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So from that I would again assume like the other 416's that it is too big for medium game and too small for big game. Just my opinion of course.

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Curious as to what you base your obviously flawed perception on.

You should read the article recently written in this months issue of RIFLE SHOOTER by a gentleman (Ganyana)--who has been in on culls of over 30,000 elephant in his lifetime..and worked 20 plus years for the parks department in Africa...while he promotes the .375 as being an o.k. caliber..he also stated that for larger game--it is a definite step up on shock to the animal..and in his opinion, one of the best choices one could make for a one-rifle safari...with regards to any of the .416's

Secondly, those that do spend a lot of time in the field, PH's, are drifting the way of the 416 in several of the camps I have been too in Africa..guessing, based on the fact they are in the field every day..that might speak of reason and experience as well..

Then there is the PH (Lynn) I visited with from Botswana, who stated the perfect caliber for "their" larger than normal elephant, in his opinion, needs a caliber or 40 or bigger with a velocity of 2300 or more to do the job from any angle..again, his opinion, but with 100 plus under his belt..will heed his words of advice..

Finally there is myself who has shot everything from a duiker to elephant..none requiring a follow up shot.total with a 416 Rem alone is over 30 animals...even though usually pay the insurnace just the same, which I would do if I was shooting a 338 or .577...while I too, have used a .375, will never go back to one after the 416...as stated by my experience as well as all the "experts" I have visited with, the proof is in the pudding, or in this case, the shooting..

Ripp

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Haven't taken it anywhere but the range so can't comment on game performance, but, like I said, it's a Rigby in a double.

Gary

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I would again assume like the other 416's that it is too big for medium game and too small for big game. Just my opinion of course.

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No the stopping effect will not be that same between the big bores and the 416's unless the brain or spine is hit. Yes the big bores have proven over the last century and more that they are more reliable for stopping elephant charges. Not all elephant charges are stopped by a brain or spine shot, I'd venture that most are stopped with a missed brain shot. And the stopping reliability goes up as calibre, bullet weight and energy go up, as proven repeatedly for more than a century. An opinion shared by Nychens, Taylor, Harlan, Thomson, almost every experienced elephant hunter who has voiced an opinion, even including Ganyana. JPK

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JPK

Think this has gone off on a different direction than I had planned after yesterday's post..I was more so, comparing the .375 vs the .416-as in .416 Remington or Rigby which based on my info and reloads are tooling along at around 2400 to 2450fps..so, ME is around 51 to 5200 ft.lbs..--and yes, per your info..every PH I have talked too, read about, etc.. all state the .416 is decidedly better than the .375 in terms of KO power...this, along with the availability of bullets for the reloader, in my opinion, makes it a better overall gun when one is hunting in a dangerous game area..which is also a critical component of this oveall equation..

As to penetration, based on my experience and what I have read, the .416 traveling at the speeds listed above will, in most cases pentrate as well as even the 458 Lott-- with much less recoil..

Per the article I read by Ganyana and actually in Boddington's new book, SAFARI RIFLES II, as well as 2 PH's I have visited with in Africa on this topic, it is suggestd that some of the Nitro cartridges do not have enough velocity to penetrate the larger bulls skulls from any angle, with the key word there being "any"...

In the article by Ganyana, he stated they had a 500 Nitro 3" with an 18" barrel for "close" work that failed to penetrate on numerous occassions and doubted a 24" barrel would have made much more of a difference..Boddington suggests similar in his book, that several of the older calibers work well in 99% of the situations, but, as you suggested, its the 1% that get ya...

I watched a bull take not one but two, dead on shots into the head with a .577. bull was coming in, head down, while it stopped him, it certainly did not drop him...again, shot placement, imo, is the key, especially on a frontal brain shot..

While I don't have 1/10th the experience you do on elephant,hopefully one day I will, but on the one I did shoot with my .416, tuskless cow in Zim, she was coming in at a slightly quartering angle, shot hit above her right eye and exited behind her left ear..as far as I know, its still going..

As often stated, you want to get a good debate going, start disucssing calibers...personally, I like them all and own most of them including several in .375 H&H's, 416's, and 458's along with one .470 double..personally , when I go back, I am taking the .470 Nitro and .416 Rem..bolt gun..has worked for past 4 trips, figure it will work again...if not, its been a hell of a ride..

