| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/05/11 09:11 PM |
Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Got to thinking the other day, after Chapuisarmes's post about a Woodleigh Hydro as a profile for a cast bullet.
I posed the question to Veral Smith, of LBT moulds in Idaho, and this is the response I got, verbatim.
"A bullet with that shape could not be knocked out of a mold, nor could the mold be opened. As I see it, the principle behind that profile, which has a very poor flight form, by the way, is that it causes a fairly hard solid bullet to expand to an ideal mushroom slightly larger than bullet diameter, which is extremely deadly and will consistently penetrate straight and true. -- It would not be good with lead however, because of the weaker metal. One could get the same effect within a much more limited velocity range than the woodleigh, by hollow pointing one of my LFN profiles in a lathe, and experimenting with the hollow point shape till bullets expand slightly. You'd have to use a low antimony alloy heat treated to around 16 bhn or the expanded portion would crumble and not hold shape."
Thought this might be of some interest as to why it most likely would not work as a cast bullet.
I think the other fly in the ointment might be that the Hydro's are a patented product, so copying one as a cast bullet might just not be the correct thing to do.
Regards,
David.
| AFRO408 |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/05/11 09:25 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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I've been giving that some thought as well and I reckon that a stubby shaped nose, without the conical depression, just a flat nose ( a bit like the xxxx stubby with the lid on) and cast in hard lead, should give a similar performance.
A shape like this would easily come out of the mould halves.
The thing is, you don't want any expansion at all, the nose shape must stay as is for it to work.
I haven't made any boolit moulds for years, but I might just give this idea a go, just to see what the results are.
| CHAPUISARMES |
| (.416 member) |
| 02/05/11 09:27 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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I think if you check the patented description, there only has to be 'X' amount of changes to make it a different product. One, it's made of lead and play with the grooves,number,depth,width etc. That's four... Just a thought....
.
| JabaliHunter |
| (.400 member) |
| 02/05/11 11:28 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
As I see it, the principle behind that profile, which has a very poor flight form, by the way, is that it causes a fairly hard solid bullet to expand to an ideal mushroom slightly larger than bullet diameter, which is extremely deadly and will consistently penetrate straight and true.
Did you set him straight?
As I understand it, they are designed not to deform, but create a wound channel by means of a 'pressure ring' around the bullet.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/05/11 01:42 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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The cup-shaped cavity on the nose, which causes cavitation in the target material with a solid bullet, would prevent the mould blocks from opening. The rest of the design is OK by the appearance of it from the standpoint of making the mould- on a lathe or with a cherry.
As a flat nose with the rest of the design, it would work fine and give some minor expansion(dependingon alloy and hardness), but much care has to be practised when casting long bullets. They have a tendency to bend when contacting the folded towel or whatever is used to cushion the bulelts as they drop from the mould.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/05/11 01:45 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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"which has a very poor flight form"
Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/05/11 03:00 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
"which has a very poor flight form"
Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.
Yep I picked that up straight off also..Federal Cartridge Co in the US got 1/2 a moa with 375`s in their testing I was informed.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/05/11 03:04 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:Quote:
"which has a very poor flight form"
Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.
Yep I picked that up straight off also..Federal Cartridge Co in the US got 1/2 a moa with 375`s in their testing I was informed.
Gryph,
I was thinking of you and a few other deer hunters in particular when I read that comment (I have only shot them out of a DR and seen the accuracy out of Bolt guns).
.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/05/11 05:44 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
"which has a very poor flight form"
Interesting comments considering those I know who have shot them have got superb accuracy out of the guns.
Just possibly, or probably, accuracy wasn't what he was referring to, I'd suspect. The compound radius (venturified shoulder and cup point) at the nose probably has problems with additional atmosphere interferance, ie: greatly reducing it's ballistic form over what would normally happen with a common, ogive, flat or round nosed bullet. This is prossibly what he was referring to, not absolute accuracy.
A straight sided cylinder of lead or copper will shoot MOA at 100yards and likely create even more tissue disruption than the Hydro bullet, but has a poor flight form.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/05/11 05:48 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Understand.
Not sure a straight sided cylinder would do as you say,
I thought it was the shape at the front that caused the
bubble ?
