Judson
(.300 member)
12/10/05 07:07 AM
Building a double rifle

I am new to this Forum and it looks to be great! I am a gun smith living up in Maine and started building double rifles a few years ago. My current project is a 450 # 2 N. E. and it is just about done other then the checkering. I regulated it to be about 1.25" apart at 50 yards. If you people would like, and I can figure out how to do it I will post some pictures and describe building this rifle.
This is the rifle before I finished regulating it and rust blued it. The stock is of South African Blackthorn.


mickey
(.416 member)
12/10/05 09:06 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Absolutely. I think we would love a blow by blow description. A very nice looking piece of wood also.

One question though, why did you regulate it for 1.25" @ 50 yards? Is that the center to center bore measurement?



JPeterson
(.275 member)
12/10/05 09:18 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Thats really cool, lets hear some details.

MauserRifle
(.300 member)
12/10/05 11:41 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson

That is a fine looking DR. Please give us all the particulars.

I am curious as to what type of action you used?


Judson
(.300 member)
13/10/05 08:39 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

This rifle started out as a French Fusal Robust 16 gauge with pitted bores, no stock and a great price of $60.00.
I bought it years ago when I had just opened my gun smithing business and was doing some repair work for a gunshop in Corena Maine. The owner of the gunshop did not like my quote as to the cost of restocking the gun so I got it for what he had in it. My plan was to turn it into a double rifle but back then I did not know quite how to go about this. I thought about sleeving the barrels and other such measures, which are not the right way to do things. As with so many projects the little 16 ended up in a drawer, not forgotten but on the back burner. Time past, and I read as much as I could find on building double rifles and kept the 16 project in the back of my mind.
Over the years more and more we got into building bigger caliber rifles and a few for people who hunted Africa. Several of these people, very happy with the bolt guns I had built for them, kept pestering me to get into building double rifles. Since I have always loved doubles and finally convinced my wife that this was a good idea the project started.

The Fusal Robust had all the features one looks for when evaluating an action for a double rifle. It had double underlugs, a third fastener, (hidden) one piece mono block and small diameter firing pins which would not require bushing. Where it was a 16 gauge I wanted a low pressure cartridge and after some investigation found that the .450 # 2 Nitro Express is about the lowest pressure cartridge going. (25,000 C.U.P.) By figuring out the head area of the 450 compaired to the 16 ga shell and compairing this to the origional proof loads I found that the 450 would be far pressure then the proof loads so in theory I should be safe. Even with this in mind when I re proofed the gun it was a tence moment!!!! It was proofed with a 500 grain bullet with 18 grains over the max for a 465 grain bullet.


500Nitro
(.450 member)
13/10/05 08:47 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


Judosn,

It's good to see someone doing things the right way as oppsed to
just trying to turn something worth $100 into $10000 without
regard for the consequences - as some so called gun dealers /
gun smiths seem to do in the US.

Well done - I am impressed.

I agree with you re the action - sounds perfect in how it is made
and the size. Should make a nice slim double rifle.

What barrels did you use ?

How did you attached the barrels - by using the exisiting mono bloc
(ie did you sleeve them into the mono block) or completely remake the lumps etc as well ?

500 Nitro


Judson
(.300 member)
13/10/05 09:54 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Well I was going to edit my last post and add a picture I had to go find, but I guess I will for go that and do another post.

The first thing I did after checking out the action as to it's strength was to strip it down and check it out internally. It had dog tooth tumblers. (This is the British way of saying that the firing pin is part of the hammers.) Since the 450 is very low pressure I elected not to go to bushed firing pins as chances of a blowen primer are not a concern at the 450s pressure. Next I looked at the barrels and found the mono block to be one piece of machined steel. I decided to use the origional mono block and again partly due to the low pressure, and also how thin the front edge of the mono block was to solder the barrels into the mono block as was done in years past instead of threading them. This was a comon practice and if all parts are tined first a good solder joint is almost assured. On the other hand the quarter rib was silver brazed into place this would make sure that nothing moved during the reheating and re soldering requiered during regulating. If this picture comes out it will show the 16 ga. apart and the origional barrels removed from the mono block. I will try to post another picture of the barrels fitted to the mono block on this same post it you will stick with me for a few.

this is after the barrels were fitted to the mono block but they have not yet been soldered into place.


Daryl_S
(.600 member)
14/10/05 03:04 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Wonderful blow-by blow - thankyou very much. I am keenly interested in further posts. I see a side-by-side double rifle in my future, now.

Judson
(.300 member)
14/10/05 09:22 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I am getting a bit ahead of my self. Before the barrels can be fitted to the mono block they have to be short chambered. Once they are soldered or threaded and soldered into the mono block the new extractor is made and the final chambering and head spacing is done. Once finished with this three wedges were made for this rifle. On this double I made the wedges slightly larger then the gaps between the barrels. One wedge was installed several inches in front of the forearm,(if all worked out well this would become the sling swivel) The next wedge about half way between the first and the muzzel and the third at the muzzel. These wedges could be driven along the tapper of the barrels to change the point of impact of the bullets during the regulating process. The barrels and wedges were held in place with hose clamps during the regulating and untill finally soldered into place.
Now the fun begins!!! Load up some ammo and get to shooting and regulating. I checked the barrels and set them up to the same point of aim with a bore sighter. Then I recorded this info in my note book. Then it was out to the range behind my shop and fire four shots, two from each barrel. If you do this make sure to mark each shot as to right or left barrel or else things will get confusing very fast! With this rifle the barrels were crossing at 50 yards, which I thought would happen. This would mean that the wedges would have to move to the rear to spread the barrels. I did not move all three though, only the front wedge. A little change in the position of the wedges is a big change of point of impact! I continued this process untill I was happy with the groups. I ended up with 1.25" difference between the left and right barrel at 50 yards, height is the same and I left well enough alone as that is slightly less then the center to center spread of the barrels. I have not tried the rifle at 100 yards but the gap should close and in theory be converging into one group. (All this sounds great on paper, we will see!)


This is during the regulating process and belive me, I am at full recoil, the rifle was on the sand bags! Really the rifle is nice to shoot, just a big push, not a jab. If you notice there is very little muzzel jump as there is very little drop in the stock. Again I am getting a bit ahead of the story since I had to make the stock before I could regulate the rifle but I am comming to that.


Judson
(.300 member)
16/10/05 08:39 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


The process of regulating goes as follows. I fired four shots, two from each barrel. All shots were marked as to which barrel so as to avoid confusion. Then it is back into the shop and I checked the barrels with the bore sighter and recorded this in my note book. Now out comes the tourch and I heat the wedges to the point where I can move them in order to change the point of impact. Driving the front wedge to the rear will spread the point of impact. If the hose clamp on the front wedge is left tight driving the middle wedge to the rear will have the oppisite effect and bring the shots closser togther. Once the adjustments are made the wedges are re soldered and allowed to cool and it is back to the range and try again. Regulating the rifle was a long process, around 50 shots, however I found it to be very enjoyable and chalanging.
By the way, if any of you want to try building your own double rifle there is a very good book on the subject. It is Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions written by Mr.W. Ellis Brown. I do some things different then stated in his book but I am not saying he is wrong just that we do some things different. In any case his book is well worth the money and I got a great deal of vital information from it!! Pluss, it is very enjoyable reading.

If this picture comes out it will be of me working on the regulating of the barrels. You get lots of intrest when you take a torch to a rifle in order to get it to hit where you want. Do this at a public range and like Mr. Brown states, no one wants your help in sighting in their rifles!!!!




Marrakai
(.416 member)
16/10/05 12:03 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson:
there have been a few threads on this topic before, some quite detailed and one in particular a little lively! You might profitably spend a rainy Sunday flicking through all the old threads on this topic and reading any of interest to you. Here's a head-start:

Two-pager

Another...

and Another

Lively three-pager!

and one on Backthrust.

Quite a bit of the previously-published stuff is speculative, and has been heavily influenced by Ellis-Brown's text. Even though a number of members have built their own, and hunted with them, any additional hands-on experience and first-hand advice is highly valued. I would be interested in your views on 'moment of inertia' and how to retain the quick-handling characteristics so important in designing a working SxS double. Many US 'smiths appear to be reluctant to slim down the barrels towards the muzzles, which is crucial to the 'liveliness' of the finished rifle.


Judson
(.300 member)
17/10/05 10:12 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


I built my rifle rather heavy as I have Rheumatoid Arthritis through my whole body. I would rather carry a heavy, in this case 12.5 pounds rifle then deal with the recoil of a 10.5 pound gun, which is about right for a 450 # 2 N.E. However weight and the speed of which a gun handles are not total oppisites. Ballance is critical as well as stock design. If you do not believe this pick up a Holland & Holland .577 and try its swing. No I do not want to carry it all day in 110 degree climates but in these times we do not have to.
Probably the biggest reason that most U.S. gunsmiths do not like the tappered to the muzzel barrels is due to the fact that on this side of the pond most of us do not shoot rifles with any degree of recoil. Many people who stop by my shop are reluctant to shoot a .338 as they feel it will kick them out from under their their hat. For the most part up here in Maine a 30-06 is about the upper recoil limit. You have to look at it in this perspective. Most Americans who hunt fire around a box of ammo per year. Few have hunted out side the U.S. and those that have for the most part still fall into the box a year catigory. Recoil is somthing you have to work up to, just like with a child, you do not start them out with a 12 gauge. The light muzzel weight double you mention is great for a seasoned shooter but most over here would find the recoil too much.
I have to put this in though, A properly designed rifle with a bit more weight may be a tad slower to bring up but it will be one hell of a lot faster on that second trigger.
I am no expert but with that rifle of mine I can put 2 bullets into an 8" circle at 50 yards in under 4 seconds on a good day. I do not really know how good that is but I feel sort of pleased with that.


Judson
(.300 member)
17/10/05 10:49 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


I mentioned before that this action did not have a stock. Now for the stock. The Blanc is South African Blackthorn and it was given to me on my first African hunt so it seemed right to use on this rifle. In our shop we specialise in building stocks/ rifles to fit the shooter and thus stock design is critical. The less drop the less muzzel jump you have. This is due to the fact that the recoil is directed straighter into your shoulder. Also if you look at your shoulder and where your eyes are you will notice that where the butt of a rifle ends up and your eye do not line up. This is where cast off for a right handed shooter, cast off for a left handed shooter comes in. If you angle the stock around .5" and have minimal drop you will find that you do not have to drop your cheek to the stock or cheek piece and you will also see that the rifle tends to point when shouldered to where you are looking. This does not just apply to double guns but any gun. In my eyes stock design is critical to how a gun handles. If you look at the picture of me shooting the 450 you will see that the gun is off the sand bags, however if you look close you will see that the muzzel is not jumping I am rocking back. Set up like this recovery for a second shot is minimal and you feel less recoil as it is directed against your shoulder and not against your shoulder and cheek bone.
The first thing you do when designing a stock is look at the wood and try to see the stock in the blank. You want the grain to flow from as far back in the butt as possable through the grip and into the forearm as possable. Never go for pretty grain over strength!
Once you have done this cut out the blank and inlet the action, once this is done the fun begins!!!! Fit your pad or butt plate and all lines work forward from there. A good rifle will have smooth flowing lines, your eye will follow from one end of the rifle to the other with no harsh angles which stop this flow. Strive for that perfect marrage between wood and metal. When you run your hands over a good rifle you should only notice a difference in texture between the wood and the metal.
When I was 12 years old I was told this by Mr. Wallace Gussler, these are words I never forgot and strive to achieve.
If this picture comes out it will show me fitting the pad to the stock. I had drawen out its size prior to roughing out the stock but as it is now time for the final shapping the pad has to be installed so that it can be worked down with the stock to achieve as near to perfect fit as possable. From this piont on the pad will not be removed from the stock, all sanding and finishing will have the pad in place so that it will blend in perfectly.


NE450No2
(.375 member)
17/10/05 04:27 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

My 450 No2 has 28" barrels, weighs 11 3/4 Lbs.
It is ballanced perfectly and fits me better than any rifle I have. The 450 No2 is a great double rifle cartridge.


Judson
(.300 member)
18/10/05 09:14 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

N.E. 450 # 2 I was wondering if I would find you here. Thank you for the loading information it has been a big help! I will be trying the 350 grain loads you mentioned tomorrow if it does not rain.
Now once we have the stock firret we must take care of the detailing. Shadow lines are nice but they should be fine and slightly under cut. I usually run a shadow line around the cheek piece which also has the edges undercut.
The wood should be cut nearly down to the metal and finished flush with the metal during sanding. To acomplish this you may as well plan on a bluing job as there is no other way to get a perfect wood to metal fit but to sand down the stock with the metal in place. If the gun you are restocking is engraved you have to be very careful as you do not want fadded or missing engraving where the wood meets the metal.
Hay, I am sorry if I am giving too much detail about all this, please let me know. At times I get a bit carried away as I love my job and ramble at times about my work.

For those of you not familiar with the 450#2 if this picture comes out you will see it compared to a .243 Winchester.


JPeterson
(.275 member)
18/10/05 09:34 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Please feel free to ramble. I, and I'm sure other members, find your project very interesting to say the least. I hope that you keep us updated on your progress.

