| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 31/05/12 05:58 AM |
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New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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My first post
After many months of deliberation I have just placed an order for a new Holland & Holland Royal Double in .500NE. This will be my first double and I intend to reload for it, as I do with my bolt-action guns. I accept that reloading for a double is not that straightforward due to regulation for a specific factory loading.
Hollands have expressed a preference for Norma ammunition, but will use Hornady upon request. They consider Norma to be the best option due to availability and consistency. Interestingly Heym have a different view. They say that Hornady is the most consistent factory ammo in .500NE and achieves a little more velocity than Norma.
Of course I understand that one of the great benefits of the NE cartridges is low pressure. Having said that I would like to achieve the original design velocity of 2150fps. I'm not sure either of these factory loads will achieve that. After velocity the most important objective is that I can reload with my choice of premium bullet - Swift A-Frame or North Fork solids - and have the gun shoot where it should. Reloading for a double is always going to be a little tricky, but I want to make sure that I choose the right ammo to regulate with that gives me the best chance of success.
Any suggestions or comments most welcome
| Ben |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/05/12 06:26 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Good news! Congratulations! I must recommend Graeme Write's book "Shooting the British Double Rifle" as it has many load suggestions.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 31/05/12 06:29 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Aiming for a velocity IMHO is the wrong way because if the factory ammo doesn't do it, then how will they regulate it.
Also, if they do regulate it and you can't replicate it with hand loads, where does that leave you ?
100fps makes no difference. go for ease of regulation over velocity - IMHO.
What is more readily available at your location ?
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 31/05/12 06:35 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Ben, I have Wright's book, but not read it yet. I'll make a start soon.
500Nitro, Norma is most definitely more widely available in Europe, but it is loaded with Woddleigh softs or solids. The soft isn't a bad bullet, but there are better. The solid is not that great, especially when compared to flat points like the North Fork offering.
Maybe it doesn't matter what I ask them to regulate with if I will be handloading anyway? That's what I'm really trying to find out.
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 31/05/12 06:47 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Quote:
Ben, I have Wright's book, but not read it yet. I'll make a start soon.
500Nitro, Norma is most definitely more widely available in Europe, but it is loaded with Woddleigh softs or solids. The soft isn't a bad bullet, but there are better. The solid is not that great, especially when compared to flat points like the North Fork offering.
Maybe it doesn't matter what I ask them to regulate with if I will be handloading anyway? That's what I'm really trying to find out.
Personally I would go with the Norma factory ammo with the Woodleigh bullets for your rifles regulation.
I think both the Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP and FMJ will do whatever you need your .500 to do. I disagree there are better bullets for a .500 double rifle. I certainly wouldn't worry about needing a flat nosed FMJ bullet design for your .500 .
I would not use a A-frame bullet in any case in your DR. The solid middle shank of a A-Square bullet is not advisable in a thin barrelled double rifle in my opinion. At least I wouldn't be using one in mine.
Also I wouldn't use a "solid" bullet of any type unless it had driving bands for the same reasons as expressed regarding A-Squares.
Maximus, congratulations on your new and first double rifle. And a Holland & Holland is not a bad first one either!
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 31/05/12 06:53 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Maximus
I'm with NitroX, go with Norma.
I'm also with NitroX re Woodleighs, yes I am biased
but they work well.
The Swift a Frame is a superb bullet and one we used to compare to Woodleigh's when testing but as John said above, not in a DR because of the shank.
If you need a Flat Nose, you could always use Woodleigh Hydro bullets.
But, from what I have seen my 500 Do on very large Water Buffalo at 2000 and 2100, it doesn't matter.
Just had a thought re Hornady - I gather their are some issues with the Hornady bullets so another reason to go Norma.
Hope that helps.
| Yochanan |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/05/12 07:55 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Why make things so difficult. I would let Holland and Holland regulate the rifle for Norma ammo, at same time, I would also stockpile 3 to 4 cases of ammo (1/3 FMJ and 2/3 Soft point). Costs relatively little compared the double rifle. Always nice to have enough ammo so you don't have to worry.
I am a great fan of Woodleigh - works very well for the intended beasts.
Cheers
Johan
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 31/05/12 08:10 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Yochanan. You mean why reload? I enjoy it.
Has anyone used Hornady ammo in their .500NE?
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 31/05/12 08:14 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Max
I think most of us are like you, we reload,
especially since we have Woodleigh and ADI here.
| Yochanan |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/05/12 08:29 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Maximus,
I'm also reloading. I suggest you stockpile the bullets that your rifle is regulated with. For my only "big bore" I got a pile of Woodleigh bullets to cover a lot of shooting - comforting to know I won't run out of bullets any time soon.
An acquaintance used some in his Heym 450/400-3 NE. Now it's hard to get the Hornady ammo in Sweden, second time of no delivery and the gunshop doesn't know when next supply will arrive - time to crank the reloading press.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/05/12 08:35 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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I've used the Hornady factory ammo (570gn soft points) and it regulated well but shot low - I had to use the 75yd sight for 50yds.
