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finally its in the house the only gun I ever packed in two bags looks like a simple old hammer gun over the weekend I was in denmark where it begun to grab the thing here it is with a Manton muzzle loader and a Schultz&Larsen M. 38 SN 380, 6,5x58RD, came from the estate of an old danish hunter who shoot his roe deer all the decades with this little carbine (50 cm barrel). its a very nice rifle and was clearly inspired by the short MS 1903 stutzen. anyway, back to the shotgun, you probably notice its bigger than normal SN is 5299 a anchor +crown mark I am not seeing before, anyone knows? made by "A.Francotte Brevete A Liege" Auguste Francotte patent from Liege one of the better known firms making best guns up to the great war http://littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20francotte/a%20francotte%20gb.htm never had a Francotte catalog in my hands but they exist https://www.ebay.com/itm/Auguste-Francotte-dArmes-c1912-Catalog-/290893130400 https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=287 you see it before its a Lefaucheux or pinfire gun the barrel is hold by a wedge in the action, broken on one side once I think the damascus barrel was brown once MG 1874 , maybe made in 1874 AF under crown on the barrel belgian proof marks and YES, its a 4 ga. here with the steel cases to be prepared I bought a 4 ga, 4" long Gevelot made cartridge with the help of louis in france. the gun itself cost me the price of 20 cartridges so you can decide what is the better deal. here with a brass case 14,5x114 dummy round you see without necking up the steel case( I dont recommend this)you got 88 mm maximum out of this. dont worry about it, thinking by myself to shoot a shorter cartridge or lengthen the case with a paper liner. BUT, I never see it before this gun having only a 3,5" long chamber and my steel case cut to 87,5 mm fit perfect in length. turn the steel case down on the base from 26,8 mm to 26,3 mm what I measure on the gevelot pinfire cartridge. http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=324441&an=0&page=0#Post324441 the chamber is actually very large, conical and it seems over 27 mm at the end. notice the pin dont comes out vertically a 9 mm Parabellum case in the muzzle barrel seems to be around 23 mm diameter so inch pincher will deny its a 4 ga. the secret of the screw, it hold a small rifle primer the pin can by glued in anytime you want or just stick into the hole before you fire the gun together with another belgian single shot gun, a 9 mm Flobert rimfire gun will get a careful restoration - will see action on geese in autumn. hold the gun over the head into the sky its surprisingly good to handle and you can follow flying targets without problems. recoil? we will see. gun comes from sweden to denmark in 2006, Jørgen told me he never find a hint that shotguns bigger than 10 ga were used for geese hunting in denmark. I see this in the hand of a swedish hunter on the coast were you dont have much cover so geese will see you and flying very high. |
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Good work, Lancaster - soon as I saw it I thought - "HA!-those steel pin fire cases he's been building. I wasn't sure how you were going to insert the primers or use percussion caps - good idea, Well done! Yes- quite likely it was browned - a light 'wash of brown'. |
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Bloody amazing! Never guessed the pinfire connection Lancaster - yes you cases will certain last a very long time! Great to see this old bird back on its feet again, you did wonders doing so, & yes there was no other way of doing so without losing it's originality. Maybe it might be a further lesson for us not so talented to be shown just what you go thru to do a restoration on something like this! As to how Lois found a pinfire cartridge in such good order....he's a magician! I'd be careful mate, everyone will be begging you to find something that they've always been after! |
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Very cool. Always fun to have a new toy to play with. |
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Bigga'BOOM! |
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allways wanted a 4 ga. pinfire because center fire is boring! the 3,5 " chamber was the biggest surprise because 4 " is common. only see 4 ga pinfire with Eley and and SFM = Gevelot Gaupilat headstamp. I suspect the owner of this gun cut down 4" shells with a knife. in the 1900 SFM catalog you find 4 ga. shells , 1000 for 200 franc ,this was 164 Mark - 38 dollar - 8 pound sterling wads an interesting explosive bullet, also in 4 ga. , for dangerous game elephant, lion, tiger maybe a native french speaker (louis) can made a good translation the 4 ga pinfire shell is not in the 1921 post war SFM catalog anymore, only the center fire version SFM shotshell dimensions for pinfire - Doilles a Broche: the 4 gauge pinfire is 16,50 mm on the base and 26,2 mm on the papertube, rim is 28 mm the 3,2mm thick pin protude 17,75 mm shell inside measure 23,4 mm what fits to my barrel |