NE450No2
(.375 member)
18/10/05 06:08 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson, I agree with JPeterson. Give us all the details.
Building a double rifle is a great undertaking.
The more different double rifle calibres I shoot and help people load for the more I like the 450 No2.

I bought my 450 No2 on the recommendation of George Caswell at Champlin Arms. To say I am very happy with it is an understatement.
I also bought my 450/400 3 1/4" on his recommendation. I have been well pleased with that double rifle and with the calibre.
Either one of the 450/400's just might be the best double rifle calibre for the Safari of the Modern Man.
Still the 450 No2, with an elephant in its sights, is MY Holy Grail.


Marrakai
(.416 member)
18/10/05 07:08 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

The problem with building heavy-calibre double rifles on shotgun actions using the existing monobloc is that it is near impossible to get the weight-distribution right. Shotgun barrels taper steeply from the breech-face, so they make it hard to keep the weight high around the area of the hinge-pin, 'between the hands' as it were.

Its fine to say that such a big-calibre rifle should be 'heavy' and leave it at that, but that extra couple of pounds we're talking about simply must be added between the hands, NOT in the barrels out towards the muzzles. To build a 12.5 lb rifle on a shotgun action without making a new monobloc essentially means that the barrels will have to be made very heavy along their entire length, including the muzzles. Such rifles can't help but be un-handy to hunt with, as well as being tiring to carry. I know: my .577, although short, has these tendencies. A lively, quick-handling double simply has to have the weight back between the hands, and isn't that the essence of shooting a SxS double after all?

Perhaps this sketch will help illustrate my point:



I have often thought of trying to get hold of depleted uranium rod to insert into the head of the butstock, or at least a steel-tube filled with mercury. This would add weight back of the hinge-pin, but just forward of the trigger-hand. Still in the 'too-hard' basket at the moment however. Simply adding weight under the recoil-pad to 'balance' a heavy-barrelled rifle does more harm than good IMHO, as it increases the moment of inertia even more and makes the rifle even less lively to shoot in the hunting field.

Once you have hunted with a well-proportioned double, you will find it difficult to use heavy-barreled rifles again. My Jeffery .400 has really spoiled me in this regard. Here's a pic of GG's old .400 double, a Webley boxlock, which illustrates well the proper proportions for correct 'moment of inertia', or good handling qualities.





This is what we should be striving for when we make the effort to build rifles out of shotguns, or indeed from scratch, rather than simply making a shooting machine that has two barrels.

I hope the readership will take my comments in good faith, they are not intended to criticize anyone's stirling efforts, but hopefully will add something of value to the think-tank. As I said at the beginning, it is near-on impossible to achieve this magic weight-distribution, but imho THAT, NE450No2, is the TRUE Holy Grail of double rifle craftsmanship!


Will
(.333 member)
18/10/05 11:29 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Marrakai,

You might be right about this inertia thing, maybe, but personally I see no reason for the heavy barrels and heavy weight to begin with. All the 450's are only 5100 ft-lbs and needing an 11 -12 lb. rifle, as in the old days for sure, is just baloney. A kid could shoot those old clubs without getting hurt! Like a 450/400 I say advertised at Cabelas, almost 12 lbs. That can hardly be handy regardless of the weight distribuition.

Handy isn't really found until you get down to the small frame 375's and 9.3's, in the 8 lb. or less class. IMO.


Judson
(.300 member)
19/10/05 07:52 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


Thank you for your input and your point about ballance is well taken. I am lucky with this project as have you ever picked up a piece of Blackthorn? This wood is very heavy and dence so keeping the balance was not much of a problem. Also the quater rib is not hollow as many are I wanted the weight back there. No this caliber rifle does not need this much weight but like I mentioned with the R.A. I would like the rifle heavy to slow the recoil a bit.
There is a guy around here who builds 45-70 doubles by sleezing the barrels, he uses such actions as Savage 311 and other low strength and cheep doubles not only IMHO dumb but it really shows your point about the ballance they are clubs, and slow clubs at that! My rifle balances just forward of the hindge pin with out the scope and a bit back on the action with it in place.
This point about ballance is good to bring up. In our shop we specialise in building guns to fit the shooter. I want a rifle, when brought to the shoulder to point where the shooter is looking. This involves not only such things as cast off or cast on but also just as important is ballance. A heavy, properly fitted and ballanced rifle, (if you are used to the weight) will still handle fast and point true. The same can not be said for a poorly ballanced and fitted light rifle.
One more thing, that is a very nice rifle you have there!! And keep throwing your two cents worth into the think tank I value your imput and comments.


Judson
(.300 member)
20/10/05 08:21 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


Back to the stock work I guess. Once the stock is fully shaped and detailed it is time to start the sanding out and finishing. With all metal that meets the wood in place and your pad or butt plate on the stock it is time to begin. The rough sanding is done with 120 grit, this is just to get rid of the file and rasp marks. Once finished with this I wet sand with 220 grit using mineral spirits as a wetting agent and so the paper does not fill up so fast. When no sanding marks from the 120 are able to be found and the stock is still wet with the mineral spirits I wipe it down and apply the first coat of finish.
For finish I use either thinned Birch Wood Casy Tur Oil or Super Goo (We make that stuff) or a combination of the two. This first coat can be brushed on however as finishing goes on each coat is rubbed in by hand. Once the first coat dries again the sanding process starts again, but this time it is with 320 grit and mineral spirits. Again wipe the stock down, apply a coat of finish and keep going with finer and finer paper until all the pores of the wood are filled. I go as fine as 600 grit during the finishing and the last few coats are buffed out instead of sanding. I never use any filler partly because most contain silica which eats checkering tools but primarily because fillers make the pores of the wood stand out. This process of wet sanding, wipeoff the dust and apply a coat of finish process fills the pores with the wood dust and finish. Since I do not have a digital camera you will have to waite a bit for pictures of how the 450s stock looks finished. I still have to do the checkering, what do you guys think I should do, point pattern or a fill in Fleur Di Lis pattern.


tinker
(.416 member)
20/10/05 11:01 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Checkering?

My vote's for a fill in Fleur Di Lis pattern.
Should look nice and it'll have a bit of an American gunsmith feel to it...


--Tinker


MauserRifle
(.300 member)
20/10/05 11:20 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson

I just returned home last night and have only just finished reading all of your posts on your DR. Thank you for such a datailed report on your project and the fine photos you have included with your posts.

I personally have throughly enjoyed reading your step by step report. You are going to have one fine DR to be very proud of when finished.

I personally like the point pattern!


Judson
(.300 member)
22/10/05 08:54 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


As to the checkering, one vote for each style. I guess I will waite for a few more votes. One thing I have found about building double rifles is the hole concept is addictive!!! You find some long forgotten gun with all the charistics needed for a double rifle and reserect it into some thing finer then it was and give it a new life.
It is sort of like working with an old, military action you fuss, cut, tinker until it is just right and from the ugly duckling comes the swaun. I guess that is what I like about building custom rifles for a living. I also guess I am trying to tell you I found another canidate for a double rifle. This too is a French 16 gauge, (Where are all the 12 gauges?) it has side clips, third fastener, double under lugs and double bites. The cute little gun was double proofed and this means its proof loads were far higher then pressure then the 450#2 or the 475#2 so I have several choices. I am on the reluctant side about the 475 due to the gun being a 16 but the pressure per squaire inch is the same and due to the bigger bore it would come out lighter and ballance better then a 450.
If any of you have had experance with the .475#2 N.E. let me know what you think, please. This new project gun was built by Brunet A Chartres and is lightly engraved with a color case hardened reciever, do any of you know any thing about his guns?


mickey
(.416 member)
22/10/05 10:29 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I'm not sure what info you are looking for about the 475 #2. I can tell you that the most accurate double I have ever seen, or even heard about, is a 475 #2 Holland. 8 shots inside an inch at 100 yards.

It belongs to a friend who refuses to sell it for some reason.


It will do anything that any of the others will. It will make a bigger thwamp when you drop it in the chamber.




pwm
(.300 member)
23/10/05 03:53 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

you asking where the 12 bore shotguns are, 100 years ago the 16 bore was "the shotgun" in europe. I understand this, it looks allways better.
The 12 bore was a special gun for shooting waterfowl.


Daryl_S
(.600 member)
23/10/05 04:08 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

12 was quite popular for pigeon shooting in England.

Judson
(.300 member)
23/10/05 09:08 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


One of the things I love about double rifles is the thump, thump when you drop the cartridges into the chambers! Another thing about doubles and cartridges like the .450 # 2 is up here in Maine lots of people, when they see the rifle and cartridge have to ask; "What in hell can you hunt with that!?" Usually I smile and reply; "Any thing any where in the world, even deer." The 30/30 croud usually shake their head and go away thinking I need a shrink.
Now back to the 450. The front sight on my 450 I made, I have seen the flip up ivory beads for low light condition and the sights with changable blades. I have also seen many of the flip up kind which were broken or been bent and few of the rifles with the inter changable sight blades seemed to bave both origional blades. To solve this potential problem I built my front sight a bit different.
On my sight, for normal conditions you have a steel sight blade with a brass insert. For low light, though not traditional, you have fiber optics. To change sight bladed you poll a spring loaded checkered steel button towards the rear of the rifle and rotate the blade 180 degrees. The button snaps into a detent so the sight can not move under recoil. If you people would like I will post some pictures of this sight as soon as I get them back.


nopride2
(.300 member)
23/10/05 12:26 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Great post. Nice work, thanks for sharing. A point pattern would be more traditional.

Dave


mehulkamdar
(.416 member)
23/10/05 01:47 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson,

Thanks for a series of fantastic posts. CCSO on these forums has a friend who builds his own rifles on shotguns in South Dakota. Maybe you guys could swap ideas and give us even more posts to enjoy.

Best wishes and good hunting with your rifle. Nothing could be more satisfying than hunting with a rifle that one has built oneself!


mickey
(.416 member)
23/10/05 02:41 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson

This is very interesting . Keep it up with more pictures for us guys too dull to understand the words.


Judson
(.300 member)
23/10/05 10:04 PM
Re: Building a double rifle


As soon as I get the pictures back I will post them, and I would love to talk with the guy building doubles you mentioned, great idea!


Judson
(.300 member)
24/10/05 10:44 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Like I said earlier I was getting ahead of the story. I had to make the stock in order to be able to shoot and regulate the rifle. Regulating a double is a lot of fun, if you like shooting. It is challenging as it requires you to think in, well, sort of the abstract as things do not always seem as they are in reality.
One thing you must have is the ability to solve a puzzle. You have one wedge behind the frone sight, one further back and another which will end up you front swivel if all works out well. All this mess is held togther with hose clamps. Most of this I mentioned before however I left out the weird stuff!! For example, my rifle was crossing, meaning that the right barrel was hitting to the left of left barrel. One would assume that the solution would be to spread the muzzel of the rifle a bit. Moving the front wedge to the rear did little and it was then that out of desperation I tried driving the center wedge forward and solved the problem.
What was going on was that the center wedge was too far back and causing the barrels to cross as they were bowed.
Yes I could of driven the front wedge further to the rear and eventuially solved the problem but the idea is to get the barrels to shoot right with as little tention as possable. Tension trying to hold the barrels togther is not a problem but if there is tension trying to seperate them then there is the possibility of a joint failure. This would not be dangerous from a shooting perspective but from a charging buff aspect it would be very, very, bad!!!
Once the regulating was finally finished it was time to build the forearm. For the regulating I used the origional as I had it and did not want to make the new one until I knew where the barrels would end up in relation to the forearm hanger and the action. Making the forearm is the same process as the stock. You fit it to, in this case the forearm iron and then to the action and the barrels. with a classy job the ridge which meets the bottom ridge of the barrels will extend as far back as possable, all the way to the front of the forend iron. This is nor needed and is more a show of inletting but it does make for a tighter fit with less rocking then if this rib only extends for an inch or so. On my rifle it runs all the way mostly because I wanted to see if I could do it and get it right as I have been told it is a chalange. I did not find it too bad but it takes time and lots of fitting.


