| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/12/05 05:41 AM |
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When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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In an effort to remove any particular maker's name from the discussion I pose this question.
When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
If older steels have lasted for 100 plus years in rifles why are they all of a sudden not any good anymore?
If a design has withstood 100 years of use and refinement why is it no longer any good?
If slower velocity's worked for 100 years why are they no longer fast enough?
If older bullet designs worked for 100 years why are they no longer any good?
While 'New' and 'Improved' is nice what real advantages to you derive from them?
Can an animal be deader than dead? Can a rifle be stronger than strong? Does it matter or is it just all sales BS ?
Inquiring Minds Want to Know.
At least I do.
| banzaibird |
| (.333 member) |
| 17/12/05 06:47 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Well I’ll give my thoughts but they are obviously just my opinions.
The steels provided they had no fault then and haven’t been abused since then are still fine and will give fine service. However perhaps newer steels will let new cartridges to develop to take advantage of the new strength.
The design is as you pointed been refined for 100 years. Suddenly it seems we have those that want to stop the design where it was in the past. I mean there always needs to be some refinement. Otherwise we would all still be using matchlocks, because after all they were refined for centuries. Why spend the time to develop wheel locks, snaphaunce, miquelet etc? The art of gunmaking currently isn’t and never has been stable thing. There are always advances being made. Sometimes they don’t always work. Sometimes they shouldn’t work but do. That’s what makes guns great. If we all like the exact same thing it would really stink because everything would look the same.
The British make fine rifles. However if they simply were fine and didn’t continue to tinker with the basic German actions then many a fine weapon would never have been created. I think a lot of this is how people of a society tend to view their guns. Germans of the last century are very utilitarian. Thus there guns are usually heavy but very very strong. They are a tool that is meant to be used heavily for many years. The British seemed to make many of there guns as artistic pieces. They paid more attention to lines and balance as well as fit and finish. Why is that? Is it because in the last century that very few hunting opportunities have been open to the British? Thus those who had the ability to hunt were usually wealthier and could/would pay for the extra artistic efforts? My guess is that if there were more opportunity for the average Brit to hunt, there would be a lot more utilitarian pieces in addition to the high end Best guns.
As someone in the other thread stated. It really isn’t fair to compare a modern entry level DR maker to those that make Best grade guns. Thus in general (as have been most of my comparisons) I’d say the British best guns are rivaled by a few Italian firms. I’d say that someone like Searcy should best be compared with the Germans such as Merkel. After all the entry level guns of any firm are just flat made for different purpose and clientele than those that make best guns.
Again just my thoughts and opinions
Bill
| clark7781 |
| (.375 member) |
| 17/12/05 07:05 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Did anyone ever discover if something was wrong with the steel used in the barrel of CFA's Holland & Holland?
| 400NitroExpress |
| (.400 member) |
| 17/12/05 07:35 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Mick:
Just human nature.
It happens like this:
1. That most insidious of all endemic human cognitive disabilities - Fuckitis (the irrational compulsion to fix that which isn't broken) is preyed upon by
2. The lure of easy and/or substantial lucre.
Yeah, its just sales bullshit.
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| 500grains |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/12/05 08:16 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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In comparing old doubles to new doubles, perhaps we should also consider bolt guns. Is a newly-made M98 (by GMA) better than one made in 1905? I would say yes, but only if it is to be used for a high pressure cartridge. Is a Charles Daly Mauser made today any stronger than a 1914 Enfield action? Probably not, as the Enfield has been shown to stand up to 120,000 psi.
So would that mean that old doubles are just as strong as new ones? I would say probably not, as hard modern steel is more resistant to stretch and wear than older, softer steel. Every once in a while a vintage British double goes haywire, and it costs lots of money to fix. That tends to make guys very cautious.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 17/12/05 08:23 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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banzaibird
Re "Thus in general (as have been most of my comparisons)
I’d say the British best guns are rivaled by a few Italian firms."
Even the British would say that this is true - some of the Italian
(and high end Spanish) work is as good if not better.
400
"Yeah, its just sales bullshit."
300WSM good, the WSSM's taking it a bit far
and they came unstuck.
Just my HO
500 Nitro
| Rell |
| (.375 member) |
| 17/12/05 09:14 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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New guns are better and I'll tell you why.
After somethings been around for 100 years there is time to find the faults in it's design. Nothing is perfect, it may be perfectly adequate, but thats not the point. The design can always be tweeked to remove small or large problems. yes this may creat new ones, but over a century the new ones will also be found and removed.
The materials are just plain better as is the quality control of raw material components.