Re poor flight form, at the ranges they are likely to be used,
I doubt it would have any affect. I might ask though.
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 03/05/11 06:30 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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I thought this might get some discussion going, which is very good.
I took the poor flight form comment as to mean the Ballistic co-efficient of the projectile, the ability of the bullet to fly through the air with the minumum of resistance.
BC of a Hydro would no doubt be terrible, but as others have said, at the ranges they are likely to be used, it wouldn't matter a bit.
(Has anyone used Hydro's for distances over 200 yards to hunt with, or check drop on paper?)
I still think if a mould was made with a self-centering pin for the depression in the nose, and a few small design tweaks to the radiused edge of the nose shape, they could be cast in a mould and be successfully made.
I suppose the question then would be "Why", when we already have a lot of good cast designs that do work.
I still think it would be a very interesting exercise though.
Regards,
David.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/05/11 06:37 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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450
Interesting exercise ?
For the number that would be shot (at game), would it be worth it ?
I do sometimes think that a lot of time and effort is spent on some things that may be better spent on others ???? Just my HO.
Re the 200 comment, how many shots are really taken out past 250 where it might start to have an effect.
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/05/11 06:55 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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(Has anyone used Hydro's for distances over 200 yards to hunt with, or check drop on paper?)
the actual MOA achieved by the Fed Cart Co was 0ne inch @ 200 yards hence the 1/2 @ 100.
I was given this mail from John M who invented the bullet.
| FATBOY404 |
| (.400 member) |
| 03/05/11 08:10 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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I think the BC of a Hydro is around .20.
The answer would be,would you shoot a deer/whatever with a normal FMJ at 300 yards. Most people would say "no" so why would you do it with a Hydro ?.
No matter what your thoughts most people agree that the Hydro does cause more damage than a standard FMJ.
The Hydro works because it keeps that nose shape. Lead wouldn't hold it's shape so in my opinion it wouldn't work.
That is why Woodliegh are making the Hydro with a stainless steel tip now as well,indestructible.
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/05/11 10:57 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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That is why Woodleigh are making the Hydro with a stainless steel tip now as well,indestructible.
I had one of those in my claw a few years ago and was very very impressed with them,a remarkable and innovative projectile for sure.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/05/11 01:01 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Would I not normally use a solid for deer at 300yards - no, you're right, absolutely right, but I would use a bullet that acted like a solid as well as acting like a soft because that was the bullet I carried due to it's abilities to do both jobs. I think the design allows it's use for both games, and is why Rod and I were so intrigued by them.
Yes - David - the cupped cavity could very easily be handled with a plug adnthe rest of the bullet, an easy lathe job for someone like Veral.
Perhaps if suggested that the cup was necessary, and this is the bullet I want you to make me, he might capitulate.
| Con |
| (.333 member) |
| 04/05/11 03:07 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
The Hydro works because it keeps that nose shape. Lead wouldn't hold it's shape so in my opinion it wouldn't work.
In testing of FN lead hard cast pills at speed (on AR Big Bores forum) ... the edges erode away until you end up with a kind of truncated cone shape.
The Hydro in comparison comes into its own as speed is increased. But bugger me they refuse to feed in my Ruger's built to wildcats.
Cheers...
Con
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 04/05/11 03:11 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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seating them out too far?
| Altamaha |
| (.333 member) |
| 25/10/11 11:08 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Close but no cigar:
460 grain cast for the 458 Win Mag and other 458’s. Alloy is 20 pounds wheel weights to 1 pound Babbitt. The Babbitt I used is 90 per cent tin, 7 per cent antimony and 3 per cent copper. Gas checked, sized and lubed. I made the mold several years ago, thinking about making another with more flat area up front. Front grove is the crimp groove to keep the bullets in place under recoil (for the cartridges in the magazine that is). Front of the bullet ahead of the crimp groove is bore diameter.
| Altamaha |
| (.333 member) |
| 25/10/11 11:17 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
The cup-shaped cavity on the nose, which causes cavitation in the target material with a solid bullet, would prevent the mould blocks from opening. The rest of the design is OK by the appearance of it from the standpoint of making the mould- on a lathe or with a cherry.