Judson
(.300 member)
25/10/05 08:06 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Once I had the forearm finally fitted and shaped it was time to sand it out. As with the butt I started with 120 grit and worked my way up to finner and finner paper. Once I am done with the 120 grit from here on I wet sand using mineral spirits as a wetting agent and most all sanding is done with all fittings in place. This will give you a perfect wood to metal fit and you do not end up with rounded edges or wood below the surface of the metal.
After I had finished with the wood it was time to get all the metal parts and the barrels ready for rust bluing. Most all doubles have to be rust blued, it is not just to give the metal that clasic look. Caustic hot blueing chemicals will eat lead based solder and if your rifle does not come out of the tank in pieces it may very soon end up that way.
To have rust bluing come out right it is best to sand all metal out to 320 or 400 grit. (Buffing wheels should never be used for polishing on a gun.) All file marks and scratches must be removed or they will show and like with the stock back the sand paper. Some people do not but here too I like to wet sand as the paper will last longer and not fill up as fast and also I think it gives a better finish. Just as all screws should be lined up North and South, ( so the slots run the length of the rifle), so should all sanding be done. The barrels should be sanded along their length along with any other pieces to be blued.
One other point about sanding along the length is that you will not have the sanding marks show as lines around the barrels. Come to think of it you really do not have much choice as to how you sand a double. All excess solder has to be removed from the seems as it will not blue and will look like hell. Here sand paper, dental picks and a sharp Exacto knofe all work well. One trick I have found is to use touch up blueing like 44/40 to check and see if any solder remains. Well enough for now, next I will try to explain how to protect the bores and also get the finish you want as far as what degree of shiny or satten


Judson
(.300 member)
28/10/05 08:34 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


Now for the rust blueing! Once all parts are to be blued are polished out to either 320 grit or 400 they have to be well cleaned as any oil left on the parts will spoil the blueing. For this I use lacquer thinner and once cleaned I do not handle the parts or barrels with out using clean gloves. Since rust blue is really rust turned into black iron oxide we do not want it to get into the bores as it will etch them and result in at best a dark bore. Some people recomend using wood plugs to plug the bore but since this rust blue involves boiling the barrels I do not like this idea. If a plug blows out you could get a face full of boiling water. In addition to that there is no way to check to ensure that no water has seeped into the bore other then removing the plugs.
What I have had very good results with is to paint the bores. Any good water proof spray paint will work for this. Spray from both ends and make sure the bores are completely covered. If some paint gets where you do not want it you can clean it off with lacquer thinner. Once the barrels are blued just soak them in lacquer thinner and scrub with a brush to remove the paint.
For the blueing it self I use Great American Rust Blue which Browenells carries. You swab on one coat and waite for a couple of hours and apply the next coat. Several hours later your parts will be red and motteled black with rust and look like HELL! This is fine and the next day boil the barrels and parts in clean water, card them off with clean 0000 steel wool. (Wash the steel wool in lacquer thinner as it is coated with oil so it will not rust)
Apply another coat of the rust blue solution and let the barrels and parts set in a damp area over night if you want a saten finish or no more then eight to ten hours for a shinier finish. The longer you waite between coats the duller the finish will be as the rust blue has more time to etch deeper into the metal.
Once you have the depth of blue you want, this will in most cases take five to ten cycles, (bioling for 15 min., carding boiling until hot then applying the next coat) it is time to boil the parts for around half an hour to stop the rusting action and then soak them for half an hour in water displacing oil. Once this is done wash everything again in lacquer thinner scrub out the paint in the bores and give every thing a light coat of linseed oil after buffing out with 0000 steel wool. If I have confused you please ask questions, the process though timely is really simple and you will not find a tuffer blueing with any other process.


MauserRifle
(.300 member)
28/10/05 11:35 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson

Thank you for taking the time to give all of us such a fantastic report on the building of a DR. The detail and photos are nothing short of fantastic.

Keep up the good work as I am sure all of us are as anxious to see this to the finish as you are to see the rifle finished.







Judson
(.300 member)
31/10/05 11:24 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


I am sorry but I do not have pictures of the finished rifle (minus the checkering, still waiting for more votes!)
I should have them either Monday or Tuesday and will post them as soon as I get them and a chance. Here in Maine deer season just started and we are rather busy with the "Ibroke it yast year and want it for tommorow"crowd, if you know what I mean!!! The rifle is finished other then checkering and it shoots great. I wanted to use it for deer but I was watching our field and tagged out with a six point yesterday using my wife's .366/358 Norma which around here is called a .366 Barbie. I am sorry, I have failed you people!


Marrakai
(.416 member)
31/10/05 02:25 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

In reply to:

I have failed you people



Damn right! We would much rather you tagged out with the ".450 Ken" than the ".366 Barbie"!!



Judson
(.300 member)
01/11/05 11:05 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I will try to redeam my self however I am having a few problems scanning in some pictures so I can only post one at present of the blued double. I should get everything taken care of and I will get more posted. You know, I asked my wife Barb if she would hunt with the .450 # 2 for her deer. She sort of gave me, you know one, of those looks that said you must be insane. Hell I thought it the least she could do since I tagged out with her rifle and cartridge.
When I was looking over the pictures of the building of the double I came across one that showed something I should mention. When cleaning up solder joints, and this goes for any gun, a course 60 degree checkering tool does a real nice job. I used this along the quater rib and along the ribs. Go gently or you will scratch the steel and break the teeth of the cutter and clean the teeth often. This little trick saves lots of time and will slightly under cut so no solder will show.
All right, here we go with the left side I hope!!! If you want I have views of the top and bottom with the skeleton grip cap. Next post, the reversible front sight with the fiber optic. Yes, I realise that is not traditional, but it is practical.


JPeterson
(.275 member)
01/11/05 11:11 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Great looking DR

mickey
(.416 member)
01/11/05 03:03 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson, very nice.

Judson
(.300 member)
04/11/05 10:52 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Sorry that I have been away for a bit but it is deer season up here and the shop gets rather crazy this time of the year!!!
This is the front sight I made for the double and I will probably use this style for future doubles unless the customer wants some thing different. I think the sight is rather trouble free, nothing to get bent or broken like a flip up ivory bead or lost like interchangably sight blades.
All you do to go to the low light sight is pull the checkered steel slide (The arrow is pointing to the slide.) to the rear and rotate the sight 180 dgrees and let the slide snap forward to lock it in place. Now you have fiber optic, yes I know but it workes!! In reality I have to wonder why a person would ever use a sight that did not show up as well as possible. The flip up ivory bead would have been good any time so why not have it as a fixed sight. The only down side to this was that most low light sights were rather large and covered up alot of the target at longer ranges but it does make you think a bit. So do the folding leaf express sights where the 300 yard leaf is the forward one. It would have made more sence to have the longest sight plane for the greatest distance don't you think?
Well any way here is the sight if these pictures come up.


This is the sight reversed, it has a red fiber optic, sorry it does not show up too well in the picture.


475Guy
(.400 member)
04/11/05 01:44 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson

I'm very glad to hear your project has progressed so well. You done good! Almost makes me want to get one custom made from you. Have you seen the new Ruger double barrel shotguns? Think this shotgun could be a project?


mehulkamdar
(.416 member)
04/11/05 01:53 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson,

That is one beautiful rifle!

Congratulations and best wishes for many memorable hunts with it.


Chasseur
(.375 member)
04/11/05 02:33 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson,

Great work and thanks for all the explanations!


mickey
(.416 member)
04/11/05 02:48 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

I love that front sight. Very creative.

Judson
(.300 member)
05/11/05 09:35 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


I have never really taken a good look at the Ruger double from the double rifle perspective so I can not really comment on it. However I have looked at the H&K Lion Classic with a double rifle in mind and it would woork very well and is around $1000 less in price.
My wife and I are trying to put togther a African hunt for 2007, I hope to use my 450 for Buff then. I had high hopes of takeing a deer with it this fall but things did not work out that way and Barbara will not shoot it, she is such a wimp, so field results will have to wait for next saeson or for Africa.


banzaibird
(.333 member)
05/11/05 09:45 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

The gold label lacks the proper lock ups for conversion to a double rifle.

BB


MauserRifle
(.300 member)
05/11/05 12:39 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson

Thanks again for all the posts and keeping us informed as to the progress on your DR project.

I also like your front sight, that was a great idea.

Have you decided on the style of checkering yet?



Judson
(.300 member)
06/11/05 11:13 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


Thank you for the info on the Ruger I have never really looked at their doubles. As for the checkering, I am still open to votes and since I can not decide I leave the pattern up to you people but it will probably be 22 lines per inch. I feel that 22 LPI gives good grip but is fine enough to still look good. Much finer then this and it looks great but you loose the grip and on this rifle I want both.


tinker
(.416 member)
06/11/05 11:42 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I'm just posting to the thread to re-enforce my favor (for this particular rifle) of the Fluer-de-Lys pattern.

I can't wait to see what kind of elegant take on that style Judson works on that lovely piece of wood.
Some of the nicest American custom rifles I've handled wore such checkering pattern styles, I think this rifle's appearance would take that kind of pattern well.


That and I can't wait to see and hear the tips and techniques he's going to detail during the transfer and bordering of a good Fluer-de-Lys checker job.




--Tinker


Judson
(.300 member)
10/11/05 10:39 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


The checkering is one of the last things done when building a rifle. I usually do not do the checkering untill I feel the stock is finished and will only need two more light wipe on coats of finish. These last two coats will seal the checkering but are not enough to fill the checkering.
All our checkering is done by hand and no electric tools are used. The reason for this is that with the electric checkering tools one is cutting deep enough on the first pass to really create a problem if there is a mistake. In addition to this the electric tools leave the checkering fuzzy and can not get out to the edges of the pattern. This means that you have to remove the fuz and clean up the edges and borders by hand any way. Good checkering will not hide the grain of the wood if it is clean cut. It might tone it down a bit but you will still see the figure clearly.
All checkering patterns weather fill in or point pattern are based on two scribed lines forming an X and the angles of the diamonds to be cut. Over here diamonds 3.5 times as long as they are wide is the most popular. Over seas longer slimmer diamonds seem to be more the style.
The two lines that form this X are called the master lines and create the diamonds of the pattern. You lay one edge of your spacing tool, which has two sets of teeth in the master line and very lightly mark out the next line. Then the cutter is moved over so that the teeth that were in the master line is now in the line you just cut. This process is repeated until the pattern is filled in in one direction. Then the other angle is cut thus forming thi diamonds. This initial lay out should barely cut through the finish and it will take many passes in order to finish a pattern. Cutting checkering right takes time, a good clean simple pattern around 20 to 30 hours if done right.


doublegunfan
(.275 member)
12/11/05 06:06 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson,

Contratulations on your project. As Marrakai pointed out in one of his comments, most of what has been written here is a collection of ideas and opinions, some good and some not so good, but few experiences like yours. It is good to see great positive results from risky projects like building a double.
Another friend told about a successfull deer hunt using his home made 12 bore rifle, and it was a pleasure to read about. His project gun is also another very good example of a great "home-made" gun.
Speaking for myself, I am on the works of building a double too, on a Beretta action. I hope I will have the gun ready for test fire in the next few weeks (progress is being slow...). I hope it will look so good as yours. Again, it is being great to know all the details of your project.

Fred


Judson
(.300 member)
12/11/05 11:16 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


I really thank you people for all your intrest in my work! There are a few things I should make clear to you.
First I am not saying you can not do what I have done but keep in mind building rifles is how I make my pay check.
Second, any time you make such drastic changes as building a double rifle on a shotgun action IT HAS TO BE RE PROOFED!!!! Your life and body parts, as well as others depends on this. When re-proofing a gun it should be in a shooting fixture not your hands and you should be in a safe place. I should have gone over this earlier but I left this, probably the most important part out!!!! I do not want you people getting hurt or worse!!!!
Most guns have the proof pressures stamped on the frame it is rather easy with a good loading book and a bit of basic math to figure out if your intended cartridge falle within these pressures. If it does not the best bet is to look else where for an action. As for the proof testing load I use the German methiod which is; Max load for the cartridge and up the bullet weight 10 percent. In the case of my 450 this was an 18 grain over load of IMR 4831 which even in a case the size of the 450#2 a substancial over load.
Please do not get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage any of you but please be careful and safe and do not take chances. In my line of work I see many short cuts which can and some times do lead to disaster, I do not want any of you to be part of that. Check your pressures, Proof test and use your brain and if you need help please contact me!!!!


Judson
(.300 member)
12/02/06 10:59 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Since I see a lot of intrest out there on building double rifles I thought I would bring this up to the front again and also post some more info and pictures in the next few days. I hope this is helpful to you!!!

BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
14/02/06 04:27 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I've heard both, that they are super strong frames and can take it, and that they won't handle the load due to the lock-ups. What is the real weakness? The locking lugs or the frame? Bonanza thinks the locking lugs are not the issue, but the strength of the frame.

What did Searcy do to the BSS to make it strong enough?

My own opinion is that the action has to be strong enough not to open under recoil and the frame strong enough not the crack at the 90-degree bend at the water-tables. This might be achieved if you use a low pressure round like a 450 #2. My understanding of the stresses applied to doubles is that the frame is put under tension stress. Considering this the 90-degree bend at the water-tables is a stress riser and this is the place that a failure will occur. If you can add more metal at the bend, the frame should take the load; you can also reduce the pressure by said above low-pressure cartridge and achieve the same thing. One thing that can be done inexpensively is to highly polish the frame and round-out the 90-degree bend, this will significantly reduce the stress rising effect of the 90 angle and also reduce induced surface stress. All milling marks need to be polished out, and sharps edges removed; stress analysis 101.

Now if you were to convert one to a double inline muzzleloader, the load is now spread across more of the frame because the lugs are now going to take some of the applied rearward force. Food for thought.

The idea here with our project is to be able to take any decent quality double shotgun and using our engineering experience (aeronautical) figure out a way to strengthen the actions to handle a full NE load at a reasonable cost. I think with proper engineering it will.

Colorado


banzaibird
(.333 member)
14/02/06 05:03 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Well the frames are kind of thin looking but seem to be heavy enough. Now keep in mind that I haven't built anything more powerful than the 9.3x74r on a shotgun frame. I've been thinking of a 450#2 on an exposed hammer frame I have but haven't progressed there yet.

Anyway as i said the fram is on the thinner side but i truly beleive that the problem is in the fact that the gun has 1 bite and it's not a very large bite at that. If you want I can get exact measurements of the action and the bite, it will just take me a day or so. I think if you are going to to try to take a production shotgun action and build a DR off of that action you would be better off going with the CZ (Huglu) actions. They have 2 underbites and a crossbolt and can be had from $500-$900 depending on the model you pick up.

