transvaal
(.300 member)
26/03/17 03:06 PM
Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

In Autumn 2015 (Northern Hemisphere) I began a task to build, regulate and engrave a double rifle with shoe lump barrels. I had not ever built shoe lump barrels nor had I ever seen anyone do so. Therefore the process of building this DR (in .38-55 McPherson Express--255 grain .377" Hawk bullet and 39 grs 3031 at 2,000 fps) was a self-education. I photographed much of the building of the DR and the barrels and shared them with my fellow engravers and gun makers on the Engravers Cafe BBS during the more than 1-year project. Maybe some of you followed my project on Engravers Cafe.

However the project was completed in February 2017 and I am going to show you the end results and then start at the beginning to explain how I build shoe lump barrels. At least I am going to show you the photos if I can make the less than user friendly photo posting system of this BBS work.

I picked an old American cartridge of about 125 years of age to see what could be done with it if you loaded it up to max+ psi. Michael McPherson, gun writer developed a longer .38-55 case some few years ago and I purchased a chamber reamer for his .38-55 McPherson and bought a few hundred .38-55 McPherson brass cases from Starline. Since my plan was to have a set of barrels that were at least 1 inch in diameter at the breech and that the barrel alloy steel would be 4140, and that I was using a 1963 vintage Brno ZP-45 SLE action. I was confident that the resulting DR would tolerate the chamber and barrel pressure of the "wildcat" cartridge. I tested this assumption by pressure way over what the UK proof houses test percentage wise of the service load of a specific cartridge. That is all that I will say about the pressure subject now or in the future.

I have heard that at least one other individual here in the USA has made a set of shoe lump barrels, but I have not seen them or the DR that they may be fitted.

Building a rifle of any type requires skill and patience along with proper equipment and tools. Anyone who builds such a rifle assumes all the risk for the project. I do not warrant or guarantee any methods I used or work that others might produce after reading how I built my project. The sole risk lies with the rifle builder.

Equipment that I used included vertical and horizontal mills, lathes, drill presses, high temp brazing furnace/burners, Oxy/Acl equipment, tools and equipment that I built as well as purchased.

The engraving system I used is the Lindsay foot control Airgraver and a bino microscope. The engraving style used is based upon English Fine Scroll as taught by Marcus Hunt of the UK.

My plan is to first show photos of the finished and cased rifle along with the engraving of the DR in the white. In subsequent posts I will start with photos of the milling of a 2 inch dia 2.7 inch bar of 4140 as the shoe lump platform. The building of the platform to conform with the center of the firing pin holes in the action is a major calculation undertaking in and of itself. The one item alone required many prototypes before I was satisfied with the results.













93x64mm
(.416 member)
26/03/17 03:48 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Fancy work Transvaal!

transvaal
(.300 member)
26/03/17 03:48 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

OK, it has been 3 years or so since I posted photos and I have forgotten how to do it and cannot find instructions here. Someone tell me how to post photos and not addresses of the photos as I have done.. Here is what I did. I pulled up the photos I wanted on Photobucket; right clicked and selected Copy Address and clicked on that; then I went to the post above and selected URB and pasted to the two bars that came up.

eagle27
(.400 member)
26/03/17 07:33 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Point to the top left corner of your photo and a square with lines appears with a drop down, left click 'Share' then select address in box below IMG, left click and box briefly flicks yellow with Copied. Go back to your NE post, right click and select paste. Your post will show a URL address but once you 'continue' and finish your post your photo will show.

transvaal
(.300 member)
27/03/17 12:12 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Eagle27;

Thanks, I will delete the photo links in my post and add photos later today using your method outlined in your post.


transvaal
(.300 member)
27/03/17 07:23 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

I built this DR on a 1963 series Brno zp49 SLE donor action. Actions of this time frame are machined with a very thick draw section of the action lump slot and the draw is machined at an angle instead of a radius. This allowed me to build and joint a set of barrels that are of similar design to how H&H and other UK DR makers use today to provide for a more ridged lock up of the action to the barrels upon closing of the action. Vic Venters in his book: Gun Craft illustrates this on page 13. The jointing of the barrels then are held tightly against three points 1)action face to barrel face; 2)action draw to forward surface of the rear lump (called the circle area); and the forward lump hook to the hinge pin.

If you do not follow me in this description let me know and I will photograph page 15 of Vic's book and add the photo to the post.

For those of you who follow me on this you can see that the jointing of barrels using this 3 point lock up is very time consuming and much pre-planing an thought is required, not to mention handicraft.

Here are some photos that will show you how to get started.













MMBA
(.275 member)
27/03/17 12:56 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

This is fantastic. Please keep posting.

transvaal
(.300 member)
27/03/17 01:55 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Continuing the posting of photos of machining the shoe lump platform.

It occurred to me earlier tonight as I was waiting for Photobucket to regain its operational ability, that I should show you some photos of what the final shoe lump product looks like and how it is positioned on the barrels prior to brazing all together. Then you will understand where we are and where we are going on this posting.

In the photos below you will see photos of the machining of the lumps. You will also see photos of the contured barrels after I spent a week or so getting them down to the weight and profile that I wanted. The diameter of the barrels at the muzzle is .575" and they weight a bit over 2 pounds each. Most importantly you will see how I devised a way to cut away a radius section of the bottom of the barrels to fit the shoe lump platform. This cutting of the radius is the solution to having the barrels breech end exactly centered to the firing pin bushing holes (striker discs holes) while at the same time leaving about .075" minimum shoe lump radius under the barrels for proper service strength and brazing area. It is extremely important to calculate this machining of the radius and the fitting to the lump exactly to withing a few thousands of an inch, so that when the action is closed you have sufficient gap between the barrel flats and the action flats.











transvaal
(.300 member)
27/03/17 02:22 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

The machine cutting away of a radius (1 inch) to the right/left top of the shoe lump platform is accomplished by a 1 inch ball tip milling cutter as illustrated in the photo below. You can also set the angle of the barrel convergence so that the radius "channels" are correctly positioned for the amount of convergence you desire. If you cut your channels to deep (and too deep can be only a few thousands of an inch, you will have to discard the shoe lump platform that you have spent much time and effort and make a new replacement. I picked 1 inch as my radius after much careful consideration and measuring to have the proper fit and jointing of the barrels.

