| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 24/01/04 04:34 AM |
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Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Question:
Has anyone had any first hand experience with homogenius bullets and the new thicker walled solids in thin barreled rifles, like doubles? I've read the horror stories by G. Wright and G. Woods, but I would like to know what you guys think?
Thanks!
| 400NitroExpress |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/01/04 06:05 AM |
Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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I have, and it was a sad, painful experience that really opened my eyes. My consolation was twofold - the rifle belonged to a good friend and hunting partner, and not to me, and I warned him about it, but he insisted. I did much of the shooting myself. It was as lovely a Westley Richards as you could want. The barrels were ruined with Barnes X bullets, a grand total of about 50 rounds. I'll never again pull the trigger on an X bullet in ANY rifle that belongs to me, double or otherwise.
Since then, I use only conventional lead core bullets in my doubles, ususally Woodleigh or Hawk. I shoot steel jacketed solids sparingly, and there is no earthly need to do otherwise. I also assiduously avoid any bullet with a monometal section - Trophy Bonded Bearclaws (solid shank), Swift A-Frame (the partion in the middle means that this bullet is homogenous for a short section; also, the shank of this bullet is as hard as a pair of good quality woodpecker lips), etc. At nitro express velocities, these bullets offer no advantage over conventional bonded lead core bullets such as the Woodleigh. The risk of damage comes with no offsetting gain. It isn't worth it.
I've read Gregor Wood's dubious tome and if I remember correctly (I thought so much of the book that I gave it away, so I can't verify), he perpetuates the lie that this is an "antique" double rifle problem only. New doubles can be damaged by homogenous bullets just as easily as the old and I know of several new rifles that have been.
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| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 24/01/04 06:21 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Chasseur,
Believe what Graeme Wright et all say. Stay away from Homogenous bullets - Barnes X etc.
Some people (including me) also include Swift A frames in this as they have a solid mid section
which again doesn't "give" as it goes down the barrels, therefore making it homogenous
as the poster above says.
They are expensive mistakes that don't need to be made as everyone says don't use them.
It does apply to MODERN Doubles as well - Chapuis etc al have said after fixing people's
prblems that they won't fix them if they keep using Homogenous bullets (see post somewhere on AR).
Hope this helps
500 Nitro
| Dark_Helmet |
| (.333 member) |
| 24/01/04 06:37 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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would this include the Nosler Partition????
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 24/01/04 08:48 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Guys thanks for your information!
When I read Wright's 2nd edition it convinced me not to use them. I also found Wood's "antique" vs. "modern" distinction not really credible (thin barrels are thin barrels at the end of the day, and thin barrels and hard bullets will not long make for happy combination).
400nitro what did you not like about Woods' book? I mostly objected to his bold bias (when reading I had to ask myself: why write a book about safari rifles and come to conclusions like, "I find heavy double rifles too barrel heavy,"??? hey I wonder who your audiance is???)
What of old nosler partitions then? Just I have some nice recipes for them for my 9.3 and would like to try them out, but had some second thoughts.
This forum is great!
| BFaucett |
| (.333 member) |
| 24/01/04 10:13 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Let me state up front that I'm a neophyte when it comes to double rifles. I purchased a new Merkel double in .470 about a year and a half ago. I've only fired about 30 rounds through it so far. I have read Wright's 2nd edition book and everything by Ross Seyfried in the Double Gun Journal magazine for about the last five years. So, as a beginner and having to make a decision for myself about what bullets to use, I decided that I would only shoot Woodleigh bullets through my Merkel. Period. I'll let someone else experiment with homogenous bullets in THEIR double rifle.
Just my two cents worth....
-Bob F.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 24/01/04 11:27 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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"Thin barrels are thin barrels at the end of the day, and thin barrels and hard bullets
will not long make for happy combination"
It's not the Hardness that causes the problem - it's the lack of "give" in the bullet which means
that the only thing to "give" as the bullet passes down the barrel is the barrel itself - hence the problem.
ie Woodleigh Steel Jacketed Solids are made of Coated Steel - steel is hard as we all know, HOWEVER
the bullet has a LEAD core and is open at the bottom. This allows some "give" as it travels down the barrel.
However like the 2nd poster, I only use Woodleigh Steel Jacketed Solids sparingly - I work up loads using
Woodleigh Softnoses, the once I've got the load I check that the solids shoot the same (4 - 8 shots) and then
I only shoot Soft Nose bullets unless I'm hunting Buffalo, in which case my 2nd shot in a double is always a solid
and the last round in my bolt gun magazine is always a solid.
I have not had any problems so far over about 10 - 15 double rifles - Old English and New.
Also, Woodleigh bullets are profiled (shaped) as per old English Double Rifle Bullets so that the minimum amount
of contact is made between bullet and barrel ie .458 bullet is only .458 for a small part of it's base, it then tapers slowly.
This helps enourmously with pressure and wear on the barrels.
Nosler Partitions - don't know buy why use a bullet when you have Woodleigh's et al ?
Hope this helps
500 Nitro
| luv2safari |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/01/04 12:04 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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For serious hunting of critters who take great exception to being shot, Woodleighs are the very best in my experience.
Another good solid is the Hornady copper plated steel jacket. It has plenty of give for double rifles and holds shape well. Too bad they don't offer it in more bores...9,3, 408, etc. I watched a client shoot a very nice White Bearded Wildebeest at 150 yards with a 9,3x64 and Barnes 250 gr XFB, and watched in disbelief as his somewhat high, but not too badly placed shot, exited out the top of the animal. Maybe this proves the Kennedy assasination theory about the one bullet traveling up, down, right, then left...with no deformation.
Barnes bullets will never run down the bore of anything I am shooting!