In your other post you said you were getting Brown's book on building DR's on shottie actions. I'd say that will handle a lot of your questions, but I should say that there are allot that don't totally agree with his methods/ideas.

The first double I ever made was a 38-55 built on a Lefever Notro Express 20 ga action. Lets say that it wasn't successful with full power loads but is fun to shoot with black powder to this day. I guess what I'm trying to say that you can build a DR on just about any action if you are prepared to live with constraints for safety purposes. However you also have to remember not to forget the finished project and exactly how useful it will be to you for the time, work and money you have invested.

As I said above the CZ actions seems to make a great conversion. We built the one for my father-in-law for about $1,100. Works well but in the end it doesn't seem to have the "soul" that my 9.3x74r on the Merkel Model 8 frame has. That gun I built for about $1,500. All a matter of what you're looking for.

Now I mean no offense but the inline double mussloader has absolutely zero interest for me so I'll let you to speculate and test on that subject.

BB


banzaibird
(.333 member)
14/02/06 05:07 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Oh, forgot the BSS question. The Miroku 500/BSS has a significantly heavier frame and came with double underbite from the factory. I beleive that Searcy Added a 3rd bite to the frames he used. Though to be fair I've never seen one of these conversions in person.

BB


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
14/02/06 07:32 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I agree with you 100% on the CZ. They are the toughest cheap gun you can get for the conversion. How is the over all fit and finish of the gun? Do you build your barrels up from scratch? If so how? As in where do you get your ribs, barrels, blacks etc?

Right now we're welding shotti barrels then sleeving them using a method I designed. The method moves most of the mass aft between the hands so the gun feels quick, like a DR should.

Colorado


banzaibird
(.333 member)
14/02/06 09:36 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Colorado,

I hope Judson chimes in here as the begining of this thread shows a great build and much the way I do it now. Besides I want to see the rifle, I hope he desides on the Fluer checkering.

Anyway I had been using contors as they were from the blank makers such as Douglas or Shilen. However on the last 3 now I've taken to turning the blanks to my own set of dimensions. This allows me to thin out the end of the barrels alot and get the weight back between the hands. This really makes a difference in the handling of the DR. I've been using monoblocks that I build or sleeving barrels that have been cut. However I'm only willing to cut the barrels if they have a flaw, personal choice. In fact I wouldn't cut the barrels on the CZ that my father -in-law wanted to use because there was nothing wrong with them. After a short exchange on my reasoning he proceded to lay the barrel on the anvil and smash them flat with a hammer, thus they were flawed and I'd cut them off .

The fixtures and approach to how I regulate comes a lot from the procedures Brown lays out in his book. I'm fortunate as one of the guy's I've corrupted ..err.. convinced to help me is a retired tool and die maker who has a complete shop at his house. Thus if I'm unable to make what I need I simply tell/show him and he cranks one out in no time. Honestly the hardest part for me has been laying the ribs. The tinning and soldering the sight or barrel sleaves etc is pretty easy but laying the ribs has been quite a challenge at times for me. I've bought ribs from Numrichs but have been making ribs with many thanks to the machinist back-up I have who has made a fixture to make ribs. They only require minor filing where he changes cutters to get them to match barrel contours. On top of that the local gunsmiths have been really helpful when I need some technical help or have some issue that we can't figure out on our own.

The fit and finish of the CZ guns is quite good. Not just for the money but actually quite good. Now please don't think that it's in the same class as a Purdy, Westley Richards or a Holland & Holland etc. However it is far and away better than the basically equivalent priced Baikals. In fact I'd put it on par with most any prodiction gun that is priced at twice the amount of the CZ's.

Among our group now we've made 11 DR's. More than half of them I made. So I have an idea what has worked so far and what hasn't. The last couple have been pretty nice but people like Searcy have nothing to fear from me . I build them for one reason because currently that is the only way I can afford to have one or some. At 32 years old and a growing family I'm not exactly rolling in money as a FF/EMT. However my house is due to be paid off in about 4 years and then i plan on buying a decent double that began it's life as a double. However my builds have left me get into doubles a lot sooner than i would have. I built my first one almost a decade ago and the others since then have only cost me a total of about $6,400. Now I suppose if over that same time I would have simply saved I could have bought a used Chapius or Merkel but as it is I have 6 to play with till I can afford a nice old English gun.

Sorry for being longwinded.

BB


Judson
(.300 member)
15/02/06 11:55 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


Glad to see that there is still intrest in this thread!!
When I build a double I use different solders for differnt parts. For the quater rib I use silver braze which flows at around 1500 degrees if I remember right. For the wedges I use a lead based solder around 50-50 which flows at around 150 degrees higher then Brownells 44 silver bearing solder which is what I use for the ribs.
If you solder the ribs with the 44 and use an welding torch I have found that if you crank the O2 up high you can put enough heat into the rib and barrel to get a good joint but not mealt the higher temp lead alloy solder. I chase my rib joints with a soaking wet paper towel and once you get it down you will not get a "cold joint".
By using several different tempriture solders you have a bit of lee way as far as softening up the other joints. It takes a bit of time to get the feel for this but for me it works great.


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
16/02/06 01:45 AM
500NE

93 Grains RL 15.

Judson
(.300 member)
19/02/06 12:05 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

I have another French double action on the way to me. This one is a big 12 gauge with junk barrels, (Crushed by the Muzzel) it has double under lugs with 3 bites and a third hidden fastener. When it arrives I will check the proof marks but it looks like this one will become either a .470 NE, .475 #2 NE or a 500 NE. Which way would you go and why?

BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
20/02/06 05:01 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I just don't know.

BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
20/02/06 05:09 AM
9.3x74R

good choice in a DR?

Judson
(.300 member)
20/02/06 12:45 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Thank you for your input! The .475 I am considering is the .475 # 2 NE which is basically the .450 # 2 NE necked up. It runs about the same pressure as the 450 # 2 NE but has a .483 diameter bullet and as with many of the NE cartridges the same performance. I have a customer that would like the .475 mainly because he likes the huge 3.5 inch case and the total length of 4.5 inches. He thinks that is rather impressive and since he is a hand loader this is not a problem. Since I do not have any experiance with shooting game with these cartridges how do they stack up against the .458 Winchester? I know its reputation and I hope these cartridges do better, I know the .500 does and also the .470. I will be using my .450 # 2 NE on my third trip to Africa in 2007 but not on dangerous game so I value your input. Thanks again!

Marrakai
(.416 member)
20/02/06 02:53 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Just tossed these exact same thoughts up on your other thread, Judson. Long-time posters will already know my views on the .577 Light Nitro too! Love that cartridge!

vigillinus
(.300 member)
23/02/06 06:53 PM
Re: Building a double rifle


at the Albany NY gun show a few weeks ago a gent had a .22LR double that he had built. Quite neat. Got his name etc. but have misplaced it. He will probably be at the next show in a few months.


NE450No2
(.375 member)
24/02/06 07:44 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

The 450 No2 and the 475 No2 are not the same cases.
The 475 No2 has a bigger base and a larger diameter rim.

Before I bought my double rifles I thought of all the Nitro Express rounds I would like the 450 No2 the best.

First the 458 Bore, the choice in bullet selection alone is reason enough to get any variety of 450 Nitro.

The No2 case has a thick strong rim. It has a definate neck, which is a little easier to load then a normal straight sided case.
Also since the case body is larger that the bullet diameter it is very easy when reloading the rifle, as the bullet is much smaller than the rear diameter of the chamber, so you are inserting the .458 bullet into a .56 diameter hole.
After nine years of shooting my 450 No2 on the deer lease, and one trip to Africa [3 elephants and 2 buff], I feel I made the right choice, for me anyway.

I also have a 450/400 3 1/4" and like it very much.
In reality all of the Nitro Express cartridges will get the job done, I just like the 458 Bore.

I shoot quite a few 350 grain Hornady RN bullets on deer and pigs.


bonanza
(.400 member)
24/02/06 08:31 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Tony,

You have made me feel that much better about my Jeffrey! I have a bunch of 350, 400 and 500 .458 bullets to monkey with. However, I'll say that the 500/450 is also a great cartridge for the same reasons.


bonanza
(.400 member)
24/02/06 08:48 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Marrakai,

Colorado and I really want to build the .577 light nitro, but the chamber is a bit thin is we build it on a sleeved 12 gauge.


banzaibird
(.333 member)
24/02/06 09:43 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Look for a 10 gauge Belgian Centaur. Usually can be had for about $400-$600 and actually has double underbite, crossbolt and a bite behind the crossbolt.

I have one sitting around that I was thinking of for a 577 down the road.

BB


banzaibird
(.333 member)
24/02/06 09:59 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Whoops, "Centaure" is the correct spelling.

BB


banzaibird
(.333 member)
24/02/06 11:24 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Here is the gun I'm talkign about. I think that this guy is asking a bit much but that's just my opinion.

Centaure and Gunbroker

BB


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
24/02/06 03:00 PM
Hollis 500/450

Where can I get on of them?


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
24/02/06 03:04 PM
577

Where to find one.

Marrakai
(.416 member)
24/02/06 03:44 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

In reply to:

the chamber is a bit thin as we build it on a sleeved 12 gauge



Well there are 12-bores and there are 12-bores! My .577 x 2 3/4 Light Nitro is built on a sleeved 12-bore shotgun too. No problems whatsoever with chamber-wall thickness.

I should add that the Greener 'Empire' is a massive shotgun with a long action-bar. The Brits distinguished fairly well between 'game-guns' and their 'pigeon-guns' or 'fowlers'. The latter two are usually heavily built, long-chambered, and proved for heavier loads. Many early pigeon-guns even had 3-inch chambers. This distinction is not always clear-cut in Continental or American guns.

Furthermore, a 12-bore Greener 'Empire' is about 3mm wider across the breech-face than the 10-bore Zabala! True! Might pay to put the calipers across that Centaure before making a decision, though the one on GB sure looks wider! I'll measure my Greener's chamber-wall thickness on the weekend and report back. I have three Empires BTW, two of which are still 12-bore shotguns!


banzaibird
(.333 member)
24/02/06 04:09 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Marrakai,

These guns are simply enormous. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll dig mine out of the safe and measure it. I'm guessing it has to be right around 3" across the face.

The actions aren't much to look at but with some sculpting of the fences and the reinforcement it will look better. Though it will never be an elegant gun, it will be one stout shooter. I bought mine at a local shop for $350 it had been there for years. No one wanted to lug it around. Anyway it is also a pretty heavy proof for the gun. I figured one day I might go completely insane and build a 577 or larger on it .

BB

P.S.- Even though I got mine for $350 I’d gladly give you $795 (the cost of the linked Centaure) for your Greener’s . I won’t even ask for an inspection period .


tinker
(.416 member)
24/02/06 04:28 PM
Long shotgun actions

Speaking of shotgun actions which are set up for long cartridges...

I have this coming in the mail.
It should be here some time next week.




It's said to be the ass end of an eight bore Coggie.
The lockwork and action parts are all supposed to be good and the wood sound.
We'll just see.

There are also a pair of Mossberg 3-1/2" magnum 12b slug rifle blanks coming -- profiled, chambered, and threaded but not cut and fitted for the Mossberg action, so no mag tube hanger or reciever extention or extractor cut... just the profiled and chambered barrel blanks.

Sickness.
It's all just so bad and wrong...



--Tinker


banzaibird
(.333 member)
24/02/06 05:10 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Where did you find that? I'd be awful tempted to do this to it Jeffrey

It looks like it would be about the right size to.

BB


Marrakai
(.416 member)
24/02/06 09:35 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Hee Hee, I'd just have to make an 8-bore double rifle out of it!

tinker
(.416 member)
25/02/06 01:52 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

That Jeffrey is just luscious.

We'll just say a little bird tipped me off to the C&H.
I really didn't have to pay anything for it either too, the whole deal all somehow came through to me via a somewhat sideways trade-bait shift (gotta love it when you wake up to all the right things coming and going around at the same -right time- for this kind of deal) and at the end of the day on the transaction I'll have some very distracting projects off the bench, replaced by one very distracting project.

I don't think eight bore rifle would be a very appropriate game plan for this action too. Judging from my conversations with the guy who sent it along to me and the photos, it's definitely a shotgun and doesn't seem to be a very heavy one for an eight bore. The barrel blanks, on the other hand, are about as tough a pair of twelve bore barrels I'm going to be able to get my hands on, and they should be able to handle whatever I can stuff into three and a half inches of twelve bore brass.


We'll just see.


--Tinker


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
25/02/06 03:48 AM
470 NE Loads

THinking about one.

deant
(.224 member)
25/02/06 04:45 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

I picked up a nice W J jeffry double barrel 12gauge shotgun cheap! Was going to make it into a double rifle found out it is worth about 4 times what I paid for it. Maybe someday Ill be able to make an entire set of barrels for it. so I dont have to cut up the originals.
Dean


banzaibird
(.333 member)
25/02/06 09:53 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Deant,

I'm all for conversion of some shotguns to DR's if that's what you like. However I persoanlly would be forced to track you down and smack you in the head if you cut up a perfectly fine pair of WJ Jeffrey barrels .

Enjoy it for what it is a fine shotgun that you should be proud of. As you said perhaps later you can make or get made a set of barrels.