After you have finished the total machining of the shoe lumps, including cutting the angle of the front of the rear lump to mate at a hard fit with the action draw, you can began to hand joint the platform to the action prior to brazing the barrels to the shoe lump platform. Much of the fitting and jointing will be done with the hinge pin removed from the action. Later I will explain how this is accomplished by leaving material at the top of the forward lump hook. If I forget to explain it remind me of it.













transvaal
(.300 member)
27/03/17 03:07 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

I forgot to state earlier that I am sharing this shoe lump barrel building method as an education to all of you both amateur and professional. Anything that you want more explanation or details, just post about it, and I will respond. I do not have an ego to sooth or a trade secret to cover up. I remember Jack Rowe telling me that when he was a lad in Birmingham, England learning the gun trade, that many times when he walked into a gunmakers shop, that the gunmaker working at the bench would cover the work with a spare apron so that Jack could not see what he was doing or how he was doing it.

buckbrush
(.300 member)
27/03/17 04:08 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

very interesting post.

Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
27/03/17 06:59 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Transval, very very nice. Great machining and some clever work holding methods. Your engraving is first rate, very impressive. I agree about showing people how to do things rather than keeping all the info to yourself. Many old tradesman used to do just that, keep all the little tricks to themselves and not really help the new guys trying to learn.

Waidmannsheil.


transvaal
(.300 member)
28/03/17 12:08 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

You will notice in the photo of the above post that the action face shows the original shotgun firing pin (striker) discs that are threaded into the action face. These discs were replaced with two discs that I made from 0-1 alloy steel, with reduced diameter firing pin hole suitable for high pressure rifle cartridge as well as the 3 holes for the removal/installation tool to fit into. I reduced the 3 mentioned holes to the size of a #50 drill; and the reason for this reduction was that I wanted to make sure that the 3 holes were outside of the primer zone when the rifle was fired. The correct position of 120 degrees apart for the 3 holes was accomplished using a rotary fixture mounted vertically on the table of my vertical mill. After building these discs of 0-1 alloy steel they were hardened and tempered. Small item but could cause big issues if not put right in building a DR.

You can also see the hidden third fastener slot in the face of the action. We can discuss this later for any of you who wish to, but suffice it to say now that the third fastener fitting should be the final item to be fitting when jointing the DR barrels to the action. I like third fasteners of this type to be fitted to where they will hold the action closed to the same position as the action horizontal locking bolt. They should be made and fitted so that as the DR recoil wears the barrel extension over the years a new third fastener of thicker steel can be made and inserted in the slot without enlargement of the slot.

I think this is a proper time in this narrative to discuss that all double gun actions are not made to exacting tolerances and that each one should be checked for the squareness of the face to the lump slot that is milled into the water table of the action. This slot is the data point from which all dimensions and measurements of the action must be taken.

The first measurement that should be checked: Is the face of the action square (perpendicular)to the water table lump slot? (You will be surprised at what you find if you do this test) In order that this test can be carried out with a high degree of accuracy a fixture must be made that holds the action securely without any movement so that the fixture with the action attached can be mounted on a vertical mill and a dial indicator used to measure deviation from zero right to left and left to right of the face of the action. You cannot mount a double gun/rifle action with 100 % assurance that it is mounted square in all directions without such a fixture. The photos below show how to make the fixture.

The fixture is made in a vertical mill and is machined square in all directions. A portion of the fixture is milled to exact width (less .001" of the individual action's lump slot, as the action is to be attached via this portion or extension of the fixture.







transvaal
(.300 member)
28/03/17 01:51 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Here is photo of page 15 of the book: "Gun Craft" by Vic Venters illustrating how the draw of the action makes hard contact with the "circle"/"wedge" area of the barrels rear lump, when the DR action is closed. I hope that this makes it clearer for all of you.



transvaal
(.300 member)
28/03/17 03:20 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Now, we can discuss the profiling of the barrels and the prototype machining I did on barrel breech end "mock ups". As I stated at the outset of this post, I had no experience in building or knowing how to build shoe lump barrels, and as a result I "thought" through the process of how I could do it for about 3 months. As I viewed the 2-3 methods that I conceived in my mind of how I could make a set of shoe lump barrels that would fit the donor zp49 action I had at hand, I settled on the method of building a shoe lump platform that I have illustrated above.

However, I did not want to risk the use the set of barrels that I had profiled from 1.120" round rifle blanks, to learn if my ideas proved to be correct or wrong. Therefore after I had profiled the barrels, I set about machining the mock up breech ends to determine how many degrees of the 360 degrees of the outside diameter of the barrels I must cut away to fit the shoe lump platform. This is illustrated in the photos below.













transvaal
(.300 member)
28/03/17 03:54 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

In the photo above where I am holding the shoe lump platform into the machined recess of the prototype barrel breech end, you can see the extractor hole clearly. As you would expect the extractor hole must be drilled precisely for the full length of the shoe lump platform. Such a precise hole is outside the realm of typical drill press drilling. A "D" drill is made to drill using drill rod and milling the "D" section at the end of this shop made "D" drill. After you make the "D" drill you must hardened it and temper it back with only about 350 degrees F temper. Some of you will have not encountered a "D" drill or the technique of using them. If you will Google "how to make and use a "D" drill you will find all about them and so forth.

In order to start the hole with 100% accuracy a ball tip milling cuter of the diameter required is used and the depth of the hole is cut with the milling cutter to about 1/2 inch. Then you complete the drilling with the "D" drill, WHICH is long process as you only drill a depth of .050", back the "D" drill out of the hole, clean the hole of all chips and continue on at increments of .050" per drilling cut. The position of the milling machine that you are using to do the drilling as well as the milling vise and table must not be changed during the entire process, which is likely to be more than one hour.

Although a photo of "D" drilling is above (photo #6 from the start of the post). I am adding it here again. I cannot over emphasis how important a hole through the shoe lump platform that does not deviate more than +/- .005" from end to end is in order that an automatic ejector system works properly. If you do not get this done properly, then you are in for trouble later on on a set of barrels that have been brazed to the shoe lump, and the hole cannot be re-drilled to correct the problem. If you do not have it drilled properly, then discard the shoe lump platform and make a new one and drill it correctly. Gunsmiths who have had experience in drilling such accurate holes in making a set of barrels are seldom found, and practice is required before they do this work. Engravers practice engraving an entire side lock or whatever they are working on before we actually do the engraving on the gun or rifle. This practice may take many hours or days, but you cannot afford to "mess" up a gun or rifle and set yourself for days of work that you will not receive compensation.

