CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 16/04/11 11:13 AM |
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Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Here we have a new forum, and this is my first post on it. Many of you have already seen my little article on certain paper patching techniques, but I'll link it here again.
Please note that the bullets being used in my demonstration are bullets I cast from the original Alexander Henry mould that came with, and is numbered to my .577 BPE.
Here it is:
A Few Tricks With Paper Patched Bullets
Welcome to 450_Ackley as our newest moderator here at NE.com.
Curl
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 16/04/11 06:50 PM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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CptCurl,
A very good article, Thanks for sharing it with us on N.E.
I've never shot any paper patched bullets myself, but I do have access to a setup, it's a swaging setup to swage pure lead bullets that are then paper patched up to 458 cal or so.
I probably should go and see the gentleman and make a few slugs to patch up to try in my 450 NE.
Regards,
David.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 17/04/11 03:10 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Excellent article, Curl. What is the diameter of the bullets after patching and drying and the groove diameter of the barrel? If it was in the text or on a picture, I must have missed it.
I also use Beeswax/Vaseline for lube, a little stiffer than yours, for both grooved lubed and paper patched bullets. I use a 60:40 mix BW:Vas. This is an excelelnt lube in large bores for both black powder loads and for smokeless loads.
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 17/04/11 03:39 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Good step by step process for the paper patched projectile. Thanks Curl
Daryl
Re: the Beeswax/Vaseline
Frank Findlow recommends the same mixture for making grease cookies for bore rifles. It works well.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 17/04/11 04:20 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Daryl,
Looks like I'm getting .5865" after patching and drying. I must confess I don't remember the groove diameter of my rifle. Of course, it's a Henry rifle, so the tubes will be slightly tapered from breech to muzzles. With Henry barrels I believe the relevant measurement is just ahead of the chambers and the leade. Everything else takes care of itself. I would have gotten those measurements when I did chamber casts.
You probably know that with paper patched bullets the actual measurement is not the whole story. Thickness of the patch has to be manipulated using different weights and compositions of paper until everything works just right.
I have two nice A. Henry .450 BPE rifles, one of which is accompanied by its original mould, numbered to the rifle. I've not yet poured lead into that mould, but I do intend to do so. It's a PPB also. Shamefully, I've been shooting jacketed bullets in those rifles.
The .577 is on the left and the hammerless .450 on the right, both with their original moulds.
Curl
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 17/04/11 06:29 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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CptCurl, a few questions on paper patched with blackpowder loads if I may,
If you wish to use paper patched with blackpowder, do you still use a grease cookie, and if so, do you need to have a layer of beeswax between the powder and the grease cookie, and then again between the cookie and the projectile?
To keep the paper patch from migrating lube softening the patch, or does it not matter?
Regards,
David.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 18/04/11 02:13 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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David,
I don't have any experience using paper patched bullets with black powder. In fact, I haven't used black powder in any cartridge firearms except for a 12 bore rifle.
I would refer you to Paul Matthews' book The Paper Jacket for details on PPB's with black powder. He goes to length in his discussions.
Curl
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 18/04/11 09:16 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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I've used real black powder with paper patched bullets in both Sharps and Rolling Block rifles. I use a grease cookie of the same mix of BW and Vas. as on grooved bullets and wiped on the patched bullt. 60:40. Paul's "The Paper Jacket" is the reason I do this. I use a wax paper disk between the compressed powder (separate step with a plunger) and the base wad of card material, then the bullet. I see in subsequent books, he switched to using bee-brood wax wafers, but I stayed with wax paper because they work and are free. I use a sharpened case to cut those wads against a ply cutting board. You can cut many layers at once, as many as you want, if using a drill press for power.
