| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/08/19 03:04 PM |
John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun
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Hello All - I've just come to own my first double rifle, a John Dickson hammer gun, proofed as a 39 bore, so presumably 500 bpe, but haven't yet cast the chambers. Jones under-lever.
Serial is 3717, and this came out of a collection that stopped adding new pieces by 1965. Condition is rather nice, with 80% engraving coverage that's still quite crisp. Barrels may have been re-blacked.
I'll try posting an image using Google for hosting. I'd be grateful if you could tell me if this worked for you (I loved photobucket but haven't signed up for their new fee schedule.)
Here's a link: [image]https://photos.app.goo.gl/t3rezegG6wZdPdrNA[/image]
Auction is at: https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/john-dickson-son-rifle-double-barrel-1920s-jmd-ccf4a28a1e
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 17/08/19 03:55 PM |
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Hello CJF - butt plate's a little worm eaten, but nice overall.
Welcome.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/08/19 10:24 PM |
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The horn butt plate has definitely seen better days. I was surprised to see the two screws retaining it were both nicely engraved, and what the worms didn't eat, showed little wear.
Here are a few pictures I took last night
Right side of the action: [image]https://photos.app.goo.gl/CAs1ZRzPjigQ7KeW8[/image]
Rear sight, showing 100, 200 and 300 yard leaves. I really the engraving: [image]https://photos.app.goo.gl/c2isrUhsjFv9GATTA[/image]
Another link of the rear sight, using Photobucket (decided to pay them for that privilege)
[image]
[/image]
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/08/19 11:17 PM |
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Another showing the breech face
[image]
[/image]
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/08/19 11:19 PM |
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One of the right hand side of the action, showing the safeties
[image]
[/image]
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 17/08/19 11:21 PM |
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That is very nice, good score. Aside from the buttplate, how is the condition of the bores?
Auction house description is (to me) quite funny & ignorant claiming a "1920's" rifle, with a "plastic" buttplate, and requiring an FFL?
This one is surely 1870's to maybe mid 1880's........prominent fences, non-rebounding locks, stalking safeties are a dead giveaway. Probably a horn buttplate, no "plastic" on a high end rifle back in 1880.
Dickson records are still in existence.
Prepare to have some fun.
- Mike
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/08/19 01:40 AM |
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Mike - the left barrel was great. The right looked to have either dirt or pitting near the chambers. Muzzle end of both bores were nice. Haven't run a patch thru either yet.
Picture of muzzles and breech below. BTW, are these photos annoyingly big?
[image]
[/image] [image]
[/image]
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/08/19 02:22 AM |
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun
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Quote:
...Auction house description is (to me) quite funny & ignorant claiming a "1920's" rifle, with a "plastic" buttplate, and requiring an FFL?
This one is surely 1870's to maybe mid 1880's........prominent fences, non-rebounding locks, stalking safeties are a dead giveaway. Probably a horn buttplate, no "plastic" on a high end rifle back in 1880...
I couldn't agree more, Mike, about the auction house's description. I'm wondering if 1920 is when the piece was added to the collection. I will be reaching out to Dickson for their records. Thanks.
The auction house' site gave this as background to where this collection came from.
Welcome to our JM Davis Firearms Sale
The JM Davis Firearms Museum in Claremore Oklahoma is the largest firearms museum in the world! In celebration of fifty years of existence, we’ve been asked by the JM Davis Foundation to auction the antique guns and firearms that were a part of JM Davis’ private collection, occupying a store room for over fifty years. Proceeds from the sale directly benefit the long term curation and maintenance of the collection.
Working with the Museum staff, Foundation, and Commission that governs the Museum, we mutually decided to hold the auction at the Museum itself. This is an important decision because it will potentially bring hundreds of enthusiasts and collectors to Claremore to see the museum and have a chance at buying one of JM Davis’ personal collectibles.