Notice how early in the shoe lump platform machining that I have "D" drilled the extractor hole (7/32"). If you delay drilling this hole and you drill it off, then you will have maybe 1/2-1 day of work that you will have to discard.



transvaal
(.300 member)
28/03/17 07:31 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

The brazing of the barrels is the next subject up for discussion. I tried 2 methods of heating the barrel pair up to brazing temperature: 1) light weight fire brick pile furnace; and 2) the heating of the barrels with a large ring propane burner similar to the way that I found that Verney Carron uses. This link will show you how Verney-Carron does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKdjPS8339k&list=FL6pg-PI55WcZg9sM6D7qc6A

See the Verney-Carron brazing method starting at 1 minute 50 seconds into the video.

After I found the video that illustrated the Verney-Carron method I discontinued using the fire brick pile furnace. The reason being that by being able to bring an Oxy/Actl torch quickly to the barrels after they reach brazing flow temperature, you can be assured that you can reach all the areas of the barrels to add braze if you need to. Secondly and importantly you can allow the barrels to drop in temperature while they are stationary and be assured that the do not move from the desired position on the shoe lump platform. Thirdly there is less concern about overheating the barrel set with the open burner method. You use more fuel with Verney-Carron method, but it is outweighed all its advantages over the furnace.

I built a fixture to hold the barrels while they are heated. This fixture does not consume as much heat as the fixture you will see in the video, I think. Here are some photos. Please note that much more silver braze is needed that what I have placed for this photo. You will see what the barrels look like from their breech end in the brazing furnace or muffle as it is also called. The final photos are the barrels after they have been cleaned.













transvaal
(.300 member)
28/03/17 07:59 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

After brazing of the barrels the breech end needs to be machined for the hidden third fastener projection and for the correct breech angle to mate against the breech of the action. The protractor shown in the second photos is used to set the exact angle. It should be noted that the cartridge chambers were rough reamed prior to the profiling of the barrels in order to ream them to exact center of the bore. The barrels were hung to the far left side of the vertical mill and head of the mill rotated to the left over the barrels. And as you see the barrels are held in a small precision vise and that vise is held in the large 6 inch mill vise.





Claydog
(.375 member)
28/03/17 08:39 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Thanks for taking the time to show this. Fascinating

MMBA
(.275 member)
28/03/17 12:59 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Most generous. Please keep posting.

gryphon
(.450 member)
28/03/17 01:41 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Fantastic work and I think JH will just about award you life membership of NE forums if you keep posting this great project.

Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
28/03/17 08:07 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Great work, very clever way of attaching the shoe lump, lots of surface area. Keep it coming, very interesting.

Waidmannsheil.


transvaal
(.300 member)
29/03/17 03:25 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

You will notice that the diameter of the thru-hole for the extractors is small (7/32). It is small as I wanted reduce risk of removing too much metal. Therefore I chose a very strong hard steel alloy (O-1) to make the two extractors. Also as the extractor shaft diameters are small the construction of these needs to be of solid one piece material, to my mind. No welding.

The method I used to make these two extractors was to mill a round bar of O-1 and chuck the flattened bar in a four-jaw chuck in the lathe and cut away everything I did not want--this is the way of the past and the future way of constructing something like these extractors is additive machining not subtractive. A better way to have done this using the old method was to have forged a section of O-1 down to nearly the size I needed then turned it with the lathe. However, where in the past I would have done this, Arthritis in my hands makes it so painful to hold a hammer while forging on the anvil, that I can no longer do any forging of this type.

Of course the old method that I used is a long process and wastes a lot of expensive alloy steel, but here are some photos. I have included a photo of the fixture-jig I built to hold the extractors where they can be machined very accurately horizontally into two halves. The two extractor halves were heat treated. Fixtures can be made to hold extractor halves, but machining a bar of steel exactly square to all sides, then while the extractor fixture remains in the mill vise from the last machining (of the 4 mills cuts to make it square all around) mill a slot horizontally with a ball time milling cutter (in this case 7/32" milling cutter)to a depth a few thousands of an inch less than 50% of the diameter of the extractor shaft needed. Although I do not have a photo that illustrates the the cross pieces retainers that I made to hold the extractor firmly in place during milling, you can see the threaded holes in the top of the fixture and have a good idea of how they work. I made provisions for three cross piece retainers. I do not like this extractor fixture design I made and will make some other design in the future as needed.
















transvaal
(.300 member)
29/03/17 04:11 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

I noticed that photos in my first post have disappeared and I no longer have an "edit" box to select to go restore these photos of the finished DR. I suppose these photos have disappeared due to changes in the Photobucket.

Can anyone tell me how to regain edit ability to the original post to restore the photos? In the meantime I have added "in the white" and "in the black" full view photos in the 6th post from the top as I continue to have edit rights in it.


Matabele
(.300 member)
29/03/17 06:48 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

This is a fantastic build and a pleasure to watch unfold, thanks for sharing!

Can I ask how you determined the angle of conversion for the barrels?

And you asked to be reminded to share some info on the jointing process with the hinge pin removed and excess material left on the forward lump? I would appreciate hearing more on this if you could, thank you!


transvaal
(.300 member)
29/03/17 01:25 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Quote:

This is a fantastic build and a pleasure to watch unfold, thanks for sharing!

Can I ask how you determined the angle of conversion for the barrels?

And you asked to be reminded to share some info on the jointing process with the hinge pin removed and excess material left on the forward lump? I would appreciate hearing more on this if you could, thank you!




Mark;

The convergence angle of double rifle barrels is not an exact science by any means, and to me is largely a matter of experience. On this particular rifle I converged each barrel to the center line of the distance between the firing pin holes at about .040" at the muzzle of the 22.5 inches of barrel length--meaning that the center of the bores are .080" nearer each other at the muzzle than at the breech. This is a good topic for you to research with some of your current colleagues.

One of the members of this forum, Ron Vella, has built about 6 double rifle using Brno zp49 actions and I hope that he will provide input as to how he came about deciding on barrel convergence, as he is a expert at it.

I will remember to discuss the jointing of the barrels in future posts.

Thanks;


transvaal
(.300 member)
30/03/17 02:05 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

On second thought to my comment above to discuss later the jointing of these shoe lump barrels with a wedge shaped rear lump forward surface (instead of a radius or as called in the trade "circle"), now is as good a time as ever.

I envy those gunmakers who have been trained and versed by a elder expert in the process of jointing barrels to the action of double rifles. What I am about to discuss is based upon what I have learned by the experience of trial and error. Trial and error learning, unfortunately is full of negative reinforcement and I think positive reinforcement is best in this subject. I am going to return to my saved photos in my computer database and post a couple here to use as references as I discuss what I learned in the jointing process of this DR.



