| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 18/05/19 01:12 AM |
Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
I have an 8 gauge SxS buy W. Parkhurst. The barrels are laminated (Damascus). That aside, I plan to shoot it a little with modest black powder loads. After 24 hours of google searches, I dont find much for components.
I do see some industrial cases maybe available someplace. where? I cannot find new industrial 8 ga cases. If I could get a box, then I need to try and size off the belt. Anyone done that? The ideal would be brass, priced along the lines of what I can easily find in 10 Ga. Maybe 2x would be reasonable, not 10x custom machine shop brass. Although, if I had a drawing, I might try and DIY some cases.
I located wads at track of the wolf for a muzzle loading 8bore. Are these the right size for loading in shells or do I need to go a little larger?
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=8%20gauge
Any suggestions on what might constitute a modest proof test as a percentage of the working load? I did not research loads yet. I was planning on 2 7/8 10 ga black powder load. That would be a max for me. Easy on me and the gun. And proof with a full (or normal) 8ga load. Comments?
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 18/05/19 02:11 AM |
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Need to do a measurement of the chamber as well as the bore size to know the size needed for 'shells' and wads.
For me, that would be a first step if I decided the gun was suitable for shooting.
The pressures generated for a BP 8-bore load will be quite low.
Brass cases can be turned, however, perhaps the chamber is meant for much thicker paper cases.
Loads are likely printed in Grener's "The Gun and it's Development" 9th edition.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 18/05/19 05:12 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
what daryl says, chamber cast + slug the barrel
RMC https://www.rockymountaincartridge.com/i...ts%20Prices.pdf
will make you brass
and cycle fly mad wads
https://circlefly.com/products
the old eley catalogs giving a 8 ga load of 164 grains black powder and 982,52 grains shot but this depends on your shell.
reloading shotgun ammo with black powder is easy as possible. your shell or metall case having an internal space. withdraw the space for your wads and filled in equal shares with black powder and shot. thats all!
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/05/19 05:55 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
I have two 8gas and I buy everything I need from precision reloading. You would be better off to stick with the winchester 8ga industrial hulls. I made my swedging die.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 18/05/19 07:23 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
OK, this is great information. I have book marked RMC and Precision. I am taking notes and figuring things out. Precision has the industrial cases. That is the main hurdle. And RMC makes brass and that remains an option. I am leaning toward 100 plastic hulls over 10 brass.
My chambers are 3 3/4! I can use 3 1/4 or 3 1/2 no problem.
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/05/19 08:44 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
You can use rem 8ga wads and an over shot card. Glue the overshot card in with a hot glue gun or roll crimp with one of there roll crimp tools. Cases last longer if you glue in the over shot wad. I use blue Dot powder. Bp in plastic cases in the doses an 8ga would use will burn right through the case in one loading. Make sure your gun is solid before shooting.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 18/05/19 01:22 PM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Quote:
Bp in plastic cases in the doses an 8ga would use will burn right through the case in one loading.
TKS for that note, Wayne, I did not suspect that, however a 7 dram load in a 12 bore hull really 'cooks' them on the inside.
I just used to throw the 12 bore hulls away, but with 8 or 10 bore hulls, that would be expensive.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 18/05/19 01:58 PM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
thats the problem with plastic, brass is expensive in the start but will stay very long.
especially if you have brass cases with the thick wall like a paper shell.if you buy 30 brass cases that will be enough, imho.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/05/19 12:29 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
That plastic hull tip saved me a lot of time and money. I will assume this warning also applies to having a plastic shot cup in direct contact with the fire. Too modify a phrase from a movies "I love the smell of black powder in the morning".
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 20/05/19 01:14 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
If brass is too thin for a chamber that is possibly meant for paper, card tubes can be placed inside the brass case to take up extra space.
If you could get on a lathe and turn some out, boring brass to make the thick wall would also work, if you are into such "work".
Burning plastic (when right against the powder) and coating the bore with it is not good.
| Sarg |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/05/19 05:31 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Bigboar check your PM messages, Kiln Gun cases are the way to go, don't use the Gulandi or any plastic wads with BP, Fiber,Felt & I think Cork for that job, but lots of good tested Nitro loads out there, Blue Dot mainly, I have two 8 bore's only shoot a Tolley right now .
Winchester Industrial cases 6 drams FF=164gr BP, 2 1/2oz No3 lead shot, lighter load came with the gun but again lots of good nitro load info around & tested .
Remington cases are meant to be stronger/better but Winchester have been easier to obtain for free/cheap.