I say that one because there really aren't that many out there that we should be cutting up these fine old examples of shotguns. Also when you cut them you have to worry about strength not only whether they are chopper lump or shoe lump, dovetailed etc but also in the metalurgy with the increased pressure.

As I said please don't cut up perfectly fine barrels for that old classic.

Tinker,

I came accross that Jeffrey when I was surfing the web drolling over all the fine doubles. There is something about it that makes me want to go to the bank and get a loan .

BB

BB


tinker
(.416 member)
25/02/06 10:28 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

No kidding...

Really, it just looks so nice.
And the price doesn't seem so bad, a loan of that size wouldn't be much of a burden.

The 8b ass-end I have coming looks to be just the thing for an ass whacking fun gun with a bit of soul. Milling, filing, and fitting the monoblock for this one will be fun, it'll keep me off the streets and outta trouble for a little while at least.
I wonder if the original barrels for this gun will ever come my way. Evidently the barrels and action were seperated quite a long time ago back in the UK, something about a tavern prank or some such tomfoolery.
I'm not counting on it.


--Tinker


deant
(.224 member)
26/02/06 01:28 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

BB
When I bought her online I thought it was a cheap copy not a real Jeffery. When I got it I was shocked and no way could I cut her up. I might shoot her in a few rounds of cowboy action shooting this summer But with the utmost care I hope someday my machining skills will be up to the tasks of making a set of new barrels for it.
Last summer there was an older guy at a cowboy shoot I noticed his shotgun and checked it out closer It was a fully engraved with the initial plate and all the works tolley?? if I remember right? it was twice as nice as my Jeffery! He said he got it for almost nothing at a garage sale. I almost cried when I saw he had cut the barrels off and given it a nice glossy refinish . I hope he is around again this year might be able to rescue that one for a project.
Deant


Judson
(.300 member)
03/03/06 10:54 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions


I have finally started checkering my rifle!!! My wife Barbara is taking pictures of it as work progresses.
I am doing a fill in pattern and it is a Fleur di lis pattern, I will try to keep you up to date but I have to get some film developed befor you get any pictures, I should get a digital camera!


tinker
(.416 member)
03/03/06 12:29 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Judson-

That's great!
I can't wait to see the style and pattern you work out for your rifle.
I'll stay tuned.


Marrakai-

I've gotten the Coggie and it's really in much better shape than I'd thought.
Very nice, actually. I'm still waiting on the arrival of the 12b 3-1/2" magnum barrels. In the meantime I've been reading up on the eight bore rifle.
I may well end up making a set of eight bore barrels for it too, I just need to first talk to some barrel makers here in the states. There was a man noted in a thread months ago on the topic of reboring double rifles, I'd contacted him and discussed the possibility of him making me a set of sixteen bore barrels for a hotrod long brass nitro 16b roundball gun I want to make.
I should track his info down and see if he's interested in doing eight bore barrels.
Ten drams of black powder amd small for eight bore standard roundball would be on the light end of the eight bore loads, and lots of fun to shoot without hammering me or the action to death.

Someone had noted in the double rifle measurements thread that they have a ten bore double rifle. I should contact them and see how thier action measures up against this C&H.
Although next to my Tolley it seems like a giant, I'm wondering how much bigger the 8b SxS rifle actions were (if at all) than 8b SxS shotgun actions.
I've seen 8b double rifles without any kind of third bite and really don't want to get into any kind of trouble as far as action strength goes...
A really big bore black powder roundball SxS rifle would be such a hoot though!
I'll hold you accountable if I end up folding to the absolutely impractical lure of building such a large bore rifle out of this thing.
That and I'll let you shoot it!


--Tinker


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
04/03/06 11:24 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

No sure about that yet. I'll check.


Marrakai
(.416 member)
04/03/06 10:55 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

colorado:
In reply to:

are your barrels scratch build or lined



Not quite sure what that means, but my Greener has been sleeved with .577 rifle barrels in the traditional sense, meaning the shotgun barrels were lopped ahead of the flats, reamed out, and maybe threaded (not sure). The .577 barrels had a ferrule turned on the breech end (and maybe threaded) to fit into the 'monobloc'.

Personally I don't really mind whether they were threaded or simply tinned into the monobloc, the gun was proved so all is well. I could always phone Rolph B_ and ask him, if I ever start to lose sleep over it!

The strikers are not bushed, however the Greener has relatively fine firing-pins so the risk is small. It would be better had it been bushed of course, but no worries so far. I have witnessed an FN shotgun pierce a primer, and the blow-back through the firing-pin hole blew the side of the stock-head off. The errant chunk of walnut landed about 30 yds away! A friend has a .400 NE A&N double that has suffered the same fate at some point in its past, the sliver simply reattached with epoxy-resin awaiting the inevitable restock.


BTW bonanza, the chamber-wall thickness on my Greener .577 is 0.260 inch at the breech-face.


tinker
(.416 member)
05/03/06 03:13 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Wooo golly!

Quarter inch thick chamber walls. That's the stuff successful hot proofs are made of.

About venting as a percaution for the possible blown primer...
In a conversation with Geoffroy Gourmet some time last year we'd been discussing setting up an R series Darne for hot bore rifle loads. The action we were talking about didn't have the typical gas seal discs on the breech face like the V series guns have, and he noted that a great way to vent the primers was to take a graver and cut a circle around the firing pin holes on the breech face, and from those circles make a cut just as deep (.020" or so) from the edge of the circles running down the breech face to just about where the breech face meets the action flats. The circle should be just about the same diameter as the primer. This way, the little groove doesn't allow the primer to deform into it during firing, but allows a path of least resistence for blowby gas out to the atsmophere -- at pretty much the same spot gas valves would blow via vented pin bushings, without damage to the action. He noted that this was a typical method of venting guns that don't have pin bushings. Since then I've had my eyes out for such detail and have seen a few Liege and Ferlach guns with this feature, some of them had a groove cut connecting the circles between the two firing pin locations effectively giving twice the venting volume to each firing pin.
Pretty simple detail, takes much less time to perform on the gun, and it'll do well to work along with vented striker bushings if that ends up happening in the future of the gun as well.

Looks like this


Marrakai, can you measure the diameter of those firing pins for me and guesstimate the radius in inches on the firing pin tips please?


--Tinker



BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
05/03/06 04:29 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Interesting.

Judson
(.300 member)
05/03/06 12:03 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions


In reality those gas groves do very little in the event of a blown primer or case seperation. The idea is good but in practice the groves too small and shallow. If they were deep enough and located properly then they might help some but would in them selves cause problems with un suported sections of the case and primer. In the pictures it lookes like a ring around the primmer. If the firing pin punches through the primmer then the gas is vented into the hole surounding the firing pin and not to the vent ring around the primer. If the vent ring had a line cut to the center of the firing pin hole this would leave the primer unsuported in this area and would allow the primer to flow back into this cut causing the rifle to be hard opening at best and allowing the primmer to blow along this line at worst. The grove from the ring around the primmer to the out side of the breach is far too narrow and shallow to allow the volume of gas fron a blown case to escape quickly. These features may help some but not enough!!! The hole idea is not to blow primers or cases and with modern components it one sticks to the proper loadings this is not a problem. Think about it, with modern rifles firing either good, sane hand loads or factory ammo, when was the last time you saw a blown primmer? Also with the pressures double rifles are built to take using magnum primmers drastically reduces this problem.
Most of these problems date back to the cordite days and though worth keeping in mind are not much of a problem today.


Marrakai
(.416 member)
05/03/06 12:50 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Judson:
You are quite correct about the vented breech-face NOT catering for a blown primer. They were developed to prevent gas-cutting of the breech-face in the event of a leaking primer. I can look it up in Crudgington & Baker if anyone is interested, but the several variations of the vented breech-face are covered under a Scott patent I believe.

As previously stated, the problem with many shotguns is that the firing-pins or strikers are quite large compared with bolt-guns and nitro double rifles, so a large portion of the centre of the primer is unsupported at the moment of ignition: not a problem with low-pressure shotshells. However at NE pressures, this may cause the primer to flow back into the firing-pin hole, and rupture when the elastic limit is reached. The full pressure of firing is then funnelled straight back into the action and stock-head, with potentially disasterous results.

The best way to guard against this, other than bushing the strikers or firing-pins, is to choose actions for conversion which have small-diameter firing-pins and minimum gap around the pins in the breech-face. Judson, we could probably come up with some guidance or 'rule of thumb' for this. I'll measure my Greener as Tinker suggests, and a few nitro doubles and old shotguns, what are your thoughts on the actual maximum recommended size?


500Nitro
(.450 member)
05/03/06 12:53 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions


W&C Scott used to have the circle and line out to the side
to get rid of the hot gasses.

I agree, with odern components and safe loads, I do not think
it will be a problem.

500 Nitro


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
05/03/06 02:19 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Low pressure is better.

Marrakai
(.416 member)
05/03/06 05:50 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Colorado:
Regarding over-size firing-pins, the primer is not pierced by the firing-pin, but is likely to blow out into the firing-pin hole, pushing the pin back in the process, and venting into the action and stock-head. In that case the primer ruptures because it is largely unsupported, having already been stretched and weakened by the pin-strike. It is not pierced!

This doesn't happen when firing shotshells in guns with oversize firing-pins as the pressure is relatively low. Chambering a full nitro rifle cartridge is going to increase the pressure by 3 to 8 times, depending on the cartridge! That primer needs to be very well supported indeed! I'm repeating my earlier post I know, apologies, but apparently it's necessary.

In the case of the FN shotgun mentioned earlier, it was a pierced primer due to a damaged firing-pin. I related that account simply to draw attention to the potentially disasterous effects of high-pressure gas getting into the firing-pin holes. Bushed strikers will prevent this happening regardless of the cause.


Marrakai
(.416 member)
05/03/06 09:37 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

OK guys, here's a pictorial example of what I'm talking about.

Gun on the left is my Greener .577 conversion, with firing-pin holes measuring ~95 thou (2.4mm) in diameter. Gun on the right is a Birmingham BP-proved shotgun with firing-pin holes measuring ~150 thou (almost 4mm dia.). No way should anyone convert an action like that without bushing the strikers!




While I'm posting photos, your earlier request for pics of the Greener's breech with and without loaded cartridges was not forgotten, colorado.




Actually I cheated a bit here The BP action with the over-size firing-pin holes is in fact a hammer-gun, so the strikers are bushed anyway, from the rear. Nevertheless, ruptured primers would be a strong possibility with full nitro loads IMHO.


banzaibird
(.333 member)
06/03/06 01:08 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Wow, look how thin the wall on the barrel is. It looks as though the sleeve is thicker than what remains of the barrel. I know it must be safe because it was reproofed and your shooting it regularly but I don't think I'll try anything that close anytime soon .

I know I've read your story on it but what is the weight again? Also does it have anything to reduce recoil?

BB


doublegunfan
(.275 member)
06/03/06 01:37 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

This thread could almost be renamed to "Best Practices for building a Double Rifle, or converting a shotgun frame to a Double Rifle".

So far we covered things like sleeving barrels, calibers, regulation, frame selection, wood work, and now safety precautions. I like that.

My own Beretta also has these vents on the face. Its strikers are not very thin, but I reworked them, because they were protuding too much from the face (almost 1,5mm). This way, I have had no problems with the strikers perforating the primers or jamming the gun shut.

One question for all: all accidents I have seen with primers were either caused by faulty firing pins (too long or too thin) or by very high pressures in hot handloads. If we consider that the modern Large Rifle primers are built to withstand pressures much higher than those of normal DR calibers, is it really a necessity to bush the strikers?


Fred


tinker
(.416 member)
06/03/06 03:22 AM
Striker bushings, questions of safety...

I think we can look at vented and bushed strikers as a couple more examples of cheap insurance, kind of like quick detatch scope mounts and auto ejectors.
Essentially a bunch of stuff that comes along for the ride, but if the bullshit hits the fan they come to the rescue for whatever measure of buffer they offer.

I think it also stands to reason that anyone who's looking at an action with that long and willful *come hither you brass sucking tramp* leer of want for a conversion into double rifle service should make double damn sure to put the strikers and thier smooth little puckerholes on the checklist -- and like everything else, to check them twice.



--Tinker


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
06/03/06 04:34 AM
465NE

Are there very many out there?

Marrakai
(.416 member)
06/03/06 07:32 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

banzaibird:
In reply to:

Wow, look how thin the wall on the barrel is



You're kidding, right?

It doesn't matter how thin the ferrule is, so long as it has sufficient thickness at the front of the monobloc, and that is dictated by the taper on the original shotgun-barrels. Remember that the primary receptacle is a thin brass case, which is supported by the chamber wall. ("Wow, look how thin the wall on the case is..."). The Greener conversion has ended up with better than 1/4-inch chamber walls at the breech all-up. Personally I reckon that's plenty for the safe discharge of an 8-ton cartridge.

The finished weight of the gun is 10 1/2 lbs. Nothing else to reduce recoil except time-honoured British design (!) ...modified a bit! It's very comfortable to shoot.



banzaibird
(.333 member)
07/03/06 12:59 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

I didn't mean anything by the thin comment other than I have a long way to go and a lot to learn before I'd attempt anything like that. I do understand exactly what you are saying about the ferrel thickness but there is still hoop stress to that area. Not nearly as much where the chamber ends but still some pressure. It was made because I was truly surprised at how thin they left it not in anyway meant to be a derogatory comment. I'm still trying to come to grips with the whole profile of the barrels. It differs so much from bolt actions. There is generally so much less barrel weight in the DR profiles.