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 24/01/04 01:04 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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This whole post plays right into my Pet Peeve about reloading. That is our tendencies to screw around with things until we break something.
As stated here and many other places 'The Best Bullet You Can Get For A Double Rifle is a Woodleigh'. Why do people even want to try other bullets? Particularly ones that may/probably will damage your rifle. Even if they don't they will not be as efficent as the Woodleighs. I am not talking about playing with cast bullets or Hornadys but of the monolithic bullets and such that are designed for Bolt Rifles with more velocity than a Double will give you.
STOP IT !!!!
Okay, I'm better now.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 24/01/04 01:50 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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In reply to:
As stated here and many other places 'The Best Bullet You Can Get For A Double Rifle is a Woodleigh'. Why do people even want to try other bullets?
Yeah I totally agree.
We are indeed lucky that best quality bullets designed especially for double rifles are so easy to obtain.
| 400NitroExpress |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/01/04 03:00 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Chasseur & dasMafia:
In regard to your question about the Nosler Partition, the short answer is, I've never tried it. I only own one double rifle that Nosler makes the Partition in an appropriate diameter for, a .400/.360 NE that I use off the shelf 9.3 bullets in. The 286 grain 9.3 Partition was introduced about the time I had had an experience with the 300 grain Swift A-Frame that convinced me not to use it. Added to my experience with my friend's Westley Richards, I decided to restrict my doubles to conventional lead core bullets only.
You might find my experience with the A-Frame of interest. My .400/.360 was regulated for 300 grain bullets, and although 270 and 285 grain bullets give very good accuracy in it, 300 grain shoot the best. The problem is that 300 grain 9.3 bullets are hard to find. Since the Swift 9.3 is a 300, I reluctantly decided to try it. This .400/.360 has a tight bore and I size down off the shelf 9.3 bullets to groove diameter (.363") in a Corbin reducing die. Even RWS and Woodleigh steel-jacketed solids go through this die with just slightly more pressure on the handle than is required to full length resize a case. The first Swift I tried wouldn't enter the die. I checked the diameter - .366" just like it is supposed to be. I added more lube and tried again and just couldn't get it to go. I then added a 4' length of steel pipe to the handle as a cheater. I quit when the top of the loading table began to crackle under the load. The bullet didn't enter the die - not even .001". Nope, not in MY double rifle.
I look at it like this. I'm guessing a little as I haven't priced it since the problem with the Westley, but I would imagine that sending an English double back to the maker for new barrels would currently cost around $15,000 - more than most nice second-hand English boxlock double rifles are worth. When you damage the barrels, you've screwed the pooch. The Nosler is probably a softer bullet than the Swift, and it just might be OK, but finding out the hard way is a little rich for my blood. The Partition and the A-Frame are wonderful bullets, but so are Woodleighs, and they are a known quantity in double rifles as they were designed with them in mind.
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| luv2safari |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/01/04 03:08 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Not over here and not for a decent price...Woodleighs are good bullets, but I can buy gold for about the same price. Finding the supplier d'jour is a bit of a quest, too. Every time I find a source, they are closing out the slow moving merchandise...Woodleighs...and I buy what they have, then look for the new Woodleigh dealer.
Woodleighs are possibly a bit too "tough" for much N. American hunting. We don't use double rifles much, either, and don't have to worry about old double rifles being ruined by a certain type of bullet. For the calibers that are common, Hornady makes good bullets; so does Speer...both are moderately priced. I would never think of using those Speer tungston solids in a double rifle, however...pure poison!
Have you ever tried the Hornady solids? If so, I would appreciate your honest opinion of them. They are more readily available here.
I feel there is NO better first shot on buffalo than a Woodleigh protected point of sufficient weight. With the knuckleheads running things down under, I worry about a supply of bullets from your good country vanishing, just like your gun rights. Am I too alarmed about the situation?
| Hauptjäger |
| (.275 member) |
| 25/01/04 03:24 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Hi guys!
I have to say that the “idea” of a bullet the will expand and also keep enough mass to have good penetration. However, I see the point about Homogenious bullets and thin barrels, however would the damage that you all describe effect all riffles regardless if it has thick or thin barrels?
The Homogenious bullets do not “give” as it moves through the rifleings thus greatly damaging them no mater the weapon. Am I correct in this thinking?
It seems logical that as Chasseur pointed out “thin barrels and hard bullets will not long make for happy combination.” So to then hard bullets and any barrel will not long make for combination.
| luv2safari |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/01/04 04:28 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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At best they kick a double rifle all out of regulation; at wost, they ruin fine guns. I don't see any problem with them in bolt action rifles. Just stick to Woodleighs, or maybe Hornady in 375,416, and 458 solids...
Woodleighs were designed for doubles and are as good as it gets!!
By the way, Valmet/Tikka barrels seem to withstand the monolithic bullets. They are a bit heavy and are easy to re-regulate...but again, why not just shoot Woodleighs...?...problem solved.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 25/01/04 05:32 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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One of the problems in a Double is that the barrels are soldered together and that leaves zero room for movement of the barrel. Something has to give and that would be the solder.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 26/01/04 04:10 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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I will only shoot Woodleighs in my English doubles...
I have no problem shooting GS flat nose solids and Bridgers flat nose solid monolithics in my Searcy rifle...
These bullets have the pressure rings and actually build less pressure than the woodlighs according to my chronograph, but the Searcy is made of modern steel and that is a plus plus...It also shoots 1" or better at 50 yards, usually touching both bullets...
My friend and PH Johan Calitz has been shooting the FN solids in his Searcy double for about 8 or 9 years, whenever GS started producing and has killed many many elephants, buffalo and Lion with them....