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/05/19 07:06 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
You don't use the plastic wad with Bp. You use fiber wads with Bp. Plastic wads are used with nitro loads.
NitroX
|
| (.700 member) |
| 20/05/19 01:20 PM |
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Sarge, Good to see you back mate.
Sorry about the small diversion to the opening thread. Back to 8 bores.
| cadet |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/05/19 08:40 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Precision reloading for cases, unless you have a contact in a cement works; Remington cases can have the second layer "peeled" off the head using a chisel, mallet and pliers to fit a sporting chamber, although resizing can be done, and looks neater; the winchesters I've seen have the step for the industrial cases formed all in one, rather than as a second layer, and the rim was a bit too big to fit the sizing dies I had access too (wish I could solve that problem... have about 500 cheap Winnie cases I can't yet use). 21mm wad punch (or 22mm; my bore is actually 9/1, so 21mm works), card and cork floor tiles supplies all the wadding you'll ever need. I managed to get a roll crimper from France on ebay for a pretty penny, but you could glue overshot cards. Tom Armbrust wrote a book (available electronically) with some useful - and pressure tested - load data; even handier in Australia once you figure out that most Hodgdon powders are actually ADI. All other quirks re BP and plastic are as per above; I tend to use some lower pressure smokeless loads to preserve precious cases - but I don't see the point of having an 8 bore if I'm not belching 2oz or more of lead every time I press the trigger.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 21/05/19 09:50 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
2oz should be an almost "square" load - isn't it?
That sounds about perfect to me.
I had a friend, now gone, who used a 6 bore SxS percussion ball and shot gun for the trap portion of the turkey shoots he attended. This SxS had 36" tubes and weighed about 12 to 13 pounds. Once started, you couldn't stop your swing if you wanted to.
He'd sent the gun to H&H, for "re-furbishing" and they returned it, in lovely shape, as a 5 bore - the bores gleamed brand new.
Wil punched out his own wads - donna-conna and cork & heavy card stock.
He used only 2 to 2 1/2oz of 8's and just pulverized the birds. I think, maybe 5 drams 1F.
I found this on 8 bore loading.
"The Dixie Gunworks catalog has a lot of data on the old guns in the back. 270 grains (9 7/8 drams) is the Defintive PROOF load. The Provisional Proof is 394 grains (17 1/2 drams). No wonder they fired them by remote control in an amoured room.
The Service load is 135 grains (4 15/16 drams) and a 763 grain ball or 1 13/16 ounces of shot. Wonder why they cut it to the 16th ounce on the bigger gauges when they didn't on the smaller ones?"
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/05/19 10:38 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Sarg, I got your messages. Thank you. I will look for the book. Tom Armbush also posted by Cadet.
I am pretty determined to use black powder. Buying brass hulls is more difficult than I expected. GAD was supposed to offer those. I called they said No. RMC website says the business is for sale and delivery may run many months out. I sent an email. I could use the lowest cost industrial plastic and shoot those one time. That may get me back to Precision, one stop shopping.
| cadet |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/05/19 11:12 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
8 bore is 8 lead balls to the lb, so a 2 oz (ie 2oz x 8 balls = 16oz = 1lb) load should be spot on, even a tad light as a service load, given other gauges often enough have shot weights a little beyond their round ball capacity.
Armbrust's loads tend to be in the 1 1/2 oz - 2 1/2 oz range, both BP and nitro.
Somewhere in Greener is suggested a service load of 2 1/4oz / 6 drams.
The guns were made for it, and I just see no point in putting a tiny load through a big gun.
| 3DogMike |
| (.400 member) |
| 21/05/19 11:20 AM |
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Quote:
,.....
....RMC website says the business is for sale and delivery may run many months out. I sent an email. I could use the lowest cost industrial plastic and shoot those one time.......
Forget email, give RMC a phone call, they do answer the phone, and are still busy making brass.
" many months out???" I just did an order for custom dimension 12 bore brass for my Lyon & Lyon double rifle......less than 8 weeks from initial contact to delivery at my door, and no extra setup charge.
Of course your milage may vary.
- Mike
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/05/19 01:14 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
I got a very good reply back from RMC. I mean informative. The 8ga shells are $124 per 10 for the 3 1/2 length and delivery is estimated at 3 month out. The brass stock is different for the 8ga than 12. They are currently out of that brass. Before I commit to a 3 month wait, I want to do a bit more homework. I do take the recommendations given here very seriously.