In this photo you can clearly see that the forward surface is a wedge shape and that the shape is at an angle of some sort to the barrel flats. In this case that angle is the exact same angle (as determined by measurements with protractors) to fit face to face with the matching angle in the draw portion of the action's lump slot. You can also the clearly the forward lump's hook surface.

Beginning with the shoe lump platform alone I began to joint it to the DR's action in the same manner that as usual with jointing(at least to my mind), and that is with the action's hinge pin being the center rotation point of the arc of movement vertically of the shoe lump platform. I began to reduce by milling and filing the rear of the shoe lump platform to allow this platform to come nearer the action flat, with the goal of leaving .010"+ gap between the flat of the shoe lump platform and the action flats when the shoe lump platform is locked in place by the horizontal forward movement of the action's locking bolt (driven by the top lever spindle and its spring). The goal of the proper jointing in this case was that when the shoe lump platform is rotated in its vertical arc downward that when the horizontal action of the locking bolt occurs that the shoe lump platform rear surface is firmly set against the action face; and that the rear lump wedge is firmly set against the corresponding surface of the draw; and of course, the hinge pin has contact with the forward surface of the front lump hook(all of this is illustrated in the second diagram of page 15 of Vic Venters in a post above).

In order to be able to perform this complicated jointing procedure, I made a hinge pin that was undersized to what I reckoned I would finally need; and after I had reached a point to where the shoe lump platform was able to rotate downward to within a position that I reckoned I could work with to finalize the jointing(see photo below), I removed the hinge pin completely. I continued to fit the shoe lump platform to the breech face and action draw, without the hinge pin in place. When in this fitting, I reached a point nearer the degree of gap between the shoe lump flat and the action flat, I stopped and moved the shoe lump platform over to my vertical mill and milled the 1 inch radius grooves for the barrels to fit into. After this I brazed the barrels to the shoe lump platform and finished the jointing with the complete shoe lump barrel set. When I was near to my final clearance and hard fit up against the action standing breech face and the action draw, I made my final hinge pin to the diameter I desired and fitted all three points(standing breech face, draw, and hinge pin)by a scrape, file and so forth. Of course this took hours upon hours of work. But this is how I was able to have all three points to joint at the same time.

The results are that it is the rear lump and the hinge pin together that take the force of firing of the cartridge, not just the hinge pin.










Matabele
(.300 member)
30/03/17 07:58 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Many thanks for the explanation Steve, it makes complete sense the way you have done the jointing. I have rejointed quite a few shotguns and appreciate the time it takes to get it right. The shotguns we manufacture fortunately have a removable draw system, greatly simplifying the rejoint, however the older vintage guns are not so forgiving!

I look forward to the next installment.


transvaal
(.300 member)
30/03/17 09:40 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Mark;

Please comment in some detail if you can about how the replaceable draw works, such as is it dovetailed into the action and held by a screw; is it hardened? I have seen how the H&H replaceable draw is designed.


Matabele
(.300 member)
01/04/17 07:08 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Hello Steve,

I will take some pictures of the draw system in the coming week, as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

Hope everyones weekend is going well!


transvaal
(.300 member)
01/04/17 11:03 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Mark;

Thanks we all will be waiting to see your photographs, especially from an workshop of one of the innovators of modern technology to traditional made guns.

In the meantime, I will speak to the issue that is next in the building of the subject DR, and that is the making and installation of top and bottom ribs, as well as quarter rib for use with a scope and the front sight ramp. These items can easily be the source of too much weight added to the barrel, if one is not diligent.

In order to have minimum weight added to the barrels, I searched for a source of thin high quality steel shaped to the radius I needed for building ribs. I needed something in the range of a 1.5 inch diameter thin wall tube to cut a radius section. I was search for some such tubing with maybe .025" thickness. Where I found the source of strong thin wall tubing was with builders and suppliers of materials to the automobile racing business. They need very strong and lightweight tubing in the building of their automobiles, motorcycles and so forth. I found just what I needed on eBay from one of these firms.

I silver brazed a fore-end loop to the position I needed between the barrels as well as a cross piece between the barrels at about 11 inches from the muzzles, being careful to try to keep the barrels in the convergence angle as well as horizontal alignment.

The DR was test fired 2 times per barrel in an appropriate fixture with very high pressure loads.

I then built a temporary to mount a scope (as illustrated in this photo below) and tested the rifle impact point at 50 and 100 yards.



Although this photo is not of very good detail, you will be able to see that I milled a temporary ramp with dovetail slots to where a scope could be mounted and attached this ramp to temporary thread tapped holes to the top of the fore-end loop and another hole that I drilled and taped in the barrel support at the breech(this support was silver brazed in place at the time I brazed the barrels to the shoe lump platform).

The testing of the DR with such a temporary scope mount, or for that matter a open sight, is not necessary. However, I did it as I was going to stop in my rifle building process and develop a wildcat load for the DR and I knew that this effort would take several weeks or a month or so. Which it did. The load that I wanted to develop in the .38-55 McPherson cartridge case was a load that would equal the old .375 2 1/2 inch Holland & Holland flanged nitro express cartridge, but without the cost and expense of being able to purchase a couple of hundred .375 2 1/2" flanged empty brass cases, chamber reamer, loading dies and so forth--all of which would be more expensive than the route of using .38-55 McPherson.

I built the ribs, quarter ribs and so forth and attached them with tin/lead solder. I think all of you will be familiar with this task and know that it is time consuming. Purchase a copy of the video "A look Inside Holland & Holland" by www.gunmakersrow.co.uk. to view each step of how H&H builds guns and rifles, even the explanation and illustration of their DR barrel regulation and their barrel regulation wedge is there. The video may be difficult to find now, but it is out there even though it was made some 5-7 years ago. It is worth every penny it cost. I paid USA$50.00 for mine 5 years ago.

After the the rib installation it was time to regulate the barrels, which took some time to do. I use the Holland & Holland method of a vertical wedge between a machined front barrel bloc that fits the OD of the barrels at the muzzle as the photo below illustrates.




After I have the DR shooting the way I want at 100 yards, I build a solid front barrel bloc for the correct distance between the barrels at the muzzle and solder it in place. The following 2 photographs are from the Holland & Holland video that I discussed earlier and they illustrate the vertical wedge and the final bloc as I have just discussed. After these two Holland & Holland photos is a photo of my DR's muzzle and the muzzle bloc.













transvaal
(.300 member)
04/04/17 12:24 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Of course, after regulation of the barrels of this DR, was the fitting of the original buttstock to my dimensions, reforming of the piston grip, checkering, leather covering a Pachmayr deaccl. recoil pad.

