want the heavy recoil. And, part of punching holes in paper is that the bullets should hit point of aim! Thus a regulated lower powder charge / lighter bullet makes sense.
Yet the original purpose of this gun is a 'stopper gun'.... something that can take almost anything down. Thus the gun is being regulated first with a heavy bullet and heavy charge... after that is accomplished the gunsmith works out a variety of lighter loads and lighter weights to find the "lighter" bullet/powder combination that ALSO hits to point of aim.
Thus, in many ways you can get TWO guns with a double. That is: IF you can get two loads to regulate satisfactorily!
| Bramble |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/12/07 12:08 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Hummmm.
Not sure if we are all talking about the same thing here , that's why I asked Bonanza the question. His post seems to indicate that you can get a rifle to regulate ie both barrels shooting to same point of aim with a different weight of head and different charge, but with a lower POI. Yes that I can see and is no different to re-regulating an old double.
However what I cant get my head around is using a lighter weight head and less velocity for a practice load and getting it to shoot to the same POI as the full house loads, shoot together yes but the same POI??. My experience with pistols and BA rifles suggests that it cannot be done. And If you drive the lighter head faster to raise the POI then you end up with the same recoil or worse because of a faster recoil pulse.
Regards
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 31/12/07 12:44 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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I-too am interested in the results with your double .50, Yogi000. Chronographed loads, etc.
| Bill_Cooley |
| (.300 member) |
| 31/12/07 02:20 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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The best thing to do is to experiment. I would start with the powder charge that you need for your full house regulated load. Then try a bullet that is 70 to 75% of the bullet you have it regulated for. Some of the older rifles were showen to shoot several weight bullets to the same point of aim.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Bill
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NitroX
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| 01/01/08 02:23 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Quote:
Hummmm.
Not sure if we are all talking about the same thing here , that's why I asked Bonanza the question. His post seems to indicate that you can get a rifle to regulate ie both barrels shooting to same point of aim with a different weight of head and different charge, but with a lower POI. Yes that I can see and is no different to re-regulating an old double.
However what I cant get my head around is using a lighter weight head and less velocity for a practice load and getting it to shoot to the same POI as the full house loads, shoot together yes but the same POI??. My experience with pistols and BA rifles suggests that it cannot be done. And If you drive the lighter head faster to raise the POI then you end up with the same recoil or worse because of a faster recoil pulse.
Regards
Bramble
450NENo2 on these forums believes there is a 75% rule. That is if you use a bullet with approx 75% of the same weight as the standard regulated one with the same powder charge you will get the same point of impact and regulation.
He says it has worked many times.
I don't know why, but I guess it may have something to do with less barrel flip vs higher velocity?
Obviously use a filler if needed.
So for a .450 with a 480 gr projectile, try a 350 gr with the same powder weight.
If you try it please report back.
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NitroX
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| 01/01/08 02:24 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Yogi
Please keep us informed on these projects and photos would be GREAT!
| Bramble |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/01/08 06:47 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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I will indeed try it after the Pheasent season is over as my pal cannot have me disturb his birds at this time of year.
If anybody has half a dozen jacketed .458's in that weight range please PM me and I will give you an address to pop them in the post. I won't do it with cast, as the last time I did the leading in my barrels took a lot of work and heartache to remove. :-(
Regards
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 02/01/08 04:31 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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What sort of ballistics can one expect from a .50/90 in a double barrel?
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/01/08 04:07 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Quote From Chuck Hawks--- "The .50-90 Sharps came about when buffalo hunters clamored for more powerful loads with increased killing power. The .50-90 became one of the mainstay cartridges of the buffalo runners. Its case is a rimmed, straight taper type with a base diameter of .565" and a neck diameter of .528". Case length was 2.5" and COL was 3.2" It used .509" diameter bullets."
Actually the bullets that Jason Simpkins recommended I buy are .511 in diameter. The Woodleigh's are solids, round nose and cased, and weigh in at a whopping 535 grains; the Performance Casts (PC) have a very flat nose (Metplat) are solid lead, and weigh 525 grain; there is also the LOW WEIGHT load and it is a Performance Cast that weighs in at 435 grain, also with a flat nose, solid lead. The low weight PC's are also being Regulated in this gun.... someone else mentioned a bullet with about 75% of the weight and lower (and a different) powder can be regulated to hit at the same point of aim as a regular, heavy hunting load.
