(.375 member)
23/12/05 02:53 PM
12GA From Hell

Got some testing done with 12GA FH using
730 gr Dixie Terminator hard slugs..First the gun is 25 lb built on a Savage 210 action,
heavy barrel 31 in long.Stock is full of
lead shot and epoxy in the butt section..
We got 2700 fps top speed with TERMINATOR
lead slugs.No leading..All shooting done with one case to see how they hold up,over 2 dozen
firings and no resizing needed on the bottom
2/3 of the case yet, only size the top 1/3 to
grip bullet..cases fall out of chamber, and I have a minimum 12 gauge chamber as it is tight fit to get regular 12ga shot shell in it.Cases are made from BMG brass
that we put Rims on.Uses BMG primer.John at Bridger
made the rims, and put them on.

Loads done so far with 730 gr Terminator--

230 gr HBMG---1550 fps
280 ge HBMG---2000 fps---21k load

260 gr W860---2200 fps
300 gr W860---2400 fps---27k load

250 gr 7383---2560 fps---35k load..slight comp.

260 gr Magpro-2430 fps
300 gr Magpro-2700 fps---35k load-11,800 ft lbs.

As this crappy weather allows,
Will test 750 gr Bridger bullet; and
A Barnes 3/4 oz sabot(should get 4 grand).

Maybe we can find a way to get a thick walled reciever done to put the Savage bolt, bolt carrier, trigger etc on,with slightly larger
barrel thread..Then it would have safety margin for 50-55k loads.. The 3 lug bolt will hold if in thicker reciever...It is a real super smooth
operating action.

Rob on AR got his going also. His action is a Borchardt
falling block.He got 750 gr Bridger over 3000 fps,
15000 ft lbs energy.He can run full pressures as action
was made for 50 cal BMG.Ed Hubel

(.400 member)
23/12/05 03:04 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


(.375 member)
23/12/05 06:43 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

But can you hit the side of the barn with it.

(.375 member)
24/12/05 03:59 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We got it through the wires on the chrono at
20 ft.Muzzle blast could knock small barn down.
back stop is a big banded pallet of slabwood about 6 ft
through and it shakes when those slugs impact.
Did testing with 3/4 oz Barnes sabots, got out at about 3900 fps, using 300 gr of H-335 ball powder.Ed.

(.375 member)
02/01/06 03:13 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

This is really just smokeless version of the old BP bore guns. They were king in their day. Exactly what creature on the plant needs this cannon? And how many bearers are needed to carry it for you?


(.375 member)
08/01/06 01:13 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Gun handles nice, has good balance.Very good for
stopping dangerous game.And making holes in target easy to see without a scope. Tailgunner came down today
and fired off a few rounds,and did it easy.And he
is a smaller guy than me by 90 lbs.Ed.

(.416 member)
08/01/06 01:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have been following this development for years, originally over on AR. Good to see it reach completion. Many of these "hare-brained schemes" never make it past the drawing board. Congratulations, mate!

BTW, you are obviously nuts, however the symptoms are shared by many of us here!

(.375 member)
17/01/06 12:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Marrakai--Thanks..We tested 750 gr Bridger hollow
base brass bullet got it to 2520, at about 33k psi.
We checked bolt lugs and seats on Savage and no signs of

(.375 member)
17/01/06 04:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I know about those holes, my 12 bore punches those too. I shot my 458 cal and the 12 bore into the same target, it was laughable to see the difference.

Who says size doen't matter!


Bigger is always better!

(.375 member)
17/01/06 04:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

How about some pictures?


(.224 member)
18/01/06 03:23 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You really do have some awsome #'s there. Would love pix the only thing that keeps that thing from knocking you down has to be the wheight, and the four guys holding the gun up>>> sounds like fun...

Recoil Builds Character!!!

(.375 member)
19/01/06 04:21 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pictures of cases-1st is our case next to
12ga plastic case-2nd is BMG case with rim put on
next to fired case, fireformed from first case, and with
730 gr Dixie Terminator slug loaded in it.Ed

(.375 member)
25/01/06 02:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pic of my gun and one below of Rob's--

(.400 member)
25/01/06 08:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


(.375 member)
06/02/06 02:09 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the Savage 210 three lug
bolt, next to an Enfield bolt to show the size
and it can be used for NE Cartridges.Got a fellow
who is going to use one to make 700NE. Rims are .880
same as 12ga diameter and 700NE base is .780 in
where our 12ga base is .801..Ed.

(.600 member)
07/02/06 04:32 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Check out for loads for the .700 Nitro Express in a bolt gun. They ran 1,000gr. bullets up to 2,450fps but wwere plagued with hang-fires until they used 2gr. of bullseye to kick the charge off better. They also used .50BMG brass, I believe.
: Be carefull in your loading and start quite conservativley.

(.375 member)
07/02/06 10:37 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

They used regular 700NE cases with mickey
mouse primers, which can hangfire without
bullseye.. With our case built from bmg we have
a primer 3 times as powerful, and it starts
230-320gr of slow powder fine.My 700HE a
long straight belted case, soon to be
tested is built from bmg brass and won't have no
hangfires, and it will add at least 500 more fps,
than the NE.Ed

(.600 member)
07/02/06 06:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

OK so, in your words, they used mickey-mouse cases, well that makes you even as you are using mickey-mouse bullets - 260gr.- my word! That's too light for my .375 let alone a .73 cal rifle. At least they used 1,000gr. bullets. ;-)
: You say YOUR ctg. is going to get 500fps higher than the 700 Nitor Express?? You're saying you are going to make or beat 2,950fps with a 1,000gr. bullet? That will be something. I'm champing at the bit to see that.

(.375 member)
08/02/06 01:39 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Daryl--my 12ga bullets are 730gr-- The 260 grain
figure is in the range od powder weights.One load
Rob had was 2000 gr.The only light bullet I used in
12ga was a 3/4 oz sabot just to test it
for somebody.Be shooting heavier in couple weeks.
860 gr for somebody, 1100gr later on....
I used that mickey mouse
term because of the marginal primer they have in
the 700 NE relative to the amount of powder.Case
is fine, just primer isn't big enough.....And
everybody has trouble without fast starting powder,
which is a hell of a way to have to do it.
I am telling everybody that has 700NE to put a pocket
in it for bmg primer.They are only little over 20 cents
and it seems out of place to by a 700NE case for
60-100 bucks and not use a big enough primer.
Here we have my lowly Savage at moderate, medium,
pressures. outdoing all the NEs, Nyatis,
TREXs, JDJs, etc..And My 700HE(3.87 in long belted
staight case made from bmg, bmg primer) will be on BMG
rated action and it will get a 1000 grainer over
3000 fps.Ed.

08/02/06 03:13 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Party on! How are the bore guns coming along?


(.375 member)
08/02/06 04:02 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Scott--Got 2 barrels for 2 bore.Ernie should be making
4 bore barrels by summer.Got 4 bore bullets, probably just use shot loads in two as smoothbore(will ream out
the too tall and too fast of twist rifling).Got to
get action.I will test 4 bore in state arms action
for load development.Ed.

(.600 member)
09/02/06 05:15 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

WOW - not for me. I've gotten away from most of the big kickers these last few years. I've only a wildcat .458 and .375 for large bore smokeless ctgs. now. I expect soon to re-barrel a 4140 actioned Sharps to .50 Alaskan in the near future.
: The .17 cal small cases are much nicer to shoot.

(.375 member)
13/02/06 03:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Daryl--Recoil isn't bad, as gun has good weight and
balance-It don't kick any worse than a ten pound
458 Lott,with full loads.When tailgunner fired
it, muzzle only went up 6 inches.Found a long
shotcup that holds 2 oz of buckshot.We will test
that in coupleb weeks.Ed.

(.375 member)
17/02/06 09:29 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Shot 18 buckshot in shotcup, about 700 gr.Case 60%
full of powder, a 16ga wad on top of shot in cup.
All nice tight fit. Pattern at 25 ft was 3 ft due
to wad and rifling..Good redneck defense load??
Your a redneck when all your bigbores are singleshot
and your safari car is a double...Ed

(.375 member)
21/02/06 05:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture the case we fired 36 times,
sectioned.. No thinning to be seen by eye or
measured by calipers..Cases super and will go
couple hundred firings at our pressures..And
they have big primer so no misfires or starter
powders needed.Ed

(.375 member)
26/02/06 01:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Have a fella going to use gun like my 12GA FH
to build is picture showing 700NE in the
loading port.Ed

(.416 member)
26/02/06 01:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That's a pretty slick way to modify the 50 BMG to be a rimmed cartridge!
That thing looks pretty awesome.

(.375 member)
04/03/06 02:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Karl suggested a double, one barrel smooth other rifled.
Here is pic of a heavy spanish made one that may
do the job. We are checking specs now.Ed

(.224 member)
05/03/06 01:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed, your making me nervous.. Good picture!!!!!

(.375 member)
13/03/06 12:31 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

One fella who got some of our extra cases is
going to use an AR-50 bolt action singleshot
for our cartridge.neat idea.Ed.

(.375 member)
19/03/06 11:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Did more checking on Encore. They will work with
a real heavy barrel and a weighted thumbhole
buttstock.And long barrel to get weight and get the blast away from shooter. If I did one I'd make it 20
pounds at least. they will handle moderate pressure
with heavy barrel, muzzle same size as breech, so
that it will hold rifle type loadings.Ed.

(.375 member)
29/03/06 11:43 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is comparison picture of some cartridges--
1st 700NE - 2nd our 12GA FH -- 3rd 700HE...Ed

(.400 member)
31/03/06 08:21 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You are a very sick man.

