| Capreolus |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/07/13 07:23 PM |
Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I wonder if you can help?
What calibres would work well in a .410 double rifle conversion?
There is a hole in the top barrel of the donor gun just ahead of the forearm so this will be a sleeving job.
I am working with a gunsmith on this project so he will be doing all the tricky stuff. This will be the first conversion project he has done and we are using this as a test-bed before moving on to a 12 gauge conversion based on a Simson SxS.
We will be trying to do this first conversion as economically as possible and calibre choice may be determined by what we can scrounge from the parts bin.
We can get hold of .22 rimfire barrels and .30 calibre takeoff barrels fairly easily but I am not sure that they would give us suitable choices for the action size.
In an ideal world would be your recomendations for calibre to be matched to a .410 frame?
| gwh |
| (.333 member) |
| 14/07/13 07:33 PM |
Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Very interested to hear what you come up with here. I have toyed with the idea of doing up a 375 JDJ (374/444 Marlin) on a shotgun action - I think the .410 action would be too small, but there are plenty of good options out there. Would a straight old .303 Brit work on the .410 action - would be classic and effective.
| Yochanan |
| (.375 member) |
| 14/07/13 07:46 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I would consider a 5,6x52R (22 High power). A grand old cartridge.
Cheers
| xausa |
| (.400 member) |
| 14/07/13 09:13 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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You might want to consider the .25-35 Winchester (6.5X52R) or the 6X52R Brettschneider (5.6X52R opened to 6mm). Both are relatively low pressure cartridges. The Brettschnieder was developed with insert barrels in mind. The brass for both cartridges can be formed from .30-30 Winchester cases.
I have a chambering reamer for the Brettschneider cartridge, which I would be glad to lend to you, assuming there would be no problems in mailing it over and back.
| spinna |
| (.275 member) |
| 14/07/13 09:40 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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22 Hornet, 25-20 or 32-20 come to mind
A nice little wildcat 30-20 (32-20 case necked down to take light 308 projectiles) could be the go if you have take off 30 cal barrels on hand.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 15/07/13 01:04 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I'd long thought one of the .410 doubles, with the full chokes rifled, might make an interesting 3" .40 cal black powder ctg. paradox for lighter, maybe 240gr. bullets. Never got around to doing this.
As to sleeving one, you'd need to bush the pins, I'm sure. Even a Hornet won't like a shotgun firing pin.
| bakposten |
| (.300 member) |
| 15/07/13 02:24 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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6*70r no doubt! Some danish gunsmiths made one on a 410 action a couple of years ago, looked great. Don`t have any pictures though..
| Ron_Vella |
| (.333 member) |
| 15/07/13 06:02 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I built one maybe 20 years ago on a Zabala .410 in .22 Hornet. It turned out very nice. There were photos of it on this site but I imagine that they are long gone. I have just begun building another one on a Zabala .410, this time in calibre 6.5x57R.
| Rell |
| (.375 member) |
| 15/07/13 07:25 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I realize you may not be able to scrounge for 35 cal barrels but maybe the 30 barrels can be rebored to handle 357 magnum rounds.
| Capreolus |
| (.224 member) |
| 15/07/13 08:19 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Hi Everyone thanks for all the suggestions and offers of help.
I had thought my choices were going to be limited to .22, .38 and 30-30 but you have opened up many more possibilities.
Would 30-30 work or does it develop too much pressure?
6,5x57R would be pretty amazing and it might be possible to find some old Swedish Mauser barrels.
I will try to post some pics of the donor action and you can let me know what you think.
| Caprivi |
| (.375 member) |
| 15/07/13 09:09 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I have oft thought of a decent Hammer 410 getting the "chop" for a set of 303 barrels would be a fine woods loafing rifle. Could/should be light enough to not be silly with a squib/rook load as well as a 215gr. for Elk or Elg'
| Ron_Vella |
| (.333 member) |
| 15/07/13 12:04 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Tradex in Montreal has a case of arsenal-new Swedish M38 barrels. I bought two and that's what I'm using for the 6.5x57R. Be advised that the 6.5x55 has a larger base diameter than the 6.5x57R so it's necessary to cut about 1/2" off the breech end in order to clean up the chamber with the 6.5x57R reamer.
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 15/07/13 02:20 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Quote:
I built one maybe 20 years ago on a Zabala .410 in .22 Hornet. It turned out very nice. There were photos of it on this site but I imagine that they are long gone. I have just begun building another one on a Zabala .410, this time in calibre 6.5x57R.
He of little faith ...
TOP: Her little sister, a .22 Hornet that I built on a CIL Model 172, .410 bore. These guns were built for Canadian Industries Ltd. by Zabala of Eibar, Spain. I absolutely love this little rifle. I regulated it with Lyman, 50 grain, cast, flat-nosed bullets at 1600 fps. It kills rabbits, and squirrels, and coyotes, with far more authority than a .22 LR.
CENTRE: The still incomplete .303. I'm still playing with the regulation to get it just right, before rust-bluing her.
