| dudleybm |
| (.224 member) |
| 12/01/17 07:10 AM |
30-30 double rifle project.
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I have been fiddling away at this project for a little while and I figured I had enough material to post on it.
I picked up this gun back in September at an auction for the Bill Swarts estate. Bill was the barrel man and partner in the old Lefever Arms gunsmithing operation in Lee Center, NY. Bill had passed early last year (2016). In the auction was a lot of tools and parts as well as about 30 guns. I was not really looking to buy any guns at the auction, more the parts. But this one gun caught my eye. It was an unfinished project of Bill's. A double rifle built on a German 20g. ejector action. I assume the action was made by Sauer for a cottage maker. I had no idea what the caliber of the rifle was, but it looked to be .25 or .30cal just by looking at it. I ended up buying the gun for next to nothing since there was not really any other interest in it.
These photos show the condition of the gun as bought. There was a large muzzle spacer and blocky quarter rib with separate "hollow" rib in between and on bottom. The scope was affixed to the top of the rib and was not removable and obviously he never intended on having open sights on it. The tubes were rough turned still with everything soldered together. The extractors were built and the gun was finish chambered. I cast the chambers and ID'ed it as the common 30-30 Win. Not the most common choice for most double rifle builds, but great for North American hunting. And good because of the availability of shells for it.
I took the gun out and proofed it with some 45,000 psi hand loads and all went well. Then I shot it with some factory 170gr. big game loads and it was shooting all screwed up. About 8" apart at 50 yds and 14" apart at 100 yds. I would like to think that Bill regulated it, but i had no way of knowing for what since he was long passed.
I did not like the top rib setup on the barrels, so I figured since I was going to replace it anyway, it was not a big deal to re-regulate them. I knew the late Bob Hynden relatively well, so I conversed with him on the project and also bought a 24" 1pc. top rib from him for the gun.
I left the separate quarter rib on the barrels and removed everything else. This way I could do my regulation with the 4x scope that was on the gun. This helped a lot!
After some trips to the range and changing out the muzzle spacer after each firing, I got it dialed in nicely. See here the photos of 50 and 100yd targets.
I then installed a new lower rib to the barrel set once regulation was set. The new top rib is next to it.
I went to work striking down the rough turned barrels and getting them evened out so that there is no waviness in them when looking down the barrel set. This was much more easily done without the top rib on it. I also installed an additional block in-between the tubes for additional support in affixing a screw-on sling swivel mount.
I then started doing some initial machining on the top rib. I brought the quarter rib down to near level with the existing rib extension on the barrels. And did some profiling work on the front ramp to make it more attractive.
I will end up machining the quarter rib to directly accept a set of talley rings. And use a rear express sight as the recoil lug for them. Like Mr. Hynden liked to do. The photo below shows the initial mockup with a Leupold 1-4. But I am going to end up going with a Redfield Widefield 1-3/4 - 5x.
In it's current mocked up state with the Redfield scope it weighs 9 lbs. Not sure if there is any way to get the weight down any more than that. But that is not bad in my mind. I will end up restocking the gun and completely go over all finishes when said and done. Next task is finishing the machining of the top rib and get it soldered on.
Thanks for looking. I will update this thread as I can.
| HistoricBore |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/01/17 09:42 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Good project! I have an old Belgian 20 bore, and have the same idea, but not the skills. Good luck and good hunting!
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 12/01/17 10:23 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Its a real labour of love and will be great to see it with a big buck in the pic later on.
| lonewulf |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/01/17 10:30 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Great little project. Wish I had the skills for that sort of thing but alas, not so much.
Looking forward to your updates. Thanks.
| Vladymere |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/01/17 11:10 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Nice work on a nice project dudleybm! I applaud your skill and your motivation.
Vlad
| crshelton |
| (.333 member) |
| 12/01/17 01:30 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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That will be an elegant piece when all done.
Let me know if you need it tested on Texas deer or hogs!
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/01/17 01:39 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Brian the rifle is coming along nicely. Nice job on the regulation. Are you going to mane it a pistol grip stock.
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 12/01/17 06:12 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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I am always amazed by the skills of many members on NE.
A novice's question regarding the regulation. You regulated it before doing a lot of later work. Adding the ribs or soldering the new ones on, normal for regulation. But also changing the quarter rib, new and different scope and new stock to be fitted. Might not some of these changes affect the pre-done regulation? Thanks.
| 93x64mm |
| (.416 member) |
| 12/01/17 06:18 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Quote:
Good project! I have an old Belgian 20 bore, and have the same idea, but not the skills. Good luck and good hunting!
+1
This rifle has come along way & by is really starting to look the goods - wish I was capable of doing just that!
From what we've seen it can shoot half decently too!
Anything that get's in it's way will certainly be in very serious trouble.
Keep up the good work - glad to see a mate of yours project finally nearing completion!