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That explosive bullet certainly would have killed both ends! I'd have to be in the right frame of mind before firing that beast..... |
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of course, I have an interest to date the gun working back now step by step, my own SN is 5299 here is SN 20576 "Based on its serial number, 20576 had been made around 1892, when Belgium’s colonial empire and the Liège gun trade were near their peak and Auguste Francotte was one of Liège’s most important makers of sporting guns. Von Lengerke & Detmold, a Manhattan-based establishment that catered to New York’s wealthy sporting set, imported the gun roundabout then. At the time VL&D sold a wide variety of guns, American and English, and especially Continental brands such as J.P. Sauer, Mauser, Greifelt, Mannlicher-Schoenauer and, most successfully, boxlock shotguns made by Francotte in a range of models." https://shootingsportsman.com/pleissners-francotte/ 15000 guns later in 1892, wonder if the small 1874 stamp is showing the year it was made |
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SN 12697 "your shotgun was manufactured in the period 1880 when Francotte became active in manufacturing trade name guns and 1892 (evidenced by what is not on the barrel flats; i.e. barrel weight, choke designation, chamber length)." https://www.gunvaluesboard.com/old-belgian-made-shotgun-for-id-28430018.html |
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case are ready now - 29 at all will not shoot more cartridges in one day so hope its enough to make it easy the pins were made from nails but hardened in the end to prevent bending because the primer screw only fit the original case I numbered all was thinking before 3 3/4" long cases are unusual because you only see the 4" long pinfire shells listed in old catalogs but a collector friend resolve me that 3 3/4" was the common length in the 19. century in europe found an old loading data from a 1898 printed german book: 15,9 gramm BP and 85 gramm shot eley catalog 1904 gives 15,9 gramm BP and 92 gramm shot for the 4" long shell. my 3 3/4" steel case will not hold such a load. |
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Good! |
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"barrel seems to be around 23 mm diameter so inch pincher will deny its a 4 ga." Having a 4 bore chamber makes cases easier. A 6 bore barrel, 23mm being .019" under 6 bore of .919". Not knocking you saying it is a 4bore, lancaster, as that is the case it is chambered for. If shooting balls (deer, bear, hogs, trucks), something around .905 would be about perfect and weigh around 1,000gr., maybe a bit more or less, depending on alloy. What a nice gun to have and play with. |
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Big Bertha was in the hands of my gunmaker because there were some screws I could not move to disassemble it. the master is with right very proud for moving every screw but this time the two screws holding the lock only make it with losses one screw got a new head by tig welding, the other one was a total loss and get a new replacement try 3 cases for priming and it work 100% if you look on the primer you see he never had a chance by the big hammer and the pin the pins are fixed by common glue what held it in place but crack trusty when the hammer comes for making wads I order a 24 mm hollow punch because nothing is available here. this cork wad for 24,5 mm signal pistol cartridges would be an option but you cant buy them. |
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Lancaster - Your simple single shot is most endearing, a plain gun that I find most attractive I am a lover of the large bores, having several (posted here), but not a pinfire, so this is new for me The use of a Jones underlever surprises me for a continental gun (you may happily correct me) I thought they usually used a Lefaucheux lever? Your endeavours of making pinfire cases is well beyond me Good luck in your shooting and many thanks for posting such an interesting gun TH44 |
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its right that you see more of this with the Lefaucheux underlever and this having also advantages of its own. the belgian firms like Francotte had a very big connection to the british market so they working allways with a look on the style preferred there. |
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That’s a big gun! |