Ripp

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I can't think why the 500/416 was developed, when the 500/450 is more versatile - at least on paper. The 500/416 will only be chambered in a DR, so its flat-shooting credentials are kind of moot. Leave that for .375 H&H double rifles.

I can shoot 350-400-480-500 grain projectiles all at about 2150 fps in my 500/450 double for a variedly of game.

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To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.

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To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.

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Does he like shooting his (few) clients animals for them?

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24" - 18" = 6" .... 6" x 25fps/inch = 150fps.

This is a TREMENDOUS, HUGE difference. An 18" barreled NE is an abortion from the ballistic perspective alone. I won't do the math, but that 500 or 577 or whatever didn't have the umph to push that bullet far into the head of any elephant.

JPK

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And that is my point when pointing out that the actual velocity of factory loaded .416 REms are at around 2450 fps--which is huge compared to 2300 in these lower velocity cartidges..

I agree with most of what you said-- but don't with regards to the .375, especially when hunting in dagerous game areas..imo,a good way to get you butt stomped...there is a noticable effect on game when shooting a 416 compared to a 375...same can be said when comparing the 416 to a 458 Lott..one argument however is MANY do not shoot a .458 Lott well..where as not so much a point with the .416--typically if you can shoot a 375 well, you can a 416 also..and depending on how/what you use for reloads, 416 to 200 yards is just as versatile..95% of your shots will be much less than that...actually a mere fraction of that..and when it comes to elephant--a tenth of that..

Another point I feel you basically confirm in your last explanation, is velocity is needed to penentrate, again, from ALL angles...my point is 2150 fps does not give you that from all angles..which may or may never be necessary..but since we are discussing penetration and the killing power of said cartridges, it is one thing to be considered..

Agree with you assessment, we all use what we feel comfortable with..you, the 458--me, the 416...and we are both happy so we should stick with them I guess..enjoyed the discussion...can usually learn quite a bit on this site..perfect point is this thread...thanks..

Now, I need to see if I can catch a plane to Minneapolis...Happy Holidays..

Ripp

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To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.

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Does he like shooting his (few) clients animals for them?

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If he doesn't , his PH friends do as that was the jest of the article I read---that more and more PH's were finishing animals for their clients.. basically, from what I was reading,,,most are not prepared with many of the shots presented in Africa on dangerous game..sad commentary IMO, but trurer than most will admit per what I have heard from PH's .

Ripp

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To paraphrase Ganyana´s own words in the article - the .400s are the dividing line between hunting rifles and stopping rifles.... A hunting client does not need a stopping rifle.

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Does he like shooting his (few) clients animals for them?

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If he doesn't , his PH friends do as that was the jest of the article I read---that more and more PH's were finishing animals for their clients.. basically, from what I was reading,,,most are not prepared with many of the shots presented in Africa on dangerous game..sad commentary IMO, but trurer than most will admit per what I have heard from PH's .

Ripp

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I wouldn't want to hire a PH with that sort of attitude. I'm there to hunt myself and if that means going into thick bush because it is necessary, then I don't want an egotistical PH telling me to stay behind or whatever his attitude is.



Agree totally, and fortunately have never had that experience--but see it on TV and read about it quite a bit...guess that is one thing you should sort out before you start the show..

Ripp

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As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

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As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

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I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.

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JPk.

As to the 500/416..no, I am not sold on i, just checking and like different calibers...in reality, I really like the 500 Nitro 3"---but not so sure it will do anything more than my .470 double I already have..I realize it shoots a bit heavier bullet --but not sure it would give any more penetration than the .470..

As to the amount needed for elephant..again, I am only going off of what I have been told by Lynn, the PH in Zim who has quite a bit of experience in Botswana --who stated on more than one occassion while I was there this year..that he has seen several instances where the 2150 was not enough to penetrate the bigger bulls...then I read it again in Boddingtons new book--and finally the article I read last week..between Lynn the PH and Boddington, there is close to 200 elephants shot..so figured they had some knowledge I could learn from..

As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

Curious question though--Have you hunted the big bulls in Botswana?? and if so, what was your experience there?? Lynn the PH, stated he has never had penetration problems in Zim..but has several times in Botswana..I never have...and this could be again, much to do about nothing,, but as I stated earlier, they have the experience with them, I do not, so will probably go with what they suggest..

