| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/10/23 04:44 AM |
Watson Bros 360EX double
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UPS dropped off an eagerly awaited package today; a Watson Brothers double rifle in 360EX.
Seller's description:
Watson Bros SxS Double Rifle .360 Exp C&R Nice! W/H&H Case & Original Ammo
At auction is a Watson Brothers box lock double rifle in .360 Express caliber (.360 2 Ľ”). Barrel length is 26”, and S/N is 135XX.
Original condition is very fine, most of the original blued finish remains to the barrels with no rust or pitting present. The receiver retains much of its original finish as well, showing obvious original case colors, with no rust or pitting present. The stock set shows no chips, cracks, or damage beyond some scattered light handling wear and few minor scratches, the worst of which is a scratch just above the triggers on the right side as shown. Original butt plate is present and free from damage. The bores are clean, strong, and shiny. Mechanical function is excellent, lockup is nice and tight, and the rifle remains fully fit to fire as was determined by our gunsmith. Rear sight is marked 150 yds, and there’s a 250 yard leaf as well.
Included in the sale is an original period Holland & Holland leather wrapped gun case which has been the storage case for this rifle for at least the past 60 years. Two leather slings are included as well. Case condition is old and worn, though solid.
Also includes several boxes of desirable original period .360 Express 2 Ľ” ammunition. The following rare and hard to find ammo is available: 4 full boxes of clean Kynoch .360 190gr smokeless ammo (Imperial Chemical Industries Ltd London marked), one full box Kynoch .360 Nitro ammo (Nobel Industries Ltd London marked), and two RARE paper boxes of black powder .360 rounds by D. Fraser & Co. Edinburgh, Scotland. There’s also a full box of Kynoch (Nobel marked) empties, two additional loose empties, and 5 assorted loose live rounds.
This medium-game rifle by Watson Bros features gorgeous hand engraving, original finish and case colors, truly a work of art. A very nice, original, and highly collectible example of English craftsmanship at its very finest. Watson Bros is still in business today!
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/10/23 04:45 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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| degoins |
| (.333 member) |
| 12/10/23 05:51 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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WOW......WHAT A LITTLE BEAUTY!!!
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/10/23 07:11 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Thank you! I'm excited about using it this fall for white tail deer. And happy that I already reload for 360EX.
I'm taking some pictures outdoors to see if I can better get the colors and condition to show. Putting a little gun oil on the metal too.
Right now the only thing that disappoints is that the rear trigger has at times stayed fully depressed when opening the gun, and then that hammer doesn't cock. Pulling the trigger manually forward and then closing and re-opening the barrels cocks that side. I'm guessing this is just grime inside. If this needs a strip and clean, I would welcome recommendations for someone who can leave the screw slots as tight and new as they found them, as right now, they look new. If it didn't seem like sacrilege, I wish I could just shoot some spray action cleaner in the trigger slot and left firing pin hole, but I'm afraid to do any damage that way (and how would you lubricate inside after such a spray?)
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 12/10/23 07:12 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
WOW......WHAT A LITTLE BEAUTY!!!
Couldn't put it better - what a true gem you have there CJF.
Hope to see a range report on this one day too!
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/10/23 07:22 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/10/23 07:24 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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| prairie_ghost |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/10/23 10:50 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Interesting barrel crowns. Is that a Webley screwgrip action? Beautiful little rifle. I would love to stalk an elk with it.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/10/23 11:46 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
Interesting barrel crowns. Is that a Webley screwgrip action? Beautiful little rifle. I would love to stalk an elk with it.
Yes, it is a Webley screw grip. I'm curious as to when that patent expired. This rifle has "patent" engraved around the top lever, presumably something that would have stopped after patent expiration. I understand that Webley (& Scott?) would have made the barreled action to be finished by Watson Brothers. I have ordered the rifles history from Watson tonight and will report any details when that arrives.
| grandveneur |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/10/23 11:43 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Webley screw grip patent is from 1882 and normally the patents are valid for 20 years.
When was the rifle built ?
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/10/23 11:56 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Pending a reply from Watson Bros records I will dig my Nigel Brown book out to see if I can narrow down a date on this one.