With real BP, the bullet does not have to be larger than bore size for normal rifling to about .006" depth. That-is, the patched bullet's diameter can barely engrave the rifling- barely touching, yet the accuracy will be as good as perfectly fitting bullets. This, I've done in both Sharps and Rolling Blocks - as per Paul's directions.
ie: .451" bore size, .451" to .452" patched bullet, where the patched bullet can be shoved the entire length of the bore with barely making land marks upon the patch. This was similar to the fit of original Sharps ammo in most of the rifles, although the bullet was tapered, normally, sightly larger at the base.
The bullets must be what today would be considered soft indeed. some get best results with 40:1 lead to tin, whereas I found 50/50 WW and pure lead was good - somewhat harder than 40:1. My powder charges were 85gr. in the .50rifle with 500gr. patched bullet and 122gr. in the 3 1/4" .45cal. rifle with a 580gr. PP bullet. My brothers shot identically sized bullets in his .45 3 1/4" for moa accuracy using a light 400gr.PP bullet and only 100gr. 2f - compressed with 8, I think it was, 1/10" monopoly board wads. His rifle's best accuracy was 1 1/2" at 100meters and 2 1/2" at 200 yards, slightly better in minutes of angle farther out.
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/04/11 05:54 PM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Thanks Daryl, I'll have to order a copy of The Paper Jacket and read it, I have most of Paul's other books but not that one, went out of print for a while, but I see it's available again.
Regards,
David.
| 458Shooter |
| (.224 member) |
| 15/07/11 01:41 PM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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I have shot a lot of 458 diameter bullets that have been Teflon taped, this patches to correct size and and lube isn't required. It's faster than paper and results are excellent.
The same Teflon tape process works for 303 British just as well, I have used the tape method with cast bullets that were gas checked and plain based.
| Homer |
| (.416 member) |
| 16/07/11 07:36 PM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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G'Day Fella's,
Capt Curl, thank you for your wonderful thread on Paper Patching!
I have a question on this subject.
If I remember correctly, I thought you needed to use a particular type of paper or parchment, to make these patches out of? Something to do with the Clay content of normal paper, or something similar?
Looking forward to some replies on this.
Doh!
Homer
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 17/07/11 03:57 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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High cotton content, Homer - long fibres. On the other hand target paper has very short fibers, and that's why you don't get long tears with slow moving bullets, but nice round holes.
Most printer/typewriting paper has high cotton content and longer fibers, hense it tears more easily in one directions than the other.
Paper has a grain structure, just like a tree. It will tear/break jagged and crooked against the grain, whereas the tear or split will be with the grain.
The directions on paper patching usually say to tear the paper across a couple corners. One attempt will tear across the corner and the other will rip the length of the paper. The length rip shows the direction of the fibers in the paper. It always (I think) runs one end to the other, or is it across? (Mine runs lengthwise.)
The long part of the paper patch should be 'with' the grain, so as it is wrapped around the bullet, the length of the fibers go around it, giving strength to the patch.
Note there are 4 schools of thought here - some don't care which way the grain runs, others have the grain running around the bullet as described and others yet want the grain to run vertically. The 4th, take great pains to have th grain run parallel with the rifling at it's rate of twist.
I would expect the grain running around the circumference of the bullet would give the highest paper strength, while the paper running with the rifling angle, would be the weakest and most likely to be cut by the rifling, and fall of in strips, which most people want.
Oh yeah - another point, the longer the fibers and higher the cotton content, the more shrinkage the paper does as it dries, making it tighter to the bullet. This is a good thing.
Yet another point, some make the ends square, other on an angle. Some wrapp the angle with the rifling, others across it.
Best advice is to get "The Paper Jacket" by Paul Mathews. It's a good one.
Lots of experimenting, A?
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 17/07/11 04:10 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Oh yeah - paper thickness - available in many thicknesses - down to about .009"- onion skin (4 layers). Some guys, looking for really thin patches, use Simplicity patterns (clothes making).Some outfits like Buffalo Arms in the States sells patches or patch material. buffaloarms.com, I think. They will also mail Kroil Oil for those who can't get it locally. My 'late' buddy Brad ordered some with some other stuff and Customs let it through into Canada.
| eljefedouble |
| (.300 member) |
| 22/03/12 12:21 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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So who's used Teflon tape regulary? excuse the blasphemy.Just found it amazing that a 21st century item might have a place in 18th century lexicon.