The only plus the old guns had was, maybe the skill of the craftsmen and the low cost of skilled labour. If Butch could pay a stockmaker with 20 years experience, 1.10$ an hour, he could produce some best rifles.
Thats just my two cents.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/12/05 10:35 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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rell
You miss my point, perhaps I should have been clearer.
If one were to build a new Double, but use the same steel that was used in 1920, would that rifle not be good enough for the NE cartridges? Would it not last 100 years like it's predecessors?
Was it not sufficient for the purpose? To build a Double Rifle that would last 100 years??
What advantage, in practical terms, do the newer steels that are being used today give? Do we need a steel that will hold together under pressures that will never be attained?
Do we need a rifle that will shoot a monolithic solid? Why? What is wrong with the older bullets?
Do stock makers make more today than they did in 1920?
| Grizzly |
| (.333 member) |
| 17/12/05 11:30 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Mick,
I can at least comment on steel, having grown up in "The Steel City", USA.
Modern steel is hellaciously stronger. Pre 1960 steel had impurities that tested its resolve. No fault of the older makers, they dealt with the steel of the day. It is softer, and tends to warp over time.
That is a huge compliment to the old English makers. They must have thrown a ton of barrels away that could not take the pressure.
Modern steel turns what was once an art of the double to a science.
The biggest complaint I have today is that almost none of the current rifle makers will deviate from a prescribed load. They void any warranty or guaranty.
Those makers are, in my estimation, not to be trusted. If you are building a double today, you better damn well keep up with modern powders. And bullets.
I do not like the Blaser, but I love ther floating barrel design. You regulate your own loads just like any other rifle you handload.
The makers today need to accept the new sear degigns that are an improvement and the floating barrel design. If they get with the program, we will have tremendous doubles.
I read something before about double evolution versus old school. Adopt the Ialain sear, the Blaser float, and stainless or newer and stronger steel, and doubles will rule the world.
If the old way was the right way, we would still be fighting major battles with muskets, and artillery and air support would be unheard of.
There is always room for improvement.
My biggest complaint? The people who make these new and improved rifles will not stand behind their product if you hand load. That is absolute BS.
If you make a rifle you are proud of, stand behind it! Period,, end of story.
| JPeterson |
| (.275 member) |
| 17/12/05 12:00 PM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Grizzly,
I agree with you 100% on the subject of steel. But if all DR barrels start looking like whats found on a Blaser that would be the end for me. IMHO double rifles should be made in the classic style with modern materials
| Grizzly |
| (.333 member) |
| 17/12/05 12:15 PM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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I agree also.
The Blaser is not for me. And based on the number of resales, not for most.
The Blaser is a rifle designed by an accountant.
And it is not long enough to kill dangerous game by clubing it to death.
Double makers today with modern steel are leaving us in the lurch. They are either too proud to change, or they cannot change because they will tear the shoestring they operate on.
I will speak for myself. Give me a damn good rifle that shoots where it points. And it will do that for thousands of rounds. I am a hunter, not a collector. I'll trade fancy for functional in a heartbeat.
And the first double maker that incorporates the latest and greatest will get my business forever.
Just my humble opinion.
| JPK |
| (.375 member) |
| 17/12/05 02:06 PM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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I beleive that a modern rifle can be and generally is built with better materials.. This goes from the steel and often to the wood.
I also believe that the double rifle design reached its zenith with the back action sidelock ejector long, long ago. Also at the zenith is the drop lock and round action - as in trigger plate action.
The problem with the older steel wasn't that it wasn't stong "enough" it generally was. The problem was that it wasn't consistant. We hear of a few barrels blowing up on older guns or chanbers bulged or the rifleing being over stressed by mono bullets. These are isolated incidents now since rifles still in use have largely proven themselves. And who knows the causes, latent defects or impurities in the steel, bad reloading, too much oil or seized grease... But I'd love to know how common the problem was in the proof house and in the feild "back then". A whole lot more common I'd bet. 70 or more years tends to weed out the rifles that started as poorly made junk, or those well made but with hidden flaws.
I wish every maker could make a set of barrels as good as a good English set but few can or do. I think this is the root of clubbiness and less than dynamic handleing.
On the no garuntee for reloading, well, chalk that one up to liability laws and lawyers. With a second going to some of our over enthusiastic or overly careless reloaders. A double only has to shoot well to the time proven ballistics to be a complete success on this front. There is no reason for a 470 double to shoot at say 2350fps.
I don't think modern "entry level" doubles should be compared to English rifles as a whole. They are really apples and oranges. But even as I say this I have to add that there were/are plenty of English rifles that couldn't hold a candle to a Searcy or a Merkel. Folks are talking of the Searcy, Merkel...being tools. All doubles rifles are tools, some just better and nicer than others. Plenty of clubby, cobbled English guns were made but some of the nicer tools were made by the English too.