(.375 member)
03/04/06 02:18 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Had a question about costs per shot--
For me 5 buck per lb surplus powder, hard slug 70 cents,
primer 24 cents, adds up to $1.15 per shot.20 buck, canister
powder makes it $1.75. Not bad considering the
power we are getting.Ed

(.375 member)
21/04/06 02:57 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested a 870gr hardened slug Greg Sappington makes.
Got it to 2300 fps. Lightened it to 730 gr got it over
2500 with no leading.Greg likes that.
Here is picture of 3 with one loaded
in case. I loaded long to get powder space, but you
wouldn't have to.Ed

(.375 member)
29/04/06 10:25 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Fellow from Greece,Lefteris, developed this brass 12ga
slug for both rifled and smoothbores.Uses sabot asit is .629, and 12ga is .729.He will get me a few to speed

(.375 member)
12/05/06 03:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have figured out that all bullets for 500 S&W
will fit in the sabot Barnes uses in the
3/4 oz sabot load that Federal sells.Lighter
505 bullets will work also. And the front section of a 50 bmg bore rider bullet, it
is 2nd in picture in the sabot. It
is 470 grains, really streamlined.And
you can buy them by the ton, just cut back
portion that is .510 diameter off, and that leaves front part for a .500 dia bullet,
1.5 inches long..Good for armor plated chucks.First in picture is original
sabot with Barnes 3/4 oz hollowpoint slug.3rd is the 900gr 600NE slug in my sabot made from heavy shotcup. 4th on the miniature digital scale is an older Barnes .580 cal
saboted slug expanded, it's 435gr.Ed.

(.375 member)
28/05/06 12:29 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard
slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water.
Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint.
First pic is pail with crimped on top.
Pail full and has filler spout capped.
Second pic,impact with water atomising,
and pail blowing apart.In the next small
fraction of a second is third after impact
with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure
down, has bent top of steel frame shelf.
Same blast put jug pieces all over.
Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind
you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed

(.700 member)
30/05/06 03:43 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In reply to:

Poster: hubel458
Subject: Re: 12GA From Hell

Karl suggested a double, one barrel smooth other rifled.
Here is pic of a heavy spanish made one that may
do the job. We are checking specs now.Ed


I am interested in what you discovered about this shotgun. I checked the website and they do not list any specs that the shotgun can be had with a rifled barrel.

Is it your intention to have them make a special order, or modified somewhere else?


(.375 member)
30/05/06 06:40 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That gun only comes smoothbore and its barrels are too
thin at muzzle for our loads.We are checking on

(.375 member)
26/06/06 11:54 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I picked up a 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.24 in shorty barrel.
Added weight and thumbhole stock.
Gun weighted to 15 lbs so
far. I got 600gr hard slug to
1650-1700 so far, and shoots easy.
Got 1 1/2 inch thick pad.Working up different
loads.Should get over 2000.
Cases eject easy,no resizing needed
on bottom half of case,action opens easy,
no evidence of binding.Started case 3.2 inch,
settled on case length of 3.15-- Chamber being
full size max 12ga size expands top half of case
more than my minimum chamber in Savage does,
so little more effort needed to size.Our case, though many times stronger than regular
12ga cases is thinner at mouth, so that is
why I used tight chamber on Savage.Still
can't get used to mickey mouse short barrel.
Anyone know of a genius who could
make long alloy barrel with pivot mounted?
Cases can be 3 inches on up to
our length, and work.Ed

(.375 member)
01/07/06 03:54 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We got 600 gr slug to 2000 fps in NEF.Used ball
powder load. Case length of maximum 3.07 works.
Anyone using our style case should also put in adapter
for shotgun primer. Save a lot of work
beefing up hammer speed and strength.Ed

(.375 member)
10/07/06 03:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The Savage is perking along.Got a 600gr hard
slug out at 3000fps, using a little faster ball
powder. I think 14,000 ft lbs is possible.Ed.

(.375 member)
14/07/06 01:19 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Being some guns(NEF) need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.

(.375 member)
23/07/06 10:42 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Testing RL-25 in Savage, with long case--Got 730 gr
hardened cast slug to 2400 plus with 300 gr RL-25.
Full load. Bottom of cases don't need sizing.

Got a 600 gr out at 3250, 14,000 ft lbs.Bottom
of cases need slight resizing. pushing
40,000 psi. Ball powder load.Savage extracted
cases on that load easy.Ed

(.450 member)
23/07/06 10:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Jeez, who is holding the rifle when it goes off? Must be a handful.


(.375 member)
01/08/06 08:36 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Shot NEF with the RL-25 load, 600 gr.Got 3
shots in 4 inches at 50 yds, with aperture sights and my bad eyes.Got barrel extension
made and will get it on in next couple weeks.
NEF and Original Sav barrel have same twist and grooves, so I am putting heavy part of
left over barrel to good use.I hate shorty barrels.Ed

(.375 member)
25/08/06 02:28 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We are getting a big replica 1887 12ga levergun to
test cases with. It's modern forged heat treated
action, and will go high pressures.Ed

(.375 member)
02/09/06 10:13 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I'm building a 450 NE on that Zabala action at the moment. But that just looks pussy in comparison. I am in awe!

(.375 member)
04/09/06 10:39 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Zabala E213 Magnum is nice gun. Who sells them in US?
We got 1887 12ga levergun here. It 2 & 3/4 inch
chamber. We will test with our case shortened and
Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic. Ed

(.375 member)
13/09/06 10:58 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

(.375 member)
16/09/06 02:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball andRE-7 they look good.
Have got loads with 2 wads in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

(.375 member)
19/09/06 02:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps
with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7.
Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680
load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt
wads, and RE-7 load had same card and
a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense.
Base expansion ahead of thick base was
.002 to .003 and resized without huge effort.
The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with
bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back
some cases for the 87 levergun.About same
loads used in NEF minus wads should do.
Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl.
But I will have loads figured out for
a bunch of guys here and in Australia.
I also feel now that have I found loads that
get velocity without a huge expansion, to
the turned cases that good low base plastic
will do the same velocity, in strong alloy
barreled guns. Ed

(.375 member)
21/09/06 02:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Good news-First tested 87 levergun.
Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case
back to length that feeds from magazine,
2.45 in. That is about max length of any
loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700
with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads.
Cases eject good, expanded a little
ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second
good news. Seeing as how these non traditional
powders used in shotgun didn't expand the
turned cases a lot( in our cases made from
bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand
bases enough to need sizing)............
I figured time to check plastic cases.
Plastic cases took the same load as turned
brass in the NEF.And 100 gr RE-7 in
1887 and we are keeping it down in original barreled
1887 due to plastic cases expanding just
ahead of the rim in two spots due to
extractor cutouts. New barrel will solve
that as we will make cutouts different.
Up to 140 gr RE-7 in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem,
highbase, lowbase, etc. Lowbase extracts easiest.
You who want to get the power that NEF and
1887 are able to deliver use good plastic
cases as a way to get started with
600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated
for those speeds just hard cast
from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887.
It is lowbase and easiest to resize.
To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original.
I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with
copper plating so they are strong. I tried
one of the fast shotgun powders, that
previously expanded the brass
turned case to much, in plastic cases in
NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking
and had expanded quite a bit, but same
case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy,
and resized easy.Ed

(.375 member)
30/09/06 01:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps
and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my
lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock
for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed.

(.375 member)
06/10/06 01:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening
the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of
the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions,
and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size.
It wworks grear with long case. So for brass
use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to
match NEF size, then it won't over work brass
and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier.And
my other base die does Savage.Same
top die will do both top halves. Ed

(.375 member)
14/10/06 03:00 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I got the hammer on 87 beefed up to fire big primers.
Still testing plastic and turned cases in 87.
We are testing small primers with 10gr starter powder(Blue
Dot) and RE-7 and 15.Plastic cases max is 90gr RE-7 with
10 gr starter, turned brass case 110gr RE-7 10 gr starter.
WE had to go to starter powder as we was getting
delayed ignition and squib loads.
Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small
primers and starter powder ... A big find. IE, we can't do
this for reliable ignition if the cases
are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and
the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is
strength. And some plastic I have measured is
only about .060 thick there and the protrusion
in the center for primer is .140 above that
thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is
in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases
off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr
of flake powder and saw how it laid
in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs.
So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks
very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of
RE-12 and the shops have no more, So
it will be RE-15 which I think turning
out best, or RE-7 in smaller

(.375 member)
25/10/06 05:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder.
Plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp with out a high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed

(.375 member)
29/10/06 01:29 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

(.375 member)
01/11/06 03:13 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I want to see this scaled up to take
700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc,
or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else
interested jump in. Were going to give it
a try. Ed.

(.375 member)
03/11/06 12:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

(.375 member)
05/11/06 09:01 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I get questions about whether the IMR 4759
loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF.
Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer
slug load, expands the base of the case
more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get
more speed, in the same kind of
Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us
for sure what we have wrought..Ed.

(.375 member)
13/11/06 04:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
tham our 4759 loads.Ed

(.416 member)
13/11/06 10:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Keep up the good work, Ed.

Makes my eyes water just reading your posts.....

(.375 member)
03/12/06 10:05 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted
to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads.
One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt
handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough
for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4"
chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring
converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use
a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs.
Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal
are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side
of bolt, and put extractor on right side.
Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem
may work, at least with a 2.75" case.
For repeater action, Open mag
well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2
12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed
the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them,
as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed.

(.375 member)
09/12/06 04:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

(.375 member)
17/12/06 03:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

(.375 member)
21/12/06 03:02 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In response to guys who can't find 4759
we will test powders in the same speed range.
Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227.
Both didn't ignite good with small primers
in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying
VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier
and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed

(.375 member)
31/12/06 03:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case. A nice long barrel we'd
have 2050 plus.
On the scaleup model solved the hard cocking
problem by usinf NEF hammer mounted in a
lengthened breech block. It pivots h\behind
the toggle pin and is taller so it cocks easy
even though it has doubled the springs
to fire big primers.Ed

(.375 member)
10/01/07 10:57 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.

