| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/03/07 02:33 PM |
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Favourite Caliber
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Let's forget about availability of ammunition.
If you could only have one Double Rifle what would it be.
For me it would be the 375 fl. as I would feel adequately armed to hunt anything in the World under ideal conditions and must everything under less than ideal circumstance.
| Dave_Hall |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/03/07 05:58 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I love the .458 bullet,so it would be the 450 Nitro.I can use it on any big game animal here in PA.,and around the world.The biggest animal I want to hunt is the Hippo one on land would be nice.I'd like to take a Cape or two with it,too.I wouldn't be real picky on who made it if I bought one used.Tough to find a 450 used the good selection starts at 500 most of the time.Dave
| hoppdoc |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/03/07 08:02 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I speak very much as a newbie on Doubles, and although I enjoy my 500NE,
I sure would love to have a full featured 450/400 with a qd scope setup.
That would just be plain SEXY!!
CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 28/03/07 09:26 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Mick, I think I'm with you on the .375 Flanged Magnum.
But I am not opposed to the .375 Belted Magnum either. Lots of people sit in their armchairs and opine that the belted round is unacceptable for being "high pressure" and "rimless". I find neither feature particularly distracting. I load my belted magnum to the "Graeme Wright recommended load" for .375 Flanged, which he tested at 14 tons. There goes the "high pressure" issue. This load is mild and regulates fine. On the other issue, I have never had any difficulty with rimless extraction in any of my double rifles.
I agree that the best of all worlds is a flanged cartridge of low to moderate pressure. On the other hand, there's something really satisfying when I order 100 rounds of .375 Belted Magnum from Midway for peanuts.
By the way, I have one .375 Flanged Magnum and two .375 Belted Magnum double rifles.
Curl
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 28/03/07 09:58 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Agree
375 Cal - H&H or Flanged Magnum.
By the way, I have two Doubles in .375 Flanged Magnum and
Doubles in two .375 Belted Magnum !
| bwana600nitro |
| (.224 member) |
| 29/03/07 12:04 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Well,
I always wanted a 476 nitro, but the sweetest shooting double, If I could have one would be a brand new FAMARS 450/400 3". Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
Ed
| AzGuy |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/03/07 01:46 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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This is starting to sound like a 375 fan club!
Quote:
Let's forget about availability of ammunition.
With the above "qualifier" in mind, the 375 Flg. But I like Curl's idea/practice of inexpensive factory ammo. Does anyone produce factory 375 Flg. ammo?
Curl & 500: What are the weights of your various 375's ?
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 29/03/07 04:41 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Arizona,
Kynoch lists .375 Flanged at this URL:
http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/
Weights:
Merkel 323E .375 Belted Mag. - 9.24 lbs. No scope.
Ludwig Borovnik .375 Belted Mag. - 10.46 lbs. w/o scope; 11.82 lbs. w/ 1.5-6 Swarovski scope.
Holland & Holland Royal Hammerless Ejector .375 Flanged Magnum - not yet weighed!
I'll have to remember to weigh the H&H and maybe report back. I would guess it weighs an amount similar to the Borovnik.
Curl
| pistolchamp |
| (.224 member) |
| 29/03/07 05:44 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Holy Cow Mickey, you're mean, only one double rifle??????????
Okay, I just joined the club... 375 H&H belted for me. Its no joke that its about the most popular caliber and it works, that's probably why its the most popular.
I have one in the Ruger #1H and an old Holland sidelock... pretty, made in 1931.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 29/03/07 06:27 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Arizona
"This is starting to sound like a 375 fan club!"
No, just after Curl's comment, I had to post.
I did think long and hard but have had heaps of
fun with my 375 Bolt's and doubles and they will
"within reason" do everything on th eplanet +
you have 235 - 350 grain bullets available
which again covers everything.
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/03/07 09:17 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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If I could have only one rifle, of any kind, it would be a 375 H&H bolt/single shot, or a 375FL Magnum in a double rifle! ONE rifle for the planet!
| 470evans |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/03/07 10:21 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Here is a nice looking 375 rimless for those that like them.
http://www.hallowellco.com/hambrusch%20BLE%20375.htm
| AzGuy |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/03/07 02:02 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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According to the Hallowell website, that particular rifle is NOT a 375 Flanged but a belted magnum. Plus it has been "magnaported"......how sad.
| BigFiveJack |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/03/07 03:06 PM |
Re: Favourite Caliber
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Quote:
According to the Hallowell website, that particular rifle is NOT a 375 Flanged but a belted magnum. Plus it has been "magnaported"......how sad.