The goods in the sale have been under lock and key for 50-59 years. The Museum holds approximately 14,000 antique guns and firearms, representing virtually every aspect of this part of world history. These items represent an entire genre of inventions, from hunting to target shooting competitions to weaponry, virtually from the earliest inventions such as cross bows to early flint-lock guns and rifles.
We welcome all of you to come visit the Museum and chat with fellow collectors and enthusiasts. It is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
The JM Davis Museum is a wonderful historical representation of antique weaponry. The 40,000 square feet of displays show off the wide variety of firearms and their incremental development through time. There are also displays of some of the most famous weapons owned by criminals and lawmen, and also the macabre…
And also:
Introduction to the J.M. Davis Private Collection Firearm and Artifact Auction
J.M. Davis ran the Mason Hotel in Claremore, Oklahoma, for his entire career, from 1917 onward. From the age of seven in 1901 until 1965, he was an inveterate collector of all firearms, as well as artifacts reflecting history in Oklahoma and the Mississippi Valley region. To preserve his collection in perpetuity, he created the 40,000-square-foot J.M. Davis Arms & Historical Museum in Claremore, which is today managed by the State of Oklahoma. It is the largest firearms Museum in North America.
The museum is a must-see for any weapons collector, displaying an incredible amount and variety of weaponry and famous felon, outlaw, and law enforcement personality items from history.
Proceeds of this sale directly benefit the long-term care and maintenance of the Collection. None of the items in this sale are out of the current museum exhibit displays. Nearly all of the items have been stored away, out of public view, since at least 1965 (54 years!), long before the modern era when most of the well-written and researched reference and table-top books on antique firearms were published. As an example, none of these weapons were known to R. Larry Wilson, a prolific firearms writer and author of approximately 60 books on antique firearms, who as a young man and budding firearms scholar, worked for Colt about the time this part of the collection went into storage.
The sale hosts more than 2200, antique to modern (probably none more recent than 1965) firearms, swords, crossbows and knives. In addition, there is a large section of Americana, featuring Native American stone and pottery items, primarily from Oklahoma and the Mississippi Valley. Items of cultural significance that are not in the sale are designated for, or already transferred to, the Oklahoma State Museum.
Davis was also a button, badge, medal and pinback collector, and there are more than a thousand items in this category, mostly in like-kind groups.
The two-day preview prior to the sale is a must for any serious collector.
| Kdgj |
| (.224 member) |
| 18/08/19 03:45 AM |
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CJF,
Dickson will send your serial number request to Donald Dallas. For a fee, he'll email you a copy of the ledger page. The gun was sold on 4 Nov 1882.
Ken
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/08/19 04:33 AM |
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Thank you Ken for the date. All I knew was pre-1887.
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 18/08/19 07:40 AM |
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You have a most impressive double there CJF!
The engraving is certainly the highlight of this wonderful arm.
Better get those bores & chambers checked over as Capt Curl or Huvius will be itching to give you some reloading info if you haven't got it already!
Can't wait to see what you grand old lady will do.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 18/08/19 07:52 AM |
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STILL kicking myself now for not buying that 'spare' Purdey .500BPE from Curly last August. Just couldn't justify the $$.
| TH44 |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/08/19 09:11 AM |
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Very nice indeed, the Rose and Scroll engraving is my favourite
Plus one for 3dogMike, everything shouts early, those percussion style fences are excellent
As well as the fences, safeties and non-rebounding locks, the finger rest instead of a pistol grip is a giveaway for an early rifle
CJF - the pics are ok, they save my old eyesight from the need to enlarge (Control/Command and +) [Thanks Daryl]
You have an excellent addition to your armoury, in a good Indian calibre .500BPE
Good luck if/when you shoot it
TH44
CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 18/08/19 09:58 AM |
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Quote:
STILL kicking myself now for not buying that 'spare' Purdey .500BPE from Curly last August. Just couldn't justify the $$.
Still can be had. . .
| Iowa_303s |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/08/19 12:16 PM |
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Very nice!
Let us know how you get on with it.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/08/19 07:35 PM |
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Thank you so much for the nice feedback.