93x64mm
| dudleybm |
| (.224 member) |
| 12/01/17 06:51 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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I do plan on restocking in a pistol grip. I like straight stocks for my shotguns, but for this rifle, i think a pistol grip is best.
I sure hope the regulation has not changed after installing the ribs. The regulation is set by the two spacer blocks inbetween the barrel tubes. In in the middle and one at the muzzle. And all my regulation was done off a lead sled so it is independant from human error pretty much. So the optics or mounting have nothing to do with it regulation is separate from sighting in.
Obviously i will shoot again to double check after installing the top rib.
| oldhoward |
| (.224 member) |
| 13/01/17 01:34 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Wow nice work! That action looks very familiar to me. Once owned one like that but in 16 gauge. Purchased new in Brooklyn, N.Y. Shotgun was destroyed, barrels broken and stock broken, my farther sold off the parts. I would like to see more pictures of the action if possible. The safety should say safe on when not engaged. Also we lived in upstate N.Y. at that time. That shotgun had the most spectacular figured wood I have ever seen on a gun.
oldhoward
| dudleybm |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/01/17 12:24 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Here are some additional photos of the action. and proof marks.
I also got with some other stuff from the auction a box full of ribbing. And in there was the original rib off the barrels of this gun. The maker was H. Barella and was marked Berlin & Suhl.
| oldhoward |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/01/17 02:34 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Thank you so much for the pictures. The one I owned had a different safety more rounded and safety was spelled out. The rest of the action and trigger guard are very similar. Brings back lots of memories.
Thanks,
oldhoward
| Aaron_Little |
| (.300 member) |
| 14/01/17 01:46 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Hate to bear bad news, but you're probably going to be regulating again. At least you'll be starting close!
There's also a chance that the gun will regulate different when fired in in a lead sled and off the shoulder.
| Waidmannsheil |
| (.400 member) |
| 14/01/17 08:15 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Looks very good, I particularly like the machining on the top rib, very clever.
Waidmannsheil.
| dudleybm |
| (.224 member) |
| 15/01/17 01:42 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Quote:
Hate to bear bad news, but you're probably going to be regulating again. At least you'll be starting close!
There's also a chance that the gun will regulate different when fired in in a lead sled and off the shoulder.
Why do you say i would need to re-regulate?
We will see. This is my first go-around messing around with this sort of stuff.
| Aaron_Little |
| (.300 member) |
| 17/01/17 05:02 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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The spread at the muzzles isn't the only thing that can effect regulation. The barrels can be squeezed together at any point by your wires and wedges which will also effect regulation. So if you have more pressure on one wedge than before, you'll now be shooting wider. Not as much pressure as before, now you're shooting closer or crossing. You may get lucky and have no change. Worst case scenario you are going to be starting over again with it very close.
| dudleybm |
| (.224 member) |
| 17/01/17 06:21 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Ok. Thanks for explaining. I was mostly just curious as to what factors may effect regulation at this point.
My tie wires for soldering the bottom rib on were at the points of the two spacers as to not squeeze the tubes. And the tie wire with cut nail between them was not very tight at all as i did not want to pull the tubes in. Any pressure was being applied by the cut nail and that was just enough to hold the rib down against the tubes.
I do plan on getting it back out to shoot one more time before installing the top rib for good. Or at least just tack the top rib down with a couple spots of solder in order to shoot it.
| MMBA |
| (.275 member) |
| 17/01/17 10:31 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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dudleybm that is a wonderful project. A double in 30-30 makes good sense to me! Please keep updating.
Thankyou
MMBA
| dudleybm |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/02/17 12:57 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Here is an update.
I got the machining on the rib done for the sights and scope mounts.
I decided to go with a simple dovetail setup for talley rings with the express sight acting as the recoil lug for the front scope mount. The rings drop down and slide forward and tighten with a quarter turn of the QD levers. The rear ring mounts right at the back of the rib and the existing rib extension on the barrels was thinned down enough to allow for the rear rings to drop down over it.
I did some ball mill cuts on the section of the rib in front of the express sight in order to style it some and match it to what I did on the front ramp.
I machined the front ramp with a 5mm dovetail for accepting a european style (push in from the front) sight.
| aromakr |
| (.375 member) |
| 20/02/17 07:07 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Dudly:
I noticed the firing pins had not been bushed, are you going to do that?
Bob
| dudleybm |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/02/17 08:45 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Have thought about it, but not that much yet.
| MMBA |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/02/17 11:25 AM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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Thankyou, keep it coming. Thoughtful solution to the sighting issues.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 20/02/17 01:38 PM |
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Re: 30-30 double rifle project.
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dudleybm - keep us updated - as well, I'd like to see how the regulation was effected by the finishing of the ribs, sights, etc.
Looks so NICE!
With a rifle like that, I could make it work for ALL my hunting, here in B.C.. moose, elk, bears, deer- you name it. With a rifle like that, you make it work.
Even better perhaps would be the .30/30 IMP - pretty much match a .303 without any more breech thrust than the standard .30/30. Re-regulation, of course.