Take Care

Ripp

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JPk.

Ripp,

I have not hunted Botswana bulls, but PH's I know have. They find no difference between big bulls any where. And Botswana bulls are not the largest, I've been told, the largest come from Kruger/Ghona Rhe Zhou. Perhaps the best example is Ivan Carter, who hunts quite a bit in Botswana and uses a 450NE 3 1/4" Heym. Ivan is still in love with his rifle; that would not be the case if it didn't provide the penetration required, or the stopping power required. Ivan likes to get close, and for non target bulls, has been know to approach until he can wrap the bull with the butt of his rifle. That is a man with (over?) confidence in his read of elephants and in his rifle too, eh?

Rather than a couple of guys with only the experience of a couple of hundred eles, matched in aggragate here on this forum, I'd rather rely on Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, who between them killed roughly 9,000 elephants. They shot all manner of elephants from the huge Gona-Rhe-Zhou bulls to cows to youngsters. They used the 458wm with factory loads to do this. Neither reports any problem, ever, with their 458wm load performance. They used Winchester factory loads, which are beat by the 450NE.

If it were my choice, I'd stick with the 470 and use the savings on another bull quota. If the itch was just too bad, I'd go and get the 500.

BTW, for any of the frontal brain shots I've made or tried, if you were to expand the penetration required to brain the elephant by 50%, the results would still be the same, full penetration of the brain cavity and into the neck. For side Brain shots, I don't know since every one - except one that failed to penetrate at all - exited, but one.

JPK

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Man--have to admit---love this thread...

Most of the people you mentioned, I have actually met---Harland lives 2 blocks down from Lynn the PH I discussed--Ivan and I hung around a bit together last year at the SCI show in Reno...by the way, I had to laugh a bit on the Boddington Elephant DVD..as in how Ivan got that gun..per Ivan to my very ears, that was a GIFT by one of his clients as a "tip"...not that is a heck of a gift..



Agree with what you stated in regards to penetration, have not done the tests myself, but by what I have read, it is suggested the 450 and 465 actually do a bit better job than the 470 as to penetration...believe Taylor states that as well..

Have not made up my mind on anything..checking out my options...do agree with the post above however, not to beat a dead horse, but could not sleep last night, so at 2AM was reading Taylors book..he did state in his opinion, for thick or thin skinned game, he can find no better choice than the .416....so he does add some credence to the whole equation..personally one of my .416's has followed me on 4 trips so far..and God willing, it will come along again..BUT, if I am out soley for elephant..will keep looking for other options...more guns is good..
However do agree, makes more sense to take the $$ and buy another tag..



Thank you for your info...as I mentioned, you have shot more elephants than anyone I know other than Boddington, Carter, etc...so really do appreciate your input and advice..

Merry Christmas to all

Ripp

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As I think about this, and after watching the 2 dvd's on Boddington on Elephants, it is quite clear, it really does not matter it you shoot them with a .275 or a 600 Nitro..if you don't hit the brain, they ain't going down ...there are several shots in the DVD series I watched where more than one shot was fired on charging elephant..just as often as not, they did not go down if not hit correctly...

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I'm not an expert, but disagree with that statement in bold. They may not die, but may well drop stunned even unconscious.

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John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

I do have Buzz's dvd, and it is awesome...but, also have Carter/Boddington's--numerous hits to the skull with BIG BORES...no brain..no ground stain..

Ripp

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John,

Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

Ripp

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Exactly! Again, when someone misses the mark, 42 thousandths of an inch in bullet diameter is not going to impress a 10,000 lb. animal one bit. Give me at least 400 grains, good velocity, and a damned tough bullet.

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Der Jaeger,

You are wrong. More than a century of history proves it. I refer you again to Buzz Charlton's DVD. What you say just isn't true. If it were than the fellows who made their living and risked their lives would have been using the 416 Rigby. But, until recently, the Rigby was never very popular in africa, nowhere near as popular as the the 450 NE's alone.

.042", about 10% more energy and about 25% more bullet weight. Not insignificant.