CAp, Took me a long time o sop drooling over the double. Congrats on some very fine taste buds, and Thanks for the paper patch article.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 23/03/12 06:01 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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I'm glad to see people are getting good use out of my article.
I haven't checked in regularly to this forum, so I missed the several posts above. I wasn't "not replying" for any reason other than sloth. Fortunately, Daryl has carried the freight for me with excellent answers.
Teflon? I've heard of people trying it but have never tried it myself. Your technique would be much difference because of how thin it is. I would think you would want your bullet at or close to groove diameter. Just a guess as I've not used it. Somebody try it and give a report.
My greatest heresy is to use the Ranier swaged and copper plated .500 bullets in my .500 BPE. These are 335 grains (just about perfect weight) and .500" diameter (just about perfect diameter). I patch them up to .515" using 20 lb., 25% cotton bond. They shoot perfectly in my two Purdeys.
Curl
| eljefedouble |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/03/12 07:28 PM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Cap, excuse the lack of 'strikes' in some of my words surely senility catching up
I plan to use some cast boolits soon in my 7x57.If they arent gas checked, will try the paper and teflon patching and revert.
cheers
PS- isnt teflon some sort of a precursor to fluorine gas? any one able to clarify? I know we cook in teflon coated vessels, but...
As fr heresy, as Neil says: whatever blows your hair .
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 24/03/12 02:33 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Although I haven't used teflon in any of my guns, I have toyed with wrapping some bullets to see how it goes.
I did notice that the teflon likes to slide around the bullet and is difficult to get to stick well.
One thing that can be done to help this is to roll a file over the sides of the bullet which gives it a nice knurled surface. This helps with paper patches too.
| VonGruff |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/03/12 04:57 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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In the Jan 1983 Guns & Ammo, John Wooters, in his "7mm Cast Bullets" artical wrote about trying Teflon and couldn't get accuracy that was exceptable. He was able to get 3000fps in the 7mm RM but accuracy keft something to be desired as he put it. Was marginally better down at 2500fps but could do better with standard GC.
Von Gruff.
| eljefedouble |
| (.300 member) |
| 24/03/12 10:55 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Me? am all stoked up with a 60* parallellogram, lined paper and a rubber mat. Now for some bullets...;)
The teflon tape? yup, its supposed to be slippery stuff allright.how much obturation wil it offer and is fluorine better tha plain ol CO2? questions, questions...
Read about patching paper with sprite (!) and spit (!!) is corn starch an essential component?
Cheers
| AFRO408 |
| (.333 member) |
| 24/03/12 05:29 PM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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It's called 'Teflon' tape but isn't Teflon, is it???.
Some research has revealed that it is indeed. Teflon is the trade name.
It's PTFE tape, or plumbers tape and is Poly-tetra-fluoro-ethylene, from memory.
I knew a shooter in Brisbane, who said he used to wrap his cast .458 bullets with it and shoot them with full power loads, successfully. I didn't see the results on the targets though, so can't comment on the accuracy. I have tried it in my old .303 and wasn't impressed with the accuracy. I get much better results with Paper Patches.
As for the liquid to wet the patch, I reckon that a little PVA wood glue added to the water would be ok. I just use plain tank water and have no problems with patches slipping.
| VonGruff |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/03/12 08:15 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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The main problem John Wooters had with the Teflon, was getting an even wrap. Cutting lengths was fine but getting the same tension so the ends met was his main difficulty.
Von Gruff.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 07/09/12 11:00 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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So- Curl, I have a couple of questions. I have a 318 dia double, bullets are not easy nor cheap, so thinking of patching these. .308 up to .318 or .320 should be fairly easy, and thinking of jacketed as starters. I read to roll them on a file for adhesion, and have tried this with success. Can I use the powder charges I am using with copper? Is there an issue with the bullet in the unfired chamber of a double, in this caliber, backing out due to having to be so careful with seating- a lack of neck tension?