A few comments about the Brno zp49 double shotgun action to use as a DR action. I think that Ron Vella of Canada has demonstrated that these actions can be used with a number of lower pressure cartridges, and he has shown that on previous posts on this BBS that you can find.

These actions are coil spring side lock of the backlock design, and they use the typical Holland style cocking levers to engage directly with extensions of the lock tumblers to cock the tumblers. The cocking levers are very robust. Within the forward portion of the cocking levers is milled an area for the tripping levers for the activating the individual right and left side ejector kickers. The ejector system is of the Southgate design. The fore-end metal is robust as well and can be lightened by milling away and you can reduce its weight by 4 ounces.

However, one item that a DR needs, safety intercepting sears, are not a Brno zp49 component. I therefore set about to design and install a prototype safety intercepting sear for the action. The design I dreamed up is loosely based upon John Robertson's (Owner of Boss in early 20th century) Boss gun and rifle safety interrupting sear.

It is of interest to me and will be to you as well that I have not seen a safety intercepting sear that will allow the gun to be fired by pulling the trigger on the lock after the safety intercepting sear has been tripped. Let me explain with a hypothetical example: "You are on a Cape Buffalo hunt and a Cape Buffalo suddenly appears from nowhere and charges you at short distance. You fire the right barrel and hit the Buffalo, but he is still coming at you. You go to fire the left barrel and it will not fire no matter how hard you pull the trigger. For some reason the safety intercepting sear has tripped on the left side lock--maybe it was recoil from the right barrel firing that caused it. Nevertheless you are going to have to get away from the charging Buffalo quickly if you can."

It would be good to have safety intercepting sears that if they tripped and held the tumbler in position from accidental firing, that even though they held the tumbler in this position you could with extra pulling effort fire the DR.

That is the way the prototype safety intercepting sears work on my DR.

You will see from the photo that the lever that prevents the tumbler from moving forward and contacting the firing pin (strikers), is prevented from doing so by an extension mid way on the tumbler. I added this extension to the existing tumbler, by first removing and annealing the tumbler then drilling and tapping a size 8-32 screw thread hole and inserting a 3/32" diameter short section of O1 drill rod into the hole. Of course, the section of O1 drill rod had a smaller diameter portion that I had turned and threaded to 8-32 size. And upon further observation you will see that the larger diameter portion ("tumbler stud" is what we will name it) of the O1 rod extending from the tumbler is milled to an angle that mates to the angle of the top hook section of the intercepting sear lever.

For whatever reason that the safety intercepting sear of this design occurs the tumbler moves forward under its mainspring tension, but only moves .020"-.040" distance and is stopped and held by the hook to tumbler stud contact. However the angle of the tumbler stud forward surface and the angle of the intercepting sear lever hook is of such an angle that if one pulls hard upon the trigger (7-9 lbs of pull) the intercepting sear hook will move down from the tumbler stud and allow the tumbler to contact the striker and fire the DR. The intercepting sear lever is made of high strength alloy steel and hardened in order to withstand use as I just described.

the tumbler is rehardened and tempered. The tumbler stud is hardened and tempered as well, but is hardened and tempered individually-not while it is screwed into the tumbler.

The hardening and tempering of a lock tumbler must be done very carefully leaving the bent surface hard but not liable to chipping away during use, while leaving the cocking extension portion of the tumbler hard enough not wear away and the upper portion of the tumbler that contacts the striker hard but not so hard that it might begin to crack. If one has modern proper alloy steel to make a tumbler with, the entire tumbler can be heat treated the same throughout. Since I did not know the alloy of the steel of this Brno lock tumblers I heat treated them the way I just described.

Of course as you will notice I had to drill and tap a hole in the lock plate for the intercepting sear lever as well as make a pivot screw and a hair spring to hold the intercepting sear lever upwards.





Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
04/04/17 06:28 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Very nice, clever design. Good idea as well, allowing you to continue shooting with a heavier trigger pull rather than having to re-cock the action while being stomped on by a buffalo. If you use carbide drills and taps you can avoid the annealing and re-heating. We use carbide all the time at work including countersinks as much of our work uses hardened material. I have been acquiring over time a full set of Ratio Drills which in my case have a drill length of 3D (Although it is actually slightly longer and you can get 5D and 7D etc.) and a shank of a nominal diameter which allows it to be held in a collet chuck. As the point is specially ground and the drill is very rigid, you do not need to center drill first, just plunge. They cost a bit of money but it is the best thing I ever did.

Waidmannsheil.


transvaal
(.300 member)
04/04/17 12:21 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

You are spot on about the carbide drills and taps. Wish I had a set.

Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
04/04/17 07:58 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

There is another way of tapping a thread into through hardened material without having to anneal first and that is with EDM. An orbital head is required, which unfortunately are very expensive so not all engineering shops that have an EDM machine will have an orbital head. Here is how it works, first you have to either drill a hole in the job using a carbide drill or you can spark a hole in using the EDM machine with a truncated electrode. Then you machine an electrode a bit smaller than the hole that you have just drilled in to the work piece. You then have to thread cut the electrode with the same pitch and tread depth as you would for a normal external thread. The electrode is then placed in the orbital head which is centered over the hole and lowered down to the thread depth required. The head is connected to the current source and turned on. A separate motor drive orbitaly oscillates the electrode and using a hand-wheel and inbuilt dial indicator, the extremity of the orbit is increased until the required thread depth is achieved. Below is a link to a YouTube clip showing how it works. There are several companies who make the heads and they all vary a bit. I was very lucky to be able to pick up a complete AGIE EDM machine and Orbital head for almost nothing before Christmas, but I had to build anew mezzanine floor to be able to fit it underneath. I should have the machine up and running in the next few months. If you machine up the electrode yourself than getting the sparking done by someone with a machine won't cost too much. Hope this helps.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n2h49jAhLg


Waidmannsheil.


Matabele
(.300 member)
07/04/17 07:11 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Steve, I finally managed to take some pictures to explain the detachable draw system. The system is not complicated by any means, and would be something readily achievable with manual machinery (although I would be tempted to modify it somewhat).

