NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 12/10/03 02:28 AM |
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.375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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I was looking at a Kriefhoff "Big Five" double the other day and also noted they can be had in both .375 H&H Magnum and .375 Flanged among other calibres.
Now I always thought the Flanged version is loaded generally down in pressure and velocity a little due to it being used in weaker actions ie doubles and singles vs bolt actions for the Magnum version.
So if the Krieghoff can handle the magnum version could not a flanged version also be loaded to the same velocity levels?
(given the fact the flanged version is the only one that really seriously should be considered in a double).
Second question. If you had the choice of either a 9.3x74mmR or a .375 Flanged which would you go for? And why?
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 12/10/03 12:05 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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G'day Nitro
If you had a double in 375 flanged and loaded it up to 375 belted velocity it would be very unlikely to regulate.
If a rifle maker built a double in 375 flanged and regulated it for 375 belted velocity it would be unlikely to regulate with factory flanged ammo.
If you owned a rifle proofed for the flanged load it would NOT be wise to increase the velocity and pressure above that proof.
Personally I don't like the idea of high pressure cartridges being used in doubles regardless of modern action designs or so called better steels being used.
As far as choosing between 375 flanged and 9.3/74, I'd be quite happy with either.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 12/10/03 01:41 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Probably a moot point as the Flanged version seems to have adequate power in any case. I have seen comments over time than the Flanged 375 is under-powered for African dangerous game which really is a complete crock.
I actually loaded my .375 300 grain Woodleighs to only about 2450 fps in my bolt action and the FMJs still had no problem zipping through through a buff and the SPs did OK too. This is similar to the Flanged velocities in any case so I guess I answered my own question.
BUT 4seventy, if you had to choose between a 9.3x74mmR and a .375 Flanged Magnum, which would be your preference and why? Just out of interest.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 12/10/03 06:43 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Nitro X,
Before I make my choice, why am I buying this rifle?
I mean, what do I intend to use it for, as this would have a big influence on my final decision.
Are both rifles identical?
Will it be primarily for personal or safari use and on what game?
| Robie |
| (.275 member) |
| 13/10/03 11:46 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Hi
I would go for 9,3x74R. over the .375 Flanged, since factory ammunition is avaible almost every-where. The .375 Flanged is rare.
Krieghoff has a strong action and if you choose to hand-load you could "push" the Flanged.
Robie
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 15/10/03 12:28 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Nitro X
I would have to agree with Robie that 9.3/74 cases and ammo are easier to find than 375 flanged mag.
That said, even though I have a couple of hundred new Norma 9.3/74 cases in my cupboard, I'd go for the 375 flanged mag as it can easily do anything the 9.3 can do and at a lower chamber pressure.
If at some later time the rifle has to be resold, the 375 will draw a lot more interest than the 9.3 (except maybe in Europe) and should either be easier to sell or will bring better dollars or both.
As far as pushing veloity goes, this is a real good way to end up with a stuffed double.
When gradually working up to a desired velocity, bolt actions can show signs of excess pressure with tight bolt lift etc and usually warn you before damage is done.
Doubles will show signs of excess pressure by springing the action open and if the pressure is high enough, the rifle may already be damaged.
For anyone wanting to boost the power of the 375 flanged mag I'd suggest you do so buy going to a 500/416 or 470 or 500 NE.
Otherwise if you feel tempted to increase velocity/energy/pressure of an existing cartridge, do it with a bolt action not a double.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 17/10/03 01:12 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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All true but if the action can be used with factory .375 H&H Mag cartridges why would the same rifle chambered for the Flanged version be damaged by the same pressures? The only difference would be the actual brass case.
But very true about the regulation. The flanged would no doubt be regulated for the standard Flanged loads. But does anyone load factory flanged ammunition today anyway ????
(snipped due to a competition)
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 17/10/03 09:59 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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How do you know that the pressure in your boosted flanged reload is anywhere near the same as the pressure in a factory belted cartridge?
Remember that the 375 flanged magnum pressure is already right up there as far as double rifles go.
The 450 No2 runs at about 13 tons but the 375 flanged mag runs at about 18 tons!! Almost a 40% increase.