It comes down to the individual gun and individual shooter really. Some rifles I pick up and think , "WOW!"; some I pick up and say, "whoa." The next guy might think differently, even if only because one fits him better. Some I wish I could pick up blindfolded cause I just can't get past the ugly or the beauty and how it fits, handles and shoots is really what counts. But I just can't live with the ugly!
But a good shooting, good fitting, ugly club is a better tool for the DG hunter than a beautiful ,well balanced, ill fitting show case.
JPK
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 17/12/05 03:05 PM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Gentlemen
The main difference between the "old" and the "new" doubles is $$$$$$$$ Money. New steel is better, we can all agree there. But the main difference is the way new doubles are made. You cannot make them like the old days because no one could afford them. I dare say even the craftsmen of the current British Companies do not employ the same skill as the British craftsmen in the early 1900's. Mainly because if time, time is $$$$ Money. Most of the new doubles are the way they are because they are made with modern techniques so the "common man" can afford one. Compared to a working grade new H&H or Weatley Richards the Merkel Krieghoff, Chapuis Searcy, ETC are good buys for the dollar.
The BEST rifle buy on the Planet today is an original British "working grade" double rifle.
If all "them" new double rifle companies would just copy the dimensions, feel, etc of my 450 No2, or my 450/400 or 400 Nitro's 450/400 they would have a great handling rifle made with modern manufacturing methods, at a price we could afford.
Why they do not do this is beyond me.
| Lovec |
| (.224 member) |
| 17/12/05 09:25 PM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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"Why they do not do this is beyond me."
NE450No2, this is exactly what has been on my mind for quite some time.
| JPK |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/12/05 03:46 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Apparently the thought has occurred to Butch Searcy. He has a new rifle coming out that will be called The Classic. I asked him about it and he told me that the new receiver profile allows him to make a trimmer wrist. The barrels will also have a slimmer profile with more taper. All together he believes he will trim a half pound from a 375. This new rifle should come in at 9lbs in 375 and 9 1/2lbs in 450/400. I understand that a larger receiver will be available for 470...
I asked what it would look like and he told me that it would look just like a WR boxlock. Case coloring and all. Price will be $12000 for about 20% coverage in scroll, no articulated trigger, no intercepting sears. Std wood will be exhibition grade and you can select your own in person or via email.
I'm going to send a deposit for a 375 Flanged on Monday. Hope it comes out looking and handling well. I've been looking for a suitable 375 for a while and just find nothing appealing in a price range I'm interested in and absolutely nothing that would fit or could be reasonably made to fit this lefty. Build time is "at least eight months".
JPK
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 18/12/05 05:01 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Sounds interesting. I hope he has a couple to look at this winter.
| bulldog563 |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/12/05 09:55 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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There should be one at SCI and DSC. I saw the barrels and beginning of the action at his shot. much more slender then his normal DR's. Should be pretty nice. Especially for 12 grand. After the 500 something in the 400's is hopefully in my future.
| JPeterson |
| (.275 member) |
| 18/12/05 10:21 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Bulldog563,
I noticed that you mentioned a 470 in this new DR, will the classic also be offered in the 500?
| bulldog563 |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/12/05 10:31 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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I don't think I said it would be a 470. To my knowledge it will be a 450/400. I also heard that it will be available in 375 flanged eventually. I would just call or email Butch he will tell you what is possible on the smaller action. It should be pretty nice though.
| JPeterson |
| (.275 member) |
| 18/12/05 10:59 AM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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Sorry Bulldog563 I was reading JPK's post
| JPK |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/12/05 12:20 PM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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PeterB, The new profile, color hardened action is currently available - as in you can order a rifle - in 375 Flanged and 450/400. I'm not sure if you could order a larger calibre yet but apparently they are in the works.
I have a bigger double, actually a Marcel Thys sidelock in 458wm, so I was looking for a smaller double rifle. I'll plunk down my $'s on Monday. I hope the new rifles are all trim and lively and good looking too. I'm a lefty and can go through 100 righty rifles to find one that works for me in the fit department, which is the critical area. Then its ussually been beat or is butt ugly. I haven't found any 375 flanged, or for that matter any 450/400's that I could live with. I don't love the way the current Searcy rifles look but can tolerate all about them. I hope what I don't love is taken care of with the new rifles, and I'm betting this is so.
JPK
| JPK |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/12/05 12:23 PM |
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Re: When is 'Good Enough' not Good Enough?
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OOPS. I see my post should have been directed to JPeterson.
Must be this evening's Guinuness...or two!
JPK