JPK

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Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more..what I should have said was it isn't going to kill them..it may turn them or stop a charge or temporarily tip them over, but you had best get right after it as they will get back up, with hell coming for breakfast ..

I do have Buzz's dvd, and it is awesome...but, also have Carter/Boddington's--numerous hits to the skull with BIG BORES...no brain..no ground stain..

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Mere money CAN buy elephant hunts as you guys know. A guy does not have to be a shooter or even a hunter to hunt elephants. You guys think and put the effort into something that others may merely "pay for".

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JPK, 18 is an impressive number.

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So far 85% for .450+ guns. Counting the two guys that are stepping up as .450+'ers.

What do these fellows recommend their clients bring with them?

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Ian Gibson 458win
Stu Taylor 458win
Mike Taylor 458lott
Andy Hunter 416rem
Charlie Stanton 375H&H
Matt Stanton 470NE
Bill Lemon 460W
Johnathan Taylor 458Win
Rex Hoets 500J
John Sharp 470NE
John Greef 470NE

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+++


Lynn -- 416 Rem.
Mark--.416 Rem

Both were PH's for Chifuti at Chewore North when I was there this past summer..sorry, don't remember their last names..

As I mentioned to John, Ian Gibson is staying with me for a few days at the end of Jan. '09..will get his take on this subject and let you know ... as previously stated, he does carry a .458Win --very well broken in..also has a .416 setting around for his clients..I know as I left him 4 boxes of ammo when I left...

I agree with Huvius,,think there can be big difference between what you carry as a client versus what you carry as a PH---think a lot of the people on this site are NOT the norm..at least from what I have seen in camp..quite frankly, many can not shoot, period..let along shoot a true big bore..therein lies one of the problems...and again, bullet placement and bullet performance is everything, especially attempting to brain a elephant..

My first trip to Africa, I, unfortunatley relied on info from some who had never gone to Africa or with little experience...will NEVER make that mistake again..so I am very cautious who I accept advice from anymore..need to see more than words before I am a believer..and even then, keep the questions going...

As JPK and others have stated..I do rufuse to be one of those the PH has to shoot for..that is why I am there and why I shoot a ton before I go..I want the total experience..and if shit hits the fan, I want that too...


Ripp

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Ripp,

Like I was saying having shot more elephants than Boddingtoon has is no real accomplishment as I understand things. As I recall Boddingtons own writing, he had only shot one elephant until recently. He was nutso for buff hunting and concentrated on that.

I have taken eighteen now. But that isn't as many as some of the other members here, including, I think, some who have posted on this thread. IIRC, ten of the elephant I have shot went down to brain shots, at least one was a second shot and the ele did not drop at the first. The other eight, well, lets just say that if at first you don't succeed, try , try again.

I now shoot 500gr Woodleighs for the first shot, at 2145fps, and 450 North Fork flat nose solids in the second barrel, at about 2200fps. Ballistics essentially identicle to those of the 450NE's or the Federal 470 loads.

JPK

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Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.

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Relying on Der Jaeger's count in Boddington's new book, 75 for =/>450+, 27 for <450. Not quite three to one. I'm suprised.

JPK

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JPK, just curious.......

Did you think the ratio would've been higher or lower than 3:1 in favor of the .450 and over calibers? It does seem to favor the big bores by a considerable margin. There are other surveys in the book regarding the PH's recommendation for light plains game, heavy plains game, thick skinned dangerous game (stated previously), and the PH's recommendations to clients for a one gun, two gun, or three gun safari. It's very interesting reading especially for myself having never been to Africa yet. 2010 can't come quick enough

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Mmm...

Der Jäger, bringen Sie sein .340 mit genug Patronen und Sie sind fertig für alles in Südwest Afrika!!

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Ich zustimme! Er ist eins meiner Lieblingsgewehre. Es sein ein guter begleiter bis das .416 auf meiner Jagd

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Es sein ein guter begleiter bis das .416 auf meiner Jagd

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To what extent can the human nervous system really get used to heavy recoil when shooting at inanimate targets? Maybe some individuals can beat their nerves into submission but I'm more inclined to think nerves have their own agenda, and may behave better when facing dangerous game if not tortured beforehand. Dry-firing snapcaps, shooting subloads, sporting clays with a similarly setup shotgun or occasional shooting full-power loads at a charging paper targets - yes, I think these are good ideas. Trying to peen ourselves into shape by continually shooting a full-house .500NE at stationary paper targets - maybe not.

