| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 28/05/14 11:24 PM |
the Ideal gun
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because of the rarity of this gun
a french Ideal double in 12 ga for sale in denmark http://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/french-ideal-sporting-gun-calibre-12/i3425099/
Description:
French Ideal sporting gun, calibre 12, number 2 of a pair, serial number, 20819, 74 cm clean barrels with loose action, 36 cm, stock with roll strap and repairs, leather case with accessories, hunting licence required.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/05/14 12:32 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Really cool guns.
lunette triggers too!
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 29/05/14 04:21 AM |
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What strange trigger guards. I wonder how they would feel in actual use?
| TH44 |
| (.375 member) |
| 01/06/14 07:23 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Lancaster - Interesting and unusual, but very attractive, you certainly find things of interest!
Many thanks for your efforts
TH44
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 01/06/14 05:55 PM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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yes, very unusual
was the very first time I have seen this gun but know this by seeing it in old catalogues. there is no other gun like this so you cant confound it.
quick search found another for sale in france and where they at home. I think it was a high quality double gun in its days.
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-Juxtapose-Manufrance-Ideal-Lunettes-Canon-Damas-item-1825337.html
12 ga with damscus steel barrels, 1700 euro for an old gun is a fresh start but its possible the real value - nitro proof?
if they ever build double rifles with this action?
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 01/06/14 07:06 PM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Quote:Havenīt seen any but shonguns you could see for sale in eGun now and then.
if they ever build double rifles with this action?
| Sville |
| (.400 member) |
| 02/06/14 03:13 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Yes very unusual. Is it the safe besides the triggers?
| TH44 |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/06/14 09:21 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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The more I look, the more there is to see and like on these guns
A "round action" (or almost), "doll's head" extension, double screws in the tang, almost English rose and scroll engraving as well as the ring triggers and safety
I would certainly have one in my collection if it were not for the repressive UK firearms laws mean it would have to be kept locked away
TH44
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 02/06/14 11:56 AM |
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I've handled a couple of these, been lusting for one for years and years.
Very nice handling and amazingly well built, artistic guns.
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 03/06/14 02:41 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Thank you for posting! I love these old Manufrance Ideals, I don't have one yet but one is on the "wish list." Though, I'd prefer not to have the "lunette" trigger guard.
They had many high quality features that were unusual on a gun of this price range: chopper lump barrels and a variation of the "rising bite", and being a round action gun.
They also did make double rifles on this action. I don't have my Ideal book handy so I can't give you the caliber range but from memory is was the various metrics and also a few of the British large calibers (I want to say 500bpe or NE but I'd have to check when I get back home later this month).
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 03/06/14 02:54 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Quote:
They also did make double rifles on this action. I don't have my Ideal book handy so I can't give you the caliber range but from memory is was the various metrics and also a few of the British large calibers (I want to say 500bpe or NE but I'd have to check when I get back home later this month).
this informations would be most welcome
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 03/06/14 03:11 AM |
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No worries, I'll do it when I get back home (I'm still in India for another two weeks).
They were a high quality double and had various grades, with the high grades with nice engraving etc. The wood and wood working (like most classic French guns) tends to be rather modest/plain by British standards. However, the hand work required to make the action etc. was eventually the downfall of the gun, they were too nicely made for the price point in the market and were eventually dropped by Manufrance (they did try a combination Robust-Ideal etc. as well).
It comes from this book which is a must for those interested in Ideals:
| Igorrock |
| (.400 member) |
| 03/06/14 04:04 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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I found these pictures from internet:
| DORLEAC |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/06/14 06:45 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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My contribution to the knowledge of this remarkable fine gun.
DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 29/06/14 02:12 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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see the ideal gun when looking for something in the old AKAH catalog
price can tell a little bit about the quality of a gun, not allways.
no doubt the ideal gun was better than most other shotguns.
you see it here in different qualitys: Mod.0 starting at 190 Mark when you get a simple no name hammergun for 35 Mark
Mod. 1, 2 and than a Mod. 2R, 3R, 4R and 6R with quadruple looking. the Mod 6R for 560 Mark what brings it into the class of the Diamant Orloff.
| Chasseur |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/07/14 06:22 PM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Quote:Quote:
They also did make double rifles on this action. I don't have my Ideal book handy so I can't give you the caliber range but from memory is was the various metrics and also a few of the British large calibers (I want to say 500bpe or NE but I'd have to check when I get back home later this month).
this informations would be most welcome
Ok finally remembered to look at this. According to my Ideal book (p. 14) the following were standard calibers offered:
1887 (start date of Ideals) until 1897: "500 Express" (I strongly believe this is 500bpe or nitro for black, author gives the following ballistics: 570meters per second, charge with 9 grams of large black powder)
1897 to 1908: "Caliber 50" (maybe 500NE?)