As a flat nose with the rest of the design, it would work fine and give some minor expansion(dependingon alloy and hardness), but much care has to be practised when casting long bullets. They have a tendency to bend when contacting the folded towel or whatever is used to cushion the bulelts as they drop from the mould.
Real easy to cast a cup nose, just make up a mold similar to a hollow point mold with the removable nose pin.
Or, run the bullets through a lathe, use a round nose end mill in the tailstock chuck.
Or, drill the nose of the bullet and press in a stainless steel flat rivett.
Possibilities are endless.
| aromakr |
| (.375 member) |
| 25/10/11 04:19 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Altmaha:
I have a mold almost a clone of that one, for my 9.3X74R it is extremely accurate. Hope to punch a hole in something this fall to see how it performs on flesh.
Bob
| Altamaha |
| (.333 member) |
| 26/10/11 12:23 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
Altmaha:
I have a mold almost a clone of that one, for my 9.3X74R it is extremely accurate. Hope to punch a hole in something this fall to see how it performs on flesh.
Bob
Post some photos of the bullets!
| aromakr |
| (.375 member) |
| 26/10/11 05:27 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Altamaha:
I would if I could figure out how to post photo's on this site.
Bob
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 26/10/11 02:37 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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The Hydro does have a poor flight form. That is a ballistic fact. As for most shooting, who cares, since it takes place at shorter ranges than those where the poor form makes for noticeable degradation in performance.
No one has as yet made a better big bore cast bullet than the .458 caliber 402 grain {wheelweights} Lee Hollow Point. Front HP explodes and sheds and leaves a 300+ grain shaft to penetrate deeply. Just like a Nosler Partition.
Too bad they don't make it anymore. Nothing is like it.
I can only imagine a 550-600 grain version for the .450-class Nitro guns where the bullet could be started at 1700+ fps. An expanding bullet with near FMJ penetration. Good bloodletting near impact and a hole on the other side of whatever walks. You Africans and Aussies shooting all that heavy game would put poor Woodleigh out of business as you'd roll all your own for darn near free...
| Rule303 |
| (.416 member) |
| 26/10/11 07:07 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
I think the BC of a Hydro is around .20.
That is why Woodliegh are making the Hydro with a stainless steel tip now as well,indestructible.
Anti armour ammo comes to mind when you speak of a Hydro with a Stainless Tip.
That round would take some stopping.Con the hydros wont feed in my 35Sambar. Have to single load. Well I guess I can seat them out a bit further and drive them a bit harder.
Wonder if a lead one could be made hard enough not to bend on impact. If so one of these out of a 45-70 should be good Water Buffalo medicine.
| Altamaha |
| (.333 member) |
| 27/10/11 12:10 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
The Hydro does have a poor flight form. That is a ballistic fact. As for most shooting, who cares, since it takes place at shorter ranges than those where the poor form makes for noticeable degradation in performance.
No one has as yet made a better big bore cast bullet than the .458 caliber 402 grain {wheelweights} Lee Hollow Point. Front HP explodes and sheds and leaves a 300+ grain shaft to penetrate deeply. Just like a Nosler Partition.
Too bad they don't make it anymore. Nothing is like it.
I can only imagine a 550-600 grain version for the .450-class Nitro guns where the bullet could be started at 1700+ fps. An expanding bullet with near FMJ penetration. Good bloodletting near impact and a hole on the other side of whatever walks. You Africans and Aussies shooting all that heavy game would put poor Woodleigh out of business as you'd roll all your own for darn near free...
You are making me think up another project. A longer bullet than the ones shown in my photos, but hollow point. I have a couple of hollow point 44 molds, would be real easy to make up a similar one in 458. The long bullet would work fine in my 45-110 Sharpes replica.
If only I lived in the land down under, would be fun on the buffalo.
| 9.3x57 |
| (.450 member) |
| 27/10/11 01:29 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Alta;
HP's have long gotten a ridiculously unnecessary bad rap.
MOST HP's are made for shallow penetration or near fragmentation of the bullet, but they need not be. A long for caliber cast bullet w/ HP offers all the benefits of the HP PLUS the benefits of deep penetration common to cast bullets and FMJ's.