Bridgers, John McMorrow makes a solid copper flat nose solid with pressure rings and it is designed for doubles...I use only solids to hunt dangerous game in my Searcy .470...as I did with my several 450-400s a caliber I dearly love.
I shot the GS FN Solids in my 450-400 without incident,and I shot a lot of them, but they have pressure rings and they shot very well and I hunted with them extensively...the rings make a difference...I would not use a Barnes, BarnesX, or any other monolithic without pressure rings...
Today I use only Bridger Bullets FN solid copper solids as they work and they are available...
| NONE |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/01/04 05:40 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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"Not over here and not for a decent price...Woodleighs are good bullets, but I can buy gold for about the same price. Finding the supplier d'jour is a bit of a quest, too. Every time I find a source, they are closing out the slow moving merchandise...Woodleighs...and I buy what they have, then look for the new Woodleigh dealer."
Luv2safari try MR. Ed Plumber at AHR (American hunting rifles) he loads the Woodleighs for me in .458 lott and uses them in many of his loadings, he I would think, might be a reliable source for you as I am sure he would entertain selling the bullets or put you in touch with someone who would in the US.
I also may add that he is currently building me a custom .458lott rifle and once its done I plan to commission another for NA hunting, he is a class act all the way or I would not recommend him.
http://www.hunting-rifles.com/
James F. Nixon III
| nopride2 |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/01/04 06:27 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Another homogenius bullet is a paper patched cast bullet. The hardness of the bullet can be adjusted by the alloy. If you want hard, use linotype. Not hard enough? Try anti-friction babbit at about 40 BHN. That's the equivalent of copper. These hard cast bullets are essentialy solids.
If you could get an X bullet at bore diameter and patch it up to groove diameter it might be safe in an older double. I think it was Whitworth who shot patched heat treated steel bullets without damaging the barrel. Even if you can get an X bullet down the barrel, what about regulation? The length-diameter ratio is so much different than a lead core bullet, that it must alter the point of impact.
Dave
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/01/04 02:40 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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In reply to:
Another homogenius bullet is a paper patched cast bullet.
If you could get an X bullet at bore diameter and patch it up to groove diameter it might be safe in an older double.
The so-called Pressure rings are the modern equivilent of the PAPER PATCH! The rings are cut into the bullet down to the BORE DIAMETER, and the tops of the rings are slightly higher than grouve diameter. This allows the metel in the rings to be easily displaced into the cut in the bullet, acting similer to a soft bullet!
All bullets expand the barrel as it passes through the bore, sort of like an egg passing through a snake. The bulge follows the bullet, and retracts as the bullet passes. This is the problem with Nono-metel bullets in doubles. As Micky says in a single barrel, the elasticity of the barrel lets the barrel react to this without damage, but in a double rifle the solder between the barrel and ribs sometimes lets go! The Valmet, and Tikka do not have ribs, so are not adversly effected. The pressure rings ar the way to go with the X-bullets, and Monolithic bullets if they are to ever be used in doubles, without risk!
| Dark_Helmet |
| (.333 member) |
| 27/01/04 04:31 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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my question re: the Partition stems from two things...
a) just want more info, and the partition is VERY available in a lot of calibers... and reasonable priced and effective on plains game.
b) its one of the few factory loads for my 375H&H No. 1 Tropical that I can get in town... and was just a little curious.
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/01/04 06:00 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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In reply to:
my question re: the Partition stems from two things...
a) just want more info, and the partition is VERY available in a lot of calibers... and reasonable priced and effective on plains game.
b) its one of the few factory loads for my 375H&H No. 1 Tropical that I can get in town... and was just a little curious.
DasMafia, don't worry about the Nosler Partitions in your No1, it will not hurt it, but I guarintee you it will hurt what ever you shoot with it!
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/01/04 07:51 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Dugaboy,
WHat of partitions in doubles?
I have the same reasons as dasmafia, I have many, many good looking nosler partitions loads for 9.3x74r and thought it would be fun to load some up, while I wait for the norma realoading manual to finally come out.
THanks!
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 27/01/04 12:41 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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In reply to:
Dugaboy,
WHat of partitions in doubles?
Chasseur, I,m undecided about the Nosler Partition as it is made today! The old NPs were made with a relief cut around the bullet over the PARTITION so the bearing surface is seperated in the middle of the bullet relieveing the area over the partition. Today, however, the bearing surface runs the same diameter right over the partition. So in the area of the Partition the bullet is a solid mono metel bullet! I'm not sure that the narrow partition is enough to do harm, but I certainly can't say for sure it isn't! The Nosler Partition is my favorite soft point in my bolt, and single shot rifles, especially the 375 H&H. Like you, I'm torn up with doubt!
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/01/04 01:51 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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I use Nosler Partitions in my 9,3 Chapuis with no pressure problems. They shoot very good. I also shoot Swift 500gr A-Frames in my 450 No2. No pressure signs and they are the bullet my No2 likes the best. Still for most uses the Woodleighs are hard to beat in double rifles.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/01/04 03:31 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Partly to stir things up and partly to settle an old argument....both need to be addressed.
Who here can say that they have seen a double damaged by a monolithics and prove it...
The last guy that came up with that crap about the riflings being pushed outward could not come up with the gun and assured me he was going to take a picture of it and post it over on AR, not only did I not hear from him, he disapeared off into the blue.....Turned out the gun belonged to a friend who didn't have time to photograp it and send me a photo....
Do monolithics build pressure, probably that is more of a problem than anything else, but we have chronographs and they can be loaded down and still get the same velocity..Worth some thought anyway...Excess pressure can take a double off the face but not split the solder IMO...