Sorry if I offended you that wasn't my intention. I also didn't mean my comments as derogatory to the make of the firearm. To me that is amazingly thin. Still is, but as I said in my ealier post it is obviously safe.

BB


doublegunfan
(.275 member)
07/03/06 01:23 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

One thing that I considered regarding the bushed pins is that it seems, to me at least, to be something very complex and not very easy to change from an integral striker to a bushed pin. The geometry of the pins in relationship to the original strikers have to be considered. Any mistake and your action is gone.

The diameter of the vent in a double rifle with bushed pins are so small when compared to the diameter of vent holes in a 98 Mauser bolt, for example. Will those small channels be enough to divert hot gases?

Anyway, I have to aggree with Colorado. For me, it seems a better approach to keep your loads on a safe margin and avoid the overpressure by all means, than try to discover the limits of strength and safety of your gun action .

Fred


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
07/03/06 05:12 AM
Hollis 500/450

Jones underlevers, opinions?

Judson
(.300 member)
07/03/06 09:22 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

This thread really has taken on a life of it's own!!! I never thought it would create so much intrest when I started it. As for blown primers and such, for the most part it is a thing of the past with modern components and the pressures involved in double rifles. Modern large rifle and large rifle magnum primers are designed to take over well over 70,000 psi. This is far beyond any sane loading and the only cartridges loaded this hot are some of the Lazeroni stuff. The firing pin diameter should be around .074" plus or minus .004" and protrusion no more then.064" pluss or minus .002" for a modern high intensity cartridge. so with a double we have a little bit more leway as to diameter but not much. As important if not more so then diameter is how well the pin fits the hole in the face. Thi firing pins should be as close fitting as possably as this in it self limits the chances for flow back of the primer and blown primers.
By the way nice pictures guys and thanks for your input and the checkering on my .450 # 2 N.E. is about half done and I will have pictures soon.


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
07/03/06 11:25 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Wish I had one!



Marrakai
(.416 member)
07/03/06 10:06 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

colorado:
I wasn't particularly offended by your post, didn't mean to give that impression, just a little perplexed by your surprise at the ferrule thickness, you having built one and all. When chambering for the straight-wall American .45s or .50s you can retain plenty of meat around the chamber, but the much larger .577 chamber must result in thinner ferrule walls. Simple geometry.

I'm slowly working my way 'round to building another one myself too, on one of my Greeners using the pair of Shaw rifled 12-bore barrels I've had sitting in the back of the cupboard for several years. Unfortunately I've convinced myself that I need to build a new monobloc from scratch, in order to get an extra couple of pounds weight 'between the hands' while keeping the muzzles shotgun-trim, so it will be no simple task.



Unfortunately I keep blowing my budget on vintage pommie doubles in the meantime!


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
08/03/06 03:31 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Great gun I love it!

banzaibird
(.333 member)
08/03/06 03:54 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Hey, I wasn't dissing anybody. I was however surprised at how thin it was.

It just seemed that you were offended by the way it read. That's the problem with this type of forum beause I didn't mean it that way at all.

As I said earlier the barrel profile is something indeed that is quite different than anything else. This is an area I'm still working hard on getting right. I only have had the oppurtunity to shoot 2 professionaly made DR's. One is an old BPE and isn't nearly as lively as the much later manufactured 303.

Thus my expeirence is very limited other than the ones that myself and a couple other of guy's have built. About 15 in all currently. However some of them are pretty crude. I haven't refined things far enough that I'd feel comfortable doing the 577 currently. Though I deffinately want to in the future. I've been playing with an action design now for a few months. It is working but not quite the way I want to yet. However when i get everything working the way I want I'll be able to get it programed into the CNC mill then I can build DR's in calibers for myself as quickly as I can afford barrels and raw 4140 CM.

Anyway thanks again and as I said I wasn't trying to offend anyone.

Bill


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
08/03/06 05:24 AM
475NE

Searcy make these?

Daryl_S
(.600 member)
08/03/06 05:54 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

.155" is .030" over 1/8"(.125") and - .095" less than 1/4" or am I missing something here. .032" difference is closer to 1/32", not 1/8", which is actually 0.125". Quarter inch is .250".
: Even at these measurements, I am sure they are plenty strong enough for moderate loads.
: The muzzles, of course, can be very thin as the pressure at that point is very low with normal loads. I've seen in print that even the quite slow burning IMR 4831 developes it's gross(max) pressure at 13" from the breech in rifle barrels. Faster powders develope their max pressurs much closer to the breech, hense normal contours are safe.


bonanza
(.400 member)
08/03/06 06:07 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Check out this baby!

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun_inventory/inventory/kansas_city/english_sg/419519_greener_kc.jsp


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
08/03/06 10:24 AM
Merkel 470

Any good?

Grizzly
(.333 member)
08/03/06 10:39 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

This thread has been a real education. It gives some unique perspective on the kind of work that goes into a quality double, and why they cost so much.

As for myself, my mechanical skills would have me going out and buying two singe shots, lining them up side by side and moving one slightly back, trimming the barrel on the forward trigger rifle, and using copius amounts of duct tape.



Marrakai
(.416 member)
08/03/06 02:59 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

colorado & BB:
Apologies for the confusion, guys. ...actually I blame the grog!

I didn't follow the maths in detail on your previous posts, but it seems you may have overlooked or forgotten about boring or reaming out the monobloc prior to fitting the new barrels. Only the barest minimum existing wall-thickness is retained at the front of the monobloc, although a little more meat is needed if they are to be threaded-in of course. At the very least, the rim-recess of the existing 12-bore chamber has to be removed. If you factor this in, you should get a little better than 3/64-inch!

Holy Cow! Can't believe the asking price of 'ordinary' Greener shotties over there! That's $3,800 in our money, and a scruffy example to boot! ...and what are those brass hardware-store screws doing through both sides of the stock head? Sheesh!

At that rate, I could turn a profit of AU$6,750 on the last two I acquired!!


tinker
(.416 member)
08/03/06 03:55 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Marrakai-

First up for discussion is the grog.
Share.
We'll all email you our shipping addresses so we can join you on the mead.
I'll take a flat of quart jars to start.


Next for comment is the retailer linked to that Empire Grade.
They're somewhat notorious for more-than-occasional *very high* prices on less than stellar pieces.
Sometimes they have a great deal on something to be had too, but more than not it's the former.


About that pair of twelve bore tubes, what would those cost today in USD?



--Tinker


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
08/03/06 07:19 PM
500NE

Loads?

Marrakai
(.416 member)
08/03/06 09:56 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

tinker:
In reply to:

what would those ..twelve bore tubes.. cost today in USD?



According to the E.R.Shaw webpage, they currently retail at US$105 ea. I paid about $95 at the time. Not everybody likes Shaw barrels BTW, however these look fine to me. I haven't put a tool on them yet, so can't really comment. Hope they're OK! I'm sure there would be other manufacturers pricing competitively on your side of the pond.

Also the twist-rate is a little slick for 12-bore slugs, around 1:28 IIR, so probably designed for sabots. I'll be shooting 750gr Fosbery-style slugs for starters, if I ever work my way clear to getting this project underway!


Daryl_S
(.600 member)
09/03/06 07:24 AM
Re: Long shotgun actions

I would think 1 in 60" would be a better bet for full sized slugs in a 12 bore, and maybe .006" deep.

Judson
(.300 member)
09/03/06 12:12 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions



For those of you who have not seen it this is the .450 # 2 Nitro Express that I built on a French 16 gauge action. It was a lot of fun to regulate even though lots of people told me it would drive me crazy. At present the rifle is shooting about 1.25" at 50 yards for a composit group which should put it about right on at 100 yards but I have not shot 100 yards due to the winter very much. I am now checkering the stock which is of South African Black Thorn which I picked up on my wifes and my first trip. The stock blank was given to me by a South African custom rifle builder I spent some time with.


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
09/03/06 06:06 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

What have you proofed the gun to? Do you run full nitro loads through it? Does it have a Greener crossbolt? What is the frame measurements...as in across the water tables, standing breech, length from breech to pin etc..

Are you doing any kind of wear or stress analysis on the frame?


Judson
(.300 member)
14/03/06 01:28 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

On my present rifle, the one pictured I fired several proof loads and checked the tolerances after every shot. Now I am checking measurements after every shooting session, nothing has changed so far, I will keep you informed.
The new french action I am giong to use is large and the barrels are of the chopper lump design. It has four bites, three on the under lugs and a fourth as a hidden third fastner. The firing pins are rather small in diameter though I think I may want to cut them back a bit. I will post pictures as soon as I can and give the dementions of the new action in the next few days. As for my .450 you will have to waite a bit for those dementions as it is in the checkering cradle at this time and I can only work on it in my free time so it will be a while befor I cane post the measurements you guys asked for.


oupa
(.300 member)
14/03/06 02:21 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Guy's I'm a "student" of this mystical practice of converting shotguns to rifles but soak up every bit of info on the subject I can... so please be kind.

Quote "...Regarding over-size firing-pins, the primer is not pierced by the firing-pin, but is likely to blow out into the firing-pin hole, pushing the pin back in the process..."

PLEASE correct me if my assumptions are incorrect but turning new, longer strikers that would just barley retract beyond the surface of the breech face - making up the difference in over-all length on the other end of the striker - seems to answer this concern, does it not? This is of course in the case of bushed strikers. Turning new pins would be so easy, especially if it would provide such insurance.


4seventy
(Sponsor)
14/03/06 05:23 PM
Re: Long shotgun actions

Oupa,
Sadly it is not that simple.
In order for these lengthened pins to work they would have to perfectly fill the striker hole.
This means that they would have to be flush with the nipple which also means they would have to have flat tips with sharp corners and this in itself is bad news regarding the possability of piercing the cup as well as other issues.
If a spherical tip was used the cup metal could still flow into the outer part of the nipple drilling.
Reducing the diameter of the strikers is no big deal on guns with bushed pins.
By the way, cartridges developing low pressures like many of the old Nitro Express rounds, often still work well with larger diameter strikers.
The problem concerning flow back of cup metal into the striker hole is usually associated with higher pressures like those developed by the 375 mag and others.


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
15/03/06 03:57 AM
Hollis 500/450

Loads?

Daryl_S
(.600 member)
15/03/06 05:08 AM
Re: 50-90 Regulation load and update

A 525gr. 50 cal. flat nosed slug at 1,750fps is quite a powerful load. It will certainly do for any & all game in North America and most in Africa and India for that matter. It exceeds any loadings used in the .500 BPE and comes close in bullet weight and velocity for the .577BPE, lacking only bulet diameter which does make a difference. FPE doesn't show this, of course.

Judson
(.300 member)
15/03/06 11:02 AM
Re: 50-90 Regulation load and update

The first French action I used is a Fusal Robust 16 ga it is very tight and no measurements have changed after being re-proofed and 100 pluss rounds of standard loads. The action I just recieved is a 12 ga Verney Carron and has three bites on the double under lugs and a hidden fastener. It also has side clips and firing pins which measure .82" so it has promise and will probably end up a .470 Nitro, I will try to post a few pictures of the gun.

Judson
(.300 member)
15/03/06 11:43 AM
Re: 50-90 Regulation load and update


I have recieved several Emails and lots of questions about regulating double rifles so lets talk about that a bit. First, if any of you know a scientific way to regulate a double Please, Please speek up now!!!! The problem with regulating a double,(side by side) is that the recoil starts as soon as the bullet starts moveing. Since the barrels are to both the left and right of the center line of the rifle we end up with both right or left rotational action and upward movement of the barrels. To simplify this a bit, the left barrel will move up and to the left and the right battel will rotate up and to the right. This is why double rifles can not be regulated from a machine rest, they have to be held and shot. For comfort this is best done from a standing bench.
Some thing else I have run into is that in jeneral a double rifle will shoot better for one person then another as far as shot seperation. When looking into this a bit I have come to the conclusion that how one holds these intriging things also changes the picture. I am not talking about flinching here but body size, grip and how stiff a person is when shooting.
We have to remember that with a bolt rifle we deal with upward and rear ward movement and for the most part that is it so hold, build and stance of the shooter is far less important. Give us yout thoughts on this and next post I will try to get into the regulating process. I am not an expert but I am more then willing to share what I have learned so please share your knowledge so that all of us can learn stuff which is new to us.


tinker
(.416 member)
15/03/06 12:15 PM
This new action...

Your VC is about as good an action as you're going to find anywhere.
Seems like you found something nice to work with there.
Are you going to monoblock it?
If so, what happened to the barrels?


Great point on regulation and barrel activity when firing.
In all the conversations I've heard or read on the subject, this is the first time I've heard someone speak up to the 'windup' of the double rifle and as with the side by side, how that affects where the barrels point.
That might be one of the many reasons that make the double rifle an easier rifle to shoot than a single barreled bolt gun -- that some of the recoil energy is being temporarily stored via the work of twisting the barrel pair up then springing back...


--Tinker


Judson
(.300 member)
16/03/06 11:59 AM
Re: This new action...