Here are some pictures of a draw out of the action to show the profile and slots which mate with corresponding races in the action body. Every craftsman develops their own method with things, but my approach with fitting these is to initally harden the draw and temper right back (steel is EN9) to allow easy filing. These draws are retained simply by a tight friction fit in the action body, and a degree of hardness helps to maintain a tight fit to the action as the part is tapped in and out during fitting. This is fine for shotguns but I would want to use some form of retaining pin if this were used on a double rifle.











The draw is the last thing to be fitted when actioning a gun, and it is preferable to have dialed in the desired amount of push and the barrels must be jointed down to the breech face. The following pic shows how the draw mates to the corresponding surface on the rear barrel lump.



I begin fitting the draw using good old lamp smoke, but once I get close to bringing the gun back on the face I will reharden the draw and temper back to a light straw. I will then switch to using a permanent marker, which is much thinnner than lamp soot and gives a clearer indication of the bearing. The high spots are taken down with diamond files until the gun is jointed back down. It must be noted that the draw is in effect attempting to hold the barrels off the face and care needs to be taken to ensure good engagment with the draw (you can feel the barrels "picking up" on the draw if you close the barrels slowly and feel for the slight drag) but it cannot be excessive or it will bring the gun off the face, even an imperceptible amount will lead to accelerated wear of the gun. The position of the top lever should be noted with the draw out of the gun, and the top lever should return to this same position with the draw fitted...if the top lever is held off then the draw is bearing too hard.

And that is it! A simple system, but care must be taken in its fitting. I hope this was of interest.


Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
07/04/17 07:42 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Very well done, a good candidate for the wire cuter where the radius of the insert can be made to perfectly match the radius on the lump if that was also wire cut. I also use a fine permanent marker which work very well. Great work.

Waidmannsheil.


transvaal
(.300 member)
07/04/17 08:18 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Mark;

Thanks so very much for the photos and the explanation of the replaceable draw. The method of retaining the draw in place is quite unique.

I like your comments on using a black felt marker. I find that much more useful than the smoke lamp alone. I believe that you are learning a great deal in this shop.

Kindest Regards;
Steve


twobobbwana
(.333 member)
07/04/17 11:32 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Matabele,

I've used black felt pens for some time when fitting parts and have wondered whether the ink layered down on the part is thicker or thinner than "smoke". It's certainly more convenient.

Thank you for the photos and the explanation of the removable draw. Vic Venters book is certainly a great one for explaining a lot of this.

When you say that "It must be noted that the draw is in effect attempting to hold the barrels off the face and care needs to be taken to ensure good engagement with the draw (you can feel the barrels "picking up" on the draw if you close the barrels slowly and feel for the slight drag) but it cannot be excessive or it will bring the gun off the face"............I always assumed that the "face" was the breech face so therefore wouldn't the draw be moving the barrels towards the breech face ???

I think that, in Vic Venters book, with jointing a double rifle it said that the force had to be taken off the hinge pin or it may bulge actions at the hinge pin.......perhaps this is what the "draw" is doing when it fitted correctly in a double rifle. Venters does show the difference between the jointing of a shotgun and the jointing of a double rifle in the book.....the shotgun uses the hingepin as "bearing point" whereas the double rifle doesn't due to the greater pressures involved.

Not nit picking/arguing just testing my understanding of the principle.

Keep up with the great work and please keep us informed.


Matabele
(.300 member)
08/04/17 09:26 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Quote:

When you say that "It must be noted that the draw is in effect attempting to hold the barrels off the face and care needs to be taken to ensure good engagement with the draw (you can feel the barrels "picking up" on the draw if you close the barrels slowly and feel for the slight drag) but it cannot be excessive or it will bring the gun off the face"............I always assumed that the "face" was the breech face so therefore wouldn't the draw be moving the barrels towards the breech face ???

I think that, in Vic Venters book, with jointing a double rifle it said that the force had to be taken off the hinge pin or it may bulge actions at the hinge pin.......perhaps this is what the "draw" is doing when it fitted correctly in a double rifle. Venters does show the difference between the jointing of a shotgun and the jointing of a double rifle in the book.....the shotgun uses the hingepin as "bearing point" whereas the double rifle doesn't due to the greater pressures involved.

Not nit picking/arguing just testing my understanding of the principle.

Keep up with the great work and please keep us informed.




Hi there! No worries at all, happy to discuss these sorts of things. You are absolutely correct in that the draw will attempt to throw the barrels towards the breech face, however you must remember that when fitting detachable draws the gun is already perfectly jointed and "on the face". So excessive bearing on the draw will throw the barrels towards the breech face as mentioned and therefore disrupt the joint and the gun is then "off the face", holding a gun up to the light that is bearing too hard on the draw shows a wedge shaped chink of light as the barrel rounds are now hitting the breech face first. That is what I was alluding to.

With regards to double rifles and detachable draws I personally feel that pulling the action out of the hook is excessive, and the amount it is pulled out of the hook has perhaps been exaggerated (for purposes of explanation of the principle) in Vic's description. I have Vics book and read that section a number of times nad it has always intrigued me. In my opinion when fitting draws it is more a matter of a distribution of pressures and not so much a physical movement of the action out of the hook. To my mind it makes no sense to not use the 10 odd mm's of hardened pin in conjunction with a well fitted draw, this would seem to be much less prone to wear over time. And if a draw is used with excessive bearing when it does wear the gun will very rapidly come off the face to quite a degree, as the pin is now not able to provide support. Also consider that pulling the action out of the hook as the barrels engage the draw will lead to a very pronounced two stage feel on opening and closing the gun.

Of course when no detachable draws are used then you have no choice but to joint the gun down equally between the hook, circle and breech face...as Steve has done with his gun. History has shown the old vintage guns holding up remarkably well using this same system, so I do not feel a detachable draw with too much bearing offers any advantages in terms of strength and longevity of the gun, but certianly aids in tightening a gun back up when a rejoint is needed.

It must be said I have never built a double rifle (although I plan to) and don't presume to put words in anyones mouth...It's just simply my thoughts on the matter.


transvaal
(.300 member)
08/04/17 11:15 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Mark;

I agree with you and it makes a great deal of sense to have both the draw and the hinge pin in equal support of the barrels during firing of the gun and or rifle.

As I was conceiving the idea of building shoe lump barrels and later during the actual building and jointing of the barrels to the Brno action, I jointed the barrels with the draw moving the front lump hook back from the hinge pin by .002". However, after giving consideration, I decided that it was foolish not to have equal distribution of forces during the ignition of the cartridge against the hinge pin and the draw.