I have chased this phenomenom for several years and as of today I have never seen a double damaged by monolithics and I know a bunch of PH that have old hand me down Holland and Hollands, Rigbys and such wonderful possession that were bought many years ago for wall hangers, they don't know much about guns and they shoot whatever they can get and that is a lot of monolithics, they have gotten away with it....
The double is a mystic rifle, and it is a child of mystery and fraudulent beliefs that have been passed on from one generation to the next, so much so that no one really knows its capabilities because it has been cloaked in voo doo for the last century or two...
First we hear that fillers blow them up; then we hear that IMR-3031 blows them up; then we hear the 4831 has a long expansion ratio down the barrel and splits out the barrels; then we hear that only copper and lead bullets will not blow them up; then we are expected to believe that copper is harder than steel; and I have forgotten a few of the other fables be they true or not, I do not know, but I do shoot fillers, I do shoot 4831, even 3031, I have shot all maner of bullets such as GS monolithics, Hornady, Noslers and such....Many a solid by Woodleigh, Hornady, RWS, and others I have shot...
I feel that I can guarentee you no bullet is going to push the riflings to the outside of a barrel, that is hogwash of the first order...
So where does all this take us? Well perhaps down the yellow brick road Dorothy, its a fairy tale and the tin man is running the show.......
Its time to seperate the BS from the truth, which in fact none of us know!! I will shoot the GS solids in any double rifle and have shot them extensively in my Army/Navy and my Jefferys without any problem and based on that I will shoot Bridgers in any double as he uses the same metal and design as GS...I will shoot either 4831, 3031 or any other good powder at proper velocity and I will use fillers with RL-15.....
So where do we stand on this issue, do we remain in darkness or do we come out into the light and establish a proper standard for these fine guns....
I have also been a victim of these fables and I have not shot any BarnesX bullets in my doubles, but I know many who have.....
We are talking English guns, not the newer guns of today with better steel which I am sure can shoot any bullet.....
I'm listening? and I do respect any reply to come out of this that has some substance....
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 27/01/04 05:29 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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I first used the Barnes X bullets here in Aus in 1989 in 308 and 30-06 bolt action rifles.
The first Barnes X Aus Agent used photos of my recovered projectiles to promote the product and he sent me quite a few samples in different cals to test and also try to get more recoveries.
At the time I was doing most of my shooting with a double rifle so I specifically asked for projectiles for use in that gun.
Well, I shot a couple of hundred X's through it without problems.
This is an old pommie gun not a new double.
Another double of mine, (20 years old) has shot heaps of Winchester Fail Safe projectiles without any problems.
Same gun has shot heaps of Nosler Partitions without problems.
It's my opinion that any double that is not strong enough in the barrels to shoot Nosler Partitions without damage, is not worth owning.
But I don't shoot X's, Fail Safes, or Mono Solids through any of my doubles any more because there is no need to.
My idea of double ownership is to get it shooting right using the appropriate Woodleigh projectile then quit worrying about everything and get out there and hunt with it enjoy the thing.
Doubles can be a lot of fun!!!
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 27/01/04 05:46 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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In reply to:
Poster: 4seventy
Subject: Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
My idea of double ownership is to get it shooting right using the appropriate Woodleigh projectile then quit worrying about everything and get out there and hunt with it enjoy the thing.
Doubles can be a lot of fun!!!
Exactly the way I think. Make it work and stop F#%$@ing around with it.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 27/01/04 07:04 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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4seventy, Mickey,
Mickey, I saw your comment on the 1st page of this thread about reloading and continually stuffing around.
I totally agree - get ANY gun shooting and then go out and do something with it.
IMHO, if you want to play load development, become a bench rest / Fly shooter !!!
(I have nothing against bench rest / Fly shooters but load development really does give
them a benefit, with doubles and to a certain extent bolt gun, once you've got a good load ......
500 Nitro
| 400NitroExpress |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/01/04 12:26 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Ray:
Well, I suppose you're entitled to your opinion, even if you're not very observant. If you've never seen a double rifle with overstressed rifling (the rifling pushed through) from monolithic bullets, then you don't see many double rifles, or you're blind.
By the way, I'm not the guy you referred to in your post. I've never gone away, here or at AR.
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| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/01/04 01:24 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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400Nitro
There was indeed a fellow on AR that promised to send pictures of riflling imprinted on the outside of a barrel. They didn't ever show up as he said the gun was a friends and he couldn't get the pictures.
I have seen, in Darwin, a 308 Steyr with imprinted rifling. It was used as a culling rifle and had fired many thousands of rounds of solids of some type. It was still supposed to be accurate. Alas, I never thought to take a picture as it didn't seem unreasonable or unusual enough to me to think of it.
| 400NitroExpress |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/01/04 02:25 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Mick:
I guess that thread must have run before I found AR. Good to know.
The Westley I mentioned in my first post on this thread was a 9.3 and had just been redone by Paul Roberts when my friend got it. The barrels were perfectly struck - I checked when he was thinking of buying it. They certainly weren't when we got finished with the X-bullets. He sold it for a song a year or two later. The dealer that he sold it to sent it to J. J. to have the barrels struck off and re-blacked. It showed up for sale at Westley Richards a few months later.
I've seen a number of double rifles with the same damage over the years. Fewer now than I used to. Word finally got around.
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| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 28/01/04 02:32 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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OK, boys it's put up or shut up time, show me a double rifle with the rifling pushed to the outside and imprinted, and I will pay you a hundred dollar bill....I'm calling you out and I suspect that I have seen as many doubles as anyone....
If copper is harder than steel of any kind that is a new one on me..I been chasing this BS for longer than most of you have lived....
