(.400 member)

30/08/13 06:46 AM

Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello All,

I'd be interested in any info that might be available on a Bruxelles Double Rifle Builder by the name of "AD. Jansen. I found this littlegun link on "Adolphe Jansen" - http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/art...dolphe%20gb.htm - but would like additional info if anyone has any.

Apparently his work is very good as can be seen in this Underlever 500 3-1/4 BPE. It has rebounding hammers, Henry rifling, Henry forend lever, and very nice engraving.

I'd be particularly interested in how to interpret the barrel markings.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

(.450 member)

30/08/13 06:59 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Buck

Don't know about you but my FIRST impression when I saw that was it is very English looking / lines.

Nice looking rifle.

(.400 member)

30/08/13 07:45 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello 500Nitro,

Yes, it looks very similar to my William Richards from Liverpool. Nearly identicle lines.

(.416 member)

30/08/13 08:21 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

From what In read on the ads for it the caliber isn't a "for sure thing" One ad said a .52 caliber the other says .45..Beware..

(.333 member)

30/08/13 08:32 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

I have a Jansen Cape gun, the image of this one, but with extensive deep engraving, in 12 ga, and 450 3 1/4", I believe built for British trade as the shotgun is on the right (correct) side, and no set trigger. Seems to be top quality!
Doug

(.416 member)

30/08/13 08:49 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Quote:

From what In read on the ads for it the caliber isn't a "for sure thing" One ad said a .52 caliber the other says .45..Beware..

.45cal is 52 bore, so maybe saying the same thing.

(.416 member)

30/08/13 12:41 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

But the thing was made in Belgium and is marked with the 12.0 for MM. 12 mm is about a .500 caliber

(.400 member)

30/08/13 01:25 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Quote:

From what In read on the ads for it the caliber isn't a "for sure thing" One ad said a .52 caliber the other says .45..Beware..

Hello AkMike,

Yes, one listing said 50 cal, and another said a measured 52 cal. And there was a mention of 3-1/4" chamber measurements. The 12.0 mm stamping would indicate a .472 bore, but not sure what the groove would measure. I will find out for sure in a week or so.

Any idea of what the "MESSART" barrel marking is all about? The rifle's serial number is 184 so I believe the "3716" stamping is perhaps a Henry record license number. My W. Richards numbers are 2074 & 2075, dating to about 1872, so I would expect this higher number to be a later date.

(.416 member)

30/08/13 02:20 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Messart could be the barrel or steel maker.

(.400 member)

30/08/13 06:32 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Alphonse Massart was a barrelmaker at Henne-lez-Chaudfontaine near Liege.

(.400 member)

30/08/13 08:40 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello kuduae,

Thank you for that piece of information. It has been duly recorded.

Would you have any idea of the production date?

(.416 member)

31/08/13 12:14 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

I'd guess 3rd July 1916.

(.275 member)

31/08/13 02:32 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hi Buckstix,
I had seen that rifle as well.
Adolphe Jansen (sometimes Janssen or Jansens) is a well known maker/retailer.
The firm was active in Bruxelles and was registered in Liege from 1859 to 1958.
He was gummaker to the King (of Belgium of course). Located rue de la Madeleine, 27.
MASSART Alphonse had patented in 1902 a method of joining barrels.
Other people have had their hands in this nice looking double. There is an IR mark that I can't trace.
You are right for the caliber, .472 would be land diameter. There are not many rounds that would work.
A remote candidate would be the 12.17x44R Remington.
Best regards,
WC-

(.450 member)

31/08/13 04:38 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

AkMike

"I'd guess 3rd July 1916."

Interesting thought considering what WW 1 had done to that area the two years previously !

(.416 member)

31/08/13 11:56 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

From what I remember they always put the date on like this. I've for some Austrian DR's with the dates done like this.

(.470 member)

31/08/13 01:54 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

I think Jansen was more a retailer and would bet this double actually was made in Liege ...
like many other british rifles.

would be the same like most of the german court gunmaker who get their guns from Suhl. Jannsen was the leading outfitter in belgium for anyone going to africa.
this here is a 12,7x70(500 jeffrys) sold by Jansen once into the belgish congo and than for decades in the hands of Adrian de Schryver there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKkZawWUqTQ

(.400 member)

31/08/13 03:05 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Quote:

There are not many rounds that would work.
A remote candidate would be the 12.17x44R Remington.

Hello WildCattle,

One listing for this rifle stated the chamber measured 3-1/4" long so the 12.17x44R would be much too short being only about 1-3/4" long.