Kynoch currently lists 375 flanged magnum ammo along with many others including 450 No2.
Kreighoff doubles in cals up to 375 have a moveable wedge and regulation can be adjusted.
Don't know how well this system works though.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 17/10/03 01:25 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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4seventy
Do you load for the 9.3? I have had bad luck with the 9.3 Norma cases. They all seeem to ring on the second loading and seperate on the third, about .25 inch above the base. On anther board there was quite a long thread about it and many people agreeing that this was common.
Have you found this out? I through all of my Norma away. It was all from the early 90's so I am wondering if it has changed.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 18/10/03 10:38 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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mickey
No I don't reload a 9.3/74 but instead use the cases to make 400/350 brass for a double.
Yeah, that norma brass is quite thin compared to others like RWS.
I usually get 4 to 6 reloads from a case but then the rifle has a very strong and tight action.
I've had trouble with early norma cases that are headstamped NORMA-Re, and these seem to separate pretty quick.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 26/10/03 01:25 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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mickey
what brand of cases do you now use in your 9.3/74 and how many reloads do you get from them before a seperation?
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 26/10/03 01:43 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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I am using RWS. I have a couple of boxes of Browning but was told that is also Norma, I don't know. It doesn't matter as I have about 100 of the RWS.
When the Norma started to come apart I thought something was wrong with the rifle.
I will not buy Norma because of the trauma that caused me, it is my favorite one. 
In the bottom pic the rifle is sitting on skippys.
| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 28/10/03 07:53 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Very nice looking rifle. What make?
I never understood the reasoning behind the .375 Flanged Magnum. Obviously, it's pressure is reduced because of that issue way back when. But the .375 H&H is widely available in doubles now.
It is too bad no one ever developed a full power .375 flanged, maybe a .375 Flanged SUPER Magnum. Just use a bigger case to reduce the pressure.
The 500/416 is a good idea, if it was only avaialble in stock rifles other than the Kreighoff!
But a .375 H&H at 100 yards is probably close to a .375 Flanged Magnum at the muzzle, so just use the Flanged at point blank range.
| Robie |
| (.275 member) |
| 28/10/03 11:48 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Hi Will. Blaser is making a side-by-side S-2 in .500/416 as well as 375HH and .470NE.
Robie
| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/10/03 01:18 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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There is no accounting for taste, including mine, as the Blaser does nothing for me. Especially that lip over the upper half of the barrels, which I see as a hinderance to reloading.
Give me sex in a double, not machining marks from a robot.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/10/03 02:30 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Will
It is a 9.3x74R. Made by the head gunmaker of Francotte as his personnel rifle in 1935. Despite Cartridges of the World etc. it is not almost a 375, closer to a 35 Whelan, but it is more than sufficient for anything except Buffalo, Ele and Hippo. For those animals there are better options available.
I don't like the idea of a rimless, higher pressure case in a Double. I know that it is done but there is too much that can go wrong with a rimless case. Sort of like a rimmed case in a bolt rifle. You can build a 450#2 in a bolt but it is not really the type of cartridge you would want to use for a variety of reasons including feeding and extraction.
While steel has improved in the last 100 years the design has remained the same and it is not a design for high pressure cartridges. I don't think it would fail but come off the face faster and require constant attention for fit. Those dinky little extractors are not for piece of mind either. Murphy's Law and all that.
| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/10/03 04:17 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Mick,
I totally agree that rimless cartridges are out of place in a double rifle. I had one in .375 H&H for awhile but it is not the best plan.
That is a beautiful rifle of yours. The 9.3x74R is nice but lacks the horsepower I would like. I hear that the Chapius in 9.3x74R is a very nice, sleek double but I have never seen one in person.
What has always baffled me is that the gunmakers can make sleek and sexy doubles in .375 H&H or the 9.3x74R at 7.5 or 8 lbs. but as soon you jump to the 450/400 or 470, all of a sudden we have to have 11 or 12 lb. bludderbusses.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/10/03 04:50 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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You are right about the sleekness. Most Doubles seem to have been built on standard size actions. I have a friend who has a 360#2 that was built on a very slim action by Lang and it is very nice, about 8lbs. Another friend has a Wilkes in 360#2 what is on the same size action as their 470's. 10..5lbs.
