| hoppdoc |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/11/06 10:35 AM |
BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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Big Bore Doubles are the hammer that kills when used correctly.An instant 2nd shot if needed.
Ideally, the 600 NE is better than the 577 than the 500 etc.
In reality to be effective a 600 must kill better than smaller calibers and still serve its purpose of having an instant second shot in reserve.
Is the 600 a better quicker,killer with non CNS hits than smaller calibers? I would have to say a qualified YES!!! Is there any dispute over that??
But is the 600 still a working Double at its carry weight and the speed of its second shot?? That's debatable. For some individuals it is not effective functioning as a working Double due to recoil and recovery time. It certainly wouldn't be for me.
What Double do forum members think is the maximum useful working Double gun for carry on a DG safari and also fills your need for a stopper?
9.3 x 74R
450 class
470 class
500 class
577 class
600 class
??other??
Thanks for any and all responses.
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/11/06 11:39 AM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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Hopadoc,
You need to take into consideration bullet construction. Today's bonded bullets and monolithics deliver superior terminal ballistics than those when the cartridge was concived. A modern bonded soft can penatrate deep and produce a large wound channel. Also, solids have larger metplats which a cavitation void is created as it plows through. No more .458 in .458 out. Today's bullets effect more lethality per grain
With this said; caliber, caliber caliber! A 500 NE will out perform a 450 NE because of its caliber. However, for a non-PH, the 450NE or 458 Win Mag is all you need with a woodleigh or other bonded bullet provided you can shoot. A PH may want to carry a 500 to stop or turn a charge.
Both of my 450 DRs regulated just under 5000 Ft/lbs, but I'm not concerned because I will use woodleigh bullets.
| hoppdoc |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/11/06 11:47 AM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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I would think that with similar solid bullet consruction the larger solid would shock more and have more knockdown.
Previous effects of solids on Ele support this.
Things get blurry when you shoot softs on Buffs. Does a 470 non CNS shot kill as fast as a 500.Maybe so, is there any difference to measure??
The plot thickens--
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/11/06 11:52 AM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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What is CNS?
| AdamTayler |
| (.375 member) |
| 04/11/06 12:08 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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Central Nervous System
| 500grains |
| (.416 member) |
| 04/11/06 02:45 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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For me the max in manageable recoil for a quick 2nd shot iis .500 NE and the max weight for long stalks is 11 pounds.
| hoppdoc |
| (.400 member) |
| 04/11/06 03:33 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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If we want to play with numbers--
if both a 470 and 500 expand to 1.5x their diameter the cross sectional area of the 500 will be about 14% larger than the 470 with about 10% more energy.
Is this a markedly better round for game? Can you tell by shooting enough game with both? I'm no rocket scientist but the 500 sounds like a better hammer to me.Always Kill 'em quicker if possible---
As for bigger than 500NE--
If you can handle the recoil of a 577/600 class Double and use the second barrel pronto then go for it- You have my admiration.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 04/11/06 05:31 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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hopdoc
I have shot Buff with a number of Big Bores and a 600 at Targets in competition and for me at least a 500NE wuld be the Max to carry, shoot and get off a 2nd fast shot.
A 500NE is noticeably harder on animals over a 470/450, especially when you DON'T hit the CNS but hit any of the CNS with any of them and it will go down.
The 500NE IMHO does "shock" more than others and I have seen the "ripples" radiate out from the POI.
500Nitro
| JPK |
| (.375 member) |
| 05/11/06 05:00 AM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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I think 500 Grains has it about right. No more recoil than a 500NE will generate out of a rifle no heavier than 11, maybe 11 1/2lbs.
I think the 450/470 class is plenty adequate, should make for a 10 to 10 1/2lb rifle and recoil is tolerable and not an issue for a quick second shot.
So, if you find a rifle you like, that fits you or can be made to fit you, and its 450 to 500NE, buy it.
Don't over look a really nice 458wm, it has worked to perfection for me, but buy it with room in the price to have it rechambered to 450NE if needed.
Editted to add that, in my veiw, only performance with solids is relevant. Where a double rifle is most beneficial, you don't want softs in your chambers.
My thoughts,
JPK
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/11/06 05:45 AM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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In reply to:
What Double do forum members think is the maximum useful working Double gun for carry on a DG safari and also fills your need for a stopper?
9.3 x 74R
450 class
470 class
500 class
577 class
600 class
??other??
I think they all are good for someone, but given the down side of many chamberings, and their attendant weight,and quick use restrictions, some are not nearly as useful as others!
For me, I don't consider anything above a 577NE double to be a gain in effeciency, and in fact are almost useless, except for the "LOOK AT ME" factor, at the local range!
For hunting of dangerous game, up to, and including Buffalo, anything from 9.3X74R, to a 500NE will do, with my pick being from the 400s up to the 500NE. If I had to include elephant, then I'd likely pick the 500NE as first choice.
The 470NE is the golden boy of today, but IMO, it will do nothing better than the verious .450s, and in fact I'd rather have a 450NE 3 1/4" double for everything accross the board, for everything in the Big five, than the 470NE. It has the widest range of componants available to the loader, and the rifles can be made lighter, while still being quick to get off the second shot. When I move above the .458 dia double, I would go all the way to the 500NE without looking back.