(.375 member)
16/01/07 05:11 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Founf info an a double that would work
for making 12GA FH. It's a Spanish 10 ga
on an 8 ga frame that we think Stoeger and
maybe others imported years ago. It says
No. 6 HG on trigger guard. It is over 2 & 3/4"
across outside of both barrels, chopperlump
barrel pivots, with heavy locking lugs,
and A purdey style third fastener.Top lever.
Barrels are big enough to use as monoblocks
to screw in heavy 12ga barrels, with same size
threads as my Savage and it being a huge action
could handle same loads as the Savage.Like
12-17,000 ft lbs. Ed.

(.416 member)
17/01/07 12:58 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A SxS double 12GA FH ?!

NOW you're talking!

(.375 member)
24/01/07 04:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed

(.375 member)
28/01/07 08:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Double pumper 870 big bore. 20 shots
Karl would love this with 600 gr,
4759 loads, if they'd let him have one.
Fires both or one at a time.
Classified on THR.Ed

(.375 member)
01/02/07 11:32 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed

(.416 member)
01/02/07 11:46 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hey Ed, please don't take our lack of replies as a lack of interest, or a lack of praise for your effort and enthusiasm on the jumbo 12.

We're just speechless...!

Keep it coming!

(.375 member)
08/02/07 06:06 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pic of the finished breech block model
for the scaleup action.You can see hammer
and trigger mounted in the rear of the

(.375 member)
14/02/07 03:40 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Another experiment in shotgun/rifle realm is
28GA From Hell. 28ga is .550 bore and with 550Mag
barrels & bullets being made it is a natural. Have one
on bolt gun ready to chamber.Chamber still
will fire shorter cases..Ed

(.400 member)
14/02/07 04:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Man, I gotta agree with Marrakai on this. This is textbook how-to stuff.

(.375 member)
23/02/07 04:52 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested AA2015- VV N130- Norma200- in plastic cases with small primers. They don't fire
dependably. Sqibs and misfires. Have
VV N110 ordered to test.Have had inquiries
about getting our cases shortened for strength
and they want to put in small primer.
They can be adapted with bushing. Ok but
must use 4759 or fast shotgun powders,
if they are used by themselves. Any slower powders, a fast shotgun starter powder
is needed. My testing shows RE-15 with 10gr
of Blue Dot starter is best of all we tested
in slower powders for shorter cases.Ed

(.375 member)
28/02/07 12:49 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the

(.375 member)
09/03/07 05:17 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the rtop rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed

(.375 member)
18/03/07 03:54 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in
3" plastic cases in regular barrels with
4759 or RL-15 and starter powder.
With bullets that heavy you'd have too
high of pressures with 4759
for plastic cases. Possibly could do
it with RL-15 and starter
powder in plastic, but only
in heavy barreled like NEF.

But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for
most uses in plastic.

A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr
Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start
at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't
expand to much to resize.Ed

(.375 member)
23/03/07 01:09 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.

(.375 member)
26/03/07 11:24 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

My Zabala 3 1/2" 12 guage was just reproofed to 3500 bar when it went in after being sleeved to 450#2 NE if that helps for a heavy action.


(.375 member)
31/03/07 01:47 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yes that's what I want to do also go smaller with
28ga and my 510 so as to run 50k pressures.Zabalas are nice.Ed

(.375 member)
11/04/07 02:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

(.375 member)
15/04/07 01:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder does,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first
bunch of loads with 600gr slugs.Ed

(.375 member)
22/04/07 12:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

More VV N-110 testing that we got done.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

(.375 member)
30/04/07 01:18 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect
ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

(.375 member)
06/05/07 11:02 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested 730 gr with 7383,Perfect ignition.
Plastic 3" cases, different brands.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps. Extracts easy.
Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

(.375 member)
20/05/07 12:43 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF.
Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of
7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition.
Cases ejected easy, and has same base
expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383.
Will have these pressure/velocity tested
in few weeks.Ed

(.375 member)
29/05/07 01:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller
than land diameter and got same velocity as
with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure.
Other banded brass slugs with groove debth
same as land raised pressures compared to lead.
Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed

(.416 member)
29/05/07 06:14 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage

Whaa...! 2700 fps with 750gr projectile?!
That's over twelve thousand foot-pounds!

Oops! Sorry...! Gotta go change my shorts...!

(.375 member)
02/06/07 01:09 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Marrakai- That's the same as max I got with
730 gr hardened Dixie lead slug. Finally a
brass solid I really like as far as being able
to load it same as lead or soft jacketed.Ed

(.375 member)
09/06/07 01:44 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

(.375 member)
17/06/07 12:49 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus
barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel
guy is shutting down and returning funds.
Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for
87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is
hard getting projects done.Ed

(.375 member)
24/06/07 11:35 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a simple outline of what we've done with
our project we call the 12GA From Hell.
Some folks have asked us to do this.

A. The idea for this and the name was by
Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how
to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by
machining rims and the case to screw them on.
We ended up with case after mouth was
annealed, fireformed, and expanded to 12ga,
that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer.

B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block,
a gun that can take full BMG type pressures.
It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok.
Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at
3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at
4300 fps.

C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a
heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept
below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with
a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot.
Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber
to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug
at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have
firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers.

D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but
all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc,
to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers
fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I
were using very well, no misfires.
So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases,
our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with
smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers,
that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok,
and found out that our slow rifle powder loads
wouldn't fire reliably with small primers.
The slow powders in large diameter cases
needed BMG primers to work. So to use small primers-

E. We went to much more research. We found that
slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a
fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder,
using small primers. This concept has beeen
used in NE cases. We also searched for rifle
or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders,
that would fire with small primers and no starter,
that didn't up peak pressure to fast as
we increased loads to increase velocity.
We didn't want to over expand RMC brass or
blow out the rims on regular plastic cases
We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus.
These powders are easier to load for slugs without
the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up
the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase
loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum
thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads
under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759
loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less
than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but
we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer
slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested
loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy
barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether
with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, use heavy barrels,
as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel
and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels.

F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win
leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for
various heavy double shotguns, for various
O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to
design a big falling block for 12ga diameter
that can take high full load pressures,
that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing
other powders, for use with small primers. We
plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for
the long 3.85" case, to test the whole range
of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future.
The testing lab now can only do 3" 12ga cases.
We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can
take super velocities, we found brass slugs with
relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead,
or copper jacketed, at same velocities.
We found 7383 powder pushes 870gr safely, full loads,
in 3 inch plastic, RMC 3" brass, etc cases.
This research and work is super great fun,
we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of
the muzzle blast with long case, and pics
of penetration tests. Ed

(.375 member)
30/06/07 03:29 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier
report of 4227 not working was in error
due to what looks like 4198 in a jug
hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago.
Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new
jug, and saw the difference from jug I had.

So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite
properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that works with
real heavy slugs also. Ed

(.375 member)
08/07/07 12:46 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

(.375 member)
08/07/07 02:18 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You mentioned a while ago that you were looking for a long 12 ga rifled barrel, I just imported one from Pac-Nor, I think you would probably know about them, they should be able to make them 30" + for you.
I hope they weren't the barrel guys that returned your money!


(.375 member)
09/07/07 04:08 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I'm dealing with PacNor now. It was Bauska that
closed up. They had better prices but the man is
almost 90 years, times to retire.Ed

(.375 member)
15/07/07 04:49 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

(.375 member)
23/07/07 03:51 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

(.375 member)
30/07/07 08:01 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

(.375 member)
05/08/07 01:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in
3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.
I did the same. This compares to much lighter
REM Buckhammer slug with more speed. Almost all
the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.
I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge
to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.
Will be checking Mossy 395
for a guy who wants to put on
a heavy barrel. Ed

(.375 member)
17/08/07 01:42 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pic of 695 bolt action
Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long
rifled barrel for it. It has a recoil plate
like Rem/Sav, and two rear bolt lugs..Ed

(.375 member)
31/08/07 12:50 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I tested in NEF 3" cases, Alliant 2400 with
small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when
case cooled there was majority of misfires
and squib loads. Don't reccomend it.
Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action
GEHA with a heavy barrel like one I will put
on it Make a good slug gun.Ed

(.375 member)
08/09/07 11:40 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The 12GA From Hell is now on
Ammoguide, the last page of
cartridge list.Ed

(.375 member)
18/09/07 11:54 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Saw info on a break action that
would handle 12ga FH.It is Cole,
with a strong top lock and real wide
strong extractor.Ed

(.375 member)
27/09/07 04:04 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested 3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small
primers. My chamber is long for our
long brass case, so they work fine.....
600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227,
got 2100. Same slug, 180 gr, 7383 surplus,
got 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from 12ga
plastic shotgun cases.Ed

(.375 member)
07/10/07 11:31 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Along with testing loads in 3.5" plastic, later tested same loads
in 3" RMC brass cases; and with 600gr slug, same wt 4227 and
7383 surplus powders got same 2100 fps.I got a MEC Super Sizer
coming to size base of plastic and RMC cases. Both are hard to
resize with regular die, but this will save time and allow many
more firings of the cases.Just got 3.5" plastic for dime each,
and this sizer will allow as many firings as the RMC brass.Ed

(.416 member)
08/10/07 01:42 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You had that shoulder reconstruction yet, Ed?

Hope you guys are having half as much fun making and shooting these things, as we are reading about it!

(.375 member)
13/10/07 03:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A bullet fella contacted me and he will make
750gr jacketed 12ga slugs for buck and a half.
He uses Corbin equipment, and that is a very
great price as others have quoted almost
50% more. Minimum order 500 bullets.He
has to get couple pieces of punch and die
tooling to make them .729" to fit most rifled
barrels, and he will get tooling if we pay
half, which is 300 bucks. I want to find
10 guys to put in 30 each plus order 50 or
a hundred and we have him get tooling ordered.
Contact me so I can see how many want to get
in on the deal.Then after I tally everyone
I will get back to you for the funds for dies
for you to send the them to him..Here is pic
of a sizer we got that does plastic
cases back to factory specs in few seconds
and allows 3 times more reloads. It will
also do the RMC cases I have. No more cases
sticking in dies, or spending 5 min
to get them sized only half assed.ED.