BOTTOM: Her big sister, the .450 #2 NE that I built on a BRNO ZP-49, 12 bore. There is also a set of 12 gauge barrels which are fitted to the same action. This one goes to Africa with me next year to take another buffalo.
Photo # 1 shows them top to bottom in the order in which I built them,
Top is a 12 gauge rifle
Second is a .22 Hornet
Third is a .450 #2 Nitro Express
Bottom is the .303 British
This photo is from the opposite side and the order is reversed
Same as above. I hope that these photos give even a slight idea of the beautiful, deep, lustrous blue that I was able to achieve with this product. If you've been thinking about trying it, go ahead. It's not rocket science at all, just follow the directions and keep everything 100% oil and grease free.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=122636&an=&page=0&vc=1
| Capreolus |
| (.224 member) |
| 15/07/13 03:20 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Those doubles look fantastic!
Each year I go on a driven boar trip to Croatia and as a Brit I can hear the race memory of the .303 calling to me - Now where can I find a worn out Greener that needs bringing back to life!!!
We can brobably get hold of .303 barrels without much difficulty - can I just check that the .410 action would be up to the job?
| Ckhobart |
| (.275 member) |
| 15/07/13 06:31 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Interesting caliber suggestions! I look forward to your progress sir
| Caprivi |
| (.375 member) |
| 16/07/13 12:03 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Quote:
We can brobably get hold of .303 barrels without much difficulty - can I just check that the .410 action would be up to the job?
Ron's is on a 20ga as is noted in the link.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=122636&an=&page=0&vc=1
But has stated that his forthcoming 6.5 is on a .410frame, obviously the .303 is off the same headsize but at a reduced operating pressure.....So ????
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 16/07/13 12:22 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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http://kwk.us/pressures.html
| Ron_Vella |
| (.333 member) |
| 16/07/13 12:48 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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John,
Thanks for finding those photos. I guess sometimes being a "computer nerd" has its advantages, LOLOLOL! I had forgotten how nice they looked together. When I've finished rust bluing and stock finishing on my 9.3x74R I'll post a photo of six of them together.
Best,
Ron.
| Rule303 |
| (.416 member) |
| 16/07/13 06:48 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Nice looking doubles there Ron.
| HistoricBore |
| (.300 member) |
| 16/07/13 07:37 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I have a Midland hammer .410 double shotgun (made in the 1920s) that was converted by its original owner, a 'proper' gunsmith, for his own use. He sleeved it using old SMLE .303 barrels (hence the left-handed rifling) and chambered it in .32-20, so it is really a double Rook rifle. It is regulated for loads around the speed of sound. I did load a few up to 1900 fps but the regulation went to pot and it was reluctant to open because of the primers flowing back around the firing pin.
It is very happy with both nitro and smokeless loads. It is the hungriest rifle that I own because whenever I turn up at the range someone will say "What's that?" "I've never seen one of those before" "Can I just try a couple of shots with it..."
It is a project that is well worth doing. SMLE barrels are thinner than No. 4 .303 barrels, so make better tubes. I know experts will say that the rifling is too fast for that calibre, but it shoots!
Depending on where you are in Britain we could meet up at Bisley for a viewing - send me a PM. Of course you will need to have "Good reason" to get it onto your Firearms Certificate depending on which county you live in. .32-20 is easy to load and components are easy, really. Don't try it on wild boar, though; they will get really WILD!
| Birdhunter50 |
| (.375 member) |
| 16/07/13 08:01 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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If it were my gun to do, I would not go over a .22 Hornet or a 32/20 Winchester. Both are very handy woods rifles and do fine on varmits. Bob
| doubleriflejack |
| (.333 member) |
| 16/07/13 08:04 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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"What calibres would work well in a .410 double rifle conversion"
Don't get carried away with yourself, too much enthusiasm is not a good thing, when you are considering such issues. I would say that, for nitro cartridges, you should do as Ron Villa has done, and stick with .22 hornet, or anything else with similar, or less, rearward thrust to action, while allowing for chamber, barrel, diameter comparable to your .410. That means that .303 is out of the question. You would be well advised to first read W. Ellis Brown's book on converting double shotguns to double rifles.
| Capreolus |
| (.224 member) |
| 16/07/13 08:01 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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If I stop looking at the pictures of Rons guns for long enough the capacity for rational thought returns slowly to me.
As a first project I think the Hornet is a very sound and useful selection. So I will begin assembling the necessary parts.
Because the top barrel is holed it will have to be sleeved but the bottom barrel could work with a liner or insert.
This would certainly give us a greater range of techniques to try out but I would be happy to get your thoughts on what would work best or be easiest (KISS Vs Murphy).
As this project becomes a reality I am just starting to realise the full extent of my ignorance and lack of knowledge - so your suggestions and expertise are massively appreciated and please keep the suggestions coming.
Question:
If an insert is centrered at the breech and at the muzzle of the of the host barrel is it possible to fit an eccentrically bored collet on the thinner middle part of the liner that can be rotated to provide a means of regulating the point of impact?
Presumably the distance of the collet from the muzzle would also affect the angle of deflection?