My reloads of 570gn Woodleighs (both soft pont and solids) regulate well - I use Graeme's suggested loadings.
I also have loaded 440gn Woodleighs with the same powder load as the 570gns (as a "reduced load" but I can't feel a difference to be honest) and, once again, good regulation, and same POI as the 570gns out to 50yards. I can use the correct sight settings with my reloads (well have only tried 50yds).
I have also used 570gn soft point Bertrams, same load as above, same results. I'm going to try some banded monolithics (probably the Woodleigh "hydraulically stabilised") one day to see.
My double is a Merkel BTW.
| MaxGera |
| (.275 member) |
| 31/05/12 10:51 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Quote:
My first post
After many months of deliberation I have just placed an order for a new Holland & Holland Royal Double in .500NE. This will be my first double and I intend to reload for it, as I do with my bolt-action guns. I accept that reloading for a double is not that straightforward due to regulation for a specific factory loading.
Any suggestions or comments most welcome
Sure, first and most importantly, give them my address for delivery.
Max
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/05/12 11:31 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Quote:Quote:
My first post
After many months of deliberation I have just placed an order for a new Holland & Holland Royal Double in .500NE. This will be my first double and I intend to reload for it, as I do with my bolt-action guns. I accept that reloading for a double is not that straightforward due to regulation for a specific factory loading.
Any suggestions or comments most welcome
Sure, first and most importantly, give them my address for delivery.
Max
Might be in for a shock if it's COD.
| Ben |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/05/12 01:34 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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I have used Hornady softs out of my Merky .500NE, and although they did the job on the buffalo, they didn't hold together like the Woodleighs the other lads were using. The Woodleighs mushroomed nicely, and the Hornady bullets broke-up a bit.
Lots of contented Woodleigh users here... I load my own, too. I got given the Hornady bullets as a very kind gesture when I bought my rifle.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 31/05/12 05:28 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Maximus,
Don't get me wrong, a A-frame is a fine bullet, I am going to work up loads for them in 8x68S and possibly my .404 bolt actioned rifles. I do have Woodleighs as well for .404 and they are cheaper and will work just about as well anyway.
You could try some of the various designs of banded solids/flat points etc in your .500 when you get it. Eg Woodleigh Hydro, GS Custom from South Africa, others from the USA - I forget their names.
But I wouldn't get the regulation made up with that sort of ammo. Try it after you get it and enjoy your handloading to see it will shoot in your rifle.
| Mike_Bailey |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/05/12 06:34 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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What did I say to you Maximus, NORMA !!
I´ve shot a few Woodleighs in both of mine and they are great, solids and soft to same POI and they work in game, what else do you want ? unless you plan a career change to elephant cropper I´ll bet you don´t have a Woodleigh bullet failure (assuming you put it in the right place, not a tree first 
and congrats, Maxgera, LOL, best
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 31/05/12 07:19 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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OK, maybe I've been a little unkind about Woodleighs. Mike you are right, I don't want anything else but good performance in game, including with handloads.
Another point to consider is that I believe the Norma cases are nickel plated. I have never reloaded nickel plated cases although there appears to be some disagreement over whether they are better or worse than brass for reloading purposes.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 01/06/12 01:37 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Congratulations on your new rifle. Jealous of course but cannot wait to see it.
It has been a long time since I used Swift A Frame at low velocity and I was not happy with the performance. Perhaps they have changed in the intervening time but I will never know as I will not experiment again with them. They are great at moderate and high velocity but not so much when they start at around 2100 fps.
I am a big fan of Woodleighs and since you are reloading I would go with the nickel cases. They go through dies fine and also seem to stay cleaner in your pocket, belt or wherever. Nickel cases just seem, to me, to always load smoother than brass, particularly if they have been carried for awhile. Also easier to find in the grass if you decide to pick them up.
Why not just load up around 40 rounds yourself and send them to Holland to regulate your rifle? That way you know that you can always duplicate it. Chances of finding 500 NE loaded ammo of any type in a hunting area are nil anyway.
Again congratulations.
| DvK |
| (.224 member) |
| 03/06/12 12:44 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Maximus - if I understand this correctly you are having af Royal build by H&H, and you want to use your own handloads in the rifle when its is done?
Why on earth don't you then have it regulated with exatly tha load that you in the future want to use in the rifle? Otherwise you will struggle to find a handload combo which can dubblycate the factory ammo!
Of course the more exotic you make your load, the lesser resale value, but I guess that you are not having af Royal buildt to sell it in a few year? And if you stay with "conservative" bullets like woodleighs it can't be that bad?
D93
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 03/06/12 01:02 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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D93, I have considered this option. However, there are problems. Generally handloads have to be worked at and without a rifle to do so with all I can do is give them an untested load. This probably would result in either an under velocity or inaccurate load.
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 03/06/12 01:28 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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D93, I have considered this option. However, there are problems. Generally handloads have to be worked at and without a rifle to do so with all I can do is give them an untested load. This probably would result in either an under velocity or inaccurate load.
No, you are incorrect here. If you pick a load from a reputable reloading manual than the rifle will be regulated to that load and shoot great. It is only when you try and match a load to an already regulated rifle that you have to tweak and experiment.