My little rifle weighs 7lbs without the scope and 8 with. Check out the pictures of my 450/400 3.25 in the 'Double Rifles Accuracy' thread for a slim and nice rifle.
I have a .577 Thys that weighs 10.5 lbs Light to carry but wales the crap out of you.
| Will |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/10/03 07:27 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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I don't know where in the world you are, but you have a bucket load of nice double rifles.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 29/10/03 08:49 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Will
I use a 470 which weighs a fart over 9 pounds and it comes up and feels just like a 375 except for the recoil.
mickey
360 No2 by Lang on a slim action eh!
I had one of those myself ,and yes it was real nice and a real good shooter as well.
| IronBuck |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/10/03 11:32 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Mikey:
Wow.........what a beautiful rifle! What kind of groups do you get with something like that at 100 yards? What range do you have it sighted for dead on? Just curious.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/10/03 01:33 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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IronBuck
This rifle shoots into about 3" at 100 yards. Either scoped or not. The scope is set to shoot the right barrel 1 inch high at 100 yards. It shoots to this point of aim every time.
| NE450No2 |
| (.375 member) |
| 17/11/03 03:14 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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I have a 9,3x74R Chapuis with a 2.5x8 Leupold in their QD mount. It has become my favorite rifle under 40cal.
No doubt the 375 has a little more "paper ballistics" than the 9,3 but I doubt any animal could tell the difference.
The Chapuis only weighs 7 1/4lbs [without scope] and is a joy to carry.
If a 375 H&H double would work flawlessly it would be a great choice as ammo is widely available.
375 Flanged Magnum would be a best seller in new doubles if the ammo was widely available, wish Federal and Chapuis, Krieghoff, Merkel etc could get together and promote the 375 Flanged Magnum.
Double D is correct, I have edited my post to "say" what I mean.
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/11/03 11:24 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Nitrox,
Just to muddy the waters a little...the .375 NE that is referred to as under powered for Africa is the .375 Flanged 2 1/2in Nitro Express and not the .375 Flanged Magnum Nitro Express.
Kynoch is making new ammo for both.
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/11/03 03:53 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Like most double rifle owners, I'm not fond of a rimless, or belted rimless cartridge in a double rifle, whether or not it is to be used for dangerous game!
The 375 H&H belted mag double can be bought for a little less because of the chambering.(Read used "NEW" make) This is a boon to the 375 H&H Flanged fan, because the double chambered for the rimless round is easily re-worked to a flanged 375 chamber. A simple cylindrical drilling out of the BELT AREA, for a bushing with an undersize hole through it, can be recut for the flanged chamber, Then cut the flange area, along with reworking the extractor for the flange, and you have a 375 H&H Flanged double! Now, if you want a flanged rifle, that is regulated to 375 H&H Belted mag velocities, you have it! I think, however I would simply see if the factory flanged rounds would regulate first. If they didn't, one can always handload. I do anyway, because most doubles that are chambered for rimless cartridges are very well made, and strong, within reason, and the regulation with factory ammo can usually be improved on by handloading, in any given double, be it old or new flanged, or rimless!
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/11/03 09:32 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Mac
Have you done this? I know where a very nice Heym two barrel set in 458WM and 375 H&H is at a very reasonable price. I had thought about the 450 3.25 or #2 but didn't consider it because of the Mag in 375. Isn't the body of the cartridge a bit different also?
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/11/03 10:31 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Yes Mick, they are different cases, and what you end up with is acentually a wildcat, that is formed by fireing a slightly shortened, factory Flanged case in the H&H chamber that has had the belt area is removed,bushed, and re-cut. Sort of like a 375 Flanged improved! Still you have a flanged cartridge instead of a belted rimless one, and ballistics are about the same. Here are the numbers, in inches!