I understand Ross Seyfried did an article on this very subject a while back, with success, but can't locate either the article or Ross.
Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks, Doug
| 500grains |
| (.416 member) |
| 08/09/12 12:24 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Curl, thanks for that great article on paper patching.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 08/09/12 12:42 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Doug - Ross did indeed do an article or two on patching jacketed bullets to get the correct size for odd sized rifles. His results were shown to be very good.
As with any handloading practise, start low and work as pressure signs indicate.
Note, that .308", .311", .312" and probably .313" bullets are available as well. Adjusting the patch thickness will produce a variety of finished sizes. Running a patched and lubed bullet through a proper sized sizing die, should iron the patch onto the bullet more tightly.
Another possiblity is using a Lee sizing die to reduce .323", 8mm bullets to .320" for your rifle.
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 21/11/12 01:48 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Quote:
So- Curl, I have a couple of questions. I have a 318 dia double, bullets are not easy nor cheap, so thinking of patching these. .308 up to .318 or .320 should be fairly easy, and thinking of jacketed as starters. I read to roll them on a file for adhesion, and have tried this with success. Can I use the powder charges I am using with copper? Is there an issue with the bullet in the unfired chamber of a double, in this caliber, backing out due to having to be so careful with seating- a lack of neck tension?
I understand Ross Seyfried did an article on this very subject a while back, with success, but can't locate either the article or Ross.
Any insight would be appreciated.
Thanks, Doug
Doug,
Sorry, but I have no experience using paper patched bullets in a rifle such as you describe.
I would first want to know the bore diameter so I could choose a bullet very near that size. I would be inclined toward a lead bullet, either swaged or cast, sized to bore diameter and in a weight matching your regulation weight bullet. Then patch to groove diameter using appropriate paper.
Now the experiments start. Will the chosen combination achieve regulation? This is going to be an exercise similar to "normal" double rifle regulation.
Have you chosen the proper paper? I usually start with thin paper and work toward thicker papers until my fired patch fragments show good bore seal without burn.
I doubt you will hit the magic combination on the first try, but I think it can be done.
Are you shooting an 8x57JR? I'm guessing from your stated bullet diameter. I must say in a modern bottle neck cartridge I would be somewhat worried about the end of the bullet protruding into the main body of the case. The paper on that end is going to be exposed to a lot of fire and stresses. I like looooooong neck cartridges for paper!
Sorry for the late reply. I've not opened the Cast Bullets forum recently. I'll do better, I promise!
Curl
| Dphariss |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/02/13 07:05 AM |
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Re: Paper Patched Cast Bullets
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Paper patches that are wet and thus stuck to the bullet to a greater or lesser extent never gave me the accuracy that patches applied dry do.
At least not with BPCRs.
Nor will they produce best accuracy in a BPCR if seated deep in the case. But BP is not smokeless and things that work with grey powder often fail miserably with BP. One of the reasons "modern" handloaders sometimes have trouble with BP.
Bullets seated about 1/16" in the case is borne out by the Sharps Rifle Company's instructions for loading ammo for match rifles in the 1870s. But all the Sharps PP bullets were tapered and often the bores were significantly larger than the bullets. .451" bullet vs .460-.464 groove in the barrel.
The only advantage PP has is in elimination of leading. In reality they are less accurate than "naked" cast bullets.
They will shoot very well, but they do produce the occasional flier that is not likely in "naked" bullets. They are also very labor intensive if loading 300+ rounds for a match. It adds a day or more to the ammo preparation time.
I still like PP for some uses and use them in my 45-100 when I shoot it. But patching tapered bullets is not the same as patching bullets with parallel sides. So the patch has to be angled differently on one end than the other.
Dan