Thirteen inch LOP, very SHORT too!
| bigdog |
| (.375 member) |
| 29/03/07 11:48 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Only one double is not a good thing, but I would choose the 500 nitro 3 1/4" round. Big enough for anything.
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/03/07 06:19 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I have used 3 doubles quite a bit.
A 450 No2, a 450/400 3 1/4" both British and a scoped 9,3x74R.
I like them all, and in truth would not like to be without all 3.
My 450 No2 is my favorite rifle of all time.
The 9,3 Chapuis is one of ther best hunting rifles on the planet, under 40 cal.
I recently had my 450/400 scoped with a 1.1-4 S&B in claw mounts.
The 450/400 cartridge may be the best for the modern sport hunter.
IF, I could only have one double the scoped 450/400 3 1/4" would be my choice.
With 300gr Hawks for small stuff, and 400 gr Woodleigh Softs and Solids for everything else, it can do the job.
I have killed deer, pigs, 2 caribou, black bear, baboon, warthog, cape buff, bull elephant, and lion with it.
But I sure would miss the other 2.
| DM |
| (.300 member) |
| 30/03/07 09:35 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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If i stayed in NA, the 9.3x74R would do nicely... If i only hunted here in the lower 48 states and could get a DR that weighed no more than 7 pounds, the 7x65R would be all i'd ever need.
DM
| nitro476 |
| (.300 member) |
| 15/04/07 05:41 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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My 476 Westley Richards or an old Rigby 470 with 28" barrels. Both were incredibly accurate!
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 15/04/07 06:28 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Maybe not as versatile as the 375 flanged but versatile in its own right, a 12 bore magnum paradox or a super magnum explora. The quest for a paradox is what began my interest in doubles.
| dnovo |
| (.333 member) |
| 15/04/07 09:23 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Ah, another 476 WR owner! If I had to keep just one of my doubles (and I'd rather cut off an arm rather than get rid of any of them) it would be my 1907 WR Droplock (sorry, more properly, 'detachable locks.') The 476 shots wonderfully, has all the 'omph' you'd need to put down anything short of an enraged Abrahms tank, and ammo is now readily available from WR here in the US and, I presume, from the company in England. (It is loaded by Wolfgang Romey, I understand, sorry for the spelling.) Dave
| dnovo |
| (.333 member) |
| 15/04/07 09:43 AM |
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H
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"According to the Hallowell website, that particular rifle is NOT a 375 Flanged but a belted magnum. Plus it has been "magnaported"......how sad. Thirteen inch LOP, very SHORT too!"
Yes, not an issue, and not for the right person.
The rifle in question is no longer at Morris' site, it is in my gunroom. And there is a 'why' to all of the issues raised in the responses.
The 375 H&H is a much easier to locate (and much less expensive to shot) cartridge than its slightly less powerful Flanged brother. Less 'traditional?' Perhaps, although I would venture to say that for every 375 Flanged double, there are 15 chambered in the belted, rimless H&H (and in the same ratio from the birthplace of both rounds, Holland & Holland.) And, the 375 H&H is not the ultra high pressure, abrupt recoil load that the more modern powerhouses such as the 375 Ultamag or my least favorite, nastiest recoiling cartridge on the planet, the 'shot it once, three rounds were enough to send me off to a friend's 600 NE to relax' 378 Weatherby. The 375 H&H is a pleasure to shoot even without porting.
But why port this one? The rifle was built for a woman to shoot, and given its dimensions, a slight woman at that. The name 'Sue' on the trigger guard is a dead give away. That is one reason I bought it, my 5'2" 90 pound wife finds the porting works for her and the LOP is great for her as well. And the porting is done as discreetly as can be. Uses a series of small holes, very tiny and hard to spot unless you are looking for them.
The 'upside' of this rifle is the incredible condition, the wonderful fit and finish, engraving, accuracy (it shoots very well) and the fact that, with the fitted case -- which is built like a bank vault itself-- and the features, it was a steal.
Now, when she lets me shot it, a slip on pad 'cures' the LOP issue for me.
Horses for courses and rifles for specific types of shooters. This rifle was built for a specific purpose and fits the bill admirably. Dave
|
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 15/04/07 05:09 PM |
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H
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dnovo
That is a fine looking rifle you have purchased. And what a lucky wife you have to be given such a nice .375 double.