I have spent many years chasing this fable and listening to this bullshit, now show me and I'll make you richer....
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 29/01/04 06:02 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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OK guys I going to up the anti to $200, I really want to see this phenominum...
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 29/01/04 08:22 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Question for Woodleigh shooters:
What is the difference in the regular soft nose and the Protected round point? Just thinking of getting some and trying it out for my 9.3. Also is there a woodleigh loading manual?
Ray:
I don't have any experience with the "hard bullets" (I've only run a few partitions through my Chapuis), but I can comment a bit on the 3031 "myth." I my opinion, it seems very plausible. Back when starting reloading for my 9.3 I did a bonehead move and made some loads that someone gave me recipes for the 9.3x74r with 3031. I of course started low and worked up. Well that was my intention. Even at reduced levels pressure was HIGH, extraction difficult, so after a two shells, I went lower, and extraction remained difficult. So I stopped. Then I looked back at Wright's book and saw what he wrote on 3031, and thought boy I was stupid for ignoring that since I thought he was only talking about problems with large bores.
| Rusty |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/01/04 07:29 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Well, I think my rifle shows the signs of shooting monolithic solids thru it. I took a picture and sent it to Ray. The camera doesn't really show what the eye can see. I told Ray that next time he gets down to Texas we'll get to get and oogle the barrels of my rifle! I told him to keep his money!
Another good story about him and Pierre hunting buffalo would be great fun!
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/01/04 09:10 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Chasseur and Rusty,
It is paramont that one uses a good gob of filler with IMR-3031 or you will build pressures as there is simply too much space in the big cases, thats a given...
Before the advent of some of the newer powders like 4831, 4350,RLs, IMR-3031 was the powder of choice for all doubles and for many years the only available powder that would work with them.
As too this barrel thing I am very anxious to see Rustys gun, and he should have the steel ex-rayed and have some testing done...I have talked to many of the double rifle gunsmiths and those I have talked to tell me this cannot take place and it it did then the rifleing would be very shallow on the inside indeed as the would be pushed out and copper, brass being softer than steel makes this an impossiblity..the gun would have to be a smooth bore because the metal must go somewhere and if it goes out, then it cannot remain in...makes since to me...
I strongly suspect that what Rusty is seeing is perhaps the remements of a hammer forged barrel, the rigdes caused in turning the barrel down and polishing or something on that order, but should he be correct he will certainly get a check from me and my search for the truth will finally come to an end, but I have been at this point before and nothing came of it...
I would love to see that gun studied by someone like L&L Interprises or even Whites laboratories, as I have a lot of respect for Rusty and some of that group when it comes to double rifles...
| Rusty |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/01/04 12:27 PM |
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Ray,
I'd love to find out those are hammer forgings too Ray! I will try to locate a metal Xray firm in Houston and we'll see what a few Xray films say!
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/01/04 01:46 PM |
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Ray,
I'm not a expert on reloading, but I was aware of the need to use filler in the large nitro cases meant for cordite. However, in my slender little 9.3x74r cases the 3031 filled them up rather nicely (not really different than the 4064 I happily use now), there really was no extra space, but the pressure was still too high.
Not trying to start a fight, just trying to understand what happened.
Thanks
| NE450No2 |
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| 30/01/04 03:10 PM |
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My first loads with my 9,3x74R were with IMR 3031 and 270 Speer bullets. While I never had any high pressure problems these are the only loads that the bbls cross fired.
I later found that RL-15 gives excellent accuracy with the 270 Speers, and I use 65gr of IMR 4831 with the 285/286 bullets. 286 Woodleigh Solids seem to shoot best with 63.5 gr of IMR 4831. I say seems to as I do not declare a load good until I have several different firing sessions with it.
| luv2safari |
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| 30/01/04 04:48 PM |
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I have found 4064 to be the best all around powder for my three different 9,3x74r's with 250 & 286 gr bullets. IMR 4831 works about perfectly with the 320 Woodleighs.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/01/04 02:21 AM |
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Chasseur,
Having never loaded for the 9.3x74, I cannot say...but IMR-3031 is very close to the same burning rate as IMR-4064, but every gun is an inity unto itself, so I have no doubt of your problem, just suggesting some possibilities. but you have to admit these forums are a good place to discuss these matters and a lot of hard questions are answered here, so no one is trying to start an arguement that I know of but varied opinnions are good for the soul.....
| Chasseur |
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| 31/01/04 02:45 AM |
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Luv2safri and Ray,
Thanks to both of you and all your information. I'll look into your loads! I really enjoy this forum!
Thanks!
| nopride2 |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/02/04 06:06 AM |
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Regarding pushing the rifling to the outside of the barrel. The bullet would have to create enough pressure to exceed the yield strength of the barrel steel. The non yielding bullet would be pushing on the lands, and stretching the metal in the grooves. Assuming a 6 land barrel, the outside would have a slight hexagontal shape. You would also have an oversized bore. If one were to shoot a bullet hard enough to deform a barrel in this manner, the pressure required, would probably damage the action of a double rifle.
Dave
| DUGABOY1 |
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| 07/02/04 09:34 AM |
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In reply to:
I have talked to many of the double rifle gunsmiths and those I have talked to tell me this cannot take place and it it did then the rifleing would be very shallow on the inside indeed as the would be pushed out and copper, brass being softer than steel makes this an impossiblity..
Just because a gunsmith is well versed on the needs of double rifle restortion, and repair, doesn't mean he knows everything about physics! I don't really want to get into a big disucssion that nobody can prove, one way or another on the internet, but there are a couple things to think about before makeing up your mind about useing mono-lithic bullets in a double rifle!