Here are few more shots of the engraving:
[image]
[/image] [image]
[/image]The rifle weighs 9 lbs even on our home digital scale
| rigbymauser |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/08/19 07:58 PM |
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This is one of these threads where I again want another vintage doublerifle added to the collection...actually I want this all the time..:-)
Thanks for sharing this lovely John Dickson. Love to hear how it shoots.
I can never become too tired of seeing these old time capsules.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 19/08/19 12:45 AM |
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That is a beautiful rifle!
Congratulations on taking the plunge!
If you don't have cerrosafe or a good way to make a chamber cast, you could simply use a small dowel or popsickle stick with a nice square end to feel down the chamber and mark the length.
It will surely be a 3" 500 but nice to confirm before loading.
The components and a good selection of bullets are all very accessible here so it will be no problem getting her to sing.
Couldn't think of a better first double rifle.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/08/19 10:58 AM |
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Thank you Huvius and everyone else who has helped out.
I did try checking chamber length and I'm pretty sure it's 3" and not 3.25". but while I'm waiting on Cerrosafe to arrive for a chamber cast, can anyone point me towards a primer on reloading for the 500 bpe? And possibly a source for brass and the most common bullet molds used?
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/08/19 11:21 AM |
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Right now either Sinclair (Brownell’s affiliate) or Buffalo Arms has Hornady .500 3” brass for about $70 - $74 for a box of 20
“If” your rifle is a 3 1/4”, which is unlikely, then your single choice is Bertram brass from Buffalo at about $107/20
A budget alternative is to find once fired .470 brass and neck up to .500 then trim to length....same basic case.
I would wait on the bullet mould until you can slug the bores.....tho a soft alloy paper patch bullet and BP can easily deal with a lot of different bore diameters. It helps to already be familiar with paper patching tho.......
Graf’s has 1 set of .500 NE dies left in stock.
Unless the bore is severely undersized you can just order some 350 grain .510” cast bullets lubed with SPG and try ~136 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 or Olde Eynsford black powder (card wad and grease cookie required), or for NfB smokeless try 400-450grain .510” and appropriate charge of H4198 with Dacron, kapok, or backer rod filler & load it up.
Woodleigh makes 440grain .510” jacketed bullets especially for BP Express rifles.
As Huvius mentioned a simple 1/2” dowell, plastic tube, or even rolled paper, maybe wrapped in tape to a bit bigger diameter, can easily be slipped into the chamber to nail down the case length.
Oh yes, the best source for learning reloading in’s and outs for BP Express rifles would be Graeme Wrights book “Shooting the British Double Rifle”. If there are no more copies available in the ‘States (do a Google/Amazon search) then I think John “NitroX” here may be able to get you one for a reasonable price.
- Mike
| Kdgj |
| (.224 member) |
| 25/08/19 02:56 AM |
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If you can't find Graeme Wright's book, there are good Double Gun Journal articles by Ross Seyfried and Sherman Bell on NfB loads. If you need the Volume and Issues, let me know.
Ken
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/08/19 08:18 AM |
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Ah, found it: Link to Seyfried article on loading .500BPE
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=317618&an=0&page=0#Post317618
......As Curl mentions, DO NOT be tempted to try “Trail Boss” in a vintage Black Powder Express rifle.
I use 1/2” foam backer rod with H4198 and have had no problems in MY rifles.
- Mike
| Kdgj |
| (.224 member) |
| 26/08/19 01:13 AM |
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Mike,
Thanks for posting the link. A great article by Ross.
Ken
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 09/09/19 12:25 AM |
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Yes, thank you for posting the link. I've been having fun pouring through 20 years of Double Gun Journals looking at hammer doubles. I was very lucky with this purchase.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 14/09/20 03:23 AM |
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun
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Quote:
That is a beautiful rifle!
Congratulations on taking the plunge!
If you don't have cerrosafe or a good way to make a chamber cast, you could simply use a small dowel or popsickle stick with a nice square end to feel down the chamber and mark the length.