- Mike
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 13/10/23 12:49 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
Webley screw grip patent is from 1882 and normally the patents are valid for 20 years.
When was the rifle built ?
Based on barrel address (29 Old Bond Street London) the rifle was made between 1895 and 1929/1930. A 500NE Watson double, #13595, sold at Morphy sold last year -- that rifle was described as circa 1907. Mine is #13566. Strangely, I also found #13557 from a 2001 auction at Butterfield & Dunning that had a 7 Bury Street address, which should be after 29 Old Bond. Not sure if that's a re-barrel but that would be an earlier serial number at a much later address (post 1935.)
If the screw grip patent expired in 1902 and my rifle is still marked 'patent', then I would expect it is between 1895 and 1902. Which would be consistent the rifle's light weight and probable NfB loading (based on the vintage ammo stashed away by it's previous meticulous owner.)
Would welcome any help on dates pending a reply from Watson's.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 13/10/23 01:03 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Thanks Mike. Looking forward to see if Nigel Brown's book has info.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 13/10/23 01:43 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
Thanks Mike. Looking forward to see if Nigel Brown's book has info.
Nigel Brown's book was not a great deal of help as the publicly available serial numbers are only for shotguns, Watson Bros numbered their rifles in separate serial number blocks and the rifle & handgun records are not public domain.
The only hint is that rifle #11280 was made in 1883, so yours is 2286 numbers away. Late 1890's maybe….Quen Sabé?
Be interesting to hear what the actual records details are.
- Mike
| grandveneur |
| (.400 member) |
| 13/10/23 04:48 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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From design of the rifle, I also believe that this weapon was rather built before the WWI, but black powder rifles were supposedly manufactured on request until the twenties. In India there were still customers.
| rigbymauser |
| (.400 member) |
| 13/10/23 05:25 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Beautiful petit gun. Congratulations.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 13/10/23 08:29 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Thank you rigbymauser and grandveneur!
Mike - I agree no earlier than 1895 based on Watson address.
Lastly, an abbreviated range report - I was out at range today to test a .361" 145gr LRN load for a single Alex Henry takedown falling block, also in 360EX. I tried that load in the Watson...not a good fit. I also tried 3 rounds I'd loaded earlier using heavier jacked .358" 185gr JHP. Same powder charge. This heavier load with jacketed bullets was much better. More testing ahead. And slugging the bore.
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 13/10/23 10:13 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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The heavier bullets sounds like you're getting somewhere at last CJF.
Graeme Wright used a technique of expanding a smaller diameter bullet to a larger size, this might be an option if the bullet weight is correct & the groove diameter of the barrel is larger than the projectile's size.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 14/10/23 04:10 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Ross Seyfried also wrapped slightly undersized jacketed bullets with Teflon tape to bring the size up a bit. As well, those more than a thou or so, used paper.
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 14/10/23 07:41 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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I know in the paper patch type loads the lands cut the paper, I guess if the teflon was the same amount of thickness then it would as well - whatever was at hand & it worked I guess!
I think (I don't have his book handy at present) in Graeme's example it was too much to do so, so the bullet was put in a die & hammered down so it spread out evenly.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 14/10/23 09:25 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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I first heard about Teflon taping, many years ago. Come to think about it, same with Ross' process with paper & that might have been 25 years ago.
Swaging will work, but much depends on the dies used and their hoop strength.
That is why Corbin's dies & presses are so expensive (perhaps according to Corbin).
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 15/10/23 11:48 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Well I heard back from Watson Brothers. My guess had been between 1895 and 1907 based on barrel address (29 Old Bond Street London, where Watsons move to in 1895) and 1907 based on another gun, numbered 29 after mine, being attributed to 1907. Further, the patent for the Webley expired 1902, so presumably before then as mine is still marked "Patent" around the top lever.
Watson's provided a copy of their ledger book and the file name of their image referenced my gun's serial number and the year 1906. So while they've been a bit oblique, I believe they are saying this was made in 1906, or at least sold then. I've asked for direct confirmation of the date, but in the meantime, below is what they shared as text and an image.