That I have finally opted for a 450/.400 is partly because that's what I could get new without waiting two years - and partly on advice from experienced hunters.

One NT PH said he was alarmed that many clients using big rifles shoot all right with the first shot but are lucky to hit an escaping animal with the second. He was getting a big calibre for himself on the assumption perhaps that we shoot them better when we only shoot in an emergency.

If you hear that I end up on the horns of a dilemna, you'll have the last laugh.

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Also, there is a big difference between choosing a gun to take along when hunting with an experienced PH with a stopping rifle and being the PH with the stopping rifle. No matter what the client is using, there are always immediate followups from the PH if needed - not so if you are the PH or on your own such as Taylor was most of the time.

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I don't entirely agree with this. The PH is not always in a osition to stop a charge or save your bacon. And even the very best in any endevour have off days. The client ought to be prepared for the worst, imo.

JPK

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The reason for this statement is after watching the DVD on elephant hunting with Carter and Boddington..some have no interest in hanging around in the event the shit hits the fan..my wife laughed out loud..when, I believe Mike was hunting with a US client..a cow charged and he was running away before she had 2 steps toward them..so, it really doesn't matter what they are shooting..they are too damn scared to hang around...Ian Gibson told me while I was there, that one of his lion clients would not even come out of the blind until Ian had walked over to the dead lion and poked him with his rifle to make sure he was dead...

While I agree with you in that I prefer to cover my own rear-end.and you probably do as well.you have to realize that is not the norm in the world of the PH...a very high percentage are novice hunters at best and have NO interest in facing a charge..oh, they do around the campfire at night...but in the woods with a nasty heading their way, different story.. .

Ripp

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Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK

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As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp

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Very good advice, JPK. Thank you! I agree on all counts.

I'm enjoying the planning stages of my first safari especially deciding which two rifles I'm bringing. I'm going to be berated by many, but, for good or bad, I like Weatherby rifles and their calibers. I don't want to argue the point, it's simply what I like. I have the following rifles:

.257 Wby
.270 Wby
.300 Wby (2)
.340 Wby
.416 Wby
.375 H&H in a Mauser M03
.338 Win Mag Remington XCR with a custom McMillan stock

I refinished all of my Weatherbys with an oil finish and a London Best Orange pad.

I plan to pair my .416 with either the .338, .340, or a .300. My safari is planned with Jan Oelofse in Namibia for June 2010 and my PH will be Josephus. I'm always open to other opinions on the right rifle pairing. I can handle long range if the situation calls for it having taken whitetail at a bit over 400 yards, a Pronghorn at around 300 (post in Hunting, "My First pronghorn) and a Mule deer and Elk at decent ranges too. I've also taken many at less than 100 yards. My most recent is a Boar taken in Pennsylvania (post in Hunting, "Pennsylvania Boar Hunt").

I guess my point is, like you, I do prefer big rifles and, even though my hunt will primarily include large plains game, my .416 is definitely making the trip. I woill also buy a double rifle but have no idea which one yet. i have the most experience with a Krieghoff in a .500NE.

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Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK

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As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp

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Rip,

I heard about the foot race. Haven't seen the video. I don't think any man can know if he will break or not until he has faced an elephant coming fast at him. It is a truly impressive sight. Interestingly, both Buzz Charlton and Rich Tabor told me that few guys break and run for it. That's good news I guess since it would make for a really uncomfortable evening in camp, I'm sure!

According to Rich and Buzz, not all guys who don't break are contributing members of the team either. Some freeze, some become wild with their rifles... Both had had clients crap or piss themselves. A couple had given up elephant hunting right there on the spot too.

I've seen trackers head for the hills, and I've seen game scouts do so as well, and they're carrying automatic weapons, which scares the heck out of me.

But most guys do all right and both stand their ground and contribute to the common defense as they can, at least that is what I've been told.

JPK

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Der Jaeger,


Rip,

I've seen trackers head for the hills, and I've seen game scouts do so as well, and they're carrying automatic weapons, which scares the heck out of me.

But most guys do all right and both stand their ground and contribute to the common defense as they can, at least that is what I've been told.