It will surely be a 3" 500 but nice to confirm before loading.
The components and a good selection of bullets are all very accessible here so it will be no problem getting her to sing.
Couldn't think of a better first double rifle.
So a year has gone by and I've only just cast the chamber with cerrosafe. Honestly, this was the first time I've done a cast and I put it off for a quite awhile due to fear I'd damage the rifle or have the cast stick in rifle. Finally tackled it last weekend and here's what I'm seeing:
1) case length is 3"
2) freebore or leade is 0.36" long. I was surprised at how stark a ring or shadow this shows when looking through the barrel, when in reality it is a totally smooth taper to the rifling's start
3) rifling has 6 lands (0.090" wide) and 6 grooves (0.171")
4) chamber at base 0.573", at mouth (before leade) 0.541"
Bore seems smaller than the 0.510" I was expecting. More like 0.502-.504.
Brass and dies are on order from Graf's, along with a selection of black powder (there was a 4lb minimum.)
Any feedback on either the bore measurement or recommendations on projectiles? I'd like to initially try buying projectiles to see what works, before getting a mould.
Regards,
Chris
| MikeRowe |
| (.333 member) |
| 14/09/20 03:44 AM |
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5 drams of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F, a 3/16" lube cookie and a paper wrapped .502" bullet 1 in 16-20, and it'll probably shoot.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/09/20 06:15 AM |
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Finally had this out at the range yesterday to try my attempts at loading for this rifle and the 500 BPE.
Load was 137gr FFg Old Eynsford and a unpatched .500 370gr cast bullet. It's on the paper at 50 yards, but not regulating. From Graeme Wright's book, I believe I have too low of velocity. Since there's no room left in the case, I'm guessing this means trying 1) a lighter projectile, 2) FFFg, or 3) paper patching what I have now with the 370gr cast bullet for a tighter seal and less friction. (Mike - I'd already ordered powder when I saw your response, so I couldn't try 1 1/2 F.)
I'm planning on loading 6 more with my original try, since I was a bit anxious about shooting this the first time (first time ever shooting a double rifle!), plus 6 paper patched, with same charge, then 6 patched with FFFg.
Any other suggestions? I'd like to see if I can get these 370s to group before trying a different bullet.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/09/20 06:53 AM |
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You note here that this is the first time you've shot a double rifle
Hold is critical to getting a double rifle to shoot properly.
Did you shoot from a rest?
Did you use a Lead Sled?
Did you shoot off bags?
Anything that isn't a proper hunting hold on the rifle can affect (greatly) the rifle's performance on the target.
Bullet fit VS groove diameter can affect the internal Ballistics. What is the groove diameter? What size did you size those bullets?
Can you describe how the printed target looked?
Shots crossing?
Groups apart?
Good groups from each barrel?
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/09/20 06:57 AM |
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Fun to shoot right?
You’ve left out a few details:
- Bullet diameter?
- Bullet temper (hardness)?
- Bullet lubed with proper Black Powder lube?
- “not regulating”...meaning what....shooting apart?, crossing? (I’d guess shooting apart)
- individual barrel groups are OK, or shooting all over the place.
- ever get a good measure of groove diameter?
- chronograph velocities?
- wiping between shots or blow tube?
- powder charge....just poured, drop tube, or powder compression? Weighed 137 grains or 5Drams by BP measure?
- bench rest or off sticks? Hand between forend/barrels and whatever it is rested on?
Just a start and important to know.
- Mike
EDIT: I see Tinker beat me to the keyboard by a couple of minutes
| MikeRowe |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/09/20 10:33 AM |
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Yes, patching the bullet will really help!
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/09/20 10:58 AM |
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Hi Tinker & 3DogMike -
I'll try to provide more information and answer your questions.