The Verney Carron action I posted had no stoch, forearm or trigger guard when I got it. The bores of the barrels are like a mirror, however the dents and flats from being run over make me think that it would not pattern well as a shot gun. However the $100 price tag was too good to pass up. The guard and forearm Iron I will have to make as I doubt I can find replacements. I will use the remains of the barrel to make a mono block for the new barrels.

Now back to regulating. What I have been doing is to use in reality three wedges. The front one will end up being the front sight, the middle starts out half way back between the sling swivel which is the third wedge and the front sight. When I start, the bores are on the same horizontal plane but when viewed from the top they are slightly converging. This means that in theory they should print the same height but cross about two inches apart at 50 yards
I have found it is best to set your barrels up on a surface plate, (A thick piece of glass will do) and take measurements showing their exact relationship to each other. Write these down for reference. I also check and record them with a bore sighter, one with a graph in it. Every thing is held togther with hose clamps other then the clamps there is very little pressure on the wedges at this point.
Now it is out to the range behind the shop and from a standing rest I fire four shots marking each one as to which barrel. In all probility the barrels will be crossing. This means that the left barrel will be hitting to the right on the target and the right to the left. If this is the case then move the front wedge to the rear a bit. For example, if the shots were crossing and two inches apart I would move the wedge enough to spread the barrels about .004" and try again. Now it would seem that where crossing the barrelswere crossing at 50 yards and two inches apart they should be spread more like .008" but remember the rotational forces since the recoil is not along the center line of the bore.
Go back to the range and try it again after writing down all the measurements and using the bore sighter again. (By the way I came up with the correction measurements by using .001" as 1" at 100 yards or one minuite of angle, this is not quite right and there are other factors but it is close enough for our purposes)
If the elevation is off between the barrels split the difference, this is where a surface plate really helps. If you get to the point where you do not want to move the front wedge any further to the rear or you want to fine tune the regulating a bit use the middle wedge. Moving this wedge to the rear should bring the groups from each barrel closer togther and moving it forward should allow the groups to open up. Moving the third wedge(Front swivel) will have the same effect however you do not want the swivel to end up is a strange location so I only us it for final tweeking as it has less effect when moved. Both the front and middle wedges when moved make rather drastic changes and you can chace your groups all day trying to get it "just right" if you only use them. I hope I have been of some help!


banzaibird
(.333 member)
16/03/06 01:18 PM
Re: This new action...

Judson,

This is an iteresting approach for regulating. I do it more like Brown shows in his book except I don't do any welding to the barrels. I use a generic front sight and use shim stock till I get where I want. Then after getting measurements I make the final site. The only problem I had the first couple of times was not undersizing the sight to allow for the thickness of the solder.

The reason I started building was because I couldn't afford a DR. The more of them I make the more I realize that there are many fine DR's out there that are a bargain at their current prices. Only problem is I still don't have the money for those bargains either .

I was wondering if you do anything to try to cover the seems where the monoblock and the sleeves meet? I haven't done that so far but have been thinking of maybe attempting to cover it next time and was wondering what was/has worked for others? Also have you (or anyone else for that matter) tried doing a shoe lump barrel set at all? I was thinking of trying to do this as an alternative to cover the seems on a monoblocked job.

Bill


Judson
(.300 member)
16/03/06 01:53 PM
Re: This new action...


If you want to hide the seam where the mono block and the barrels meat then undercut the shoulder on the barrels a bit and chamfer the front of the mono block. When you crank the barrels into the mono block use enough force to cause the edges of the undercuts to raise up a bit. One trick is to turn the barrels in, back them off and crank them in again. Keep doing this enough to raise the sharp edges of the chamfer and undercut then solder them up again using enough force to raise the "lip" of the edges. DO NOT use too much force as you do not want to tweek any thing. If done correctly and polished out well no seam will be visable even with a magnifer, give it a try.
Please forgive my stupidity but what is a shoe lump? I truely do not know please explaine.


banzaibird
(.333 member)
17/03/06 10:51 AM
Re: This new action...

Judson,

I'll have to try that method of hiding the seem on my next project. Thanks for the tip.

Shoelump barrels start with the two barrels joined and then the metal that is formed into the lumps is joined to the barrels. Basically it is a way to take full length barrels and simply add the lumps to the bottom (the piece or shoe is actually contoured to the barrels where they meet). Not sure if that is clear or not. I hope it was.

Bill


banzaibird
(.333 member)
17/03/06 10:52 AM
Re: This new action...

For a better desciption I went back through some old posts on the forum and found some pretty good ones.

Old Thread

Bill


Judson
(.300 member)
18/03/06 11:08 AM
Re: This new action...


Thank you for the information, now I aint quite so dumb!!!!
I have a French 16 ga. that has shoe lumps and it was tripple proofed so it should take the pressure of a rifle conversion. As a matter of fact it is the highest pressure proofed gun I have so I would not say this would be a weak way of building barrels. The lumps on this gun are silver brazed or somthing simular, into place it is not a lead based soldered. For that matter the ribs and barrels are soldered togther using the same stuff! The gun was made by J-B Brunet A' Chartress do any of you know any thing about this maker?


banzaibird
(.333 member)
18/03/06 01:04 PM
Re: This new action...

I didn't think you were dumb before. Sometimes as it would seem we know what they are but don't or aren't using the same terminology. That makes it kind of difficult some times.

I've been told that French guns for some reason seem to be proofed to the heaviest load possible a lot of times. I have a 2 1/2" 12 gauge french gun that shows the triple marks. The gun was purposely chambered for the 2 1/2" load and was manufactured in the late forties. Unfortuantely the barrels were sawed off at about 18 1/2 inches by someone. The stock was also cut off a bit. Thus it will be a future conversion.

As far as your. Sorry can't help.

Bill


Judson
(.300 member)
18/03/06 04:54 PM
Re: This new action...

Thank you!!!!! I will show this post to my wife Barbara!!! What you say is very true after all to us Americans what is a pin? To the British it is a screw that you remove with a turn screw, and a tumbler is the hammer on a double.
Why there are so many French doubles up here in the Maine area I do not know other then our proximity to Canada but these guns should not be ignored and your point is well taken about the proofing of these guns. My Verney Carron is double proofed and if you check the book on proof marks you will find that it had the re-inforced proof which means a proof load of at least 20,000 psi or higher. On the other hand some French guns get proofed at lower pressure then max loads for modern ammo even though these guns are not vintage black powder jobs or so it seems from the proof marks. For example I have a 16 that was proofed at 850 kilos per cm which is on the low side and their is no indication as to weather it is bars or PSI. If you look at this action and anilise its strong point you would think it could take TNT for a proof load. This is the action I used for my .450 # 2 NE but I had other people who had mor knowledge then me about these things check it out first. Even so, and with any gun with major modifications you must re-proof the thing and not with you holding on to it!!!! In this case I used 118 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain bullet as the blue pill. 118 grains of H 4831 powder is the A Square max load for a 465 grain slug, and the IMR is a few steps faster.
This much powder even with this bullet is very much on the HOT side so seating a 500 grain slug on top of that load was probably a bit intensive but a proof load should be around 30% over standerd so I gave it a shot. Two shoots from each barrel and nothing changed and 100 shots later with around 100 grains and a 480 grain bullet and still nothing has changed so all apears well.


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
19/03/06 01:11 AM
Re: This new action...

*

CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
19/03/06 03:40 AM
Re: This new action...

France.



Judson
(.300 member)
19/03/06 10:20 AM
Re: This new action...

At least up here the French actions are out there. The last one I bought is the Verney Carron 12 ga action and as I mentioned I will have to make a new complete forearm and trigger guard but the $100 price tag was too much to resist so I own it. I got that gun out of Penn, and another at a gun show we did in Bangor for $175. The French guns are real sleepers as are a lot of the europian guns British is spelled with $ signs so the French guns end up being quite the bargan.

banzaibird
(.333 member)
19/03/06 11:23 AM
Re: This new action...

I call foul.... You aren't allowed to buy good guns cheaply out of PA those are mine .

Well I guess I can't be to hard on you. I was in Maryland today at the Baltimore Arms show. I bought a Simpson on a Merkel Style frame, JP Sauer and a nice Belgian gun all for less than $1,000.

I got to look at a few doubles that started there lives as DR's. I couple of decent Westley Richards and a few others.

Bill


Judson
(.300 member)
03/04/06 12:06 PM
Re: This new action...


The checkering on my .450 is comming along fine and I will soon be posting some pictures. If you would like I will post pictures about how to lay out a checkering pattern and how it is done, you know, the master lines and such.
The Big French 12 ga action is either going to be a .470 Nitro or a .500 Nitro, I am leaning towards the .470 for resale value but what do you think?
As for the checkering if you want to know, first you decide what you want for a pattern. This is for the most part cosmetic and up to personal taste. When doing this I use strips of electrical tape cut into 1/16" strips. These strips you can lay out along the bordors of the pattern and they will follows the curves with nicely and if you want to make changes it can be done with ease. I leave the tape on when I start cutting the checkering as it helps to prevent ren overs especially on the back stroke and you feel the tape long before you cut through it causing a run over. Once the pattern is layed out I remove the tape and from here on in you must work carefully when reaching the edges of the pattern. Checkering is not hard to do if you are careful and take your time, you will gain speed as you get experiance but even so to do it right will take time as in days not hours.


tinker
(.416 member)
03/04/06 12:24 PM
Checkering...

Judson-

I'm definitely interested in seeing photos of your checkering detail and setup.


Can't wait to see the pattern on your double.


--Tinker


WildCattle
(.275 member)
03/04/06 02:27 PM
Re: This new action...

Hello Judson,
One Kilo/sq cm is equivalent to 0.98 Bar. So this is a gun that is not proofed heavily at just a tad under 840 Bar. I do not know of J. Brunet. More than likely, he was a retailer who bought his actions or guns from the trade and just put his name on it. I bet that your gun has St Etienne proofs (the palms). Paris is a lot closer to Chartres, so he would likely have proofed the gun there if he had made it in his shop.
As for your remarks about heavy proofing, there is one reason: Marketing!
It became a seller's point to have heavily proofed guns such as double or triple proof, even on very high end (as well as relatively light) guns.
The Robust has a good name and is quasi-indestructible. So I would not worry too much about the proofing.
I agree with your comments on French guns. They are a lot cheaper than the british guns and are actually a lot cheaper here than in France. It is actually pretty hard to find Pre WWII guns in France as lots of them disappeared during the war. I would venture to say that the one you have in the East probably came back from Germany in 1945.


WC


banzaibird
(.333 member)
04/04/06 11:49 AM
Re: This new action...

Judson,

I to would like to see the checkering. This is something that I haven't ever done. I however just bought some basic tools to teach myself checkering so would really like to hear your thoughts with the pics on layout and cradles etc.

Since you were replying to my post I'll assume you were asking my opinion on the 470 or 500. Personally I would go with the 500 simply because it is a bit more uncommon. However until recently I've never sold any of the guns that I built so resale isn't one of my considerations. The gun I recently sold was a 50/70 built on a belgian 12 gauge. It was regulated for BP. The only reason I sold it is because the offer was something I couldn't walk away from. The rest are all still here. Though the guy took the 50/70 to a different club to shoot and gave them my name so now have about 3 guys calling. However I'm not looking at doing this on a commercial venture. So I'm not sure what I'm going to do with the callers yet. Maybe if I thin out my homebuilts some more I can buy a DR that began it's life as a DR.

Anyway the whole point was I build what interests me and is most useful for me. I won't be headed of to Africa anytime in the next 15 years or so, so most of what I built so far is small/med. bore. That said I'd build the 500. Though I would seriously look at the 577 like Marraki shoots. In fact I've begun to assemble parts for that. I picked up a 12 gauge hammergun that I'm going to use for my 577. However I'll probably build a 450/400 3" next. The 577 really isn't practical for me but it is something I just want.

The shop I build out of has CNC capabilities and I have been thinking about making a bunch of sights, quarter ribs and sling swivels etc in different sizes for sale to other home DR builders. Not that with set-up etc I'd become rich but more of a resource. I also have most of the bugs worked out of the underlever(snap) action with trigger plate mounted internals (blitz like). When that happens I should be able to keep myself in actions for a reasonable sum.

So are the DR's something that you are offering as general services out of your shop? Or is it more of a limited offer? I think that we homebuilders should get organized a bit and we can share even more info and possibly reamers etc.

Anyway I look forward to the pics of the checkering with full description and would like to hear anything else you have on any builds.

Bill

P.S.- My 22 hornet DR (built on Huglu 28 gauge) accounted for another 5 groundhogs today .


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
04/04/06 12:23 PM
Re: This new action...

*

Judson
(.300 member)
06/04/06 08:42 AM
Re: This new action...


I build custom rifles to earn a living, mostly bolt rifles but some doubles. The reason I got into building doubles is that I like doubles and could not afford them but also once you get into custom rifles that fit right you get spoiled and do not want the factory jobs any more. If you people want you can check out my web site which is under construction so please be patient. The site is http://www.customguns.us/


DoubleD
(.400 member)
12/04/06 04:18 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson,

I have never really considered adding a double to my collection as they are well beyond the means of a government worker two years out of retirement.

Now after reading this tread, I do see a nice retirement project ahead and way to acquire a double.