What I'm seeing is a 360 2 1/4" double ("A & T" or Arthur and Thomas Watson?) with a lever forearm and standing rear site with leaf, made by Webley. It was a 'Spec price" of 14.0.0. Customer was Profitlich.
In contract, the rifle before mine was a 450/400 3 1/4" case cordite double with Krupp barrels for 17.10.0. The gun after mine was also a 450/300 3 1/4" double, with many difficult to decipher markings for 25.0.0. So I suspect my little rifle was a bargain then as now.
I'm hoping Watson's provides more than just an image of the order book. The only other histories I've ever ordered were for my pair of Dickson double rifles, and those were amazing, with pictures of the ledger entries, but also commentary on the purchaser and context around what volume and mix Dicksons was producing that year.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/10/23 12:12 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Hi Chris,
The referenced “A&T” likely means Adams & Tate the barrel makers. You may find a very small 'A&T" stamp on the barrels ahead of the flats and behind the forend hanger.
I do hope you manage to get a bit more expanded information from Watson Brothers. As you mention, some of the other gunmakers (Rigby, Hollands, Dickson, Westley Richards, William Evans) are very good at providing extensive information. A couple others are not quite so forthcoming.
- Mike
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 16/10/23 08:28 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote: "The referenced “A&T” likely means Adams & Tate the barrel makers. You may find a very small 'A&T" stamp on the barrels ahead of the flats and behind the forend hanger..."
Mike - do you know if A&T stopped marking their barrels at some point? I have a mid-1880s 450BPE Alex Henry double with super clear A&T markings on both barrels where you describe, but there's nothing on this Watson in front of the barrel flats (or anywhere else).
| fraserdouble |
| (.224 member) |
| 16/10/23 07:05 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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I think that reference in the ledger is actually A&D for Anson and Deeley.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 16/10/23 11:45 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Thankyou fraserdouble! Good catch.
I'm sure you are quite correct now that I take the time to really look at the script.
- Mike
| rigbymauser |
| (.400 member) |
| 17/10/23 06:56 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
Thank you rigbymauser and grandveneur!
Mike - I agree no earlier than 1895 based on Watson address.
Lastly, an abbreviated range report - I was out at range today to test a .361" 145gr LRN load for a single Alex Henry takedown falling block, also in 360EX. I tried that load in the Watson...not a good fit. I also tried 3 rounds I'd loaded earlier using heavier jacked .358" 185gr JHP. Same powder charge. This heavier load with jacketed bullets was much better. More testing ahead. And slugging the bore.
I think the .360ex is a .364-.366 cal bullet.
Enjoy the range. Best fun to have on testing loads.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/10/23 08:42 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
I think that reference in the ledger is actually A&D for Anson and Deeley.
Agree! The "D" looks exactly like the "D" in double right after that. I had that wrong. Thanks.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/10/23 09:57 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
I think the .360ex is a .364-.366 cal bullet.
Enjoy the range. Best fun to have on testing loads.
I will measure the bores tonight. In going through the Holland & Holland case the rifle has inhabited for quite a few decades, I spent some time reading the index cards prepared by its previous owner. The only date noted on the cards was December, 1949. I wish I knew more about who owned this before me!
On those cards were bore measurements of 0.360" and groove diameter of 0.368-9"
If those turn out to be accurate, can you experts recommend
1) what diameter jacketed projectile to use? I have some new-old-stock RWS 9.3x72r bullets that are 193grain 0.362" or could order as needed, possibly from Hawk. For a few testing rounds, I could also tear down some factory 9.3x72r with 0.366" projectiles
2) what diameter lead projectile to use? I suspect I'll be ordering another mold from Accurate. What alloy for a NfB load going no faster than 1650fps?
Here are the cards:
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 17/10/23 10:21 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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I would have Lee make me a sizer die (maybe a 2 die set, .370", then .368" and I would size down 200gr. Sierra .375" bullet.
You could experiment with cup-pointing them, to produce slightly lighter bullets.
I used a lathe "centre-drill" for "cupping" 270gr. Speer to reduce them to 260gr. for some experiments.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/10/23 02:40 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Chris,
Depending upon how you get decent results on target and regulation I’d opt for cast bullets.