Your only concern may be velocity but a good manual is pretty accurate if followed.
| DvK |
| (.224 member) |
| 03/06/12 01:31 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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And you should be able to have you load proofed and velocity measured in testbarrels before you settle for the final load.
I would go that way if I were in your shoes.
Good luck on the project and please keep us posted.
D93
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 03/06/12 01:38 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Quote:
No, you are incorrect here. If you pick a load from a reputable reloading manual than the rifle will be regulated to that load and shoot great. It is only when you try and match a load to an already regulated rifle that you have to tweak and experiment.
Your only concern may be velocity but a good manual is pretty accurate if followed.
Interesting!
| Bill_Cooley |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/06/12 12:00 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Well congratulations on your new rifle. I can understand your thinking about wanting to be able to reload for your new rifle. The big problem is you don’t know what any load will do until you shoot it in YOUR rifle. I would have it regulated with the Norma ammo. You can always duplicate that load if you have a chronograph. You can’t do a good job of reloading for a double if you don’t have one. When you get your rifle shoot some of the same ammo it was regulated for and record the velocity (I would try to get some from the same lot) H&H should be able to tell you what lot of ammo was used. I would also try to by a small supply of this ammo. This way if you have any problems with your reloads you will have enough ammo to shoot. You didn’t share how long you ordered the barrels on your new rifle that can have a Bering on how fast it will shoot a given load. Next don’t get to hung up on a fixed velocity any 570 gr bullet at 2000+ fps will do the job.
Good luck
Bill
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 04/06/12 05:20 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Thanks Bill. Good advice.
Barrels are 24" long. I like the idea of a compact but potent package. Still not decided on sling swivels though (see other thread "slings on doubles").
Regulating with Norma does seem the most sensible choice, although Hornady is the only brass I can find available. I'm not sure this should really matter, but in terms of exactly duplicating the regulation load it complicates matters slightly.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 04/06/12 05:30 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Maximus
I couldn't find the "Slings on Doubles" thread, however
this is my view.
Sling studs fitted but carry the sling in your pack or bumbag.
At least you have the option if ever you need to use a sling.
Also, having a sling with you, if you ever get into a dicey situation where you have to carry someone, being able to sling the rifle makes a hell of a difference.
And if all else fails, slings always makes good tourniquets !!!
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 04/06/12 06:03 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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Ah sorry 500Nitro. The "Slings on doubles" thread is on AR.
Just found out Federal make 3 loads for the .500NE - Swift A-Frame, Barnes TSX and Barnes Banded Solid. Even more interesting!
| DvK |
| (.224 member) |
| 05/06/12 01:52 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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@Bill - which one came first the hen or the egg? You can build your load for your gun, or you can (within limits of standard pressure etc.) build you gun for you load. There isn't any differencen in having your new double regulated over you own ammunition - if the ammo is out of the box the has the stamp Norma, Hornady, Federal or Handmade of Maximus have absolutly no difference for the gunmaker!
@Maximus - personatly I wouldn't care for making exotic ammunition for a 500 NE. The cartdriges mades is repurtation from "woodleigh" like bullets. If I had the oppotunity to have at double buildt I would have it regulated with Kynoch. I could allways then use my sparetime - or long winther evenings - to dublicate the regulation load by handloading. But since you would like some more modern bullets for your gun, I still would make the ammunition that the gun should be regulated with myself.
| Bill_Cooley |
| (.300 member) |
| 06/06/12 12:11 PM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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MAXIMUS,
I would get the sling eyes installed. There are many times when that sling can be your friend. Much easier to do it now than add them latter.
I understand your dilemma with the ammo. I really don’t think the Hornady brass will make that big of a difference. Just a follow up on what I said before. If you go with Norma you will want to by some of the same lot as it was regulated with. Just by a little extra and go shoot some practice. Now you have some nice nickel once fired brass.
You may find the Federal will shoot to the same point of aim. You can allwas by the bullets to load your self.
Bill
@D93
You are absolutely right H&H can use what ever load the customer may wish. I think the use of a non “factory” load would make the rifle much harder to sell. One other consideration would be what happens when your rifle shows up but no ammo? Will it shoot factory loads to the same point of aim?
Until you shoot a load in a given rifle you don’t know what the velocity is going to be. This is why you must have a good chronograph to duplicate that load. The loads in the reloding books are just good guesses. There are to maney vareations in powder and rifles to garentee a given velosity for a listed load.
Bill
| Maximus |
| (.275 member) |
| 08/06/12 01:17 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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I have decided to go with Norma PH ammo to regulate with. The case for it is too compelling - H&H strongly recommend it, as does one of its customers here, Mike Bailey. It's widely available plus the soft point Woodleigh is an excellent bullet. Not quite as confident about the solid (would prefer a flat nose) but there's time to look at alternatives.
Thanks to all for the advice
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/06/12 10:41 AM |
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Re: New .500NE double - what ammo to regulate with?
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In my Merkel, both the 570gn soft point and 570gn FMJ Woodleighs shoot the same, and regulate the same.