Seriously, a .458 caliber 500-600 grain properly designed HP cast bullet would do well on most all shots on heavy game. As you know, cast bullets can be made quite hard.
Years ago Jack Lott wrote a piece about a friend of his that lived in Thailand and illegally, I think} shot big whatever-they-call-tehm there buff. He only had a limited supply of factory bullets for the .458 Win Mag rifle he shot and used them, IIRC, in his .458 Lott Jack built for him. The .458 Win was carried by his "gunbearer" or servant or something and got the cast ones. Stroy short, Jack said the cast bullets performed very well at .458 Win Mag velocities and I see no reason to argue. A 500 grain hardened, cast bullet fired at 2000 fps should do everything a FMJ does. And it is hard to the core, not just hard at the jacket surface like some FMJ's.
It is dumbbraindead to harden wheelweights. Drop'em straight from the mold to a bucket of water PLACED SO NO WATER EVER GETS IN THE MELT.
Anyway, a longish bullet with a good HP should produce "custom bullet" performance on big game. In .458 if 80 or even 100 grains was blown off leaving a shaft of 400-420 grains to penetrate it should produce everything a guy wants in an expanding bullet on big game.
| Altamaha |
| (.333 member) |
| 27/10/11 07:39 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Agreed on all counts.
I had a chat with a PH many years ago, seems he and his mates were playing with hard cast bullets in a 458 Lott by firing them into dead elephants. Penetration was equal to, sometimes better, than FMJ Hornady's.
After I finish up a couple of stocks I will play around with making some molds. I have a truck load of hard pipe lead from a mill demolition, the stuff casts very well and is a bit harder than wheel weight lead. A little of the above mentioned babbitt helps it flow out real nice in the molds.
Advantage of the 45-110 is I may use very long bullets!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 17/12/11 06:29 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Came across this thread and thought I'd add what was noted in a written commmunication between myself and Elmer Keith, back in about 79 or 80. Elmer suggested upon questioning, that I go ahead and load the 550gr. Lyman bullets, "hard cast" - about brinel 16 so as to not make them too brittle and shoot anything in Africa with them I wanted.
At that time, my two best loads were getting 1,975fps and 2,000fps with the heavy cast bullets and with with wonderful accuracy from my 'little' .458 2" that had a long throat. I also told him I was getting 2,050 with a 510 Winchester solids and he said to go with the cast bullet with no further mention as to why. He noted they'd be quite capable if placed properly.
Of course, the Lyman 550gr. had a very wide, flat nose, which creates cavitation in excess of that produced by a round nose.
I highly value our phone conversations and written correspondence of so long ago. Elmer was responsible for the purchase of my first M29 4" as my duty revolver, and in return for a very close friend of mine, also a policeman at that time, for buying his.
| eljefedouble |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/12/11 03:26 PM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Daryl, in the 80's,I read about a handgun hard cast bullet by Dean Grennel. Labelled the ' flying ashtray' had its roots in Elmer's design. IIRC, it performed splendidly at 44Mag velocities in a handgun.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 26/12/11 05:37 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Quote:
Daryl, in the 80's,I read about a handgun hard cast bullet by Dean Grennel. Labelled the ' flying ashtray' had its roots in Elmer's design. IIRC, it performed splendidly at 44Mag velocities in a handgun.
I wasn't aware of a cast bullet back then called a "Flying Ashtray", however that moniker was 'also?' attributed to the .451" pistol/revolver Hollow Point bullet made by Speer weighing 200gr. It had a HUGE opening on it's nose, hense the "Flying Ashtray" moniker.
We used to load it to about 1,050fps in the Colt New Service or .45 ACP and it made wonderful cavities in mud, clay and feral dogs. On hard objects like windshields, car doors, or wood, the nose opening would close over and it would hike on through like a solid, although generaly tumbling.
| eljefedouble |
| (.300 member) |
| 22/03/12 12:41 AM |
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Re: Woodleigh Hydro as a cast bullet
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Just to revive an interesting topic- ulterior motive being I want to learn and start casting
But those big lead pills pique my interest.Having used the Hydros in my 9.3, i was initially sceptical of the 'flight worthiness', and yes, I've tried em upto 200m when I lived in Qld.-bloody smashing.In 2 words? Woody's RULE.