375 Flanged/ 375 H&H Mag
case length 2.94 ............ 2.850
head dia .511 ............ .513
Rim dia .572 ............ .532
neck dia .404 ............ .405
neck length .444 ............ .300
shoulder Lgth .096 ............ .197
body angle .794 ............ .705
loaded length 3.08 ............ 3.60
belt dia N/A ............ .532
rim thick .05 ............ .o49
shoulder angle 13.47 .......... 7.95
Shoulder dia .450 .......... .460
case capacity 97.21 .......... 96.37 grs water
The 450 NE 3.25" or the 450#2 either will completely clean out the 458 Win Mag chamber, so it is a no brainer, but sometimes needs re-regulateing! Most times they don't, because they push their bullets at about the same speed.
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/11/03 11:36 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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The measurements I found for the Flanged are are virtually the same as posted.
I do find some differences in the HH, but I'm not sure the are significant. The HH has a 15 degree shoulder for one thing.
The comparison of measurement of the head diameter is not relevant from belted to flanged as they are measured at two different locations. The belted is measured at .220 from the datum line and the flange is measured .060 from the datum line. Now I suppose If I did the math and projected the angle so they were in the same spot the difference would still be insignificant.
An alternative not mentioned was to simply bush the chamber to remove the belt but leave the H&H rim. Then turn the belts off H&H cases.
You would have a rifle marked .375 H&H and cases to match that are flanged and not belted also marked .375H&H.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/11/03 01:19 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Nonononono, The problem isn't with the belt but with the rim. The case should head spaces on the rim not the neck or the belt.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 30/11/03 03:24 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Mick,
Not sure what model Heym you were looking at but there is another thing to consider regarding rechambering these particular doubles to a flanged cartridge.
Some Heym doubles have the barrel spacing at the chambers so close that there is little room to accommodate a larger case diameter and definately NO room to accommodate the flange diameter.
A friend once owned a model 88 sidelock in 375 H&H belted mag and the chambers were so close together that they only just cleared the Greener type barrel extension.
The barrels were so close together that looking at them from the top it was hard to believe that they were chambered for 375.
If the gun you're talking about is the same action as that one my mate had then it may be too narrow to rechamber to flanged.
Worth checking out.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/11/03 04:02 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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When I get a chance I will check. The 4503.25 should be alright and the 375 barrels should be wider to accomodate the larger caliber in the 458. Might not work and that is why it is not a good idea to use rimless cartridges.
| 4seventy |
| (Sponsor) |
| 30/11/03 04:27 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Mick, Have a look at this and you'll see what I mean.
www.mcdonaldsgunshop.com/archives/heym1.htm
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 01/12/03 03:20 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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If the issue was that the barrels were so close together that H&H couldn't be reworked to take the true flanged case then sleeving the H&H chamber to remove the H&H belt but leave the H&H rim would be the perfect solution. When the bushing was rebored it would have to be set to force the headspace to the H&H rim and not the shoulder.
Keep in mind on the cases you are turning off the belt and not the rim.
And again you would have properly marked barrels with properly marked cases for those countries that check that. I don't think they would notice that the belts were turned off the cases.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 01/12/03 04:46 AM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Double D
One of the biggest problems with rimless cases, along with pressure, is the possibility of the little ear breaking, the tiny spring that pushes out the ear breaking or the whole little extractor getting dirty and failing to extract the case.
By removing the belt this problem is not addressed. If one was going to stick to a rimless case then having a belt would not be a hinderance one way or the other.
| DoubleD |
| (.400 member) |
| 01/12/03 03:27 PM |
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Re: .375 Magnum vs Flanged in a double
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Oh, I see what your getting at, the springloaded extractor needed for rimless and belted cases. Of course you are right...for belted and rimless cases.
Once you turn the belt off the H&H case you don't need the spring loaded extractor. A fixed extractor will work just fine. (Never worked on a Hyem so I don't know if it has a fixed extractor, it must because I see the .375 Fl MAG NE listed as one of the calibers it comes in.)
Keep in mind the H&H cases aren't in the truest sense rimless cases, they are rimmed cases with a belt. Once you turn the belt off they are back to being rimmed cases. The H&H rim is .523 in diameter, the head is right around .510
As far as pressure goes, removing the belt is not going affect anything. You will have a case constructed like any of the modern rimless cartridges. No different than say a 404 Jeff or .416 Rigby, except this one will have a rim and extractor groove. The head is going to be fully supported by chamber wall.