Currently I am living in South Africa. Guns are available here.

I am going to order Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions by Ellis Brown.

While I am waiting for the book to come give me some idea what I need to look for in the way of a shotgun?

You may have to refresh my memory about features because my only real experience with doubles was back in school 20 years ago, and most of that was Shotguns. I have worked on a few Double shotguns over the years. Most of my work has been with bolt guns and Single shots.

I have already decide on a caliber. .375 Flanged Magnum NE. My choice is based reason and logic. The reason, I have brass dies, a reamer and no gun, so it's only logical that build in that caliber.







Judson
(.300 member)
12/04/06 09:17 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

If you want to use a shotgun action you want to keep the pressures under 44,000 PSI for most useable actions, their are a few which will take higher pressures but even here you want a max load under 51,000 PSI NOT C.U.P.!! Check the pressures on the .375 flanged I am not sure where it falls.
The action you are looking for should have double underlugs and to be ideal have chopper lump barrels. You also will want a third fastner like a "Greener" cross bolt and it would be nice to have side clips on the barrel. Most actions will have the proof pressure marked on them some where and with basic math you will be able to figure if your cartridge falls within this pressure range. Also you want small diameter firing pins, lots of the old guns, and cheep guns have firing pin diameters that are far too large and even if the proof range is right bushing firing pins for a center fire rifle cartridge is a real pain. Good luck, have fun and be safe, and yes Brown's book is well worth the money.


DoubleD
(.400 member)
12/04/06 03:30 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson, please explain chopper lumps.

Bouble under lugs and Greener Cross bolt I understand.


AkMike
(.416 member)
12/04/06 04:04 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

DoubleD look here. It's in alphabetical order.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#Calibre


DoubleD
(.400 member)
13/04/06 01:06 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Thanks Mike that one got added to my Favorites!!

Ron_Vella
(.333 member)
14/04/06 05:48 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

INCORRECT LOAD DATA ABOVE

Despite my self-imposed absence from this site, I feel obligated to post a warning here before someone gets hurt. Judson talks about using 118 grains of IMR-4831, beneath a 500 grain bullet, for a blue pill, in his .450 #2 NE and quotes that load as the maximum load from Art Alphin's "Any Shot You Want". That is the maximum load shown for Hodgdon's H-4831 NOT IMR-4831. The maximum load for IMR-4831, as shown on page 550 of Art's book is 110.0 grains , and with a 465 grain bullet as Judson points out.

I have absolutely no idea what the pressure excursion might be with a load which is 8 grains over maximum, and pushing a 35 grain heavier bullet. No one can know that without a pressure gun. An honest mistake on Judson's part, put potentially very dangerous. PLEASE TAKE HEED !!!


banzaibird
(.333 member)
14/04/06 06:41 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I might be missing something but I don't see where he posted that. In fact the only thing I can find even close talks about the load he was using to self proof the gun since it was homemade. Thus it is over on purpose.

Or am I missing something or some post?

Bill


Judson
(.300 member)
14/04/06 08:14 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Thank you for your concern!!!! The proof load I was using was 118 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain bullet and this was a PROOF LOAD and should never be fired in a gun one is holding on to. I was stressing the gun to the point where I would feel safe firing it with a sane load which is around 100 grains of IMR 4831 with a 480 grain bullet. If any of you thought I was recomending the proof load as a standard load you are dead wrong and I am very sorry for any misunderstanding. With a proof load you are trying to blow up your gun and that load should never be used other then for proof testing. Thank you again for bringing up this vital point of safety!!!

Ron_Vella
(.333 member)
14/04/06 08:52 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson,

What you said, and I quote, is "I used 118 grains of IMR 4831 with a 500 grain bullet as a blue pill. 118 grains of this powder is the A Square max load for a 465 grain slug".

That very clearly says that Art Alphin's book lists 118 grains of IMR-4831 as a max load. That is not the case. He lists 118.6 grains as the max load with H-4831, which, as we all know, is a completely different powder. My great concern is that someone will see your post and try that load as a regular load in a hand-held rifle, with possibly disastrous results.


tinker
(.416 member)
14/04/06 09:04 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Might be time to look back and possibly edit a post there someone...



Ron-
How's your DR project coming along?
Got any photos?
I'd like to see what you've been up to with it.



--Tinker


Judson
(.300 member)
14/04/06 09:48 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I went back and changed that powder to the H 4831, I was never recomending that load for other then a proof load but your point about a person using that load with the IMR powder and a 465 grain slug is a good one and the results might not be good. For that matter most of the loads listed in that book are rather warm since the standard load for the .450#2 is around 100 grains of either IMR or H 4831 with a 480 grain bullet depenging on your rifle. The IMR powder is a bit faster and will work better in shorter barreled rifles.
Another powder that workes very well in these sive cartridges is RL 15. 88 grains of this stuff will give about the same velosity with a 480 grain bullet as 100 grains of the IMR 4831, yes I mean IMR 4831. However the RL 15 seems to give even lower pressures. One point with ALL these powders you must use some sort of a filler or you can get hang fires. Foam is what I like best as it does not have to be weighed and is easy to use and stays where it is meant to.
Thank you again for bringing up your very well made point and this just goes to show that we should all check the loading books before using a load found in print some other place! If any of you want loading info on this cartridge see if you can get N E 450 No2 to throw in his two cents worth, he has lots of experiance with this cartridge and has been a big help to me. Oh bye the way if I have made that mistake on other pages then page six please let me know where and I will change it, thanks again for pointing it out to me!


Ron_Vella
(.333 member)
14/04/06 11:28 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson,
Thanks for being a gentleman, for accepting constructive criticism, and for fixing the problem. I debated for a week about whether to post about this, fearing that things might degenerate into the usual pi$$ing match. My conscience wouldn't allow me to just ignore the error and then hear later of someone losing a hand or worse. I wasn't aware that you could still edit a post, this long after the fact.

Tinker,
Look for a photo display on the double gun BBS in the very near future.

Best to all!


NE450No2
(.375 member)
14/04/06 02:05 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson
Glad I could help.
When you get your 450 No2 finally done and sighted in I would like you to try Hornady 350 grain bullets with what ever load you are using for the 480 grainers, and also try 81 grains of IMR 3031 with the 350's. Both with filler of course.
They shoot the same place as the 480/500 grain bullets in my No2.
My standard load, the one I use in Africa is 88 grains of RL 15 with the 450 Woodleigh Softs and Solids and the 500 gr Swift A Frame. I also used some 450 North Fork cup points and flat point solids with 89 grains of RL 15 on my last Safari.


Judson
(.300 member)
15/04/06 08:59 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


No, I thank you, we all know that a proof load is not some thing to use for other then testing. How ever I miss quoted a loadind manual wich could be taken by a person as a correct load and cause problems! We all make mistakes and please feel free to call me on one if you see it as I am trying to help out all of you out there not inflate my ego. Thanks again and glad you are observant.


Judson
(.300 member)
15/04/06 09:07 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

All I have left to do on my 450 is to finish the checkering. I tried 81 grains of the 3031 as you mentioned and it shot great but a bit slow at 2250 feet per second. I am thinking of going up a bit. 88 grains of RL15 gave me fair results with the 480 grain slugs but again a bit slow so I am going to try 90 grains. All of these loads seem to print to about the same point as you said and the rifle is shooting 1.25" apart at 50 yards which in this case should put it about on at 100 yards. Bye the way, good to hear from you again!

500Nitro
(.450 member)
15/04/06 10:07 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


Judson,

Fascinating post.

Why do you say "a bit slow at 2250 feet per second" ?

What speed are you trying to achieve and why ?

Just for my own interest.

500 Nitro


577500WR
(.275 member)
15/04/06 10:49 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I think it was a typo of SLOW for LOW.

2250 fps isn't slow.



500Nitro
(.450 member)
15/04/06 12:10 PM
Re: Building a double rifle


I thought that but then he says going up a bit to 88gns ?

500 Nitro


Judson
(.300 member)
16/04/06 11:05 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

The "A bit slow" was refering to the 350 grain slug and acording to NE450#2 I should be at 2300 or a bit faster and pressure being pressure if you are low on velosity then you are low on pressure. Doubles are not built to take the pressures of a bolt gun and trying to get up to those pressures is crazy. However 2350 fps with a 350 grain bullet is well within the pressure range of the 450#2 chambering with a 26" barrel. Increasing velosity of a double rifle will bring your point of impact closer togther in most cases and this is what I am trying to do. Do not get me wrong I am very happy with the 1.25" groups at fifty yards but I am trying to taylor some loads where the 480 grain bullets and the 350 grain bullets will print the same or very close. Make no mistake the velosity I am getting now is something I can happily live with as it will dock down any thing I can hunt but experimenting is fun and educational, (I think). The 88 grains of RL 15 is with the 480 grain bullet and after today I will try 90 as again I am a bit low on the velosity for the 450#2 but not un happy with what I am getting.

Judson
(.300 member)
16/04/06 11:10 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

How do the cup points work out on game? My wife Barbara and I are planing a trip for 2007 with D.K.Safaris and Hans De Klerk was telling me that he thought those bullets might be the best of both worlds, soft vers solids.

DoubleD
(.400 member)
16/04/06 08:43 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

Judson and all,

Been looking at guns on the internet trying to get some idea whats out there to build on.

Looking at guns on the internet for this project is very frustrating. I can't see anything that you told me to look for.

In reply to:

The action you are looking for should have double underlugs and to be ideal have chopper lump barrels. You also will want a third fastner like a "Greener" cross bolt and it would be nice to have side clips on the barrel. Most actions will have the proof pressure marked on them some where and with basic math you will be able to figure if your cartridge falls within this pressure range. Also you want small diameter firing pins, lots of the old guns, and cheep guns have firing pin diameters that are far too large and even if the proof range is right bushing firing pins for a center fire rifle cartridge is a real pain. Good luck, have fun and be safe, and yes Brown's book is well worth the money.




I went to Gunsamerica and queried SxS under $1000

Here is the list of Guns I came up. I am not interested in a particular gun that was offered for sale but only the design itself for building into a double rifle.

Are there any on this list that should just be eliminated from consideration for building into a double rifle all together. Like Stevens 311 lineage, which I left off the list.

Are there any here that should be "first choice"

Heres' the list:

1. Browning BSS
2. Baker Batavia
3. Steoger uplander
4. Boito
5. CZ Huglu
6. Charles Daly
7. EAA Baikel
8. Virginia Capes
9. Fox Model B
10. Fox Sterling worth
11. Ithaca
12.SKB
13 Lafever
14. L.C. Smith
15 Remington 1900
16. Spartan
17. Needham
18 BSA
19 Bozard
20 Hooten
21 Midland
22 Armstrong
23 Excam
24 Miroku
25 Aya
26 Kabala
27 Simpson
28 J.P.Sauer

Wow that's quite a list.














500Nitro
(.450 member)
16/04/06 09:10 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

DD

QUOTE FROM ABOVE "The action you are looking for should have double underlugs and to
be ideal have chopper lump barrels. You also will want a third fastner like a "Greener" cross bolt
and it would be nice to have side clips on the barrel."

The above is really a description of an Anson and Deeley Boxlock Shotgun such as a
GREENER Pidgeon Gun or many of the other English SxS Shotguns.
I say Pidgeon guns as they were proofed for 2 3/4" cases and had Pistol Grip stocks.

I think the following may fit IF you can't find a Greener
BSA
21 Midland
27 Simpson
28 J.P.Sauer

German guns were always strongly built.

500 Nitro


banzaibird
(.333 member)
17/04/06 01:08 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

DD,

A couple of the other guns on that list will work. Though 500Nitro just gave you great advice. I mainly use the german guns because they are strong and cheap compared to english guns.

From time to time you can find a Greener with bad barrels for $400-$500. The big thing with online is to ask questions and for more pictures if necessary. It take time but you can get some deals as well. For example I bouth this German 16 ga for conversion for $105.

Just be patient and keep looking.

The stoeger and the baikal/spartan will take the pressure but they are very rough compared to just about all other sxs's. The Miroku 500 and BSS are basically the same gun (same frame as Miroku made the BSS however the Miroku has double triggers and extractors) and are very strong but don't have the third fastner.

Bill


DoubleD
(.400 member)
17/04/06 03:29 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I was looking for more info on the BSA today and found a Picture and it doesn't appear to have third fastener. True?

I am not in a rush to buy yet. I'm still in the education mode.

I am headed to America next weekend and catch a late plane back the following Friday. Late enough that I can run by the Dulles Convention Center and see if the one of the book sellers has Ellis Brown's book.




Judson
(.300 member)
17/04/06 08:39 AM
Re: Building a double rifle


From what I have been told the CZ would work very well. I have never looked at one of these guns but have baan told they have all bases covered.


Judson
(.300 member)
19/05/06 06:02 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

I finally got some pictures developed of the checkering of my double rifle. I will be posting the pictures and details on the bug bore topic under Building a Custom Big Game Rifle.


BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
20/05/06 02:47 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

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Judson
(.300 member)
20/05/06 07:55 AM
Re: Building a double rifle

Very nice rifle and it looks like you did a great job!!!! I have been thinking of using the CZ actions/ shotguns for a future project.

BlainSmipy
(.375 member)
20/05/06 02:25 PM
Re: Building a double rifle

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