Because copper is softer than steel is no guarintee that a copper bullet can't expand a rifle barrel. Mud is softer than steel but barrels are expanded to bursting every day, when sudden pressure is applied! That same mud plug, shouved through the barrel with a cleaning rod, does no damage at all. Like a bullet, the pressure behind the mud suddenly expands it,admittedly to a greater degree than it would a bullet, but does have an effect, none the less!Think of this like a person diveing into water from ten feet,approximently 5 mph, the water simply flows out of the way, and closes behind as the person enters the water. Hitting that water at 100 MPH it becomes a solid, and will crush your skull! Why, because it no longer has time to react, and retract!
The bullet moveing through a rifle barrel will not have the same effect on that barrel if pushed through at slow speed, like with a hydrolic pressure, as it will when shouved through it at 2150 fps. The slower bullet would give the barrel steel, and copper of the bullet, time to react, and retract, the same bullet pushed "SUDDENLY" through the same barrel gives less time for the steel, and copper to react, and retract. This is the same as a bullet pushed against a 3/8" steel plate, slowly, crushing the bullet, and only denting the steel, but the same bullet hitting the plate at 2150 fps, drilling right through, because the bullet doesn't have time to crush, before the steel give way!
That being said, I don't think you will find as many rifleing displacements, as you will seperated ribs, or pressure induced off face condition, from mono-lithics, in doubles.
Regardless, if there is any chance of damageing my rifles from the use of mono-lithic bullets,in my doubles, then they will not be used in my rifles, regardless of evidence shown me, personally! Like my good friend Ray has always said, "where there is smoke, there is usually, at least, a simmering coal of fire"!
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 11/02/04 03:36 AM |
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Dugaboy,
My posts to you are always tendered with respect to your vast knowledge of double rifles, of that there is no doubt..but on this issue I will take anyone to task, as in order to move steel to the outside of a gun with a softer metal is simply an impossibility and this is simply an old wives tale that has been pushed into the relm of believable by some of the most knowledgeable....In order for this to be true one would end up with an oversize smooth bore, not just worn rifleing...if you move steel then it must go somewhere....
We did a test a couple of years ago based on my reading about the same test in some magazine or hearsay or whatever and we took an old English double set of ruined .408? barrels that I procured from Rick Stickley...I sent an oversize mild steel billet down the tube more than half way, at which time Ken Akin and I could no longer swing the sledge hammer, Next day we knocked it out and without going into detail, nothing changed what so ever and the barrel expanded and returned to specs, thats about the extent of it...I am aware the same test was conducted with a hydralic press and with the same results except it swaged the monolithid solid from 458 to .411
More tests of this nature need to be performed and test done under more elaborate conditions..as I am still firmly convinced that softer metal cannot move harder metal, that is a scientific fact or so I have been assured..
However, as I said in the beginning, I do not shoot monolithics in english rifles UNLESS they are of pure copper and have pressure rings such as Bridger or GS Customs bullets...I have shot these in my Jefferys and Army Navy 450-400's more than a few times in the flat nose solid varity without a problem..In fact using the same identical load as I used with my regulated Woodleighs I had to UP the charge by 2grs. with the GS bullets to get the required 2125 FPS to regulate and come to POI, which indicates to me they were, in fact, easier on the bores than the accepted Woodleighs...
Now, to set the record straight, I would not shoot Barnes X in an English double rifle, as they have no pressure rings and may be of a harder metal than GS or Bridger...Barnes claims there test show other wise?....I would suggest that they may damage an English double in ways other than pushing the rifling to the outside of the barrel..they may undo the solder or whatever, I simply do not know.
Well, thats the way I see it and I like I said, I have chased this issue for a number of years and to date, have not been convienced otherwise, but I am receptive of any actual proof that can be produced, but not assumption or Hearsay. I do however welcome any posts what so ever as to anyones opinnion, that is what makes for intelligent conversation...
At any rate I solved the problem by purchasing the new Searcy PH model, which is as close to an English double as I have seen and one heck of a lot stronger and better steel and will handle any bullets with aplomb...It is a hunting rifle...
| DUGABOY1 |
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| 11/02/04 04:33 AM |
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Very well put, Ray! One thing I would like to ask you, however, is how did you swing that hammer fast enough to get 2150 fps, and 35000 lbs chamber pressure, behind the mild steel bullet?
All kidding asside, I don't know if I believe the rifleing being pushed to the outside of the barrel, but I do think the fact that the bullet being softer than the barrel is not the only thing that must be taken into consideration, to call the displacement of barrel steel an impossibility. My take is, the most probable negative outcome, if any, will be rib seperation! In any event, I will not use them, unaltered, in my rifles, nor will I reccomend anyone else to use them.
I think the so-called pressure ridges are the key to the use of monolithic solids in double rifles. These ridges simply give the displaced engraved metel someplace to go! Into the cuts behind them! This allows them to act more like a lead core bullet, while still maintaneing it's monolithic solid integrity! If you look closely at a Barnes Super Solid, you will see the bareing surface is grouve diameter, while the nose of the bullet is bore diameter. The crimp grouve is also bore diameter. With the pressure rings cut into the bearing surface, slightly deeper than the crimp grouve, or slightly deeper than bore diameter, IMO, would allow the metel being displaced by the rifleing engraveing, a place to go! Into the space between the pressue rings, and thereby makeing them usable in all doubles!
| mickey |
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| 11/02/04 07:16 AM |
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Ray
All bullets swell the barrel of a rifle as thye go on their merry way. I would think that the give and ductability of the way the ribs are attached would be the weak point. How does Searcy handle this differently than the other makers? Better barrel steel, if in fact they do use better steel, would not make a difference in the movement of the ribs. Or would it?