I'm guessing this was made for the British market and expect it to be a standard 500 BPE 3-1/4" caliber. A chamber cast will tell for sure.

(.275 member)

31/08/13 04:03 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Buckstix,
A 500 cal should be 12.7mm land (bore) diameter or there about.
That's a long ways from 12.0mm!
There were many caliber variations in the early 1900s especially in Germany, so anything can happen.
You'll know when you get it, if you get it!
WC-

(.400 member)

01/09/13 11:33 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

so maybe this is a .475 cal.

(.400 member)

10/09/13 11:59 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello All,

Well, the AD. Jansen arrived today. I am very pleasantly surprised by its overall condition. Its so "tight" that its hard to open and close. No marks what-so-ever on the recoil face which still has 100% case color. Almost all the wear (mostly on the heel) likely comes from standing in the gun cabinet with typical "show & tell" handling, and not shooting. The bores are mirror bright as new. Even the muzzle faces of both barrels are clean and "patina" bright, showing no signs of having been fired.

I was especially pleased to see the very fancy Heel and Toe plates with yhe in-between checkering.

If I had listed this this Double, I would have said "Looks Unfired" in the description.

The caliber, per chamber cast, is 500-3" BPE. The bores measured .504 and the grooves measured .524, with 8 lands and grooves. A cast of the muzzles shows about a .001 inch choke, measuring .503/.523 inches.

I can't begin to understand why the barrel was stamped "12.0" - if this was "mm" that would have been closer to 45 cal than 50 cal. Only thing I can think of is that it should have been stamped "12.8" and the stamper got it wrong.

...... "muzzle cast" ............................................................. "chamber cast"

The barrels are both marked by the maker. Best as I can make out: (its hard to read the hand-cut font)

- the right barrel is hand engraved ...... AD. Jansen Fab ant D'Armes de S.M. le Roi (see pic below)
- the left barrel is hand engraved ........ 27 Rue de la Madeleine, Bruxelles (couldn't get a clear pic)

I have no clue what any of this means, or even if I got all the letters right. If you know better, please let me know. I'd like to keep the info as accurate as possible for my records.

Oh, and there was another surprise, the serial number is "1".

(.416 member)

10/09/13 04:04 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Looks good so far - more photos please!!

Cheers
Tinker

(.300 member)

10/09/13 04:56 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Screws look pretty well untouched (apart from a few small marks on the one on the hinge pin), action edges look sharp, probably never left old Jansons shop. I think its a keeper. Great to see a genuine gun with lots of condition although.....would have been nice to see Holland & Holland on it!

(.333 member)

10/09/13 11:10 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Buckstix, I looked at mine, and I agree with your reading of the barrel stampings. I also have the LR, or whatever, stamp on the receiver flat, with a number 5. I suspect an assembler ID? I also have a 184, and that wierd LR type mark, on the forend hook on the barrel. I also see the 5 on the inside of the Jones lever, facing the triggerguard. I thought I had edited this a second time, maybe can't do that? The # on the barrels is 36??, don't remember right now. That's why I thought this is the serial #, since #1, and #5 would be strange?
Doug

(.400 member)

10/09/13 11:25 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello gungadoug,

I'll bet you also have a "5" on the forend hook base. That's where mine also has a "1".

Do you have a 4 digit number on the bottom of the barrels? That would be similar to my "3716". I don't think that's a serial number since it appears no other place. I'm thinking its the barrel maker's number.

Originally I thought that perhaps the 184 was a serial number, but I find it no where else. Since yours also has this number, it must NOT be a serial number.

I find the no. 1 on all the major parts, like serial numbers are found.

Got any pictures of your gun?

(.333 member)

11/09/13 12:50 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Buckstix,

I'm glad to see that the piece made it to you in good order and that you quickly determined its chamber dimensions, figured you would be on it post haste. With that the "12.0" stamp is a bit of a mystery. If it was the rough bore proof diameter it does seem to be small in comparison to the norm. Going back and looking at the pictures that you had posted at the start of this thread it is hard to believe that the auction stopped where it had; yet another excellent purchase! The English touches, such as the Henry forend latch, and the guns overall condition are superb. Given the time that has elapsed since your surgery I have no doubt that you will be sparking off a few rounds soon to see how it shoots. I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

Regards,

Mark

(.416 member)

11/09/13 02:35 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Really nice rifle, interesting markings.
That "1" on the action flat is not likeky the serial number, much more likely an inspector's mark.