For a double that I would use for North America, as well the cats, and Buffalo of Africa, then a 10 pound 450/400NE 3" double, would fill the bill quite nicely!
For a combination of doubles for All African hunting, my choice would be Idealy, a little 8.5 pound 9.3X74R double with a QD scope, and a 450NE 3 1/4", 10.5 pound double, for everything.
If I were a PH I would have two doubles as well! They would be the 9.3X74R, and a 500NE double, to switch between depending on the hunt at hand!
My "go to" SET today, as a client hunter, is a pair of Merkel S/S double rifles! A 140E 9.3X74R, and a 140.2 Safari 470NE!
Opinion, opinion, opinion! We've all got one, and that one is my short opinion! However, given an unlimited bank account.......................................
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 05/11/06 04:42 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKI
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The .450 and .470 are the same class. The ballistics for that range of NE's is virtually the same. Except the .450 has more bullets to choose from.
I would be happy with a .450 class double rifle and am, but would not say no to a nice .500. Harold Wolf also wrote about their being a noticeable jump in a .500 from the .450-.475 class of rifle on the effect on elephant.
I would also try a .577 too.
The trade-off on recoil and the weight of the rifles are important factors to take into account.
I think my .450 is 11 3/4 lbs and it seems OK to carry for long periods. My camera gear however is NOT so easy to carry!
| Shanster |
| (.275 member) |
| 06/11/06 03:17 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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I am glad i have a 450/400 3 inch
I was taught by my grandfather who was a renound polar bear guide in Alaska ( who shot a Huskavarna 30-06 180 gr nosler pt) it dosent mater if you shoot a cannon if you dont hit were you are shooting at.
Shan
| JPK |
| (.375 member) |
| 07/11/06 02:53 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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Shanster,
What you say doesn't apply to elephants. Taylor wasn't all wrong with his knock out theory. You can stop a charge with an imperfect shot if you're shooting enough gun (in my view at least .458" and 450grs at reasonable speed.) You can also knock them down and even out, allowing time for a better killing shot.
JPK
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 07/11/06 04:05 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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My favourite stopper is a 577. I've used a 3" and the 2 3/4"/650 but I prefer the 2 3/4"/750. It has the same ME as the 500 with a much larger bullet and the same recoil. Not a long range rifle, 100 yds. max, but what you need for being up close.
I also am a fan of the 450's, particularly the 450/ 3.25. The 400 is as low as I would go for Lion, Buff or Ele charging distance.
I also have used a 9.3 extensively in Africa and NA but would choose a 400 if I had a choice for DG. I wouldn't feel under armed for anything but Ele and Buff with the 9.3 though.
| Peterb |
| (.333 member) |
| 09/11/06 01:48 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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For me, anything over 470 is just too much more weight to carry.
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/12/06 07:57 AM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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I have used all of the following doubles in Africa and North America.
I have taken NA game,plains game, cape buff and elephant with all 3.
My 450 No2 is my favorite rifle of all time.
I think the 450/400 [mine is a 3 1/4"] is the best choice in a double for all round use for the modern Safari hunter.
ESPECIALLY if scoped.
My 9,3x74R Chapuis Double, scoped of course, is my favorite hunting rifle under 40 cal.
While I believe in Physics, I must report that in actual use I have not been able to tell any difference in effectiveness between the calibres.
I will admit I feel a little better with the 450 or the 400 when around elephants, but I know if I hit them right with the 9,3 all will be well.
I would prefer the 9,3 double to any bolt rifle for African DG.
| grandveneur |
| (.400 member) |
| 02/11/23 08:22 PM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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An old topic but still relevant.
I also have two very big bore double rifles in my gun safe, one caliber 577NE and the other one caliber 600NE. I shot a lot with both, but never hunted with it.
I know for what they were supposed to be used, especially elephant hunting, but I did not really know how such very heavy not easy to handle devices could be used efficiently in our times. I have already thought about going hunting elephants with one of both, but my rifle caliber 500 Schüler with a scope does the job much better. This is nothing new, and at the beginning of the 20°Century, a few professional hunters left his double rifle caliber 577 Nitro Express in the gun safe in favor of a bolt action rifle caliber 416 Rigby for example.
Anyone who use regularly for hunting in Africa a rifle with scope and values perfect shot placement, is forced nowadays to adapt his hunting to the weapon if they want to use a very big bore double rifle with open sights.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/11/23 03:38 AM |
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Re: BIG BORE DOUBLE REALITY-- EFFICIENCY vs OVERKILL??
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I believe maximum carrying weight depends an awful lot on condition and to some extent, the age of the hunter.
There are a LOT of guys at the muzzleloading forum I frequent, who say anything over 7 1/2 to 8 pounds is just too heavy for them.
Aging population or just out of shape shooters?
I still shoot my 9 1/2 pound 14 bore well & shoot my 10 1/2 to 11 1/2 pound air rifles well, too.
Harry Pope once wrote that a man's offhand rifle should weigh 16 pounds and a woman's rifle should weigh 12.
He was referring to Schutzen, 200yard, standing 25 ring "German" target shooting with aperture sighted rifles having palm rests.
I guess proper "weight" depends on the discipline.