| atkinson6 |
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| 11/02/04 11:41 AM |
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Mickey and Mac,
I don't have all the answers and have about run my best lick at ya'll.....I can't add a lot more...and mine is mostly opinnion with a lot of information/opine gleened from the double rifle gunsmiths like Butch, David Yale, lee LaBois and others...
| DUGABOY1 |
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| 12/02/04 12:29 PM |
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Ray, you could very well be as right as rain, I have nothing other than opinion,myself, not being educated in advanced physics, and my sources are exactly the same as yours, almost a life time of hunting with rifles, of all types, and handloading for 50 years, along with 46 years of owning,useing, and loading for double rifles! I certainly have never damaged a double rifle with mono-metel bullets, because I only used them one time, and had to take the rifle appart, and use dryice to shrink the steel, and brass to get the cases out of the chambers, because of the over pressure. The rifle turned out to be OK, however, I didn't shoot any more monos in a double. That was my fault, because I used the same load that regulated with softpoints, and fire both barrels before trying to break the rifle open. I screwed up, because I did not reduce the load, and work up! I'm still open to the use of Monolithic solids in double rifles, if some one can show me one that will work without damageing my rifles!
The North Fork looks like the answer to me,with the grouves to relieve the pressure needed to engrave the rifleing into the bullet,without haveing to compress the whole bullet! Now, if we could just get him to make some solids! Nitro 450 #2, and I talked to him for quite a while, at the DSC show, and his bullets really look nice to me! His velocity/upset displays are impressive, to say the least!
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 13/02/04 08:15 AM |
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Mac,
Thats not a problem the GS and the Bridger FN solids and their HPs are no different than the Northforks in that respect..all have a solid base with the pressure rings...All normally have to be charged with a grain or two more powder to reach pressure level and velocity to come to regulation and may require some minor sight regulation also...displacement of bullet jacket or material simply applies to the rings only and very little movement of barrels takes place as it has been explained to me....
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 13/02/04 11:53 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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I first heard about this rifling on the outside of the barrel stuff some time before it appeared in the books mentioned above.
I personally have never seen this but a man told me that he had seen it and this bloke has an immense amount of experience with a hell of a lot of doubles.
I'll go right out on a limb here and say that in my opinion this man would have shot more big Aussie game with doubles than anyone else on the planet. (mainly buffalo and big boars and scrub bulls)
He knows what he is talking about and had nothing to gain by making the story up.
I do believe that it could occurr, but IMO it would take more than just one or two shots.
| nopride2 |
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| 13/02/04 02:17 PM |
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Rifling on the outside of the barrel, I gotta see it to believe it.
Dave
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 13/02/04 03:13 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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What was describded to me was NOT that the actual total amount of rifling shifts to the outside of the barrel, but more like that a visible pattern appeared on the barrel surface which followed the shape and position of the internal rifling.
The suggestion was that the monolithic and some other solid bullet types were creating a swaging effect where over time and many firings with monolithic type solids, a small shifting of the barrel metal takes place.
The barrel does not end up with all the rifling on the outside and a smooth bore.
The barrel still looks the same internally but shows a spiral pattern on its outside surface which matches the internal rifling.
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 14/02/04 03:33 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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4seventy,
You would be wise to insist on "seeing" this phenominum, I have been insisting for years and so far all I have gotten is BS and excuses....no one has produced one yet..maybe someday I will see one and then perhaps we can get to the bottom of this thing....but I will never believe soft copper can move steel, that is an impossibility according to some of the great metalurgic minds I have gleened...
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 14/02/04 10:12 AM |
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In reply to:
4seventy,
You would be wise to insist on "seeing" this phenominum
Ray,
I am a bit of a "Doubting Thomas" myself when it comes to matters like this and I guess that's why I chose the wording, "I do believe it COULD occurr".
In reply to:
but I will never believe soft copper can move steel, that is an impossibility according to some of the great metalurgic minds I have gleened...
Now I'm not a metalurgist and nor am I usually a gambling man but I'm tempted to ask if there is any money riding on that?
| nopride2 |
| (.300 member) |
| 14/02/04 12:19 PM |
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On a lighter note, let just shoot a hollow mono bullet outside the barrels, and push that rifling back in where it belongs. Figure eight in a double of course.
Dave
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 16/02/04 08:43 AM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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4seventy,
Yes, I would put some money on it that no-one can prove such a thing has happened to a nitro proofed rifle, say a couple of hundred bucks....It would be worth it to me to put this question to rest after chasing it for 20 years...
The more I have talked to the real experts in this field, the more I am convienced that some have seen some type of stiations in barrels, but have simply misinterpeted the causation...It was sworn by many that such a gun was at SCI in 1998, but that is not so, only a rumor being lied about to substantiate a claim...
When I talked to Holland and Holland, Rigby, and Westley Richards, there reaction to the question went from a suttle grin to outright laughter...Albiet all agreed that manolithic bullets may or may not, in fact, undo the solder and split the barrels apart and if so then they would do that long before any rifleing poked out the top....
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/02/04 08:55 AM |
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Now Ray, you oughta know better than to say something like that. It will resurface in another coupla years as with any topic concerning guns, caliber, etc. Just look at how many times; is the 375 any good, is the 458 good enough, etc. popped up. Let's not forget the 45-70 thing also.
NitroX
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| 16/09/08 03:21 PM |
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BTTT
| 470evans |
| (.333 member) |
| 17/09/08 09:12 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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Quote:
What was describded to me was NOT that the actual total amount of rifling shifts to the outside of the barrel, but more like that a visible pattern appeared on the barrel surface which followed the shape and position of the internal rifling.