I did find a source for old winchester 8ga brass. Used brass. That cost is about the same as new, lathe turned brass. Could anyone comment on the risks vs benefits of using old brass. I know it might split. Heck I have 20 year old pistol ammo that is splitting when I shoot it. What are the odds? On the other hand I have read some negative opinions on lathe turned brass vs drawn or whatever is the normal production method.
There is also mention of thick wall vs thin wall brass. I dont if I have any choice and if I did, I dont know which is better. Or the trade off. Or available components for one vs the other.
I am trying to work within my limited retirement budget. You might say champagne taste on a Budweiser budget. Actually I can afford one bottle, but; making 8 bore mistakes will really hurt the wallet.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 22/05/19 02:15 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Cerosafe casting the chamber to see what the chamber is meant for - brass or paper would be my first step.
trackofthewolf and most likely Brownell's have cerosafe.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 22/05/19 03:56 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
there is no problem if you anneal the old 8 bore brass. did it with 100 years old military brass for the 8x58RD. without its hopeless and split the first time.
after annealing the brass its close to be new.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/05/19 05:10 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
lancaster good tip. Thanks.
daryl,
Not clear to me what that information will do to limit my options? Brass can be turned to any OD. So; eventually I may need that. Plastic will expand to fill any chamber size. I dont have a spec for old Winchester brass or paper.
My best measurement is the chamber has no taper and measures somewhere around 0.935 to 0.938
I found CIP spec for modern plastic 8ga (not the industrial USA loads). Nothing on any brass old or new.
CIP modern ammo has a chamber that starts with a diameter forward of the rim of 0.931 min to 0.935 max and it tapers down from that.
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/05/19 05:17 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Keep in mind that used brass has already been fired. Do you have a resizing die. Will the brass drop into your chamber un-sized. The new brass will be thicker than the old brass and will require different size wads. Check track of the wolf for wad size before making a decision.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 22/05/19 10:16 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Wayne brings up the reason for knowing that the chamber is: ie: wad diameter.
A thin brass case needs larger wads due to the thinner brass.
Turned brass cases will likely be thicker, however, if the chamber & bore is cut for thin factory brass, your wads will need to be larger in diameter.
Paper cases used smaller diameter wads due to the thickness of the paper case.
If you use thick case walls in a chamber that is meant for thin brass, the wads will likely be undersized for the 'larger' bore.
It is a good thing, to know, rather than guess at what you have for a gun.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/05/19 10:35 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
I get it. I measured the chamber. Call it 936. With all due respect, what does this tell me? I mean specific to my chamber, 936. Does that say anything about using old Winchester brass or new industrial plastic with the belt sized down?
When you say paper, do you mean plastic? Because I dont see any paper cases in 8 anywhere.
It seems I have no choice but to buy the brass (or plastic) and measure the hull ID. Then buy the wads or punches. It has little to do with my gun. That is unless I split all the cases due to 936. Can someone tell me will factory old Winchester brass fit 936?
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/05/19 11:25 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Formed brass and turned brass require different size wads. The chambers on these old guns can vary in size. Mostly in the rim area. If you would like some help let me know and I will give you my number. I will tell you the easyest way to get started without spending a fortune.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/05/19 06:28 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Wayne,
Thank you for the generous offer. I sent a PM. If it dont show up, let me know.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 23/05/19 09:43 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Paper means paper. There was a guy at our gun show 2 weeks ago, who was selling paper 8 bore once fired hulls as well as paper factory loaded with that 2oz, chunk of lead for breaking scale.
paper means paper - I thought they were still available.
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/05/19 12:08 PM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Daryl if you can I would appreciate any info you could find on where he is getting his paper hulls. 10ga would also be nice.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 23/05/19 01:36 PM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
OK Wayne. I'm busy all day tomorrow, then heading back East to bury my last aunt, so home on Monday. I can get contact info for the guy after we, my brother and I and I get home from Ontario.
He's there now and will not have that contact information with him.
Skip me a note next week, Wayne.
| Wayne59 |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/05/19 10:03 PM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Thanks Daryl. Sorry to hear about your Aunt.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/05/19 01:51 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Tks Wayne. She was the Matriarch (non blood side for me) of the family for just over 3 years after my Mom passed in late 2015.
Another hour 1/2 and my trailer goes in for bearings and brakes - I expect to be at the RV shop most of the day.
The 19,200km trip of last summer's post-trip wrenching is not over.
| Sarg |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/05/19 03:36 PM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Most likely older Kiln Gun rounds Daryl, they were paper, with I think a heavy Zinc slug NEVER shoot these in a rifle or gun it WILL blow you & it to bits, these are made to fit & be fired in a small cannon !!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 25/05/19 12:33 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Yes-, Sarg - that's exactly what they were.