JPK

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Funny you should state that---when we were chased a bit by a bull this year..one of the game scouts fire a shot over our heads while heading out..Ian ripped him a new one..but after out ears had taken the brunt of his shot...

Ripp

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Der Jaeger,

With all the apparently phony, or at least innaccurate, hearsay so often repeated about the number of PH's recomending 375's I would have thought the ratio would have been lower.

My own experience regarding PH recomendations (for elephant) runs fairly similar to Boddington's polls, but with less representation of the bigger than 470 rifles. On the other hand, they often come with the caveat, "If the hunter is familiar with his rifle and accustomed to its recoil...," or similar. When the question of what if recoil is an issue is raised then I recall that the 375H&H and the 416's get about equal the number of secondary recomendations. The 375 because it is easy to shoot and the 416's because they offer more performance than the 375, if not as much as the 450's, and are viewed as a plausible compromise.

I've read Boddington's previous book "Safari Rifles." Good info for the most part, but he played favorites and did not do his research in several areas, 458wm performance being one that always comes to my attention. Every time I pull the trigger and see the results, either on the chronograph or on game, or speak with or read of a PH or former elephant culling officer who swears by it.

JPK

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As in the case of Safari Rifles II--actually more praise than is warranted IMHO, is given by Boddington on the .458Win...it goes on to say that with todays advancement in powder and bullet technology, there is basically no fly in the ointment with the .458W...also stated that Hornady I believe, is loading a factory load with 2200 fps velocity with a 500 gr bullet..didn't think it could reach that level..curious what the pressures are at that velocity..

Boddington also goes on stating that in his opinion, the 458 Lott is the 45 to go with, in his self reported elephant hunting history..he states his elephant hunting experience is quite a bit more in the past 3 years..at least more than one..as I seen him shooting several in either "Tracks Across Africa" or on the DVD on elephant with Ivan Carter..


Also stated is a quote from Bell who basically stated if you don't place your shot on an elephant it does not matter whether you hit him with 100 or 10 million..your shot needs to find his mark..
Not sure I agree with that totally, as stated, there is evidence the big bores will turn a bull and that includes the .416...

Johan Calitz, who has a ton, (no pun intended) of elephant experience, states he has seen numerous failures by the older big Nitro calibers as to penetration...so, the issue of penetration again is raised..I am not trying to kill a dead horse hear...but, ....there is also a statements made in seveal areas of the book at the 416, in Rigby, Remington, whatever, traveling at 2400 fps with its long for caliber bullet of 400 grs will outpenetrate a .458 with a 500 even at 2200 every time...which makes sense as the 458 has less speed and more surface area to slow it down..also states the .416 will also turn a bull on a charge...

Actually laughed pretty hard when the story of using a .505 Gibbs, Harland shot a cow through both shoulders, the bullet then went on to hit another ele beside the tail and the bullet was found in the front portion of that cow..now that is penetration..

JPK, I agree with you, if all one is going after, is elephant, I will probably grab my double .470 Westley and call it good...but if there are other animals on the plate..believe I will stick with my .416..again, just in my experience, more versatile and all the penetration I need...

Thx

Ripp

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Rip,

It only takes one elephant to have more than a ton of experience! About five tons of experience per, I think!

Sticking only to recent published "book loads" 2250fps is possible from a 458wm shooting 500grs out of a 24" barrel. AA2230 is one powder that will do this. See the Hotnaday book, current loads are the same as the previuos manual. This manual was recommended to me by Woodleigh, btw.

My test in winter and in summer with AA2230 show the powder to be pretty temperature insensative, delivering about the same velocity despite 50* or 60*F differences in temps, and also when the gun and ammo are left lying out in +95*F sunny days to heat up.

Also, some pressure test done on my behalf showed that most of the standard 458wm ammo - not the Hornaday Heavy Magnum load - is loaded well below SAAMI specs. My loads, 500grs at 2145fps, out of 26" barrels, is well below max, but over some of the slow factory stuff. I understand, but cannot confirm, that Euro ammo loaded to CIP specs allows a hotter loading.