The suggestion was that the monolithic and some other solid bullet types were creating a swaging effect where over time and many firings with monolithic type solids, a small shifting of the barrel metal takes place.
The barrel does not end up with all the rifling on the outside and a smooth bore.
The barrel still looks the same internally but shows a spiral pattern on its outside surface which matches the internal rifling.
That's a very good description. When I got my first double a few years back I read about this condition and didn't really believe it could happen. After all, copper or brass is softer than steel, right???
I was smart enough to recognize I didn't know everything and decided to shoot only Woodleighs or other conventional lead core bullets like Hornadys, etc in my doubles.
Now a few years later.....If anyone wants to see what overstressed rifleing looks like you have my permission to go see my 450/400 in Enid OK but you better hurry. I wonder if Ray's $200 is still available?
I picked the gun up for a song. The bores were in great condition but the stock was a mess and it had overstressed rifling that was clear to see, once you know what you are looking for. When I had it shipped to JJ he pointed the overstressed rifleing out to me and commented "another one shot with mono bullets". It looks just as described above. I imagine most guys that have handled many doubles have handled guns that have it but don't know what to look for. Paul Hodgins re-stocked it and JJ is re-regulating it and picking up the engraving. When finished it will be beautiful. According to JJ, as long as the gun is shot with correct diameter non-mono bullets it will be fine.
I've handled four guns with overstressed rifleing. The one described above, another one I had shipped in for inspection and passed on. This particular gun had been to JJ's shop 4-5 years earlier for some work and had no overstressed rifleing then but it does now. As well as two others that I've handled and shot that are beautiful guns but clearly display overstressed rifleing. These two have been shot quite a bit with Barnes and Swifts and didn't have the overstressed rifleing when they were bought by the current owner.
In the end do what you want with your guns, they belong to you. But remember when the keyboard experts or the bullet manufacturers tell you there are no problems with mono bullets or that steel is harder than copper there are a least 4 guns out there that show something different and that something is enough to keep me away from the monos.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 17/09/08 10:43 PM |
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Re: Homogenious bullets and doubles
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470evans,
Thanks for that information, the more we can find out and learn about this the better.
Do you recall the calibers of the other rifles you've seen with the OSR condition?
Woodleighs are the go for double rifles as they have been designed for that exact purpose.
I shoot them in my doubles and bolt guns as well.
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 18/09/08 12:52 AM |
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OK, here's a winner.
How 'bout some pix?
Also, has anybody examined the "spiral pattern" to determine if it is not stressed metal caused by the RIFLING process itself? Just like the swirl pattern that sometimes exists on old Winchester actions which cannot be measured or felt, and only shows up after many years and a patina?
Depending on how rifling is cut, outward pressure could I suppose exist, especially with a very thin-tubed gun. For it to show the length of the barrel, I suggest this might be investigated. Especially since I cannot conceive of how a full-barrel spiral would exist since the barrel would, for some length, be carrying an already engraved bullet, mono or not. Hence my question in the previous thread.
Oh, my supposition is not based merely on a guess. When I stamp letters on knife blades, the letter can and sometimes does show up on the opposite side of the blade "backwards", even though it cannot be measured with a micrometer OR felt with the hand. This makes me wonder that if the visible osr condition exists, it could be caused by either many bullets or internal stresses laid up by rifling.
| 450_366 |
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| 18/09/08 04:50 AM |
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Still sceptical arent you
I wonder when the rifling nows to show up on the outside. But you are right it strange that it can be seen the whole length, but it could also be that the bullet never gets a full engraving.
If the barrel is cut it shouldnt be any stress over the rifling, and if its hammered the stress would be lesser over the rifles wouldnt it. But if the stress is lover it could be that its easyer to print the rifling to the outside as the metal isnt as dense as the surrounding. But this doesent give the answer to why it only starts to show after the mono bullets are shot thru it. It would be nice if someone with a rifle that has this OSR problem could look if its cut or hammered.
Are the old riflebarrels you refer to hammered or cut? I ask as the hammerpattern on the outside of the barrel is possible to see in som rifles (it is let to turn as it goes thru the hammers),but then it selden does follow the twist of the rifles.
btw. does your mirror letter show up after the stampings are done or 50 years later?
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 18/09/08 05:52 AM |
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Quote:
btw. does your mirror letter show up after the stampings are done or 50 years later?
Pretty much immediately!
But the swirl patina on an 86 receiver doesn't. It shows up long after the gun is made.
This topic is a mystery, indeed!!
| Bramble |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/09/08 09:41 AM |
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9.3
Interesting what you say about stampings on blades.
I was looking at a DR for a client some months ago and the proof marks were clearly visible in the bottom of the chamber having carried through from the barrel flats.
It was a 100 year old gun and of course I have no way of knowing if they were always visible or only after years of wear.
Regards
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 18/09/08 10:29 AM |
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Bramble - it is unlikely there was any wear in the chambers at all. What is most likely, is the coloured patina from age and use, which shows the stampling. It probably would not have been visible when new.
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 18/09/08 10:45 AM |
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Bramble:
The blade stamping is caused by using too heavy a hammer to make the stamp. I can eliminate it by using a lighter strike. All my work is by hand so I'm stuck with "feel" for alot of the work.
450 366: You brought up a good point. A very knowledgeable machinist, engineer or metallurgist could help here, but as for rifling, is it possible that cut rifling would result in a relief of stress that would result {in a very thin barrel} in a propensity for "lifting" {I don't know the metallurgical term} of the metal on the outside of the tube? I know in knifemaking that any removal of material on one side of the blade but not the other can result in warping during hardening.
Has anybody ever measured the bore "before and after" of one of these OSR rifles?