lancaster
(.450 member)
09/12/18 06:27 AM
the french colonial case

anyone had seens such a french reloadable shotgun case made of duraluminium before?
it was available before and after WW 2 under the name "colonial case" in 24, 20, 16 and 12 ga.

the very special thing was you could prime the case with the small size muzzle loader primer probably also available deep in the jungle of nowhere or behind the last corner of the sahara.
imho, it was the only case ever made for this muzzle loader primer. maybe not 100% gastight but better than no ammo at all.


1930s




1958 manufrance catalog



tinker
(.416 member)
09/12/18 08:02 AM
Re: the french colonial case

Interesting

The case with the crossed sticks for holding the over shot card - that feature is employed by the Belgian fellow who produces the reloadable brass pinfire shotshells.


Daryl_S
(.577 member)
09/12/18 08:35 AM
Re: the french colonial case

Quite possibly, due to the size of a shotgun firing pin and the small hole for the percussion cap, there would be very little, if any gas escape.
Excellent idea and not difficult for someone with a lathe to make up these cases for normal primers.

Turning a case with the central pin for firing a percussion cap would be much more difficult.

I read an article years ago, might have been Gun Digest, or Guns and Ammo Annual, wherein a fellow was turning cases for his .577/450 out of brass and having a narrow, .45/70 sized internal powder chamber, so he used standard .45/70 data. No sizing and ever-lasting cases.


lancaster
(.450 member)
09/12/18 02:54 PM
Re: the french colonial case

I see two problems with this idea
first, the small size cap have no plain side but is ribbed so there is allways a source for gas escape



second, the thin copper cap on a muzzle loader will rupture when firing
ok, the cap having no protection on the nipple of the muzzle loader but the chance is imho, very high the primer will blowing out gas

with black powder load and a hammer gun pressure will be never high and the gas will not reach the locks but it seems you get pierced primers all the time.

maybe trying this idea to see how it works in practise


Huvius
(.416 member)
10/12/18 01:57 AM
Re: the french colonial case

The little cross pins (from what my limited understanding of French offers) are aluminum wires more or less which fit into internal indentations in the case.
I have seen brass cases with holes which one can insert a couple of toothpicks to hold an over shot card which acts similarly.

As for the percussion cap, I initially thought the same thing as Lancaster.
But, I wonder, is the anvil of the case integral with the tube and the varying rims simply hold the primer and the ignition accomplished through smaller holes as in the Berdan system?
If so, maybe the pressure is great enough to seal the percussion cap reducing or eliminating blow-by.
Very interesting concept though.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
10/12/18 04:13 PM
Re: the french colonial case

picture indicates the anvil is part of the case. i don't see how any more gas would escape from this setup than would escape from the nipple of a frontloader. actually looks like a neat setup for backup under the circumstances.

we tend to think of the stuff paying sportsman and professionals use but back in the day there were a lot more locals shooting birds and buck for the pot than we might think. and they weren't using best grade english guns to get it done. back in '81 i spent a summer in zaire/congo with missionaries. one thing very easily found was black powder and muzzleloading stuff. brass cased rifle ammo not so much. shotgun shells could be had. i don't know the details and such, but i can only imagine a guy would benefit from any and every trick gizmo he could assemble in some of those areas where ammo is scarce. so having a box or so of those french shells would come in handy.


9.3x57
(.450 member)
10/12/18 04:25 PM
Re: the french colonial case

Here's the Short Lane Black Powder Shell.

Goes the opposite way...

Using a 209 shotgun primer in a .50 caliber "case" that fits a 12 bore gun. For light payloads only.