1909: 450NE, "375 English" (2 1/2"), and 303 British (as is shown in the catalogue scans above)
1910: added 405 WCF
1911: 450NE dropped and 8mm Lebel added
1914: outbreak of WWI and double rifle Ideal manufacture stopped
1925: Recommence of manufacture of double rifle Ideals, in 8mm Lebel, 450 NE.
1931: reintroduction of 405WCF
1937: 8mm Lebel replaced by "375 magnum" (I assume the flanged H&H).
1939: outbreak of WWII double rifle manufacturing stopped for the last time.
There were also custom orders for various calibers like: 8mm Lebel, 11mm Gras (the French service cartridge before the 8mm Lebel in the 1870s-80s), 6.5 Daudeteau, 11mm Werndl, 7.92 German, 6.5 Mannicher-Carcano, and 303 British.
NOTE: the author of the book is mostly a shotgun guy, and I have the feeling that some of his names/designations is not entirely accurate, but I am reproducing it "as is".
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 02/07/14 07:16 PM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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The 1910 Manufrance catalog offered these double rifles on the IDEAL Action:
"IDEAL-EXPRESS" in .450 NE, .375 2 1/2" NE ( not the .375 H&H Flanged Magnum, .303 British
Additionally, there was the "COLONIAL IDEAL", a paradox type ball and shot gun in 16 and 12 bore.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 03/07/14 05:10 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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I presume in the big Nitro Express caliber the gun dont had the lunette triggerguard because this would break the finger.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 03/07/14 05:34 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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heaven no
just take a look and there is a BPE ideal double rifle for sale in france just now. it seems the seller is not clear about the double rifle if this is a 450 or 500 BPE but a weight of 3 kg seems me more likely a 450 BPE or what do you think?
http://www.naturabuy.fr/MANUFRANCE-express-IDEAL-pontet-lunette-item-1824228.html
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 04/07/14 10:32 PM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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I hope you excuse my little fascination for the ideal double
what for a beautyful clour case hardening
16 ga!
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-Manufrance-Robust-Ideal-274-item-1661046.html
a engraved 12/65
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-ideal-luxe-grave-lunette-calibre-12-65-item-1602533.html
a 12 ga
http://www.naturabuy.fr/FUSIL-MANUFRANCE-IDEAL-LUNETTES-modele-O--item-1976193.html
a 16 ga
http://www.naturabuy.fr/Fusil-juxtapose-...em-1978738.html
the 1910 Manufrance catalog
| canvasback |
| (.224 member) |
| 05/01/17 03:48 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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Quote:
No worries, I'll do it when I get back home (I'm still in India for another two weeks).
They were a high quality double and had various grades, with the high grades with nice engraving etc. The wood and wood working (like most classic French guns) tends to be rather modest/plain by British standards. However, the hand work required to make the action etc. was eventually the downfall of the gun, they were too nicely made for the price point in the market and were eventually dropped by Manufrance (they did try a combination Robust-Ideal etc. as well).
It comes from this book which is a must for those interested in Ideals:
I know I am coming to this thread several years late but....
I currently own a higher grade Ideal and have bought (and sold) another three. Perhaps the most ergonomical shotgun out there and as has been noted, the incredibly simple action is known to be extremely strong.
They were made continuously (except for during the wars) between 1888 and 1985, not a bad run. Total production of the Ideal is around 85,000 to 95,000. Exact figures are impossible to come by because of changes to record keeping after WWII. The pre WWII production was 72,000. So not "rare". Manufrance (like most of French industry) was mostly happy to service it's home market, unlike the English whose economic might was founded on trade. So most of the output from Manufrance (950,000 Robusts - a conventional boxlock - alone!) still reside in France. Much like the way we don't find many Parkers or Foxes in Europe, but there are lots in NA.
As far as wood goes??? I think chasseur has been looking at lower grade guns. Here's mine:
Like many large concerns, Manufrance had the ability and resources to make what their clients wanted.
And Ideals weren't "dropped" by Manufrance. Manufrance effectively closed up shop. MF was both a manufacturer and a retailer and by the mid 1980's their problems were far greater than the hand labour involved in producing Ideals.
I would not buy a "Lunette" the double trigger guard model. Made from 1888 to 1908, they are clumsy and difficult to use with gloves.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 05/01/17 07:24 AM |
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Re: the Ideal gun
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french walnut at its finest