| m4220 |
| (.300 member) |
| 06/02/15 03:16 PM |
11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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I have passed a few boxes of 11.15x60R thru my hands over the years with most being in the Blue fabric boxes & also lots in the Buff colored boxes, today I aqquired some in Smooth Royal Blue boxes (almost Black) & the boxes appear to be wax coated & sealed!! I have never seen any of these before can anybody enlighten me with some history?
m4220
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 07/02/15 09:04 PM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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I can't remember have seeing the royal blue waterproof box before.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/02/15 12:51 AM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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Maybe packed this way for use by German colonial troops? The Askaris of the German East African Schutztruppe under v.Lettow-Vorbeck were still equipped with Jägerbüchsen M71 when WW1 started.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 08/02/15 06:34 AM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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Is there any indication on the boxes, for which years of M71's they were designed.
The reason I ask, is that the early ones, like my model 71 - 1876 version has a .457" groove to groove measurement with a .437" bore. Yes - .010" deep rifling. The chamber will only accept a .446" bullet, the standard in both paper patched and grooved lubricated bullets. The models of 1884, however, had a .446" groove diameter which shot just fine with the .446" bullets OR the paper patched bullets of pure lead and the same size.
I have read the oversized groove diameters shot OK with paper patched bullets and the 77gr. black powder load due to obturation of the soft bullet. The harder grooved lubricated bullets of later years, however did not shoot well in the deeper grooved earlier rifles.
Yes - the forend had been shortened, probably as it should have been longer, I think and with a metal band/sight at the muzzle end.
As I could not obtain .43 Mauser brass at the time I came across this carbine, I re-chambered it for the .450 Alaskan. I used reasonably equivalent loads in it. Due to the 20" bl. with a 20" twist, it shoots fairly well with all normal bullet weights, including 525gr.FN's. I fired 40 fire lapping loads which enlarged the groove diameter .001" and the bore by the same amount.
| Sarg |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/02/15 07:27 AM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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Cool Old rifle & cartridges both.. Ash will want one LoL !
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 09/02/15 04:58 AM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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The front sight on my carbine is not original - I soldered an old reclaimed ramp on the muzzle as it's original sight was missing - think it went with the original band?
I think this was the first action, that if the bolt was open and one pointed the muzzle down, pulling the trigger would not only close, but cam the bolt down as well - aka the very much later M.S. rifle actions.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 09/02/15 05:37 AM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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Quote:
I think this was the first action, that if the bolt was open and one pointed the muzzle down, pulling the trigger would not only close, but cam the bolt down as well - aka the very much later M.S. rifle actions.
Yes, you are right. When the German Gewehrprüfungscommission = rifle testing commission designed a successor to the M71 and M71/84 actions,the head gunsmith of Spandau Arsenal, Louis Schlegelmilch, redesigned the proven M71 bolt by adding two forward locking lugs, locking into the receiver ring, a new bolthead with different extractor and ejector, but retained the proven cocking/safety arrangement. The testing commission favoured the Mannlicher cliploading Magazine, but Mannlicher then concentrated on straight pull Actions. But the Germans wanted Louis Schlegelmilch's turning bolt combined with the Mannlicher Magazine in the design of the M88 Commission rifle. So they made an agreement with the OEWG Steyr, owners of the Mannlicher patents: Steyr got an order for making 300000 M88 rifles for the German army. Further, Steyr was allowed to make M88 actioned rifles for export to other nations. So they did, exporting lots of such rifles to China and even making their own Exportmodell 1904 on the same action. Steyr was free to use the basic Schlegelmilch turning bolt on their own rifles. All turn bolt "Mannlichers" use this bolt design, the Romanian M92, 93, the Dutch 95 and all the Mannlicher-Schoenauers. I have seen the working rifle of a local hunter once: A Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1908, rust pitted, restocked and rechambered to 8x57IS post WW2. It functioned perfectly since the early 1950s with a M88 bolt assembly and some minor modifications.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 09/02/15 10:18 AM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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tks for the history lesson, kuduae.
My late buddy's collection contains a 9.5x47 or 50mm??? necked ctg. SS bolt action rifle. It is quite elaborate as to engraving & gold inlays, the action slightly shorter & reduced in diameter than my M71, but otherwise identical.
It has no markings. We took a chamber cast- I might even still have that - back in the early 80's and I made him up a number of cases - thinking I used either .45/70 or .348 Winchester cases - I think, iirc, the .45/70 cases. It was around 1.8" to 1.9" in length, looking much like a .38/56 ctg., but slightly shorter, like a .45/60 Winchester necked for a .375 bullet. The groove diameter was .375".
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 10/02/15 06:07 AM |
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Re: 11.15x60R aka 43 Mauser
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Quote:
My late buddy's collection contains a 9.5x47 or 50mm??? necked ctg. SS bolt action rifle. It is quite elaborate as to engraving & gold inlays, the action slightly shorter & reduced in diameter than my M71, but otherwise identical.
It has no markings. We took a chamber cast- I might even still have that - back in the early 80's and I made him up a number of cases - thinking I used either .45/70 or .348 Winchester cases - I think, iirc, the .45/70 cases. It was around 1.8" to 1.9" in length, looking much like a .38/56 ctg., but slightly shorter, like a .45/60 Winchester necked for a .375 bullet. The groove diameter was .375".
These "simplified M71 actions" were a staple of the Zella-Mehlis guntrade from the 1880s up to the 1920s. They came in many different sizes from tiny ones for rimfire cartridges to giant ones for 12 bore "Vogelbüchsen", specialised target rifles for smashing wooden eagle figures on Schützenfests. They were simplified as the bolt stop reinforce on receiver bridge, bolt stop screw and washer of the military action were omitted, the sear serving as the bolt stop. Some retained the Mauser flag safety, others are found with other safety devices or none at all. They were quite popular as Schützen target rifles, as they were cheaper than the many falling block actions.
Up to about 1900 the 9.5x47R, a shortened and necked down 11.15x60R case, was a popular target cartridge, replaced by the 8.15x46R in popularity. Quite often usable 9.5x47R cases are made now from .45-70 brass.