(.375 member)
21/10/07 04:35 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is the Enfield I reamed out to feed 12 gauge and BMG
size cases. I added two rear bolt locking lugs, one the huge bolt
handle and another added that locks in rear bridge. The front lugs
still contact on their top 40 %. This is concept from earlier shown
Mauser shotgun conversions, where they were made from 98
Mausers, giving a bolt action 12ga.This one is chambered for
my belted 700H 3.25" case, as a load developement test gun.
Loads up to 825 gr at 2500. Ed

(.375 member)
26/10/07 12:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The three From Hell cartridges----
My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can
you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed

(.416 member)
26/10/07 06:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


can you guess the 3rd?.

The 40mm Bofors Short? (...from hell?)

(.375 member)
27/10/07 01:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Not that big friend--A great name though-
It is the 8GA From Hell, a real cartridge. 4.3 inch long
brass case. 8 ga shorter plastic case, plan on in same chamber.
The brass kiln gun case isn't as long as mine. Where do
you find the rare 8 ga brass kiln gun cases.
Looking now for guns or actions and barrels. I make it
from 20mm Suzy brass(20mm Hispano Suiza), by putting
on a 8ga size rim and reshaping like we did 12GA FH....Ed

(.375 member)
05/11/07 04:23 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

8ga, we gonna do a couple, first one a test
gun in an Enfield with rear locking lugs.
All locking is in the rear, it is not exactly like
my 700HE one, all lug seats gone in the
front like a Mauser shotgun.
May have a way to get barrels 'fast'---
fast being like 2 weeks, from the time I
have money to do it. And only about
150 bucks each.......Am working on it.
In pic you see long case sticking out of
the action, a couple 8ga plastic cases, a
couple of the 8ga kiln slugs, 3 oz and
hardened. Am looking for a slug built like the
Federal 10 ga one that has rounded nose and
hollow base, that will fit bores tight.
The barrels I am working deal on will be smoothbore.Ed

(.375 member)
10/11/07 04:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Howabout this Long Tom slug gun.....Ed

(.375 member)
19/11/07 05:51 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Got an 8ga barrel blank being made now,
will be here end of the week.Found this
info on plastic 8ga kiln gun loads, they
load a frangible 710gr slug at 2300-
for 8300ft lbs, load 1275gr hard slug to
1700, 8100 ft lbs. We will outdo those easy
with our non-shotgun powder loads, in
a heavy barrel.Ed

(.300 member)
23/11/07 02:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I've noticed none of these have sights or optics(at least in the pics)-is that still a pending development or just simply not necessary for the type of shooting you're doing? That Enfield action with the thumbhole stock is quite the setup.

(.375 member)
24/11/07 12:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Most get shot a lot in the rest for chrono
and load development work. Then if any
lathe work, chamber work, etc, has to be done,
no sights in the way..Then I put on sights
on. My 458HE in the Ruger77 has a scope, the 458HE
in Enfield has aperture sight. these two my first
wildcats from the 90s. Them my 12GA FH in
Savage has aperture, the 12ga FH in Nef is aperture.
My 585HE in Enfied is aperture, The Enfield with
700 nothing yet, the Enfield that I tested 550 mag in,
no sights, and is getting rechambered to a 28GA FH( same bore
as 550), The 1887 not yet. 4 other actions not yet
barreled. You see why I have no time to chase wimmen......
as I do my own work.....Ed

(.300 member)
24/11/07 03:15 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

OK, that explains it-I'd love to have the tools to do all the work myself(still toying with the idea of gettig a NEF and doing the work-have to convince the wife I need an "elephant gun"). Us shooters understand the need, but someone who only shoots rimfires doesn't see why I'd want a bigger gun than what I have.

(.375 member)
01/12/07 02:43 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested 35" smooth barrel in 1887. Got couple
1 oz foster slugs over 2400, with 110gr
of 4227. 3" plastic case, regular primers.
This is a heavy barrel for that type of load,
don't do this in your 12ga skinny barrels.
The 28GA FH cases on the way.Chambering
bolt gun for it now..Ed

(.375 member)
06/12/07 04:30 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In the 87 long smooth barrel got
1 oz Brenneke to 2400 with 110gr
of 4227, You could use 4759 and
VV110 also at lesser amounts.
Barrel is cylinder bore size.
Brenneke slugs need no wads as the
locked on wad works good.Ed

(.375 member)
13/12/07 12:15 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In the long barrel 87 got 600 grain
Dixie over 2000, got a Buckhammer slug
I took out of factory load over 1900.
Buckhammer and locked on wad is 630
gr. Tested in 3" plastic cases.

The firing pin on the 87 didn't protude out
like I like them to as it comes from factory,
so I removed .015 from the hammer stop.
It fires big and small primers perfect.Ed

(.375 member)
21/12/07 05:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel.
28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. factory FED 765gr loads
are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus
and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600,
for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383.
We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug
of some design. The 765 gr Fed slug is hollowbase for
smooth bores. Roll crimped with crimper in drill press.
Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like
the factory loads. 3.5" plastic cases.Ed

(.375 member)
24/12/07 12:20 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

10GA FH info.Fed factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than
10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding
hollow base. With 7383 that gave another 150 fps.Fast starting
shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383.
The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4"
long. Better to replace with much more slower powder,
getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.Ed

(.375 member)
02/01/08 04:58 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some interesting things we find......
First two cases are ours we had made by putting rims on bmg
brass, The right ones a santa sent me and appear to be
drawn, high strength case that are same dimensions.
Are they worth rounding up, seeing as how the guy
who made our first bunch just closed and retired. .......Ed

(.375 member)
05/01/08 06:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In 10GA NEF 110gr 4227 got 765gr slug
to 1800, ejected ok. If it was a really
heavy barrel it could do more.Using the
7383 surplus at 150 gr, don't even have
to resize to fire 3 times. The 28GA FH
done and testing in next couple weeks.Ed

(.400 member)
05/01/08 09:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hey ED!

Can the lever actioned 1887 Winnie copy be barreled with a 12 gauge(.735cal)rifled barrel??

Love your experiments

happy new year

(.416 member)
05/01/08 09:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Damn, Ed!
You had me looking twice at a Sportco Model 53 12-bore bolt-gun on one of the gun-sites this morning!

(Eeeew! Off to wash my mouth out...!)

Still, if any Savage 210 actions turn up here at the right price I would certainly be interested.

(...y'hear that, Al?)

(.375 member)
07/01/08 02:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Rigby--Yes that bore of rifled barrel can be put on, as well
as a .729 rifled or any smooth barrel. I put on a smooth
just because it was first to get here, and I tested loads with
it. Hell action would handle 20ga, 16ga, even 10ga.

Marrakai--Yes if you find Savage thay are the ones. You
can put any NE case or shotgun case up to 10ga.Ed

(.375 member)
10/01/08 11:37 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Fired 28GA FH-- Cases extract easy.--It is
in bolt action Enfield. With 550gr jkt slug,
full load 150 gr of WC-860, got 1900 fps.
This will be slowest load and powder.
In picture is 3.25" brass 28ga cases, regular
28ga plastic case, jkt slugs, a 458Win
for comparison.Regular cases work also.Ed

(.275 member)
11/01/08 06:46 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

On the first page a Borchardt falling block for .50 BMG is mentioned - does anyone know if it is still in production? I can't find any info on it.

(.375 member)
13/01/08 10:50 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Borchardt's # I have 505-535-2923 ..

28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge,
Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist.
You could do one on Savage 210.Another
shotgun bolt action that would handle it
with little work, heavy barrel, is the
395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg.
Just show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is
picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed

(.400 member)
13/01/08 04:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hi Ed, Did you get my PM & email about shells and some slugs ??


(.600 member)
14/01/08 05:41 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Borchardt's # I have 505-535-2923 ..

28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge,
Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist.
You could do one on Savage 210.Another
shotgun bolt action that would handle it
with little work, heavy barrel, is the
395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg.
Just show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is
picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed

: Please advise the exact groove diameter of the 28 bore, please. For me, this thread is again attracting my attention. The 28 sounds worth making up for playing around here. A .54/170?/3-1/4 - cool! 170 was just a guess.
; First measurement on a Ruger #1 Action showed rims to around .60" only would be allowed without some grinding.

(.375 member)
14/01/08 10:28 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Sarg- I got email and sent a reply.The Proparms cases I
want to find is just to pass them on to others with
primer pocket bushing put in. Just going to charge for bushing.
That way others can do the 12GA FH long case.

Daryl-- 28ga groove diameter is .550", same as our 550 Magnum that
I tested in same gun. COTW also says 28ga normal bore .550",
there are co making 550 barrels ans bullets now.
28ga rim is .680". Should be no problem putting it in Ruger as they do
500NE in Rugers with .660' rim and some 577 with bigger rims.Ed

(.375 member)
19/01/08 02:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture and info on Royal
Arms' site for hopped up 12ga loads,
used in little cannons for bomb work.
Anyone got any of these fired that I could inspect to see how they are built.ED

(.600 member)
19/01/08 11:52 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


(.375 member)
28/01/08 03:34 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I like the Savage 210 so I'm putting
a 700 barrel on one and chambering for
my 700H 3.25 case. Working on it now.
Should get the same energy levels as
the 12GA From Hell case in same action.
In pic is 700H case in the action. Ed

(.416 member)
28/01/08 10:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


While I read all of your posts because the idea of powerful rifles fascinates me (though I am not happy with recoil and prefer to shoot my very pedestrian 8mm and 30-06 instead) I rarely post because I don't know as much about ballistics as most members do. I have only recently begun to work on handloading and have ordered equipment with the advice of members here, for example.