No worry about where to find “in stock” jacketed bullets, no compromise on best bullet diameters to fit the bore/groove, no cleaning copper fouling…..
Any bullet mix from 20:1, 15:1, wheel weights, or Lyman #2 should work just fine at about 1650’/sec for expected double rifle accuracy and distances. I’d personally use a gas check bullet, but that’s just my preference. A card wad at the olain base bullet base would work about as well.
- Mike
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 18/10/23 03:34 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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In the "case" of cast bullets, any .375 mould, sized or at least lubed, then reduced to the exact diameter you want with a Lee push-through die.
If lubed first, there will be ZERO damage to the bullet. If not lubed (lube grooves filled with lubricant), the lube grooves will collapse.
I tested this with some commercial 310gr. .375 bullets I obtained and reduced them to .367" for my 9.3x57 with one pass through the die I made. ZERO damage.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 18/10/23 11:24 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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If you like, I can swage paper patch bullets of any weight that, depending on the paper, can be wrapped to .366 or more.
I use these at 190gr in my Leeson single shot and it seems to like them.
Alternately, this would hold true for any .358” cast bullet.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 21/10/23 04:42 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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I cast the chamber, leade and bore and got 0.365"
My next step is loading some of the RWS jacketed (nickel?) 190 grain bullets on hand from a purchase of NOS 9.3x72r components (these were sold in 50 bullet boxes by Old Western Scrounger at some point in the past).
I am also loading some paper patched 170 grain LRN bullets that are 0.358". I have the 9lb onion skin paper from Buffalo arms - I'm trying that paper as well as credit card receipt paper I collected while fueling our RV on this summer's trip to Colorado. The receipts wrap much more easily for me.
I'll explore molds and sizing dies if successful with the above.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/10/23 01:37 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Chris,
In 1906 if it were a Cordite/Nitro rifle it would be so marked…..
- Mike
CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 23/10/23 09:30 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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What a great rifle! Congratulations on the buy.
Would you please post photos of the barrel flats, water table, and all barrel markings? That would help in providing background information.
fraserdouble is certainly correct. The ledger entry notes "A&D" for Anson and Deeley. Compare the "D" with the capital "D" on the next word, "Double". Same.
Do not try to put oil into the firing pin holes or other portals. You will just introduce harmful oil into the head of the stock. You can loosen the rear trigger by carefully cleaning the trigger blade (the part that goes up into the action) with a toothbrush and very light solvent, such as Kroil. Don't go overboard, and don't get it on the wood. You will see old crud slowly dissolve, and the trigger will free up.
I would never use Teflon as a substitute for paper or bullet lube.
Good luck, and keep us updated.
Curly
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 23/10/23 09:33 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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P.S.
I would advise against using that vintage ammunition. It is valuable in its own right.
If you do happen to shoot some of it, be sure to follow up with a good cleaning for corrosive primed ammo.
Curly
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/10/23 10:39 AM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Mike - agree with your comment about the rifle's 1906 date and nitro proof marks in effect then (post 1896 and post 1904 would dictate a nitro mark if proofed for nitro. I'm keeping this at nitro-for-black loadings.
Curly - I appreciate the help. I was planning on selling most of the vintage ammo, keeping some to go with each of the 360EX rifles I have now, so no plans to shoot it. Previous owner was nice enough to save an empty Kynoch box and 9 berdan cases (Kynoch and Eley) in addition to the loaded ammo. I will have to take the Daniel Fraser black powder ammo out of its bubble wrap soon and photograph that.
Re the rear trigger, appreciate the advice. I have not done anything except use the rifle and the trigger is no longer sticking. I still like the advice of cleaning off the trigger blade that's on this side of the trigger plate. I have Kroil on hand.
Apologies if I hadn't already posted flats and water table. Coming shortly, along with a range report. No barrel markings except as reported above: "Watson Bros" and "29 Old Bond Street London."
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/10/23 10:58 AM |
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Range results - Watson 360 - 10/23/23
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Range results - Loaded 193gr jacketed soft points by RWS, 0.366", over 22gr H4198. Results were much better. I did have to pass the loaded rounds back into the die without the seater installed to smooth out the mouth. Worked great at 35 yards. Need to load more and try further out.