Not all who replace hinge pins in double guns and rifles see the value of a hardened pin--such a preventing galling of the hook as it rotates against the hinge pin.


twobobbwana
(.333 member)
10/04/17 10:58 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Matabele,

"So excessive bearing on the draw will throw the barrels towards the breech face as mentioned and therefore disrupt the joint and the gun is then "off the face", holding a gun up to the light that is bearing too hard on the draw shows a wedge shaped chink of light as the barrel rounds are now hitting the breech face first. That is what I was alluding to."

Noted !!!!..............this would cause a gap ("off the face") until it is "blacked down" and the bearing/load is spread thereby putting the gun "back on face".........Makes sense to me.

"With regards to double rifles and detachable draws I personally feel that pulling the action out of the hook is excessive, and the amount it is pulled out of the hook has perhaps been exaggerated (for purposes of explanation of the principle) in Vic's description. I have Vic's book and read that section a number of times and it has always intrigued me. In my opinion when fitting draws it is more a matter of a distribution of pressures and not so much a physical movement of the action out of the hook. To my mind it makes no sense to not use the 10 odd mm's of hardened pin in conjunction with a well fitted draw, this would seem to be much less prone to wear over time. And if a draw is used with excessive bearing when it does wear the gun will very rapidly come off the face to quite a degree, as the pin is now not able to provide support. Also consider that pulling the action out of the hook as the barrels engage the draw will lead to a very pronounced two stage feel on opening and closing the gun."

Once again I agree that Vic has exaggerated this - relieving the forces on the hingepin - for illustration purposes. If the pin is not fitted to the hook then, upon firing, the hook would get a "run up" on the pin and cause battering...........and beat itself to death.

"History has shown the old vintage guns holding up remarkably well using this same system, so I do not feel a detachable draw with too much bearing offers any advantages in terms of strength and longevity of the gun, but certainly aids in tightening a gun back up when a rejoint is needed."

I have often wondered whether some guns don't hold up well due to lack of "spring" when jointed. Another concern is when fitting a new hingepin, thereby moving the barrels back to the breech face, is that they have to push the rear hook/lug out of bearing with the draw - thereby solving one issue and causing another. A removable draw would allow this condition to be addressed.

Transvaal,

".....I jointed the barrels with the draw moving the front lump hook back from the hinge pin by .002". However, after giving consideration, I decided that it was foolish not to have equal distribution of forces during the ignition of the cartridge against the hinge pin and the draw."

This makes the same sense to me. Refer my comments regard the hook getting a "run up" and battering the pin. I interpret Mr Venter's comments to mean that the fit of hook and pin was "eased" which may well mean just "taking smoke".

Vick Venters please chip in if you're watching this conversation.

Gents you do great work. Thank you for including us in this and answering my questions.


4al2
(.224 member)
10/04/17 10:07 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

I notice that is a 3 point disc remover tool,well was that custom made?And who made it?I been looking
for one.Can you get information on betting one?


transvaal
(.300 member)
11/04/17 03:02 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Three point striker disc installation and removal tools are made by using a rotary milling device (rotary table and so forth) mounted under a vertical mill or an extremely accurate drill press. The rotary device allow precise 120 degree intervals to be selected in order to drill the holes. Without such a rotary device they are difficult to make and impossible for most hobby machinist. I make them and use drill bit shafts for the three pins that I have cut into lengths with a small diamond wheel cutter from the appropriate size drill bit (they are hard and will not break easily). I use thread locker to keep them in place. For example I used a number 50 drill for the tool for this rifle. I do not a present have a photo of the final striker discs that I made for this rifle but, I made the disc where the three holes were outside the outer diameter area of the cartridge primer, in order that if there were a primer expansion because of a over pressure loads, that the primer will not have any "holes" to flow back into as it becomes somewhat plastic in the ignition of the over pressure cartridges.

To make one for your rifle or gun you must first know the diameter of the three holes you need, and the exact distance from the center point of the striker hole to the exact center point of the three outer holes. Generally you want this measurement to be =/- .001".


transvaal
(.300 member)
12/04/17 01:11 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Quote:

I notice that is a 3 point disc remover tool,well was that custom made?And who made it?I been looking
for one.Can you get information on betting one?




Allen;

It occurred to me that if you need a 3 point striker disc tool, send my a private message and I will try to make one to fit your firearm "by long distance". If you are not able to either remove a striker disc and send it to me, or not able to measure precisely what you need in size, you can make an impression of the striker disc with very thin paper and a standard graphite pencil. That may enough for me to make you one.


Demonwolf444
(.224 member)
13/04/17 02:30 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Thank you for sharing your knowledge here; i have an old which was converted from muzzle loading using a shoe lump and the original barrels; these barrels are past use now and i hope to save the gun by making a new set which is something i have never done, i have a lathe and a mill and some new tubes; just entirely lacking knowledge or experience of the process so all this is very useful info. I realize its not a minor undertaking!

tinker
(.416 member)
07/10/19 08:23 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

I just saw this and thought it would be great to have this conversation open again.

It's always nice to see what happens in the workshops of our fellow members.


baileybradshaw
(.333 member)
08/10/19 10:06 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

really nice work. I'm impressed

transvaal
(.300 member)
08/10/19 01:21 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Quote:

really nice work. I'm impressed




Bailey;

Those are kind and generous comments.


Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell


93x64mm
(.416 member)
09/10/19 07:00 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Wow - amazing work Transvaal!
Please continue to add to this thread, certainly gives us dunderheads an education in the workings of a double!


twobobbwana
(.333 member)
09/10/19 12:08 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Transvaal, Thank you for posting your project. You don't get to see much about "shoe lump" builds, though Alex Beer did post one at one stage.

Like your idea about your intercepting sear. Great "evolution" of that Brno lock.

Matabele thanks for your input on the draw insert I'd read Vic Venter's writing about them but never seen one.

Waidmannsheill could the wire cutter be used to cut the slot in the action as well as cutting the radius on the draw insert ???

Without access to a wire cutter might the draw insert be made via holding (horizontally) in a jig on your rotary table and machining the radius until it's ready to fit ??? Perhaps with a setup like that you could make a set of inserts, gradually increasing in thickness (radius) so that the gun could be more quickly rebuilt as it went "off face".

This is a fantastic topic and helps to demistify some of the processes involved in producing a double rifle. Thanks to all you gents for sharing your knowledge. It will certainly be interesting to see later technology like cnc applied to these processes, making "kits of parts" so that they can be hand fitted.............though fitting with smoke and file to arrive at a product worth owning is a source of great satisfaction.