I wouldn't load a 458wm to 2250fps with 500grs. No need imo. If I had a bolt rifle I would go to 2175-2200fps though. I have a Lott, but that one would be loaded to the similar velocities and not towrd 2300fps if I were to take it elephant hunting. I think a double rifle and elephant hunting go hand in hand. The ultimate choice for the ultimate game and the only situation where, imo, the double shows no real disadvantge and the next choice does and is significantly less than optimal. The more so the thicker the bush. The lions share of the bolt rifle using PH's seem to agree with this too.

For penetration, I'll always refer to Sectional Density and velocity. Two similar solid bullets, say Woodleighs, of equal sectional density will penetrate equally if velocity is equal. Add penetration by adding velocity. A 500gr .458" bullet will yeild better penetration than either a 400 or 410gr .416" bullet given equal velocity because of the higher SD, but when velocity isn't equal... I trade the added penetration of the 416 for the added thump of the 458. I think this is the way to go since the penetration of the 500grers at 2145fps has never been close to wanting. For more penetration, and no visibly less thump the flat nose .458" 450's would and do get my call. I think history is on my side.

When it comes to report of penetration failure with the big NE's, first I always wonder what the bullet was, an old cupro nickel jacketed or a newer Woodleigh steel jacketed, then I wonder about the velocity, then I wonder about the shot angle... Given my experience with two elephants shot with 500grers at 2050fps, I have to think that problems arise in the first two, either the bullet or the velocity, meaning that someone shot old ammo with cupro nickel jackets or it wasn't up to the century plus old, tried and true standard and someone tried to shave some recoil by loading down.

Don't forget, when thinking of bullet length, the work of some fellows, including, I believe, 500 Grains, on rifle twist and solid bullet stability and penetration in game. The same bullets at greater spin rates produce greater penetration in game. Corrally?, "Longer bullets need more twist to equal the penetration of shorter bullets, given the same velocity?" The Rigby is a slow twist relative, I think the Rem is much fater twist.

Fun debate, and without the acrimony and personal attacks that some debates, especially on other forums, devolve to.

JPK

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Don't forget, when thinking of bullet length, the work of some fellows, including, I believe, 500 Grains, on rifle twist and solid bullet stability and penetration in game. The same bullets at greater spin rates produce greater penetration in game.
JPK

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By the way, You damn near him me with that bullet..

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You must'a ducked!!

And just for the record, that bullet demonstrates a most exaggerated example of yaw as it was a .30 cal tracer run single-shot thru a 7.62x25 TT33 Tokarev pistol. I keep a few of those as signalling rounds for survival purposes for my ski jaunts. Kinda like road flares.

Same bullet shot from a .30-06 at normal speed shows a less dramatic helix. Still visible, but less dramatic. For really eerie pyrotechnics, launching tracers into the night sky during a fine snowstormor into light clouds takes the cake!

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Thinking of penetration, JPK, 450-grain .416 bullets should have have more sectional density than 500-gr .458s.

The matter of increased velocity giving deeper penetration of course assumes we have tough, full-patch bullets. With soft-points it is usually the other way round in big-game calibres.


PS: If any Aussies can part with a small handful of FMJ 300-grain .338 slugs, please let me know. They might help in case I'm caught by something tough and nasty while armed for plains game, since some .338 solids have been said to penetrate the head of an elephant.

- Paul

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Wasn't intending to include softs in the discussion.

Yes, the .416" 450's have higher SD than the .458" 500's, but not the 550's!

SD .416" 450gr = .371. SD .458" 500gr = .341, 550gr = .375.

The 550's are of no use in the 458wm, but they are the cat's meow in the 458Lott, Ackeley, Rigby,... all the big case .458" rounds. The Lott will push them to 2150fps without trouble. Memebr 456H&H reports excellent penertation in elephants with the 550's at 2150fps mv, in the range of +70". BTW, he has more extensive elephant experience than I do, by a good bit.

JPK

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9.3x57
think 93 stated its 14".

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And for fun...

This quote by Ganyana: "All bullets yaw (helix) - shott a tracer into the night sky and watch".

Here's one launched from my front yard. And before anyone squeals, it is literally 185 miles of dense forest and mountains utterly devoid of buildings, sheds, camps or human habitation in that direction, and there was heavy snow on the ground and mist in the air when the shots were fired.

If a guy can't see the yaw, he ain't lookin'!!

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