If any of you are UK based and are planning to visit the CLA Game this weekend it looks as though the weather is going to be hot and it would be a real pleasure to offer you a cold beer on the Hunting Agency stand on Gunmakers Row
Once again thanks for your help on this.
Mike
| doubleriflejack |
| (.333 member) |
| 17/07/13 04:24 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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"Because the top barrel is holed it will have to be sleeved but the bottom barrel could work with a liner or insert."
Yes, but no need to reinvent the wheel. If job is worth doing, it is worth doing correctly, nicely, and your final product will be worth more in the end, meaning I strongly suggest that you forget about lining any barrel. Cut both barrels off, forming a nice compact monoblock, bore & ream that monoblock to fit in pair of rifle barrels. Brown and Ron Villa thread part or all of the monoblock and barrels to screw and soft solder them in place. That threading isn't necessary, as simple soldering alone will work quite well, especially for something like a .22 hornet. Again, get W. Ellis Brown's book on conversions, 2nd edition only for updated version of book (it is available online). That will answer your regulation questions and many others as well. Also, do search of Ron Villa's postings on his conversions, on this website, as he shows step by step pictures of the operations for conversion. Ron knows what he is doing, obviously, and I highly recommend paying attention to what he has said and done regarding this topic.
| doubleriflejack |
| (.333 member) |
| 17/07/13 04:26 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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"Because the top barrel is holed it will have to be sleeved but the bottom barrel could work with a liner or insert."
Yes, but no need to reinvent the wheel. If job is worth doing, it is worth doing correctly, nicely, and your final product will be worth more in the end, meaning I strongly suggest that you forget about lining any barrel. Cut both barrels off, forming a nice compact monoblock, bore & ream that monoblock to fit in pair of rifle barrels. Brown and Ron Villa thread part or all of the monoblock and barrels to screw and soft solder them in place. That threading isn't necessary, as simple soldering alone will work quite well, especially for something like a .22 hornet. Again, get W. Ellis Brown's book on conversions, 2nd edition only for updated version of book (it is available online). That will answer your regulation questions and many others as well. Also, do search of Ron Villa's postings on his conversions, on this website, as he shows step by step pictures of the operations for conversion. Ron knows what he is doing, obviously, and I highly recommend paying attention to what he has said and done regarding this topic.
| Capreolus |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/07/13 09:02 PM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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I have just ordered Ellis Browns book and eagerly await its arrival.
Perhaps then some of my questions will be a little better informed.
The Game Fair was great fun with some very interesting things on show.
The first was an "India" .700 Nitro Express by William Evans, bejewelled, gillded and encrusted within an inch of its life, which however was eclipsed by one of their most delicate .243 sxs you could ever imagine.
A real show stopper for me was the Chapuis 9,3 x74R sxs built on a 28 gauge frame that was as light and responsive as a conductors baton.
Finally there was an old Spanish 20 bore sxs with semi-pistol grip, cheek piece, fences, Greener cross bolt. Disc set strikers and provision for sling swivels on the under-rib (£250 on the price ticket).
I thought I would check with the book before trying to buy the gun. The gunshop is reasonably close and might offer a bit of a deal.
I should have taken some photos but we were a bit busy on the stand with most of the enquiries being about driven boar hunts in Croatia.
| doubleriflejack |
| (.333 member) |
| 23/07/13 04:03 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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You said, "Finally there was an old Spanish 20 bore sxs with semi-pistol grip, cheek piece, fences, Greener cross bolt. Disc set strikers and provision for sling swivels on the under-rib (£250 on the price ticket).
I thought I would check with the book before trying to buy the gun."
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If you are considering this for 9.3x74R conversion, I would feel more comfortable about it if it were proofed for a magnum 20 gauge, which it may be, you didn't say, based on what I previously had told you about my Francotte conversion and similar conversions that I have made. However, such a conversion may very well work on a non magnum 20 gauge, but that is unproven ground, in my experience, as I have never done that, and I know nobody who has.
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You said, "Chapuis 9,3 x74R sxs built on a 28 gauge frame that was as light and responsive as a conductors baton."
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Bear in mind, that this Chapuis 9.3, on a 28 gauge frame, is on a modern day frame made from high strength modern alloy steel, generally many times stronger than common mild steel frames used in the past for classic double guns/rifles, so one cannot directly compare modern high strength alloy steel frames to old classic frames of the past. Many guys overlook this very important issue, since they know no better. Such ignorance can lead to broken frames, during proofing, or worse.
| Capreolus |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/07/13 08:09 AM |
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Re: Calibres for a .410 double rifle conversion
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Let me just reassure you that all potential double rifle projects are on hold until I have at least read the book!
In regard to the Chapuis - I was captivated by it's balance, pointability and responsiveness, what it would be like to shoot I don't know. The salesman however assured me that recoil was not an issue and that the £4.5k would be money well spent!
Does anyone have a really good accountant who doesn't ask questions about the amount of "Projection Equipment" I invest in each year?! I think I may be able to invest in one more "Distance Learning Tool" this financial period.