You can see from the description and the photos that the rifle was made with personal specifications for the original buyer. For example the single trigger is a little unusual from that maker.
I like it and if it balances well and is a light rifle it must be very use to use - when you add the "slip on pad".
Now is your wife's name "Sue" as well?
PS I think I am going to add that rifle to the "archive" forum with your desription as well if you don't mind.
| dnovo |
| (.333 member) |
| 16/04/07 03:31 AM |
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H
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No, her name isn't Sue, although that would have made the purchase mandatory. Just brought it back from the range with her this morning. Nice day her is Cheeseland. She only needed a handful of rounds to get it sighted in perfectly. I then traded off with her and shot the Hambrusch while she shot my Hoenig Rotary in 9.3X74R. She liked her rifle better, I like the Hoenig better, as the two cartridges perform about the same. The porting on the Hambrusch, IMHO doesn't so much impact on recoil as on muzzle flip, which she appreciates handling a stout rifle for a small lady. On the other hand, my Hoening defines tack driver in a double, and the action is butter smooth, so I am biased in favor of that rifle. But arent' we all biased in favor of something, so hardly a scientific comparsion. Dave (P.S. Use the photos as you wish.)
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 16/04/07 04:13 AM |
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H
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dnovo
Regarding your comment
"although I would venture to say that for every 375 Flanged double, there are 15 chambered in the belted, rimless H&H (and in the same ratio from the birthplace of both rounds, Holland & Holland.) "
Where did you get these figures from ?
Especially the "and in the same ratio from the birthplace of both rounds, Holland & Holland.)"
If the 2nd hand market of Doubles is anything to go by, I am not so sure that that many DR's have been made in 375H&H (ie NOT Flanged).
And I am not counting modern DR's like Chauis, Merkel etc
in the numbers - keep it old and English !!!
| dnovo |
| (.333 member) |
| 16/04/07 11:23 AM |
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H
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No, you are correct, if we keep it 'old and English.' The belted rimless cartridge emerged (in DRs not bolt actions) as a choice only after WWI and then most strongly after WWII in doubles. This was especially so when many of the older Nitro cartridges became hard to get and the 375 H&H was easy to obtain. (This is about the same time you begin to see DRs in calibers such as 300 H&H, 300 WinMag and (although I have never fathomed this) the 458 Win Mag.
I got my figures on H&H from their London location when I went there to drool over a DR one of my British counterparts who was picking, up a new double in 375 H&H from the mothership. I asked them how many 375 Flanged they had made recently and came up with my numbers from that source. The lack of readily available ammunition and the fact that you can find the belted rimless anywhere seems to be the deciding factor. Apparently, since the mid-war period and through today, the belted rimless does outsell the flanged version by the factor I noted.
I do keep my eye on both types of DRs, SXS and O/U and get some of my thoughts from that source. The latter seem to come primarily from German and Austrian makers, and the number of 20s and 30s O/Us in 375 H&H predominate, and from the later 40s on, if it is a 375 in an O/U it is almost always the H&H rather than the flanged version. (Come to think of it, I can't recall seeing an O/U in a 375 Flanged, but I do recall a WR Ovundo in a 375 H&H.) If you do not restrict yourself to 'old and British', you will see most post 1950 DRs that are chambered in 375 in the belted iteration and virtually nada in the Flanged.
Of course, most Continental O/Us and even SXS for this type of usage would not be in any 375, the 9.3X74R filling the niche of the less-often seen 375 Flanged very nicely. Given the ready availability of the excellent 9.3X74R and the lower prices of the number of post 1950 through modern guns you can buy 'off the shelf' today, the equally-elderly German developed 9.3 is by far the dominant cartridge in today's double market.
(And, not too shabby a choice at that. I love my Hoeing Rotary, and George's choice of the 9.3X74R as the largest round he chambers this unique and special DR for was not just based on his German heritage, this is one fine choice and loaded by Norma, Lapua, etc, it is consistent and accurate.)
But if you have a nice, 1910-1930's vintage gathering dust down there, and want to get it out of your hair, I wouldn't say no.