Regarding the firing position, I was at a bench, shooting off a Caldwell bag (not a lead sled). Left hand under the forearm, but NOT grasping hard or pulling in. (Similar to this bag: https://www.amazon.com/Caldwell-Deadshot-Construction-Resistance-Shooting/dp/B000PG7VRO)
Regarding the bore, I confess I don't have great confidence in my measurements, but I came up with 0.504 land and perhaps 0.508 groove. Bullets measured 0.502-0.503 and were just lubed, not paper patched (yet). They had a gas check. Cast. 370 grain. I do not have a sizer.
Charge was measured by volume. Compressed 1/8-1/4" inch when seating projectile. Standard rifle primers. After pouring, I tapped the case a few times to settle the charge before seating bullet on top of a cardboard wad cut by hand (so rough).
Lube was ancient Thompson Center lube from 30 years ago when I hunted with a flintlock, spread in the bullets grooves and also under the bullet. Rounds were fired 24 hours after loading.
Brass was new Hornady.
Results were much better for left barrel, with all 3 striking no more than 2.5" from centerline point of aim. First shot was low 2", left 1.5". 2nd was low 1/2", left 1/2", 3rd was high 2.25", left 2".
Right were all further out from POA, at outside ring (6") spaced starting at 2pm up thru 1pm.
I'll get a picture up later. I am a decent shot and I knew while shooting this that I could do better (I was a bit nervous and excited.)
I will double check my volume measure for the charge before repeating.
Chris
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/09/20 11:18 AM |
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Trying to post pics from imgur instead of photobucket [image]
[/image] Left side = left barrel, with 1 low, 2 high, 3 near bull.
Right side = right barrel, with 1 being lowest, furthest right, 2 higher, left, 3 highest, closest to 1pm. (sorry I didn't photo the target after noting the sequence. I'm learning and I'll get there!)
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/09/20 12:48 AM |
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Quote:
Hi Tinker & 3DogMike -
I'll try to provide more information and answer your questions.
(snip).......
Regarding the bore, I confess I don't have great confidence in my measurements, but I came up with 0.504 land and perhaps 0.508 groove. Bullets measured 0.502-0.503 and were just lubed, not paper patched (yet). They had a gas check. Cast. 370 grain. I do not have a sizer.
.......(snip)
Chris
Chris,
Nice looking rifle, so more pictures please!
Being "not sure" of bullet and groove could be a possible root of your issue:
"don't have great confidence" .....bullets are .502-.503 while lands-grooves are "perhaps" .504-.508, and you do not mention bullet hardness. (Very shallow rifling?)
Typical wheel weights/Lyman #2 or commercial hard cast grease groove bullets better be at least groove diameter.
You can get good results with undersized bullets with black powder if you use soft bullets that get slugged up by the BP when fired.
Talking about bullets cast of 1-30 or 1-20 tin/lead.
Paper patch bullets and cast of soft mix are an alternative if you are already familiar with the quirks of making and using them.
You would be miles ahead to get some no kidding accurate measurements of bullets and bore/groove dimensions then go from there.
- Mike
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/09/20 10:50 AM |
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If you have a proper machine shop in your area, they can determine for you the groove diameter.
Are you running the under sized bullets because that's all you have?
With your fired / not resized cases, that bullet will pass through the neck with no problems, right?
Patching could get them to fit.
Next time at the range, hold the rifle like you're shooting it in a hunting situation.
Good isometric hold like it counts.
You can rest the back of your support hand on a rest or tripod.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/02/21 02:01 PM |
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Wondering whatever happened with this Dickson? Nothing since September, and no more pictures
- Mike
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 27/02/23 07:13 AM |
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Right now the Dickson's worm eaten horn butt plate is being repaired (or if that fails, replaced). Apologies for going dark on that rifle. It is a beautiful piece. I got distracted by a 450 BPE Reilly double last year.
I've just retired, so I'm finally circling back to a bunch of projects, including getting the Dickson to shoot as well as it looks.
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 30/03/23 06:48 AM |
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A quick update...
First off, apologies to Mike Rowe for not responding to your advice to paper patch. I did buy the book on that and will try it once the Dickson is back in my hands. I'm having its horn butt plate repaired (if possible) or replaced so I can shoot it without the fugly leather strap on butt cover I've been using to protect the worm eaten original plate from being further damaged. That's in process now.