Cheers
Tinker

(.400 member)

11/09/13 07:02 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello Buchseman,

I expected I was going to keep it, so I purchased some Hornady .500 NE brass to be ready. I've got bullets cast, and I will paper-patch them shortly. Now all I need is a starting point for a load. I'm going to use IMR4198 because I've got lots of it.

I wanted to be sure that the Jansen liked its new home, so I purchased a nice Italian Case for it. I think it likes it.

(.375 member)

11/09/13 08:37 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Buckstix

PLease do not think I am trying to teach you to suck eggs, but you MUST use magnum primers with 4198, especially in such a long case. I have had partial ignition? with unburnt powder everywhere and a bullet only just leaving the barrel with a .577 Snider some years ago when using standard primers

Good luck and let us know how it shoots!

TH44

(.400 member)

11/09/13 01:26 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Quote:

Buckstix, I looked at mine, and I agree with your reading of the barrel stampings. I also have the LR, or whatever, stamp on the receiver flat, with a number 5. I suspect an assembler ID? I also have a 184, and that weird LR type mark, on the forend hook on the barrel. I also see the 5 on the inside of the Jones lever, facing the trigger guard. ... The # on the barrels is 3678. That's why I thought this is the serial #, since #1, and #5 would be strange?
Doug

Pictures posted for gungadoug.

(.400 member)

11/09/13 01:32 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello TH44,

I've had good luck using WLR primers in my 577-500 W. Richards. Some recent sources say that the WLR primers are hotter than the F215 primers.

(.333 member)

11/09/13 11:19 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Buckstix, thanks for posting, I never could get that to work! Nice rifle, and a great buy! Is your W Richards a 577-500 #2? What mould do you use for the 366 gr. bullet? Filler?
Doug

(.400 member)

12/09/13 01:32 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello gungadoug,

You are welcome. Yes, the W. Richards is a 577/500 No.2 BPE. Its almost a twin to this rifle, except it does not have rebounding locks and has a wedge forend. (see the link for more info)

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=329134#Post329134

I have an adjustable mold so I can make bullets from about 300g up to 550g. I use 5/8" dia foam Baker Rod, about 1-1/4" long, for filler.

(.400 member)

12/09/13 09:47 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello,

As I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in knowing the translation of the barrel markings.

- the right barrel is hand engraved ...... AD. Jansen Fab ant D'Armes de S.M. le Roi
- the left barrel is hand engraved ........ 27 Rue de la Madeleine, Bruxelles

I'm sure the left barrel marking is the address, but does anyone know what the right barrel marking means? Would either of these markings give a clue as to when this rifle might have been manufactured?

(.416 member)

12/09/13 10:04 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Jansen makes guns for the king

(.400 member)

12/09/13 11:03 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

These are examples of proof marks from my Belgian DR. From bottom of the pic. First one, Crowned ELG, proved by the proof law. Second, Lion PV, for smokeless powder. Third, crowned R, designed for rifled barrels. Fourth, controllers code. Fifth, underlined e, year of production. I will send you a PM with copy of proof marks. /Staffan

(.400 member)

13/09/13 02:14 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello Sville,

Many thanks for emailing a copy of the Belgian Proof Marks. In finding a copy of the Date codes, I see they started using them in 1922. Therefore I know this double was built in 1921 or earlier.

I also found your reference (number 4) says: "Bore diameter in millimeters. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps"

Since this rifle's bore is stamped "12.0", it would indicate it was made in 1895 or later. So ... I guess I can reasonable assume it was made sometime during the span from 1895 up to 1921, a span of 27 years.

If there is any more info out there that could be used to interpret the inspector's markings, maybe the manufacture range could be narrowed further still.

My best guess is late 1890's.

Your thoughts?

(.275 member)

13/09/13 02:37 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Quote:

Hello,

As I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in knowing the translation of the barrel markings.

- the right barrel is hand engraved ...... AD. Jansen Fab ant D'Armes de S.M. le Roi
- the left barrel is hand engraved ........ 27 Rue de la Madeleine, Bruxelles

I'm sure the left barrel marking is the address, but does anyone know what the right barrel marking means? Would either of these markings give a clue as to when this rifle might have been manufactured?

Hi Buckstix,
Well "Fab ant" is more than likely "Fab'ant" as an abbreviation of "Fabricant" e.g. "Maker".
S.M. is an acronym for "Sa Majeste" His Majesty.
The line means " Adolphe Jansen,gun maker to His Majesty the King" (of Belgium).
And "27 rue de la Madeleine" is the address of course.
The funny part is that in Belgium and Switzerland, the address is usually reversed from the French wording, so it should normally be written: "Rue de la Madeleine, 27" in the Belgian way.
However, that's pretty subtle.