Dave
| zimhunter |
| (.333 member) |
| 17/04/07 03:53 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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One double for me would have to be a medium weight scoped 9.3x74r. By medium weight I mean around 9# loaded with scope of about 1.5x5 in claw mounts. Set trigger on one barrel. Make of choice would probably be Heym, ejectors with selector switch. You would then be well equipped to take ANY game in the world from closeup out to about 300yds. Not too heavy to carry all day not too much recoil to shoot all day.
| Rustyzipper |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/04/07 12:23 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I have a 412 in 9.3 and have little experience with doubles. Big bores; I have shot and owned a few that qualify. But I still think for my use a quality 450-400 double would fill the bill. Rustyzipper
| Safarischorsch |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/04/07 05:12 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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No doubt: .450 N.E. 3 1/4 cause i like diameter .458 and i like the possibility of using small double rifles.
With the .450 its pssible to built a small DR with a powerfull cartridge...
| Schamankungulo |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/04/07 11:44 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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One and only one ?? Jeesh you guys are tuff to deal with here ..
I hadda 470 and now have a 500 , love both , lean to the 500 , but one ?? Well since it's someone else dime here ..
Royal Deluxe 577
| 500grains |
| (.416 member) |
| 23/04/07 12:32 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I own a double for the purpose of getting very close to elephants. So the caliber should be the biggest that I can handle. However, I am not brute enough to carry a 13 to 16 pound rifle on a long stalk. So that leaves out the .577 and .600. Thus I settled on the .500 NE as being the most power I could get out of a double in a rifle light enough for me to carry on a long stalk at a rapid pace.
| hoppdoc |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/04/07 03:28 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Pure conjecture NOT based on experience but if I had a favorite Elephant Double I would have to agree with Mickey and I believe Marrakai who believe that the 577 Light Magnum with the 2 3/4 case as a primo candidate.A 750 grain solid at 1850 should penetrate well and have major smack as well.
The recoil should be similar to a 500 NE so I would think you could build such a Double in the 11 pound range and carry it all day.
Lacking a 577 I will be happy to use my 500 NE without complaint.If I do my part shooting dead is still dead.
| hoppdoc |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/04/07 06:52 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Conjecture is just conjecture and if unsupported by facts it is
misleading.
A review here and on 470 Mbogo.com suggests the 650 gr 577 light lacks penetration on Ele at difficult angles. Whether the 750 gr solid compensates for this at 200 fps less than the full 577 NE is unknown.Perhaps others here could enlighten me regarding its performance and penetration on Ele.
http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBoreCompendium/
In any event the penetration of the 500 NE is not in doubt and is great!! No flies on this cartridge!
http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBores/BigBores7.html
| Rigby |
| (.224 member) |
| 27/04/07 10:05 AM |
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H
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I have several doubles 375 flanged 470ne and 577ne all by John Rigby and Co.They all shoot wonderfully.The 375 is easy for any game hate not to have that stopping power though.I just joined the site yesterday.I look forward to everyones insites.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 27/04/07 12:59 PM |
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H
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Rigby, welcome aboard! It sounds like you are well equipped. Please join in. We need your insights and experience.
Curl
| 500grains |
| (.416 member) |
| 27/04/07 11:31 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Quote:
Pure conjecture NOT based on experience but if I had a favorite Elephant Double I would have to agree with Mickey and I believe Marrakai who believe that the 577 Light Magnum with the 2 3/4 case as a primo candidate.A 750 grain solid at 1850 should penetrate well and have major smack as well.
I used a .585 nyati on elephant and buffalo. It was pushing a 750 grain solid at 2250 fps. I only got 3.5 feet of penetration, which is not very impressive. Drop the velocity by 400 fps? It should be fine for buffalo, but would not be my first choice for frontal brain shots on elephant.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 28/04/07 12:42 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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: First choice would be a 14 bore, double percussion English Sporting Rifle with 95" twist for round ball.
: In a modern-type rifle with no regard to ammo availablity - Easy - .360 #2 - or for easy ammo access 9.3x74 - pretty much the same thing, ballistics-wise.
: I just finished re-reading African Rifles and Ctgs. again for the third or 4th time and John Taylor has rekindled my love of medium bores and my desire for a nice light double.
| ducota |
| (.275 member) |
| 28/04/07 08:07 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Hello everybody, it's my first day here and I chose this topic to break the ice.
As for doubles I have a CCS25 FN Browning O/U custom grade 9,3X74R which I often use here in Portugal for wild boar, red and fallow dear and a 470 NE Krieghoff which I've used for hipo and buf in Mozambique. I handload for both without any major problem.
About the Krieghoff, I would like to listen to more experienced advices about ejectors on doubles for dangerous game. Mine doesn't have ejectors and the classics are not unanimous about this issue, some stating that such a double is useless while others saying they would never use a double with ejectors over dangerous game. Anyway most of these people hunted many years ago under very different circunstances. What about it?