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so the 24 mm hollow punch came today and because the felt is all gone I use different cardboard to made wads for some experimental cartridges.the black powder is some cheaper stuff ( fg) from czechia I use to load shotgun cartriges. the 2,5mm shot is home made stuff I bought once for half of Haendler& Natermann shot prices only to load such cartridges for testing. like usual the wads are a little bit bigger in diameter than 24,0 mm having perfect fit in the case with +/- 24,3mm inside. tetra pak paper ( seems only to be invented to make over powder wads), 3 thick card board wads and again a wad made from tetra pack paper to see what happen I made a 12 ga, 10 ga and 8 ga load into the cases starting with 80 grains / 32 gramm shot 12 ga. the 12 ga load will probably shot like a .22 in the thick bertha. we will see... original 4 ga 4" load was 246 grains BP and 92 gramm shot but because this is a 3 3/4" cartridge proofed gun I start now with 216,5 grains BP and 82 gramm shoot added another thick cardboard wad to the load and fill the case with an overshot wad the cases were sealed with hot paraffin the 1000 gramm blackpowder bottle gives 71 loads and 5000 gramm shot bag gives 61 loads 90 cent for the shot 49 cent for the powder 3 cent for the primer wads for free, only work make 1,42 euro for one cartridge |
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fire 5 cartridges on friday, still living cardboard maybe 70cm x80 cm the "12 ga load" at 35 meter was like shooting a rimfire! the "10ga" noticeable the "8 ga" first load when you know you come into a higher class real 4 ga. load, powerful but good to shoot, no problem at all and not nearly like the painful 9,3x64 from a light made rifle the 4 ga with 2,5 mm shot at 50 meter bystander saying most of the pellets hiting the sand before the cardboard so I was maybe aiming a little bit low would be a problem for a goose to find a way across but what I need now is 3,5 or 4mm shot the 4 ga left, the 12 ga right dont know why the light load holding the case clean, maybe the pressure inside is not high enough to blow gas back. screws are not completely tight made a new cleaning rod with an old bottle brush some gas blowing backwards but with the pin fire action there is no problem because it will never reach the lock. everything else is cleaning with a wet cloth after shooting. before and after cleaning, barrel inside have some marks but not very deep wads looking good after passing the barrel |
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That 4 gauge load has a LOT of powder & shot.....you would have felt that going off & it was definitely the best pattern wise! Bigger shot of say No2 shot(3.76mm) would certainly make it lethal for goose! |
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Excellent! |
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Agreed - excellent indeed! #2 or #3 shot would be a great goose load, if in lead. old saying: "less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead" This worked well in my "Field London" 12 bore BP loads SxS, second in trap, shooting against a hammered, single shot choked gun (a bunch of those in the match). Used 2 3/4 dram load with 1 1/4oz. shot. Smoked most of them. Had one more miss (easy shot too but missed) than the winner. I am not suggesting you use this load, but the basic concept. |
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Love pinfire guns. Thanks for continuing to amuse us with your interesting taste, Lars. |
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Neat project! Here's a SFM 4g box of mine: |
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after the first try last year http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....e=0&fpart=8 the 4 gauge pinfire was out for goose hunting again yesterday had 3 cartridges in the pocket because I asume it would not have been possible to have more then 3 possibilitys until they were gone. same location and a inspection by the chief the evenning before got to a guess of 5000 goose sleeping there. again they came late - in the very last light while we were waiting in the reeds. the first shoot had no succes, maybe to far away and I still learning after firing full power cartridge No. 4 until now. reload and with the next shoot a goose fall from the sky some meter behind me. than the case was sticking and I had to use the ramrod with brutal force to get it out. examination showing the steel case was split, maybe because I turn it down with to much tolerance in the chamber. reload and with the next goose it makes only click to my surprise. unload it and it was the fired case number one I grab in the beginning darkness so no wonder. third cartridge also down another goose, my neighbor said because the feather were burned. a bad pic showing the 4 ga laying on the goose in the darkness in this country I was probably the only one this year shooting goose with a 4 ga pinfire. don't know how many were used this year on this planet. like allways when shooting a gun in a hunting situation you don't notice noise and recoil. think I am able to shot the 4 gauge from the shoulder for some time. hunter on the other side of the pond who don't know what was coming told me later my first shoot was like a big bang and thereafter the light was out. after needing 3 hours to make the goose kitchen ready today I know that two cartridges are enough next time for don't shot more of them. with more practise I would say you get any goose with the gun that comes closer to you. the 4 mm pellets make some serious damage sometimes one hunter there was so fascinated he would like to have such a fowler now. |
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Well done. I see lots of pin-feathers to pluck. |