My question to you is, do you think that your 12 GAFH could be made into a double rifle? At the kinds of enormous power levels that you have worked out from it, if this were possible, you just might have the most powerful double rifle round around. Just speculating here - if this is a stupid question, my apologies are ready in advance.

Good hunting!

29/01/08 05:34 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


you keep talking about heavy barrels, could you be more specific if it is possible as to wall thickness both chamberwall and barrel wall, your tread is very inspiring and im getting a sxs home soon that is very overbuildt as a 12 gauge, and im thinking about following in your footpath.



(.375 member)
29/01/08 09:27 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yes you can build a heavy barreled double, with barrels
as heavy as used on the NEF Ultra Slug gun.
The diameter needed for our slower powder 12ga loads, is
1.20" at the breech and 1.050" at muzzle. I have a
Zabala 10ga double that if I get time and money I want to
build a heavy barreled 12 ga bore gun. Like a 700NE only
our cases is longer and .029" more bore. But getting one
done is really expensive.And even 12ga doubles that are
premium, I haven't seen any with heavy enough muzzles.Ed

29/01/08 11:02 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

thanks for the quick reply ed.

i got a toy gun from holts auction, in 12 gauge with an action that was so overbuildt that it looks like a 12 with 20 tubes. so i wanted to monoblock it anyways but then i saw your tread again and got a bit hot under the collar, i will do the mesaurments when it comes home and see about barrels etc it looks so fun i think dieter horneber could do a few cases as well, allthough i dont think i will do a full 3.87" a nice 3" would do nicely .
something like a paradox on steroids.

best regards


(.400 member)
29/01/08 08:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


I would be keen on some 3in brass shells if you are getting some made ,let me know on them !
Have a look at my 12 Bore rifle under "J&W Tolly 12 Bore Rifles Photos" post ,looks a bit like steroid uses

31/01/08 04:21 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

hi sarge

as soon as i get a price i will let you know, and yes i love your rifle. talk about 12 gauge on steriods wauw. i bet it will fun to shoot when you get the loads right

ed could you recommend a load with as low pressure as possible what im looking for is:

750 grn. fosbury style projectile.

3 " brass case.

around 2100-2200 fps

hopefully under the 3000 bar limit

im trying to see if my friend and his cnc lathe could do some steel tips that i could try to cast into the fosbury form, so i could get fosbury hollow points and steel inserts as solids for some fun hunting and tests.

(.375 member)
06/02/08 04:02 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You can get heavy base turned cases from MRC in any length.
For a 750 gr that fast you have too high pressure for double.
Using 3.5 inch plastic I got a 600gr to over 2000 in heavy barrel
NEF, and cases stick and won't extract when I went higher.
You can probably get to 1800 depending on extraction, with 750gr.
If you can find drawn cases without balloon heads that is best.
Personally after all research and getting cases around, if
I do a gun without going the full 3.85" length, I will do them
in 3.5" plastic, it is just so much easier and saves money,
and 3.5 inch plastic wil lkeep up with 3" brass. Ed

(.416 member)
06/02/08 07:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

600gr slug over 2000 fps in an NEF??

You guys....!

(.600 member)
07/02/08 06:43 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That's rather interesting, Marrakai. Perhaps the standard shotgun NEF can handle it, however they aren't the same action as the centrefire rifles, however- according to NEF.
; Whether there is a differnce in design or material or both, I don't know.

(.400 member)
07/02/08 11:11 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have shot full Nitro loads in my 500 NE 3 1/4 on rebarreled - NEF- ! Too much recoil ,like scary recoil ! I now use 535 gr @ 1850 fps NFB type load ,very easy to shoot .
I think rifle action is better steel & heat treated ? but same design !

(.375 member)
08/02/08 01:12 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The newer 10ga and 12ga Ultra NEFs are the SB2 strong action just like their
big bore rifles. The only difference is shotgun has a larger diameter
firing pin. The SB2 is an investment cast, properly heat treated,
action like a Ruger 77 bolt gun. And it is almost twice as strong as the
SB1 action they make, for their 12ga Pardner series, their 20 ga Ultra,
and various others.I have both 10 and 12ga on SB2 and so far they've
taken a beating and are still tight.And the 12 has a thumbhole stock
and weighted to 15 lbs and it even handles 600 gr at 2500, from
long brass case, that fits in the lengthened chamber.Ed

(.375 member)
12/02/08 03:21 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

28GA FH testing. 405 gr in 2.75" plastic case
got 1400. Tested the Great Plains 54cal
lubed slug, runs from 2200 to 2700. It is
by Hornady and its front band actually measures
.550" and hollowbase. They hit target straight.
Got a bunch of 415gr hollowbase coming that
are 548" from Dixie Gunworks. Only 26 cents each.
All will work in plastic or long brass
case. I found another .550 bbl and coming, and
it will go on a Mossberg bolt action
for the second 28GA FH to test.. Ed

(.375 member)
19/02/08 03:42 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested the 415 gr hollowbase slugs in 28GA FH long
brass case. These are ones that Dixie Gunworks sell
that they call their Sharps .548" slug. They all run
about .008 bigger than that so they make perfect tight
fit for .550" barrel, and I used a good lube on them
in the grooves. Same speeds as above for GPs.
They are a little harder alloy slug than
the Powerbelts or Great Plains The 28ga shellholder
for our Lee, Lyman, Rcbs presses , we use, is from
RCBS for regular metallic press rams. For 28ga dies
Hollywood made some for metallic presses.Also for
sizing for bottom 2/3 of the brass case you can cut
top off of the 500J die.The slower powder loads don't
even have to have the bottom half sized, which
is great for a turned case. If we had drawn brass cases
we could get 11,000 ft lbs, in the Enfield, which we
don't really need for deer. 4-6000 ft lbs ok/deer ..Ed

(.375 member)
12/03/08 11:49 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In the 87 Win Levergun, smooth barrel,
long barrel, using brass RMC 3" cases,
1 oz Brenneke KO slug to 2700 with 4227
powder. Shotgun primer. I will be getting
some 3.5" RMC brass that he will put a special
longer corner radius in, to allow faster loads
with less case expansion and easier resizing.
Should get same slug to 3000 and resize
easier also. With shotgun primer able to use
4227, and you WON"T have to rework hammer
or firing pin to do big primers.

Santa sent me 9 more PROP cases used in little
cannons for bomb disposal. Got 12 now.Ed

(.375 member)
20/03/08 03:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the Enfield bolt,
showing the 2 rear lugs I added.
The huge bolt handle base 3rd rear lug.
Bolt handle needs polishing.This one
will be in the action for the 8GA FH.
The Enfield I have 700H in is like
this also.Ed

(.375 member)
27/03/08 12:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the 4 slugs I've used in
the 28GA FH load developement in the
3.25" long brass case and they
also work in the plastic cases. Ed

(.375 member)
31/03/08 12:54 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

THE 8GA FH BELLERED TODAY. It is in Enfield I rigged with
rear locking bolt lugs. 32" barrel, tested 3.3" plastic cases.
Cases are the REM kiln gun cases. With the double cup base.
I shaved base a little so that chamber will fire these as well as
regular 8ga plastic. None of the firing today expanded base cups
at all, so they are real strong cases. Started testing to check
ignition with shotgun primers and to see if cases are any
good. Starting with a 110 gr mouse ball, wad under it, and 150 gr
of Blue Dot, about 5000 fps.. Gun didn't even recoil.Then a
410 gr one at 3000 fps, Then a 770 gr hollowbase slug in a wadcup
up to 2000 so far with 180gr of 7383. Barrel is smoothbore .832"
bore at the muzzle. Ed

(.375 member)
04/04/08 05:00 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some 8GA FH testing- using IMR 4759, 770 gr slug,
top load of 140 gr, got 2500 fps......
Over 10,000 ft lbs..Cases extract easy.
The plastic in 8ga case is twice as thick as
in 12ga cases. Tried 4227 and case is too large
diameter for dependable ignition.So it's
old dependable 4759..Ed

(.375 member)
08/04/08 01:55 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of Enfield 8GA FH. You can see plastic case
in the port. Box of cases behind, 770 gr and 1050 gr
slugs in front with the 8ga wadcups I use.
Left two slugs are 1050 gr made from 3 oz kiln slugs.
I rounded nose and put in hollow base. Also the
cards and fiber wads used. Slugs are hollowbase, as
it is smooth bore barrel. Ed

(.375 member)
14/04/08 06:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In picture of the 8ga bolt action you can see the
ring I put on front of bolt to support large diameter
8ga casehead. It is suported against thrust by the
front lugs, and total bolt thrust is supported by rear
lugs and have taken the heavy loads ok.. Ed

(.600 member)
15/04/08 01:11 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Acc.Arm's 5744 should work as well as 4759. maybe better, maybe not.
: You would know where to start better than I. Still haven't gotten around to testing my 4227 loads in the 12 bore. Shoulder won't take much right now.

16/04/08 02:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Acc.Arm's 5744 should work as well as 4759. maybe better

I agree.

(.375 member)
17/04/08 04:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

5744 is used a lot in large cases with partial filling of
cases with powder. But you can't fill the large cases to
90-100% as pressure climbs to much in big cases

Others tested 5744 and it is ok up so far. Shotgun cases are
in the realm of large cases. It works with wads,
to take up air space ok, but you can only get half the weight
of 4759 or 4227 loads before peak pressures are too high
above the limit that we want, which is about 15000 psi in
12ga.And still not get velocities that 4759 and 4227 get.Ed

(.600 member)
18/04/08 01:30 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I understand. So far 4759 seems to be the only powder that will make 2,500fps in the big "8". This is unfortunate, as that is only in the ballistic range you've accomplished in the 12 bore. I would have thought this ctg. would make 2,500fps with a 1,500gr. slug. A little much for deer, but a great comfort with a charging brown bear. The shot would knock you out of the way, and quite likely stop a charge even if not a lethal hit.

(.375 member)
26/04/08 03:15 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The gun is the limiting factor. If we had big bolt gun, front
lugs, we could get 770 gr to 3000+, 1050 gr to 2700+ in plastic.
A brass case could do more.But it's not bad for plastic.

I also have two other cartridges with my name
on them that I am promoting. They are my 700HE
and my 585BHE. They both belted straight cases.
Montana Rifle company is coming out with their
big PH action and some guys will be doing my
cases in them.
Info on the 585BHE. It will work in
any gun that handles 505 Gibbs like Enfield, CZ,
Ruger,etc.Mine is in Enfield.Here is picture of
of one next to Trex. And mine holds 15gr more
powder than that Trex case. 585BHE will do 750
grain from 1800 to 2800 fps in my Enfield.
Anyone interested setting up a gun, contact me
I will furnish reamer and 15 free cases. Cases are
headstamped. When done return reamer to me, for
the next guy. I will keep them sharpened. After a
few guys have guns we all will get together with
others wanting some and get a run of brass made.
These cases are all drawn high pressure brass.
I'd like guys to ask for reamer when gun is going
to be ready to chamber, that way reamers get the
most guns done in shortest time.Ed

(.600 member)
26/04/08 04:09 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - some time ago, Les Bauska used to make up overly-large Ruger-style #1 Actions chambered for the .600 Nitro. A note to his son might shed some light on this for action size, rim size allowance, etc, and if the outfit who cast the actions for Les is still in operation. A huge #1 Action would make a fine modern 8 bore me thinks - kinda like so many English guns, but hammerless, of course.
: I'd really like to take you up on your offer of the reamer and cases, but alas, my shoulder will no longer take such punishment. Woe is me. Some day, we have to meet.

(.375 member)
01/05/08 03:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

He isn't in business any more and none of
family is in it either.

On Fri May 2 8pm on the Science Channel ,they will have
an article about the heavy barrel cannons that shoot
the brass cases for bomb disposal.They are the same as
our 12GA FH case,when resized in my dies and are shown
in this thread a couple months back in picture.
It will show them using them for bomb disposal. Ed

(.375 member)
07/05/08 01:13 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Testing 8GA FH in Enfield, 1050 gr slug in wad cup, 120 gr
of 4759, over 2000 fps. Cases extract easy. Hardly any
base cup expansion...Ed

(.450 member)
07/05/08 03:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

So when are you going to build a double !2 from hell?

Now that will be another beast and a half.

(.300 member)
09/05/08 03:07 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


So when are you going to build a double !2 from hell?

Now that will be another beast and a half.

Very interesting idea, but the weight would likely be unreal based on the heavy barrel diameter(thinking diameter of heavy barrel NEF), plus an action large enough for the barrel size AND strong enough for the pressure. Unless someone knows of an existing double that fills the bill a double, as interesting as it would be, would probably be a "from scratch" gun.

(.375 member)
10/05/08 11:59 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have found a Zabala double that would work, but changing barrels
without the money, time, and good machinery, can't be done by me,
as I have 15 easier time consuming deals a going. Ed

(.375 member)
12/05/08 03:23 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a sectioned 8ga plastic case
showing how heavy and strong it is built. The
plastic is one piece compressioned formed and
the sides of the cases are twice as thick as
12ga cases.You can see the double thickness
of the base cup. Ed

(.375 member)
22/05/08 10:50 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the bolt setup for the 8ga
Enfield we did.Also comparison to a Mauser
12ga shotgun bolt conversion, from which
I got the concept. Ed

(.375 member)
31/05/08 02:46 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I was asked how I got 8ga heavy barrel so quick.
First it is smoothbore, second a 110 bucks total shipping and all.
First I bought a 1.5 inch dia 4130 alloy, heat treated, shaft,
32" long. Then I had a deep hole drilling company drill
a .832" hole in it. Came out centered on both ends.
Then after it got here I used cylinder hone to polish
the inside of the bore. Threaded it, chambered it, and put
in the Enfield bolt action. The heat treating it had was just like
the barrel stock that barrel guys get. Ed.

(.375 member)
12/06/08 02:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

For those wanting to see video of the 12GA FH in
the Savage busting big pail of water, one of the
kids posted it on Youtube- Titled "Grampa's Cannon".
I just found out that it is on there.
This was the video that the still pictures posted
before, was taken from. They have the sound
muted so as not to hurt camera sound system. Ed

(.375 member)
17/06/08 05:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Load of 12 triple ought buckshot in 8ga. They are
70gr each, total 840 gr, and over 2000 fps with
125 gr of 4759. Ed
Here is URL for the waterpail busting video above--

(.375 member)
25/06/08 12:24 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

There are now two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled pails of water.
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil.
Also the 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
above goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed

25/06/08 01:36 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

ed you have entirely too much fun, and now the grandkids get the bug as well. good shooting


(.375 member)
30/06/08 01:58 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I've got extra 28ga alloy rifled barrel now.
So along with first one in Enfield I will be doing one
in Mossberg 695 bolt action. Will add a little weight
to the stock and one of kids will see how it does on
deer this fall.Ed

Oh here is URL of the Grandpa's First Shot Video--

(.375 member)
04/07/08 12:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pic of Mossberg 695 that will be the
second 28GA From Hell.You can see long
brass case in the port. Ed

(.375 member)
13/07/08 01:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Somebody suggested this picture to show the
difference between shotgun powder, factory loads
and our loads in plastic and brass as it relates to
increased powder capacity. Factory 3rd case with
small amount of powder(more wads), 2nd case plastic with
larger amount(less wads), 1st, brass case all powder.
This allows us more volume of slower powder.
Also the Videos, 'Grandpa's Cannon', 'Grandpa's First
Shot', are heading up to 3000 views on Youtube.
Any of you who could pass info about the videos out
over the net, I'd appreciate it. Ed

(.375 member)
07/08/08 02:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is closeup pic of Rob's 12GA FH, a Borchardt falling block
action. Real nice. In picture is along brass 12ga case with one
of Rob's 2000gr bore rider, solid, streamlined slugs. Ed

(.375 member)
14/08/08 10:27 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Got my long 700 HE case chambered barrel
finally in a bmg size action. It is barrel
I locked onto an I-beam and got testing and
load developement done over the last couple
years. Max load about 23,000 ft lbs.
It weighs 27 lbs, laminated thumbhole stock,
a max size pad, weighted butt, a reinforced
wrist, recoil barrel ring on front of stock.Ed

(.600 member)
14/08/08 11:19 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Gotta hand it to you, you're very serious about this stuff.

I used to like to get kicked around by big guns, but since coming down with torn cartelage in my right shoulder, front and back, I've lost some of the "belt me if you can" attitude. Dr's who know shooting, think it's the kicking from certain postions that has exacerbated damage caused by pulling my own shoulder back into joint a number of times. Got to the point all I had to do was to reach back over my shoudler and it would pop out - not good. Which came first, chicken or the egg? I say all of this only as a warning to those too tough to wear protection when shooting kickers.

Right now, my little guns are all I can shoot, up to the little medium, the 9.3x57 - and that wearing a magnum recoil protector and only for 10 shots. Really crimping my shooting, but pain is a limiter for sure.

(.375 member)
16/08/08 02:29 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I don't shoot a large number of rounds from the
shoulder. And all my chrono and first testing is with
guns lock to a 300 lb weight on a heavy standup bench.
The thumbhole stock is a great recoil tamer. Ed

(.375 member)
24/08/08 01:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a neat scaled up Sharps replica
that would handle out 12GA FH and my 700HE.
That outside hammer looks great. From a magazine
article in Very High Power...Ed

(.375 member)
29/08/08 01:47 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a pic of a projectile idea Rob had. We will test it later
this fall, It is 12ga bore rider design Body is Aluminum, and it
will have a heavy 50 cal insert in the nose made from tungsten
or similiar metals. In the picture he put a 50 cal bullet in for
show. The insert in the nose will be flush with front of the
AL carrier. It should be stable at slow twists and if built
with back and front same diameter stable in smoothbores.
The long lighter tail-end compared to heavy nose insert
will make it stable. Same principle Brenekke uses. This idea
is being explored to try to get superior penetration
from 12ga, with heavy, hard insert in the nose.Ed

(.375 member)
04/09/08 02:11 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is another view of my 700HE blaster,
that I got rigged up on an action and stock.
Side view shows action with a aperture sight I
rigged up. Also cases. On left is 700H 3.25" case.
Center my 700HE, what the gun in picture has now.
Good for nearly 23,000 ft lbs, we attained in
a work up in testing with the barrel as a test
barrel with screw on testing receiver....Ed

(.375 member)
04/09/08 06:31 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I do take it you mean 2,300 fps Ed not 23,000

(.400 member)
04/09/08 07:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I think he means it ! from reading Eds posts it,s 23000 FPE , Eds guns have LOTS of energy !!

(.375 member)
05/09/08 01:47 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I stand chastened and corrected. I wrongly assumed that it was a typo for 2300 fps

Dear god in heaven, that is a shoulder fired artillery piece.

(.375 member)
05/09/08 02:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That is from a 1000gr bullet over 3200 FPS. That is a
show off load. Hunting load about 2300-2600.
Any of you over there interested in my shorter 3.25" 700H case, which
will work in MRC PH action coming out(I have it in a reworked
Enfield and a Savage 210), contact Karl. He is working
to get a few cases imported from me over there, and I also have
a chamber reamer that you all can use. The short case is perfect
for actions sized between Ruger/CZ and BMG actions.ED

(.375 member)
12/09/08 12:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a dart type 12ga slug Rob made. Body
is aluminum, it has a heavy tungsten carbide insert in the
nose. The TC in the nose is about 5 times denser than AL.
Total length is 2.35 inches, weight about 950 gr. The .75" long
insert a real tight type fit. Heat AL, put in insert, cools, locks on.
It is fairly streamlined, yet has wide meplat for penetration
in game. Flat points penetrate straighter in game.
It is hollow inside in the back, behind insert which puts the
center of gravity way up front, it should fly straight even from
a smoothbore. They are fast to make and material
less expense than copper.In pic is a copper and a brass 600
cal slugs for comparison. Dart/slug on right has insert.Ed

(.416 member)
12/09/08 12:20 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Do you think the rear of the dart projectile will blow out the way a minnie ball does?
Could the hollow enable you to load more powder in a shorter case since powder could also be housed in the base of the bullet itself? May be a challenge to load though...

(.600 member)
13/09/08 02:17 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Cool bullets, Ed. Are the .600's for a tight 20 bore or for sabots in the 12?

(.375 member)
14/09/08 05:45 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Huvius- The back is solid. Rob drilled hole in the front to within
1/4" of base. Hole was 7/16" then he drilled 1/2} hole in
3/4" and put in insert, against step. Idea of aluminum and hollow
inside is to get front heavy projectile stable at slow twists or
in smooth barrels.

Daryl- Those are brass bullets for .620 cal rifles, 600NE,
and Rob'd 600OK. They work in a 20ga with .620 rifled barrel. Ed

(.600 member)
14/09/08 10:49 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

TKS for the response. Those 20's look awsome. The longer, aluminum jacketed ones in 12 bore - incredible.

(.375 member)
15/09/08 03:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here are more samples of nice 12ga slugs.....Here is pic of
ones RG Henson sent. Jacketed 12ga. 715gr hollowpoints,
on the right and in front a jkt 675gr hollowbase.
RG's number 1-770-366-4846. These will be great for
shorter plastic and brass cases as well as long cases.
Other slugs in pic, in the back, left to right
Foster 436gr- Dixie 600gr- 750gr brass- my 750gr hollowbase
brass, and a hollowpoint I put a lightweight filler in the nose
for streamlining..Ed

(.375 member)
17/09/08 01:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Two other 12ga slugs RG may do later on are full
jacketed ones. If interested in the hp one above
contact him at number above. He has to do a bunch
of them to get ahead to do others.And they will be
a fantastic deer, hog, bear slug. He is in Georgia.
Also, any of you who might want some of the 12GA FH
brass cases made from BMG brass, we have the fellow who
had the idea about the 12GA FH first, Rob on AR forum,
is planning on making them. He has got the machines to do
it now, that we didn't have before. Let me know how many
you are interested in getting, so he can plan and figure
the best price. He has a bunch of BMG cases to start with,
he and I have places to get more.I'm posting this all over.Ed

(.375 member)
28/09/08 02:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Testing 715gr jacketed hollowpoint from RG Henson in Savage 210.
With 30 inch barrel, long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Slightly hairy load 290gr RL22--2700 fps. Shot moderate load
of 300gr W-860 -- 2400 fps for 3 shot group of 3" at 50
yards with my bad eyes and peep sights. They shoot nice, they go
into target straight.. Other nice thing the price from RG,
for customers getting in on his first run, $1.25 plus shipping.
That is less than half of what other big bore jkt bullets cost.
Call him for some great slugs. They are great like
the Dixie slugs. Ed

(.375 member)
02/10/08 01:13 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Lookee what another santa sent me.
A regular BMG case on the left, and
a straight BMG case on the right, and it

It is primer cartridge for large guns and howitzers.
It is used in those guns/cannons that have powder in big bags.
It is filled with powder and inserted into cannon breach and
when fired sets off the larger charge. On some cannon breaches
they have an automatic feed for these with a huge 40 round
drum magazine. This on is marked IVI 89 C67. IVI is Canadian.
On these breaches it is held by collet fingers for head space
and for ejection.

Ok, there are many thousands more of these out there than the
PROP cases I showed before. We need to find few barrels of these
and have Rob, etal, put on rims.... no fireforming,
just slight resize to 12GA FH. Please help if you know of any.
They would save so much work and time..And even though fired
the bases are perfectly straight, another plus.....Ed

(.375 member)
06/10/08 02:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a picture of RG's jacketed 715gr slugs in various
loads.First are 2.75" and 3" factory foster slugs\ for
comparison. 3rd is jkt HP in 3.5" plastic case, 4th in a
3" brass RMC case. 5th in a 3.5" brass case with small
primer, 6th in our long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Top hairy load in long case in Savage, 2900..Ed

(.600 member)
07/10/08 12:47 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed- cool pics. What's the best load for a stock 210 Savage, factory barrel with a plastic case? I'd suggest with a solid slug at 600gr. or round ball about 545gr?

(.375 member)
13/10/08 02:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Stock 210 load- 600gr Dixie hard lead, 3" case,
use 75Gr of 4227gr for about 1500 fps.Now if heavier
barrel you can do more or if chamberlenthened do more.
Please notice in the picture above, cases loaded with
the 715 gr jacketed slugs, the 3rd and 4th ones.
They both have same 90gr of 4227, same number of
wads, shoot at 1700 in 24" NEF barrel. 3rd plastic is
3.5" case, the 4th brass is a 3" RMC. Both have shotgun
primers.The 5th longer case is a 3.5" strong
brass one I made from a PROP case, and when I put
in primer bushing, I set it up for shotgun primer. I
will test it with 4227 powder, 600gr and 715 gr slugs.
Also in a couple months Rob, who's idea the 12GA FH
was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH
cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be
headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed

(.375 member)
15/10/08 01:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

RIP on AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin slugs.
A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard.
It is heavier rifled 24" chromoly alloy barrel.

Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder.

(.600 member)
16/10/08 03:18 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thanks for that info, Ed. I'll start with 60gr. in the 2 3/4" plastic case, w/round ball as I remember you suggested much earlier.

(.600 member)
17/10/08 01:08 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Quote from Ed - "Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder."
: In case some readers put faith in foot pounds per square inch, that 1 ounce bullet travelling at 2,300fps developes 5,140 fpe. That should handle deer within the shotgun's smoothbore accuracy range, shouldn't it?

(.375 member)
18/10/08 09:06 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yup! even the big ones.

(.375 member)
18/10/08 03:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Still testing 8ga I have setup in the Enfield.
It has a long smooth barrel. Those 8ga
heavy plastic cases are great. Fire them 4 times with
no resizing. Here is pic of slugs used in 8ga..
One and two are 1015gr hollowbase. Three and 4 are
875gr hollowbase. On four the cushion base is cut off
so I can use card wad and have more room for

(.400 member)
18/10/08 06:39 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

More room fore powder One would think a 8 gauge 3,5" case would hold all the powder that one could ever want. When you are done testing i will build one 8 gauge, a double jones with hammers offcourse.

(.375 member)
21/10/08 08:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We got our RMC 3.5" brass 12ga cases. These are turned
cases using shotgun primer. They have nice thick base,
and a good radius in the corner. Got a Brenekke OK 437 gr
slug to 2800 fps, a 540gr Hammerhead slug to 2450. got 600gr
Dixie to 2300, the 715gr RG jacketed to 2130, and a 1400gr
Darwin to 1400 plus. Tested in NEF. Shot one case 15 times
and still going strong, tight primer, with loads running about
20- 24,000 psi.I have pics of cases soon, and we also will
test these brass ones and 3.5" plastic in 12ga Encore

(.375 member)
26/10/08 04:20 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of RMC 3.5" cases with variety of slugs,
locked on wad slugs and sabots. There are 3 of our long cases
in back for comparison. The RMC turned cases have shotgun
primer. Case # 4 has 437gr slug in BPI SABOT( finally hard sabots
in 12ga for reloading), #5 437gr Brenekke KO slug, #6 540gr
Hammerhead slug, #7 600gr Dixie hard slug, #8 RG's 715gr
jacketed, #9 750gr solid brass. Ed

(.375 member)
02/11/08 11:37 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get
for reloading, the BPI. From Ballistic products. In picture
is sabot with a 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug I put
in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work.
Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks
each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also
as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed

(.600 member)
02/11/08 01:15 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I'm surprised the .50's fit properly. The walls of the 'sabot' are very thick. I think I'd rather have a 12 bore slug fired from a 12 bore. Why cut power and turn it into a .50 Sharps shooting light bullets?

(.375 member)
03/11/08 04:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A lot of shotgun only hunters want fast light bullets, with less recoil.
And a little longer range. Still will have good ME.Sabot speeds below.
I like 600gr Dixie and but test everything so guys know about them.
Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5"
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed

(.375 member)
03/11/08 08:14 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I kinda like my Remington SP-10, especially with 3 1/2" slug loads Truly a big bore with lots of firepower. I have two and one is still new in the box. Any takers?

(.600 member)
04/11/08 04:31 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I think I very much prefer the NEF. TC has alwasy had difficulty with screw and ovetail depths - getting them too deep is a common TC problem- modern or muzzleloading guns allthe way back to 1970. Seems things haven't changed much with them. The warrantees are great - goos thing cause almost all their guns need warrantee work. I guess I seem to not like TC very much. Sorry - just my opinion, of course.

(.375 member)
08/11/08 02:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

All the youngsters her just love the Encore 12ga.
I just filled up dovetail cuts and put nut for
forearm screws on the top of the filled area.Relieved
a little plastic in forearm, screwed it on, works good....
See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed

(.400 member)
08/11/08 08:44 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hi Ed , Thank you for all your cool posts ! how does the Browning A Bolt stack up againts the Savage 210 , for strenght & use ?

(.375 member)
11/11/08 04:40 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

THe A-Bolt is almost as strong, handle all of our long
case loads. Wish they weren't so pricy. They look nice
and have nice style, like a big bore African gun.
Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right
next to our long original case to show how well it is built
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed

(.600 member)
12/11/08 03:23 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I can't see the .5 brass cases failing, unless they are allowed to get too brittle at the case mouth.