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 28/04/07 01:19 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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ducota,
Welcome to nitroexpress.com. You have come to a fine community. I agree that the 9.3x74R is a top-line caliber.
Please post a lot.
Curl
| empirevr |
| (.375 member) |
| 01/05/07 07:15 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Only one for everything? So for your buck and pig to rhino and elephant? That then to me must be a round that can be loaded up and down.....
A tricky one but ok for modern a .500 nitro and for old a .577 express i guess.
If only one and expected to hunt the world over then a cape instead please!!! How much rabbit is left after being hit with a heavy game round??? How much pigeon?
Ben
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 01/05/07 07:08 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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A good argument for the 12-bore Magnum Paradox, empirevr!
...or a Paradox No.10 or 8 if jumbo is to be included in the bag!
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/05/07 03:02 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Marrikai
I will surely second that statement!
| empirevr |
| (.375 member) |
| 10/05/07 07:53 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Hmm, true......
Now, let me tell you what i cant get then hang of with regards to paradoxes.
How do you tell if one is an original paradox gun or a shotgun someone added sights to later?
A H&H 12b paradox went at Holt's, and weighed 6lb 10 ounces.......
Sounds like a painful, and perhaps even weak gun to be firing a 12b big game round from, be it conical or ball...ball seems easy i suppose, but what did paradoxes fire?
Why not get a 12b and 'paradox' it? a good 3" mag fowler.......
Lyon and Lyon jungle gun anyone?
Ben
| dnovo |
| (.333 member) |
| 10/05/07 09:50 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I am not a fan of light for 'light' sake and some of the numbers I have seen floating around this and other threads for 11 pounds or less in these rifles makes me a bit nervous. I have been quietly waiting for the 'right' 577 to surface. By 'right' I mean a gun in good condition. Bores are the principal focus, followed by the necessary internal parts, etc as trying to find a part for a Westley, A&N, or other British double that could be 100 years old or more is not going to be an easy task. As far as tightening up the action, aligning the face, etc, I would be willing to bet that JJ or several others can take care of that, refit and go through pretty much anything I would need. Even a reblue or recase-colored by a good craftman will give you a rifle that looks and shots like new.
But, you can't change basics. I was lusting after a Belguim built 577 that was of recent build, looked great and was not priced out of sight. I checked the specs listed by the dealer and said no. Issue? Just under 11 pounds for a 577. I feel about 13.5 to 14.5 would be the range I'd want in a 750 gr gun, and at 10.75 or 11 pounds, it may be easy to carry, but you'd better drop that sucker with the first round because you are not going to be recovering real fast for the second barrel! I'm not recoil sensitive, and have a penchant for some fairly hairy outfits but I uncorked a pair of 750s in a 11.6 pound Alex Henry and said, 'thanks but no thanks.' And, since the conventional wisdom is that a 650gr load isn't that much of an improvement over say a 500 Nitro, then why bother with the far greater expense and other issues just to have something that is neither fish nor fowl?
I'm also not going out to stalk anything more aggressive than my mother-in-law without shooting my rifle enough to be comfortable with it and be able to use it instinctively if the feces strikes the rotating air circulation device. A couple practice rounds with a light 577 and Mr. Flinch should be a permenant resident. So, you buy a gun that is lighter and easier to tote, but then really can't get comfortable enough to shot it well. Okay, perhaps you can, but most of us aren't going to find ourselves becoming at ease with a rifle that is a handful with everything sacrificed to be more 'portable' than a gun two pounds heavier or a 500 Nitro of the same or even a bit less weight.
Thanks but no thanks. Get a 500NE and get the same job done without the pain. Dave
| hoppdoc |
| (.400 member) |
| 10/05/07 11:34 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Dave--
The numbers work out to 50% more recoil for the 577 with an 11.5 pnd rifle and 104 ftpnds of recoil.
Betcha if you were carrying that 11 pounder and "the feces hit the fan" you wouldn't even remember the recoil!!
All you would remember would be the massive Ele trumpeting and charging you to turn you into toe jam.
But Contrare to hunting- shooting a lightweight 577 for regulation and sights would be quite memorable and painful.
I would certainly agree that a 500 NE would be the better practical pick at that weight.