There are certainly no clues about Manufacturing, but the proof marks and MASSART point to the Liege immediate area.

The retail address is now an hotel.

I am looking forward to the shooting report!

Best regards,
WC-

(.400 member)

13/09/13 06:42 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello WildCattle,

Thank you for the detailed translation. I hope to get to the range this weekend to breath new life into this 100+ year old rifle.

As an update, Sville just pointed out that according to Littlegun, Jansen was at this address only until 1908/1909. I originally missed that. This added information now narrows the possible manufacturing span to 15 years, being from 1895 to 1909. If we could determine the dates of the inspector's markings, perhaps we can get closer.

(.333 member)

13/09/13 10:10 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

If Massart took out his patent in 1902, would that narrow it further to 02-09? Since mine does not have the Massart stamp, and is just a few numbers before yours, using the numbering on the barrel, I wonder if mine was made just prior to 1902, and yours shortly after 02?
Doug

(.400 member)

14/09/13 12:36 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello gungadoug,

I'm not sure. He may have made my barrels before his patented joining method and just stamped his name as the maker. If I knew what barrel joining features were in his patent, and if my barrels had those joining features, I could tell if the 1902 date would apply.

(.275 member)

14/09/13 02:37 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Correct Buckstix, Massart was probably in business much before he applied for a patent.
Per the "qui est qui" there was a A. Massart in Liege in 1886 and then in Herstal (next door) in 1892 who applied for patents at those dates. Plus the one in Henne-lez-Chaudfontaine who applied for the 1902 patent. They certainly could be one and the same.
I still believe that your double is circa 1890-1900.
Best regards,
WC-

(.400 member)

14/09/13 03:24 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello WildCattle,

Thank you for that info.

I'll stick withe the wider range of 1895 - 1909, based on:

"Bore diameter in millimeters. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps"

"Jansen was at this address only until 1908/1909"

Any suggestions as to what the "184" and "LJ" and "LL" stamps could mean?

(.400 member)

15/09/13 05:11 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

"LJ" is most certainly one of the Janssens that put the rifle together. /Staffan

(.400 member)

15/09/13 05:12 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Tried to find LJ in the list of craftmens of Belgium but didn�t find anything.

(.400 member)

15/09/13 08:08 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello Sville,

I found a reference for the "LL" as being Leon Leclercq. Would you know anything about when he was in business?

You mentioned "LJ" perhaps being Louis Jeusette, do you know of any dates for him?

As for the "184" stamping, I have found another gun with a "184" and one with a "183". Is it possible that this is some kind of date code? I'm thinking its not a production serial number or barrel serial number because there should not be any duplicate numbers.

(.400 member)

18/09/13 07:02 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Quote:

Good luck and let us know how it shoots!
-TH44

Quote:

I am looking forward to the shooting report!
-WildCattle

Hello TH44, Hello WildCattle,

Well, I just got back from the range. I'm still as "Giddy" as a school girl. I kinda' feel sorry for all those that saw this little beauty on the internet auction, and didn't bid on it. (well, not really, cause then "I" wouldn't have gotten it)

The balance was great, the recoil was modest, and the sights were clear and crisp because the rear sight is mounted more forward on the rib than all of my other doubles. My old eyes really liked that.

I went to the range with 2 loads ... both were loaded with 52.0g IMR4198 - one with 390g Paper-patch bullets, and the other with 350g flat-nose gas-checked bullets.

I shot the PP bullets first.... HERE IS WHAT THEY DID...... just a fuzz over a 1-1/4" group .... WOW ! ! WOW ! !

.
.
.
.
.
.

The gas-checked 350's did pretty good also .... They shot a bit higher and just a tad over a 2" group.

.
.
.

I am so glad I got this one. So far its my best shooter. I'm ready for hunting, and this one is going with me for sure.

(.333 member)

18/09/13 10:47 PM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Heck, I'd say with the PP, you're done with load development!
Doug

(.400 member)

19/09/13 12:20 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello gungadoug,

Yep, that's what I was thinking. But I'll try again just to make sure its repeatable. And then try it at 100 yds also. Then, maybe I'll make a slight sight adjustment to the right.

(.416 member)

19/09/13 02:25 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

That looks great!

I'd try a half grain more and less to see how it goes.

Cheers
Tinker

(.400 member)

19/09/13 05:55 AM

Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info

Hello tinker,

Yes, that's my plan. I might try a tad lighter bullet just to see if it reduces recoil.

NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact

Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved