NitroX
|
| (.700 member) |
| 06/02/04 06:32 PM |
|
Big bore damage on game animals
|
I have seen comments on forums claiming big bores don't really do much more or even less damage to game meat than medium calibres.
Is this true ?
I can certainly say every medium sized animalI can remember shooting with a .375 has been very damaged with often huge gaping bloody mess wounds.
| Dark_Helmet |
| (.333 member) |
| 06/02/04 07:30 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
its less about the caliber than bullet construction and velocity.
at middle distances, and with something akin to a 375 300gr A-Frame, small game will just have a hole in it. with a 30-378 165gr soft-point or Ballistic Tip, HUGE mess, MASSIVE expansion and bullet fracture.
woodleigh softs would be a bad bullet to try this with, especially the old-style sub-2000fps impact velocity versions.
basically it boils to this... if the bullet is going below its design velocity range (relative to the animals structure), it will not expand and just pass through. if it is too soft or too fast (some may say this is less an issue) it will create a gaping hole. I shot a small buck at 35 FEET, with a 117gr BoatTail Soft in a 25-06 loaded to 2990, that should give me an impact velocity VERY near 2900fps.
bullet just passed through the heart and lungs (no bone structure) and the exit wound did not indicate significant expansion/fracture... it appeared as if the exit would was between some .35 and .50" vs. the entry wound an even quarter.
make of it what you will... I suspect the real arguement is that Ballistic Tips damage a ton of meat and real "hunting bullets" (i.e. Partition or better) don't.
| nopride2 |
| (.300 member) |
| 07/02/04 02:17 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Ya gotta damage something to kill em.
Dave
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 07/02/04 03:10 AM |
|
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
| Holmes |
| (.300 member) |
| 07/02/04 12:33 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
I've blown the lungs out of many an antelope (100-125#), with 300 grain Partitions (375 H&H). Damage was dramatically less than that of my friend's 7mm Rem Mag shooting Partitions on antelope.
Hornady 270 soft points out of my H&H left some pretty impressive exit wounds in the antelope.
I believe bullet construction and impact velocity have much more effect upon meat damage than does calibre.
That 7mm mag hits at a much higher velocity than my old H&H does given the same prey range.
So many variables, e.g., homogenous tissue, bone density, animal size, etc., all render the topic quite variable.
Similar to the endless studies involving stopping power in the combat handgun genre.
We do ask much of our projectiles, eh?!
|
NitroX
|
| (.700 member) |
| 07/02/04 12:39 PM |
|
|
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
The bullets I was using were Woodleigh 300 gr RNSP. Driven at a moderate velocity of around 2450 fps.
I believe the RNSP are a bit softer or expand more than the protected points. I haven't tried these in 300 gr yet and aim to give them a try next.
The RNSP's also gave me some feeding problems except if they were nicely rammed home. This is common with Mausers sometimes. I guess the action may need some fine tuning too.
| luv2safari |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/02/04 05:02 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Where legal to do so, I like big bore solids for smaller and medium game. It solves both problems...kills well and leaves no craters on the exit side.
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/02/04 09:21 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Nitro, I shot a cow elk a few years at almost 180 yds. as she was turning away to boogie on me. I shot her with my 375 H&H with Speer 285's, 4 down and 1 up. I punched straight through both shoulders and she went down in a heap with her legs splayed out. I worried about the meat damage and saw that like Elmer Keith said years ago, you could eat all the way up to the bullet hole.
| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 09/02/04 05:49 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
NitroX, I used to hunt Coyotes, and Bobcats for their skins, and my favorite long range Muledeer rifle is a 243 Win useing 100 gr Hornady square base spitzer soft point @ 3000 fps! This combination bucks the wind that is always present in the North American Southwest canyon country, and kills like a bolt of lightening, on 250 pound Muledeer! This load causes little meat damage on those deer, so it follows I would try this combination on the YOTEs, and Bcats. Bad idea!!!!!!!!!!!
The first coyote I shot through the chest, not hitting the shoulder, blew a 10" hole in the chest hide on the far side. I had another rifle that used the same bullet, but was a little wildcat I made up to shoot in a little BSA Martini Kadet. This little cartridge was the 256 Magnum necked down to 6mm with no other changes! Ecentually a 357 mag pistol cartridge,necked down th 6mm. This little cartridge only pushed the 100 gr Hornady at 2200fps out of a 20" barrel. This combination did no damage to the skin other than about .45 cal exit hole!
What this all means to me is, it is the velocity more than anything else, because the bullet traveling at the same velocity, (3000 fps) did very little damage on the deer, yet blew the Yote away, while at 2200 fps the same bullet did no damage to the Yote, and killed deer very well too, at shorter range.
Certainly the bullet construction/speed combination, is a factor, but between the two factors, the velocity is the real culprit, IMO!
I use 300 gr Nosler Partitions in my 375 H&H @ 2550 fps,that pinnitrates both shoulders of a Cape Buffalo, yet I have shot little Impala stone dead in their tracks, without undue damage to the cape! However, I do stay out of the shoulder bones on the small stuff.
Then, on the other end, I shot a big Elk bull from 35 yds with a 577NE double rifle useing a 750 gr soft point,@ 1800 fps, and you could eat right up to the hole, and the elk never knew what hit him. In fact, he went down so fast, I did not see him fall, and thought I had missed, till the guy calling him in told me he was down! I never shot a coyote with the 577, however, to compare!
| mstarling |
| (.224 member) |
| 10/02/04 02:31 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
I don't have a lot of experience here, but this last year I've taken two white tails and a hog with doubles.
The first white tail was taken with a .470 NE Searcy loaded with cast 500 gr GC FP bullets propelled at 1500 fps. Nice 45/70 class round. Range was 55 yards. Terminal ballistics resulted in a wound that was actually a bit cleaner than I would have expected with a 150 grain bullet from a .308 Win. IN other words, not bad.
The second deer was taken with a 270 Speer from a 9.3x74R Chapuis at 60 yards. Not much meat damage and a good immediate kill.
The hog was taken with the Chapuis as well. The bullet failed in that when it hit the main bone in the left front upper leg, it deflected and went cross body. However, the mess aside ... the meat damage was minimal and the hog expired within 20 yards.
On the same trip, a buddy hit one in the front shoulder with a 7mm Rem Mag. It destroyed both front shoulders ... front end of the pig was a mess!
So far, I've been very favorably impressed with doubles on light game. Going to switch to Woodleighs and Noslers with the Chapuis (yes, Chapuis says the use of partitions is fine!)
mike
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 10/02/04 06:11 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
The big bores simply make a different kind of wound..It is a longated large core cut out of the animal, it bleeds profusly and does not damage a lot of meat by comparison and the wound channal is pipelike in design.....
The high velocity rounds shock, destroy surrounding tissue and meat. The wound channal is bulbus in design...
The Hi-vel calibers can kill like the hammer of Thor, but they also tend to fail on ocassion by exploding on the surface of the animals skin..They seem to me to do very well on light, high strung animals, but not so good on big heavy boned animals...where the big bores do much better..
I like to use a big bore like a 375 or 416 on deer and elk, as it does save meat waste and kills with 100% surity, albeit they may run a 100 yds or so, but they will leave a good blood trail, that a blind man can follow......
I won't argue the point of which is better, as both have their place in the scheme of things
| WyoJoe |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/02/04 11:45 AM |
|
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
I took a little mule deer buck with a 235 gr Barnes X in a .375 H&H. He went maybe 125 lbs. on the hoof. The .375 did not do as much damage as the Nosler Balistic Tip did with my .300 H&H.
| cr500 |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/02/04 12:40 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
I know that when Ive hit dingos and roos with my 458 with 500gn woodleighs (Its what I had when we came across the dingo),it didnt make as much mess as if hit with my 308 with 125 Balistic tips, less than my 44 mag with 200 bullets. I suppose the bullet didnt open up on such a small animal. It still made it very very dead though.
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/02/04 12:46 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
I just can't wait to try some Bridger's just on pigs and deer as there will be absolutely no bloodshot meat and have a "square" hole through and through.
| DaveJames |
| (.275 member) |
| 18/02/04 05:42 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Haven't really hunted big game, other than a couple of water bulls in RVN, but have hunted black bear and deer with my 45-120Sharpes, loaded with a 715 grain soft cast , over 113 grains of ffg,,it seems to tear up less meat then my 06, it just ounches one hell of a hole thru and thru
| Holmes |
| (.300 member) |
| 18/02/04 05:51 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
By the gods, how long is that 715 grain, 45 calibre projectile?!
Are you by chance doing the paper jacket thing?
I'll bet that load certainly whacks those deer with a bit of authority, eh?
| 475Guy |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/02/04 06:44 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Any heavyweight 45 caliber bullet will do that with enough initial speed. The problem is trying to find that one load that is accurate.
| quigleysharps |
| (.224 member) |
| 19/02/04 12:31 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Give me a big bore any day. Not near the meat damage compared to the high velocity rounds. Have shot a few deer with the ole Sharps and have never had the meat damage that my brother-in-laws .264winmag produces. We throw away alot of meat from that little round. Dead is dead, mines just a hellava lot cleaner dead. Give me a big ole slow lead bullet anyday.Plus the fact I'd like to watch some of these guys with their super mags sit down and run 50-100rds through one at a setting
, alot of them I know, it grieves them to run a half dozen through.
| DaveJames |
| (.275 member) |
| 19/02/04 06:11 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Holmes it started life as a mould for a 460 Wearherby that had been mis cut, its set up for a gas check, but I don't use them, just grease and over powder wads, and the drop tube and pressure seater.
The slug itself is about 2"
Haven't tried paper patching yet, but have begun reading up on it, Have been playing with the idea of having the gas check portion milled off, to have just a flat base
| **DONOTDELETE** |
| () |
| 19/02/04 05:48 PM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
I would tend to agree with NitroX and that is based on using the 300 Hornady round nose in 375 and the 500 grain Hornady in 460 Wby.
The times when I have mostly seen these calibres do the big damage is with gut shots. They often seem to empty the whole gut on the ground.
If I had to make a guess I think one of the reasons that the Australian Big Bore shooter will have a different opinion to the American is because of the volume of "white tail deer" size animals that are shot and also because a lot of the animals will get hit in the guts. In addition we are not looking at "meat damage"
In my experience if you went out and shot 100 kanagaroos with each of the following calibres:
243
270
308
300 Magnum
375
460
and then from each 100 animals shot you selected the 20 animals with most external damage then the 460 would easily be the winner and the 375 H&H next.
One of the things that I have found is that harder bullets often produce the most external damage. For example the big damage I have seen from the 375 H&H has been with 300 grain Hornady round noses, not 220 grain Hornady Flat noses. The 460 had done the most damage with 500 Hornadys rather than 400 grain Speer Flat Noses.
But the softer bullets provide more "instant death". Large male Red kangaroos hit at the bottom of the chest with 300 Hornady Round Nose or 500 Hornady in the 460 often have a huge exit but the animal is alive when you go up to it. But the same hit from a 220 grain flat nose Hornady in the 375 or a 400 grain Speer loaded in 458 or loaded back in 460...and the animal is dead before it hits the ground. Ditto for 308 130 grain Speer Hollow Point.
Mike
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 21/02/04 05:22 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Mike,
I agree with you, but the RN Hornady is a very soft bullet, were you to use a tougher bullet then you would get more of a drilling solid effect...
It is all about bullet construction at known velocity....as to internal damage and meat bruising...
I have shot many impala with big bores that you could eat right up to the bullet hole...a good examplel is the 250 gr. Nosler on Impala and I have used it many times on them as well as the 300 gr. Nosler, they will run a 100 yards and leave a light blood trail about every time and meat damage is almost none existant with that tough bullet, unless you strike a major bone...
| **DONOTDELETE** |
| () |
| 21/02/04 06:41 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
It really depends greatly upon the bullet's construction, the bullet's velocity, and what the bullet hits.
Big bore solids do not seem to generate as much damage as a 30-06, 165gr Corelokt. I am speaking of .458 and .510 in solids, by the way.
Having said that, a 405gr Remington FP (45-70 bullet) travelling at 2270 fps out of a 458 Win mag generates massive tissue trauma, read BIG wound channel, in an elk or large bodies whit tail deer (probably in smaller ones too just haven't shot any).
The 570 gr Woodleigh soft point does considerably more damage than a 200gr SGK in the body of a bison. The big Woodleigh having a muzzle velocity of ~ 2350 fps generates a wound channel ~ 4" diameter, while the 200gr SGK with a muzzle velocity of ~ 2800 fps generates a wound channel ~ 2" in diameter.
Have shot feral dogs with 190 SMK and they did a considerable amount of damage. I have also shot feral dogs with a 416 Rigby and 410 Woodleigh softs, which only made 0.416" holes completely through the animals carcass. Both killed with stunning authority.
So I would have to say that a thin jacketed big bore bullet driven at suitable speed will generate far more tissue trauma than a small or medium bore bullet of stouter construction, even though it is driven at greater speed. Conversely, a stoutly constructed big bore bullet will typically produce less tissue trauma than a like constructed medium bore bullet when the medium bore bullet is driven faster than the big bore bullet.
Just my opinions based upon personal experiences I have had.
Scott
| **DONOTDELETE** |
| () |
| 21/02/04 07:49 AM |
|
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
Ray,
But what I was comparing the 300 round nose to was the 220 flat point.
My theory is that when compared to something like a 110 grain 270 or a 220 grain 375 Hornady flat nose, the 300 round nose expands a bit on the nose and since it is almost a wadcutter to start with then a bit of expansion will make it a bigger calibre with a flat nose.....then because of its weight it actually travels through the animal like a roo or pig at much high velocity than does the 110 grain 270 or 220 grain 375 flat nose....and more importantly it hits the offside of the animal at much higher velocity and hence the frequently observed huge exits.
Mike
| Mbogojoe |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/02/04 08:10 AM |
Re: Big bore damage on game animals
|
I have shot many deer with a shotgun and slugs, one with my 375 H&H, and one with my 460 WBY. Now I am no forensics expert but what I can tell you is that comparing the 460 to the shotgun is that the entrance and exit holes were very similar the big difference was what happened inside the deer. With the shotgun it is a normal wound you would expect with a .50 slug at 1200fps (or somewhere in that range) but with the 460 ( 400gr) it was like gutting a boll of soup (50 yards distance or so on both shots). The 375 well it looked like a 375 small hole in bigger hole out and animal was dead in its tracks. Surprisingly with the 460 I double lunged and hit heart it still went about 20 yards but than again I am used to a shotgun and I try to hit just behind the shoulder blade in which case it always takes them a few yards before they figure out they are dead.
Any way that’s just what I remember I didn’t have my tape measure on me so the only thing I really know for sure is that the deer were killed quickly and I had a good hunt.
| CardiacDoc |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/03/04 03:35 PM |
|
Some of you may find this interesting...
|
Some of you may find this interesting:
www.neurosurgery.org/education/cme/homestudy/136/chapter3.html
CardiacDoc
| atkinson6 |
| (.375 member) |
| 28/03/04 06:57 AM |
|
Re: Some of you may find this interesting...
|
Also one has to consider that when you hit heavy bone the the big bores can make a rather dramatic wound channal...
Also on Big animals like Buffalo the big bores make a more dramatic internal wound that the small bores would...
In other words in ain't cut and dried.. With big bores,If you use a tough bullet on antelope and stay off the shoulder then you have very little meat damage and can eat right up to the hole..if you use a soft bullet it can tear hell out of everything, especially if you hit the shoulder....