The projectiles I saw were 2oz totally flat on the front end, & hard lead.
I will contact Wayne when I get back home. Being picked up in 30 minutes by the airport shuttle.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 29/05/19 08:36 PM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
I placed a large order with Precision. They had a memorial day sale and I made the $300 level for $30 discount. I ordered plastic hulls and wads for both 8 GA and 10GA. Both plastic shot wads and felt and over shot and over powder wads. A pound of blue dot. I may have to see for my self how bad the black powder melts the plastic hulls. I will start with smokeless. The 8 GA barrel has just enough minor pitting that might make cleaning more of a chore. I may revisit the brass cases later.
As initially posted, Precision looks like a good way to start with smokeless and one stop shopping. I had a long conversation with Wayne on the phone. Very helpful. He pointed out an error I made in measuring the 10ga chamber. That was a major error on my part. We also ID the chamber types, one paper, other brass. I never posted on the 10 because I assumed it was a simple gun to load. And it is. But a little knowledge goes a long way.
Thank you to everyone who posted. Now, if I could find a 4 gauge.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/05/19 12:43 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Thanks for the update, bigboar.
Now, about the barrels, any marks indicating they are "not for ball".
A round ball load that shoots close, and a wild bore hunt, might be exciting.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 30/05/19 08:02 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
I do not see any mention of ball, one way or another. I measured about 5/1000 constriction for choke. I guess that would be considered slightly improved. Almost nothing. A soft round ball should work. Those would be 2 ounce balls. I dont see myself carrying a 13.5 pound gun with 35" barrels. What it lacks in practical, it will make up for in fun!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 31/05/19 02:52 AM |
|
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
5 to 8 thou. is about IMP Cyl., IIRC. I would not use a ball larger than the choke, however. Yes, I know paradox& rifled choke guns are even tighter, but the barrels are also much heavier than a 'pelter'. (pelletshooter)
| rigbymauser |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/05/19 05:19 AM |
|
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Recommended reading..
| Sarg |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/05/19 06:33 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Well done Rigbymauser, those are the ones that I was trying to remember, I have the Pink one, great info in that, but mine is with the chap who WAS going to put rifle barrels on my C&H action !
| theprof1 |
| (.224 member) |
| 07/07/19 04:37 PM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Hi there, Be slightly careful with chamber length as 3 1/4 was generally the longest chamber in US made guns, though some may have been longer.. British chamberings went up to 4 1/4 from memory I used Winchester 3 1/4 magnum paper hulls from a cement works. I had to make up a swage to tap the hulls into to reduce the second brass thickness back to parallel so they would chamber. It soon worked out that a light rub inside and out the cartridge mouth with melted paraffin wax extended case life significantly on the paper cases. The load I used was the standard ICI - Eley-Kynoch recommended load for 3 1/4 cases of 158 gn FFG and 2 ozs shot as the gun - an American Davenport, has no proof marks, I didnt push it to 2 1/2 ozs shot. Being a single barrel I didnt need to wory too much about crimping so just used hot wax on the over shot card but this will not work in your double so your on your own there I am afraid.
| bigboar |
| (.224 member) |
| 10/07/19 08:52 AM |
|
Re: Help loading an 8 bore shotgun
|
Quote:
Hi there, Be slightly careful with chamber length as 3 1/4 was generally the longest chamber in US made guns, though some may have been longer.. British chamberings went up to 4 1/4
For full disclosure, my 8ga is not 3 3/4 inch. I ended up making a chamber adaptor 8 to 12ga. Quite a home machinist project for me. I have not used that adaptor. It is another angle to try out, maybe BP cowboy loads? That is beside the point. I ended up with 3 3/8 long adapter and just barely fit at that with a slightly beveled end. Given the level of fitment, I guess now, that the gun is really 3 1/4 with a little extra and a very gentle taper. I decided to post because, I dont want to mislead anyone with wrong information. I will go back and add a foot note to my inaccurate post.
As for the loading, I was able to swage down the industrial brass. I load up 20 rounds with black powder. we will see how the plastic holds up for one shot with a light load. I have been distracted and not been able to fire the gun. And, waiting to get together with my buddy and his skeet machine and the pattern board at the club. Then, I will see where I am at. I used double felt wads to fill the case. If I do order brass, I will get 3" and have less unused space to deal with.