First two:
Next two:
(the 2nd right barrel was my fault)
Barrel flats:
Watertable:
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/10/23 11:03 AM |
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Watson (1906) vs Webley (1905) screw grip rifles
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Thought the engraving was super similar on my Watson and this Webley:
Watson:
Watson:
Webley:
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/10/23 01:14 PM |
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Re: Watson Bros 360EX double
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Quote:
If you like, I can swage paper patch bullets of any weight that, depending on the paper, can be wrapped to .366 or more.
I use these at 190gr in my Leeson single shot and it seems to like them.
Alternately, this would hold true for any .358” cast bullet.
I need to try again with patching my .358" lead 170 grain bullets (of which I have a ton). When I did this earlier this week, using credit card receipt paper, the patches are neat and tight, but the resulting bullet is too large (0.370?) as I wasn't very scientific about the length of my patches. I'll have to re-read Curl's document on patching and actually calculate what I need. That said, receipt paper gives a really tight and neat patch!
If I can't get those smaller bullets to go, I'll look to source larger diameter (and heavier) lead pills to try naked or patched.
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 25/10/23 07:44 AM |
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Re: Watson (1906) vs Webley (1905) screw grip rifles
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Quote:
Thought the engraving was super similar on my Watson and this Webley:
Watson:
Watson:
Webley:
Now that's my idea of subtle engraving - just beautiful!
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 28/10/23 10:37 AM |
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Re: Watson (1906) vs Webley (1905) screw grip rifles
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I will ultimately need a cast bullet to practice, and potentially hunt, as my stash of RWS 193gr bullets is limited and shared with a 9.3x72r double. This is a shame, as they are super easy to reload since they have a mid-bullet band that stands proud of the base. I've been able to expand the case mouths enough to accept the smaller base diameter and then press and tap the bullets home, finishing with a pass through the seater with the central plug removed to smooth things out. These worked consistently at 50 yards and shorter. I haven't tried them further out.
I also tried 2 loads with purchased swaged lead bullets.
The first were naked 0.361" 145gr LRN bullets from Buffalo Arms that I got for my Alex Henry single($24.59 for 50). They weren't great in the Henry beyond 50 yard (likely too small), so I tried them in the Watson. They performed well enough at 35yds so I tried further out. We don't have steel at 100yrds so I tried the 200yd plates and was pleased to hit them 50% of the time for 6 shots. I'm happy with that given I am finding elevation to be the big issue I'm having with the Watson's iron sights. Not blaming the gun - I just need to practice with that wide shallow V and tiny front bead. I have only 8 loaded rounds left using the 50 bullets I bought and I won't replace them as I had much better luck with paper patched 0.358" 170gr LRN bullets from Bear Creek Supply. I bought a box of 500 of those for $50. They are terrible unpatched in the Watson and AH, but great patched in the Watson. I'll try them next in the AH. I'm hopeful about using these patched in all 3 of my 360EX rifles (there's also a GE Lewis hammer gun from the 1870s) after I get the Watson ready for next month's hunt. Bear Creek also offers a 180gr option at .358 and say they have a .361" 200gr coming soon, which sounds even better.
The patched bullets still reflect my newbie status as a patcher, but I'm getting better. Overall I need smaller finished bullet diameters, so I'll need shorter patches, and I have to make them stop further from the nose of the bullet as none of these rifles have long leades and I had some trouble closing the action on some rounds unless I peeled off some patch material.
It was a pleasant surprise that even rounds where the patch was cut off above the case neck by their final die pass performed OK. For patching paper I used gas station credit card receipt paper from refueling on our summer road trip. I will also try 9lb onion skin from Buffalo Arms.
So I'm planning on hunting next month with the jacketed flat nose RWS bullets, but I'll be exploring ways to make the 170gr LRN Bear Creek Supply bullets work via patching for use going forward.
All that said, I am very grateful for the advice on moulds above. So far, I have only tried casting for my 300 Sherwood and that worked fine. I may explore that further for these 360 rifles.
Pictures below -- first target shows the first pair of 170gr LRN patched 0.358" bullets at 35yds. The second shows the longer rifle range with a zoom to the 200yd plates.