Love the conversation and the exchanging of knowledge/ideas without the, ever too present, pissing competition that these sites seem to evoke.


transvaal
(.300 member)
09/10/19 01:01 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Matabele moved away to England several years ago (moved from his lovely Southern Africa) and now works for one of the English big 3 London gunmakers (H&H,Purdey & Boss). He will become the master gunmakers trained the English way that we never were. I have not heard from him in months and just after I write this I am going to send him an email.

Is Alex Beer alive and well in Tasmania? I only went over there a couple of times nearly 20 years ago, but I thought it was a very very lovely place and still pristine. I am glad you Australians do not let others trash your country.

Kindest Regards


DarylS
(.700 member)
09/10/19 03:56 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Making plans to visit Tasmania next March. Hmmmmmmmmm.

ruffcountry
(.300 member)
04/01/20 12:34 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

fantastic . thank you very much for posting

Chavez
(.224 member)
07/01/20 04:09 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Thank you very much for taking time to post this , it has been very helpful to me for building my first DR , the silver brazing has been a little scary , conserened about warping, so I have been practicing on some scrap parts for a while with varying degrees of success, I thing getting a ring torch well very helpful.

Rhodes
(.275 member)
03/02/20 06:28 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels


I was hoping Transvaal would have continued on with his original plans to build a second barrel set in 375 H&H FL Mag. It would make a fine pairing with the excellent work he's done so far.

Maybe with a little encouragement he might find the time to continue with the project.


transvaal
(.300 member)
04/02/20 05:07 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Quote:


I was hoping Transvaal would have continued on with his original plans to build a second barrel set in 375 H&H FL Mag. It would make a fine pairing with the excellent work he's done so far.

Maybe with a little encouragement he might find the time to continue with the project.




Dear Rhodes;

I am no longer able to build another set of shoe lump barrels as I sold my shop equipment which consisted of a vertical mill, a horizontal mill, a 10" swing long bed lathe and all of the tooling including my rotary indexer(which is a must to mount on the milling machine table to build shoe lump barrels). I retained a smaller lathe and my engraving equipment and microscope.

When I bought all the mills and lathe above, I had to disassemble them and bring them into my basement workshop piece by piece. You can imagine, I am sure how much difficulty it is for one person considerably past retirement age to remove the table, knee, the top spindle and motor from a vertical mill (the knee alone weighs several hundred pounds) move them all though a tiny basement door into the shop and then reassemble everything. Even more difficult was moving the milling main base through that tiny door. My vertical mill weighted less than a ton assembled, but still very heavy. I am fortunate to own a small 40 year old farm tractor which helped greatly to move the parts of the mills and lathe across the property and down and around the trees to the lower basement level of our house. As I am at advanced age I decided that my daughter(my only heir) would not be able to move or have moved all my shop equipment from the basement after I die, and therefore I decided to sell the equipment and move it out of the basement and reassemble it all--which took me more than a month or so.

The main reason that I posted how to build shoe lump barrels on this site was to help others who might decided to build a set. I hope that some of you will carry on the work. Make certain that you practice on a mock-up barrel and shoe lump set to learn how to braze the barrels to the lump securely.

I traveled down to Australia a number of times in the 1990's and 2000's on business. I was impressed how you lads there have such wonderful workshops out in your "sheds" behind your homes and even more impressed in how that you can take on any sort or task and complete straight away. I remember going into a home work shop shed in 1991 over in the Latrobe valley of a man who was changing the drivers controls side of a 1960's Chevrolet Corvette from Left side to Right side and fabricating most of what he needed for this task--I was amazed at his work.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell


Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
04/02/20 06:57 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Stephen, that is very kind of you to say about us here in Australia, we always try our best.

It is a pity that you had to go down the road that you did but I understand your concerns, I often think the same thing about all my machinery and I have significantly more than you. Hopefully my son will grow up to love engineering as much as I do.

Great post by the way, very nice machine work and some clever ideas.

Matt.


transvaal
(.300 member)
04/02/20 11:22 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Quote:

Stephen, that is very kind of you to say about us here in Australia, we always try our best.

It is a pity that you had to go down the road that you did but I understand your concerns, I often think the same thing about all my machinery and I have significantly more than you. Hopefully my son will grow up to love engineering as much as I do.

Great post by the way, very nice machine work and some clever ideas.

Matt.




I see that you live in or near Melbourne. I think that St. Kilda Street in Melbourne is one of the most lovely large city streets I have seen.

Kindest Regards;
Stephen Howell


Rhodes
(.275 member)
05/02/20 03:54 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels


Hi Transvaal,

Thanks for your reply. No need to explain your situation. You do great work and obviously enjoy what you do. I was merely posting in the hope that you were in a position to carry on with your passion.

Thank you again for sharing your work.

Best regards
Rhodes


Chavez
(.224 member)
06/02/20 12:00 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

I'm attempting to build a .400 Jeffery on the same type action you used ,mine is a 1957 -49 Brno , I have about the same tools you used as well , I would like to ask you a couple questions if you don't mind ,
Did you turn the chamber end of the barrels to 1 inch before you cut the relief ?
Did you have any trouble getting the hook pin out of the action ?
Is 45 % silver ok for the brazing , ? I have a forge but I think I'm going to build a ring torch.
Thanks again for taking the time to post the information and pictures of your rifle , it motivated me to get started again on my project.


transvaal
(.300 member)
06/02/20 10:22 AM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Chavez;

Yes, I turned the chamber end to 1 inch in diameter. Note: The cutting of the relief depth is for the barrels to seat down onto the shoe lump platform rounded slots where, after seating and brazing the center of the barrel chamber end will be at the dead center of the firing pin holes when the barrels are closed. Therefore the fitting of the shoe lump to the action face and action flats and hinge pin ("jointed") must be done prior to the barrel brazing. The thickness of the shoe lump platform also has to be calculated to ensure the centering of the barrel chambers to the firing pins.

No, I did not have problems removing the hinge pin from the action.

A ring torch or similar is prudent. Go to YouTube and watch the Verney-Carron video and watch how they braze the barrels to their shoe lumps.

That amount of silver is too low for me to consider using. Use something like Silvaloy 355. A silver braze that flows in the temp range of 1250-1275 degrees F with 55 to 60% silver. No cadmium.

Regards;


Chavez
(.224 member)
06/02/20 03:52 PM
Re: Building, regulating & engraving a DR with shoe lump barrels

Thank you for the reply, it will be a big help to me and I'm sure others as well .


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