A friend gave me a few of these years ago.









lancaster
(.450 member)
10/12/18 07:31 PM
Re: the french colonial case

its a nice little thing but probably only for very small game because of the ligth load. in the wilderness it would be much better to have the adapter for using the 12 ga gun as a muzzle loader like this one here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQN7XX6u2_Y

the 209 shotgun primer may be hard to get but black powder and caps were probably two things available also in the smallest store in africa anytime. I would prefer a muzzle loader adapter for the little cap if it works. Beause I only know the traditional muzzle loader there is one question: if you load such an in-line muzzle loader der powder can maybe trickle down the primer hole into the action when you load it or do this not happen?


still in use in east india
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoSpGNVU49I

Poachers prepare a 'bharwa' or muzzle loader gun, prior to heading out for a hunt in Nagaland, India. They first fill in the gun powder or 'baarood' into the front of the rifle, then a wad of cotton wool followed by chharras or round bullets (sort of like ball bearings) which get fired from the gun. The poacher shows us how the gun shoots, and it gives quite a kick-back or recoil! This footage is part of the professionally-shot broadcast stock footage archive of Wilderness Films India Ltd., the largest collection of imagery from South Asia. The Wilderness Films India collection comprises of thousands of hours of high quality broadcast imagery, mostly shot on HDCAM 1080i High Definition, HDV and XDCAM. Write to us for licensing this footage on a broadcast format, for use in your production! We are happy to be commissioned to film for you or else provide you with broadcast crewing and production solutions across South Asia. We pride ourselves in bringing the best of India and South Asia to the world... Reach us at wfi @ vsnl.com and [Email]admin@wildfilmsindia.com.[/Email]


9.3x57
(.450 member)
11/12/18 01:52 AM
Re: the french colonial case

Neat stuff.

Anyone with a modern shotgun and some 209 primers and some fired shotshells, a dowel or metal rod the fits in the bore and is long enough to reach the breech, black powder and any number of small bits like air rifle shot or even small brass nuts or in a pinch even steel nuts or screws and some side cutters has the makings of a muzzle loader. Other options for shot are heavy copper ground wire or solder wire or similar stuff attacked with the side cutters. Not to mention legitimate sources like shot molds and such. In a chokeless gun, a heavily patched steel ball bearing will do for a single ball. And of course any scrap paper can be used for wadding. One just primes the hull, seats it, then loads the rest of the stuff from the front. Of course, one can just load the stuff into the shell and glue a top wad in as well, or any other form of combination thereof.

When I was in Zaire in '80, I hunted monkeys with an African fellow who had a home-made BOLT ACTION muzzle loader. It worked on more or less the exact same principle found in the later "cutting edge" Knight Modern Muzzle Loader. He used two 45 caliber balls another guy cast for his Ruger Old Army revolver. It worked. Really, the options for making something go "BANG" are pretty endless!

PS: Check out Laotian Hunting videos on youtube. Some very interesting traditional guns there with a strange operating mechanism.

In Frederick Spencer Chapman's famous book "THE JUNGLE IS NEUTRAL" he describes an incident while fleeing pro-Japanese police in Malaya where he is shot in the ankle while on his bicycle. It turns out to be a handloaded nut fired from the cop's shotgun. That wound caused him a lot of problem from then on.


lancaster
(.450 member)
11/12/18 02:28 AM
Re: the french colonial case

common in europe for making cheap shot by poachers was to chop lead with an axe to the size you need. we have endless reports up to WW 1 when poacher kill forester with such choped lead, after the war they had military rifles.
because the axe is a basic tool it seems me the best way to make shot at home. Remember to try this in my younger years and load some 12 ga with blackpowder and this stuff. use it on clay pigeon and got some.
well I was told by bystander make some hits but never see it because of the smoke.

in the end to chop lead with the axe is a lot of work and I will let it for the case of need


9.3x57
(.450 member)
11/12/18 03:09 AM
Re: the french colonial case

Quote:

in the end to chop lead with the axe is a lot of work and I will let it for the case of need




Necessity is, after all, the Mother of Invention!


kuduae
(.400 member)
12/12/18 12:02 AM
Re: the french colonial case

In fact a very old idea even before WW1! In 1829 French Clement Pottet patented a cartridge case with a central nipple to take standard percussion caps. In the 1860s to 70s some British gunmakers like Reilly sold reloadable steel cases , taking percussion caps, to customers bound for far away places of the British empire.


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