The Woodleighs are being regulated to be buzzing at over 2000 FPS which means Muzzle Energy in the high 4000's. A bit under 5000 pounds!
Jason is working on regulating the barrels for a nice composite group at 75 yards. I do not know what the energy would be at 75 yards but I suspect it will still be carrying a hell of a wallop.
I primarily want this as a 0 to 50-60 yard gun. A stopper gun when I shoot the Woodleighs or the heavy PC's for hogs to big cats, and a double gun I can shoot lower weight bullets (ie the 425 grainers) with much less powder and use it for deer, etc.
I really am looking forward to seeing how it carries with those 20 inch barrels, esecially because I often hunt in heavy cover... The trick is to see how well she points with those 20 inch barrels...
I suspect this gun as a stopper gun with full loads (535 grain round nosed, Woodleighs with about 90 grains of Reloder 15 smokeless powder tossing that bullet at over 2000 FPS ) would be able to take down just about any animal on the planet. As we all know placement is key but there is certainly reason to see, ballistically, the 50-90 at over 2000 FPS does rival the better known African loads. A .511 diameter and weighty Woodleigh flying that fast is a profound killing round.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/01/08 05:28 AM |
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Although I almost choke on the words, don't forget to try some of the inline-type sabots with lighter bullets. Finding .50 cal. bullets that weigh 350gr. to 380gr. might be impossible or quite difficult, but the use of .50 cal sabots and .458 cast bulelts opens the doors for any weight due to the proliferation of bullets of taht size.
: I know you're having the .50/90 made to shoot .50 cal bullets, but for deer or other small game, a .458 bullet in a sabot might give you the light load regulation you want.
; I think there's a 330gr. .50 bullet Lyman mould still available, then the pointy 450gr. Lyman/Lee and 450gr. RCBS flat nose, 520gr. Lyman FN and 550gr. RCBS FN (these weights are with my alloys)
; One other suggestion - I shoot either straight WW metal in my .50's, or 1/2 WW and 1/2 pure lead. With a BP lube like Lyman Black Powder Gold, SPG or OxYoke stick, I've driven 450gr. bullets from the Lyman mould to 2,000fps without leading and 1-1/2" accuracy at 100 meters (iron sights). The WW bullets will expand or rivet somewhat, but the 1/2 and 1/2 ones are super expanders on heavy game.
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 04/01/08 02:39 AM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Yes I will try some of those inline sabots in my 50-90.
Actually I have a friend making me up some for my 12 gauge double slugger, too. They are much lighter and smaller in diameter (the actually lead projectile, that is) than anything I have tried in my 12 gauge.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 04/01/08 02:53 AM |
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Lyman has some 20 bore loads listed in #2 book that use 440gr., .54 cal. bullets in 20 bore shotcups. Some of the Black Powder guys with 12 bore doubles for waterfowl used to drop 1 or 2 20 bore balls into a 12 bore shot cup for moose while duck hunting - left barrel was kept loaded for moose, right barrel for ducks. Using a shotgun on moose or elk isn't legal here, but it has been known to happen. A double ball gun on the other hand, specifically for shooting ball would probably pass muster in a court of law. The rear sight would help considerably in the argument.
| Yogi000 |
| (.333 member) |
| 07/03/08 08:37 AM |
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Just to let all those know who might be interested. I still do not have my 50-90 yet. Had a last minute snafu. I was supposed to have it about 2 weeks ago. Now it looks like "very soon".
In the meantime I have taken a shine to flintlock round ball shooting. I had to so something while waiting! haha
I am having "a ball" with this black powder round ball shooting! It really is "a blast".... puns intended!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 07/03/08 01:05 PM |
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Re: 50-90 Double Barrel Rifle and More
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Have you visited ALR, Yogi000? www.americanlongrifles.com
: Most or at least many of the guys there are flint shooters with the best rifle makers in North America.