Second, I was fortunate to have been able to pick up a second 500 BPE double. This is a Woodward from 1892 that just arrived from Holts November 2022 auction. I now have twice the reason to work up loads. The rifle is nice. Some renewed finishes but not overdone in my view. Rebounding hammers. Jones undercover. Brilliant bores. I will post pictures on a new thread once I get it outside in the sun at the range. (I was also very lucky to have scored the Dickson 250 rook in the same auction. That one is simply gorgeous. Of course no one seems to have 250 rook dies in stock...)
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/06/23 12:34 PM |
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I just received a history of this gun from Dickson’s. Surprised to learn it was regulated for 4.5 drams of CH#6 powder. This is 4.5*27.34 grains of black powder right? This is lighter than I thought.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/06/23 01:35 PM |
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According to the Bill Fleming book "British Sporting Rifle Cartridges" some of the early Eley loadings for the coiled brass .500 3" and drawn brass .500 3" were 120 & 126 grains of powder and variously 340 or 380 grain bullets (Paper Patched of course). The 136 grain (5 Drams) loadings came a bit later.
- Mike
| MikeRowe |
| (.333 member) |
| 25/06/23 09:45 AM |
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That is great news you have the regulation load. Even if it's only half a dram less, anything is a help to take a bit of the bite out of a bloody .500!
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 29/06/23 10:01 AM |
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Looking forward to trying this out when we are back from Colorado
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/06/23 10:58 AM |
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Quote:
Looking forward to trying this out when we are back from Colorado
Chris,
where and when are you in Colorado? Check your PM's
- Mike
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/06/23 11:03 AM |
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Quote:Quote:
Looking forward to trying this out when we are back from Colorado
Chris,
where and when are you in Colorado? Check your PM's
- Mike
Yeah!!
Let's go shooting!!
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 29/06/23 09:38 PM |
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There's nothing unusual about the 4-1/2 dram load. Here is the charge card for my Purdey .500 2-3/4" BPE built in 1894 for Sir Atherton Edward Jenkins:
Curl
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/07/23 06:18 AM |
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Hey Curl, neat charge label. I wish I had the case for my rifle and a label like that. I had no experience with double rifles before getting this one and what I was reading suggested heavier loads, so I was happy to hear about another avenue for trial.
Mike and Huvious, I’m probably not going to be able to make a meet up work this trip given the commitments made already. I’m really liking this RV traveling so far so I’m sure we will be back. Hopefully when temps are lower! (Most of the drive was way hotter than back in NC)
Regards
Chris
| CJF |
| (.300 member) |
| 19/09/23 09:33 AM |
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Re: John Dickson 500 BPE hammer gun
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I picked up this rifle and the horn butt plate repair was a success. Also laid in a supply of 120 500 3" cases for the Dickson and the Woodward so I don't run into the issue I was having with the 450 where I couldn't find brass (I am very grateful for the help Bwanabobftw gave me there!)
A range trip is in the future, behind some other projects. I'm trying to find an accurate load to use in my takedown AH single for a shoot in mid-October and have just finished loading a few different 360 BPE loads (all nitro for black). This supply will also support taking the recently repaired early GE Lewis 360 park rifle out for it's first outing with me (that one was described in a different thread...basically a neat gun with loose ribs which have since been relayed (sp?)
I will also be trying the 450 BPE load that worked well in my Reilly in a new-to-me Dickson 450 double. That rifle isn't as nice as this 500 BPE first quality gun, as it is a 2nd quality rifle with many more trips to the field than the 500. A third double will be on this outing as well -- a very good condition 3rd quality Alexander Henry double in 450 BPE. Metal is very very nice. Wood has some bumps but also nice, with attractive grain for a plain gun. More on these later. My intent is to get working loads for two of these three 450s done by November's deer season, when I'm heading north to Minnesota to hunt with a friend (who will be using one my doubles as well.)