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 10/05/07 03:04 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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empirevr,
It is the choke rifling that allows the paradox to shoot an elongated bullet much heavier than a round ball of the same diameter out too say 150yds and with a more aerodynamic capped bullet 300yds. It is also that rifling that allows the same gun to shoot good shot patterns. I would think a paradox would be extremely difficult to recreate or misrepresent. The smooth bore run of the bullet greatly reduces the felt recoil, truely in all ways a paradox.
9 groove
[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=493972&c=500&z=1"]
[/url]7 groove
[url=http://www.hunt101.com/img/492643.jpg]ht[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=492643&c=500&z=1"]
[/url]tp://www.hunt101.com/img/492643.jpg[/url]
| dnovo |
| (.333 member) |
| 10/05/07 11:18 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I am in the process of gearing up to put together some loads for my Cogswell 12 bore 'Paradox' (Cogswell's trade name for their version was "Cosmos") but looking done the bores, it has the same basic pattern of short, tight rifling at the end of each barrel. I am not aiming for the 'stomp the buffalo' load at first, but I am looking forward to seeing how accuary, recoil, etc stacks up against my more traditional British DRs. Dave
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 11/05/07 01:23 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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The modified chokes of a single or double shotgun could easily be rifled, using a muzzleloading-type rifling machine. I expect to do just this, this coming summer with an old gunsmith friend of mine from Kelona, B.C. He's rifled a few barrels in the past by hand and feels it a simple job to rifle a shotgun's choke, like the Paradox guns of the 19th century. I agree. A square twisted rod of correct twist rate, held in a yoke is all that's necessary to turn the cutter - much the same fashion as used in the 19th century. Time and energy is required, of course.
: I suggest improved modified as that will give .010" depth per side in a standard 12 of .730", whereas full choke would leave .020" per side due to it's 40 points of choke.
: I do not know the measurements of chokes in more modern 'over bored' shotguns wiht .735" to .740" bores.
: The bores shown above appear to have very deep rifling indeed - fully .015" anyway - maybe .020". Perhaps a full choke is the proper one to rifle.
: Any modern shotgun should handle 1-1/2 ounce of lead at up to 1,400fps. 1-1/2 oz. is 650gr. Incidently, if cloth patched in the case, slightly undersize solid round balls should work to 1,600fps, a full 100fps faster than the heaviest 12 bore load of the 1870's and 80's. For them, it took 190gr. black powder. For us, it's about 26gr. (just a guess - not loading data) of Hodgdon's Longshot, shotgun powder.
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 11/05/07 09:15 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Daryl
Simply rifling a choke does not make a paradox unless the gun will regulate and pattern with shot also. Typically there are more than 40 points of choke in a 12 bore paradox shooting a 730gr to 750gr bullet. The paradox is slightly heavier than a standard 12 with the weight being applied in the barrel walls.
| dnovo |
| (.333 member) |
| 11/05/07 09:26 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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The last post shows why this is a unique group. Where else on the Web, or anywhere else, would you get the straight dope on something this arcane but also so important? I am glad I stubbled across this site and joined up. You guys are the best.
Dave
| empirevr |
| (.375 member) |
| 11/05/07 08:03 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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I'll second that, Dave.
+1
Guys...is the Lyon and Lyon jungle gun a paradox then?
Any of you ever considered one of those Baikal 'coach' gun shotguns for some kind of adaption? Hammer with 26" barrels, looks tough as anything......
Ben
| Marrakai |
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| 11/05/07 11:28 PM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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Quote:
chokes of a single or double shotgun could easily be rifled
Daryl:
You will need a parallel constricted portion of the choke at least 1 1/2 inches long, preferably 2 inches long, in which to cut the rifling.
Good luck finding an existing full-choked shotgun with such a long choke!
...let alone a 'full-and-full' SxS double with 2-inch chokes!
But if you are really really lucky and find one, the easiest way to cut rifling is to set up a small rotary carbide burr on a jig. It won't look 'pukka', but it should work, as that is how the Rem-choke rifled choke tube appears to be made.
empirevr:
The so-called 'jungle gun' had straight rifling down the bore, ending with a twist starting about 5 inches from the muzzles. Yet another variation on the British 'ball and shot' gun.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 12/05/07 02:17 AM |
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Re: Favourite Caliber
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European guns generally have longer 'end chokes' than American guns, the Rem autoloader at least in 10 bore, has no end choke (I've read).
; The end chokes on my AYA 10 bore were almost 2".
; I actually hadn't thought about the end chokes when discussing this with my friend. You are right, 2" would be better, although 1-1/2" might work OK.
; My friend sugested to rifle the entire barrel and that's probably what we'll end up doing.