(.375 member)
16/11/08 04:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.In pic on left you see the Lymans with hollowbase up
and the shape of it when starting out.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed

(.600 member)
17/11/08 03:41 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - I was sent some 525gr. Lyman's along with some wads and 9.3" bullets for testing, from a friend in Alberta. As yet, I've not tried the Lyman slugs, but have some loaded for testing in 2 3/4" hulls. They are cast of WW metal and weigh 506gr. Av. They do fit perfectly inside a Red WW field wad. From the looks of them, I think I may also have to buy that mould for my own use. They might 'convert' me from round balls for my camp 'bear' gun - might! The round balls in WW metal are almost unstopable and somewhat heaveir than the Lyman slug. Alan M. says the Lyman is very accurate in his side by side 12 as in 3" to 4" at 50 yards. It certainly looks promising and is very easily loaded.

(.375 member)
19/11/08 04:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That's nice thing about them, easy to load and in the cup they
don't lead the barrel. Slug and wad don't look like much
but lot of guys say they are accurate.
Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases. Ed

(.600 member)
20/11/08 06:52 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed- can you post a picture of the bolt? Does it have locking lugs on it - 1 or 2?. I'm assuming the bolt cuttout in the action itself is one locking lug. Is it the only lug?

(.375 member)
25/11/08 04:36 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The Savage has three front locking lugs and if action was
built thicker you could go BMG pressures.Pics of bolt
are earlier in the thread.
Here is information and reason for keeping and milling
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the
back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so
the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my
2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case.
Just to see how it will work and along with other guys
doing it, get the info out to people.
This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8".
You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the
front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed

(.600 member)
26/11/08 05:14 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

3!!! - wow - some skookum action for a pelter. Cool. guess I'll have to pick one up sometime (Christmas present to myself?) for a dedicated RB or Lyman slug gun.

(.375 member)
04/12/08 02:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed

(.375 member)
09/12/08 07:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed

(.375 member)
10/12/08 04:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed

(.375 member)
13/12/08 04:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed

(.375 member)
18/12/08 03:37 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed

(.375 member)
21/12/08 03:35 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE.
It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system
can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could
put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729"
and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a
.750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the
top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting
to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh,
1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC,
1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed

(.375 member)
23/12/08 04:55 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out,
the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier
loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened
for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed

(.400 member)
23/12/08 09:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I must say that i envy your comittment to the project, there must be some hours behind it.
Ceep it up

Didnt you mention a 8 bore a while ago?

(.375 member)
25/12/08 03:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yes we have experimented building a 8 bore on a
bolt action Enfield and now are setting up one on a NEF
heavy barreled 10 ga, by boring it out.Ed

(.375 member)
28/12/08 02:24 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter.
With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run one
into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy.
Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE
great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug
was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball
powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500.

Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase
jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887
Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO
435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got
a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has
34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long
cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore
going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other
stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that
is operated by the lever at bottom of opening
stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to
handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey,
neat looking, single shot blaster.Ed

(.375 member)
01/01/09 07:29 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with
a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better.
It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously.
I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real
heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an
8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up
on the end as shown in picture above works great.
I stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil
Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock.
Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug,
135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed

(.375 member)
05/01/09 06:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to
fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect
in the 28GA FH brass case. It is a hollowbases hourglass
shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded
right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast
your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for
sale. I use slow rifle powders in case so no air space,
they fill to the slugs. I got 2900 with moderate case
expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth
28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action.

Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the
firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields
With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed
ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength.
One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will
ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would
show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209
CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them
in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent
when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in
Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when
firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out
the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength
visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED
209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put
the REM in same case/gun where that we had delayed ignition
and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have
the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal,
and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly
softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent.
I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped
up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got
everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also)
we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins
and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot,
Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc.
Hope this helps.....ED

(.600 member)
06/01/09 05:05 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Although I put little if any faith in paper energies, 6,761.77fpe from a Mossy bolt action shotgun! - now that's impressive.

(.375 member)
12/01/09 01:37 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun.
It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows
in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil
barrel ring I added so forearm stays put.
It has internal brake on barrel that I picture
earlier in thread with the porting holes.
Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right
that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups,
and many folks have good accuracy with them, even
in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy
design. These are the ones you cast your own.
And there are guys casting some for sale.
You see two in wadcups on the right.
On the left is my prototype of the Lyman
style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a
mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup
used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our
smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this
as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow
base and heavy in the front, wasn't designed
to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed

(.600 member)
12/01/09 09:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Good looking slug, Ed. I wonder how many 5 gallon pails of water it will penetrate. That's pretty light for an 8, isn't it? should be able to get it really trucking. I would think you might want to try WW hardened. 460F or thereabouts for 1 hour then quenched in a bucket of tap water - something soft on the bottom, let sit for 12 hours or more & they should come up to brinel 30 approx. I Suspect you've done this before.

(.375 member)
13/01/09 01:21 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have shot the lighter 20 gauge slugs,(350 grains) through three, one gallon water filled milk jugs and into the fourth one, which split and released the slug, which rolled off the table and onto the ground. It had expanded to the diameter of a U.S quarter and is the only one of these slugs I ever managed to retreave intact. Bob H.

(.600 member)
13/01/09 10:39 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thanks for chiming in here, Birdhunter - Were they pure lead or cast from WW metal? The expanded bullet pictured looks to be harder than pure, but softer than 12 or 13 brinel, which is what I get with our WW's. At that diameter, I'd expect more cracks - and not as large an expansion.

(.375 member)
22/01/09 04:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The slugs I got are 30 to 1 lead/tin mix and seem harder than
WW slugs. As for the 8ga I may make nose little heavier,
but those proportions are like the 12ga one, which most folks
says shoot easy and fast and accurate. So I want same for 8ga,
without going over pressure in the barrel we are redoing.

RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with
shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And
I just tested some variety of ones myself.
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with
slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer,
with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above
thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.

1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs,
with 1/8" cards and 1/4" felt wad.

715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.
This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder.

Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase
powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example,
with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25
as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case.
A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter
powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.

On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if
enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with
a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling
folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot
and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity
out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed

(.375 member)
26/01/09 06:58 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr
Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use
originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting.
It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores.
Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It
will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns
that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber
for the brass case. Good hunting loads would
be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added
and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask
about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed

(.375 member)
31/01/09 06:13 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.

Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A
515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my
10ga, using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup
shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it
is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield
and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman
so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga
no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it
so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed

PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go
to the forums, join in and support them.
The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from
him and he is in court to get it back. He is in
the right and if you folks show up there it will help.
And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from
the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.

(.375 member)
04/02/09 04:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put
together to show how heavy of powder seal
and heavy cushion base that is needed. That
eliminates the blowouts and damage that was
happening to sabots unless I put a card
under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion
base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one
and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit
target straight. Ed

(.600 member)
05/02/09 01:36 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Good pictures as usual, Ed.

I am at a loss to understand why anyone would restrict & reduce the power of a gun by shootng an undersized projectile. Now, shooting sabots from a 120mm cannon, I see that and it certainly has merit. To reduce a wonderful .73 cal. rifle to a .50 or .54, well, I just don't understand the logic - unless it's just an execise in testing 'something' - that I understand.

(.275 member)
05/02/09 08:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Among others, one of the reasons to use a sabot is to reduce friction (pressure) between slug and barrel, especially when using other than soft lead slugs. Another reason is to "adjust" free space between slug and barrel, since bore diameter of shotgun barrels vary quite a lot, especially smoothbore ones.
In the brass slugs we make, sabot is mandatory and less friction results in higher velocity, as well.

(.600 member)
05/02/09 11:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Oh, I understand with solid projectiles, reducing the diameter slightly to allow some sort of barrier - I just don't see using grossly undersized bullets in a large bore and thus reducing power.

The Lyman sabot moulded slug is a good idea - the 'slug' is only reduced to about .68 cal. from .73, but to grossly reduce the diameter to the .50's is to lose a great deal of killing and stopping power.

(.375 member)
08/02/09 02:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with
a flatter trajectory that speed and
a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in
12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal
slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job.

Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers
I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga
size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases
turned smaller, where the extra short basecup
is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the
diameter that it chambers ok and regular case
doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber.
This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found
it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other
case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and
ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup,
but they have the step formed in them to match
the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them
down any to fit my chamber, BUT you can swage
them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the
basecup. Examining them they do expand much more
than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times
with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did
expanded .005" in one shot. I will use
heavier built REMs as they are 70cents
primed and good for 4-5 shots,
no resizing, with hairy 8,000 ft lb loads.Ed

(.600 member)
09/02/09 03:18 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

"QUOTE" Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with
a flatter trajectory that speed and
a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in
12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal
slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job. "QUOTE"

Yes - I am aware of what they are doing - I just don't understand - well, never mind -
A 400 to 500 gr. .50 cal slug should have a 24" twist or perhaps a bit faster, but not needed. Apparently, PacNor makes a 22" twist 12 bore barrel. I wanted an 80-85" twist with 5-6 thou rifling, but am having difficulty finding one.

(.375 member)
12/02/09 06:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

My pacnor barrels are 1 to 20-24, but up to about 440gr for me
in sabot they seem to stabilize in NEF with 1 to 35".
Speed is the difference as RPMs are faster so they
are still stable. I'm sure they'd wobble if I shot them
at only 1200 or so. As far as the real slow twist barrels
look up the guys specializing in black powder guns,
and also check with Dixie Gunworks.

I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range
is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512"
slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes.
Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH
Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from
the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy
when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again.
Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage
in our long case at 2900 though two-- 1/4" steel plates with
2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed

(.600 member)
13/02/09 04:12 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

600gr. cast bullet through two steel 1/4" plates with 2" of wood between - impressive indeed!

(.375 member)
16/02/09 03:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Those slugs are as hard as full jacket bullets and at
real high speed, and plates were mild steel.
Before it got cold again got little more testing done.
I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of
the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated
lead REM kiln gun slugs, and it went through 6 foot
of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square,
behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore.
It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard.
I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87
smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they
all made hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with
Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my
87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle, .726" at breech,
so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug,
for fairly accurate load.....Ed

(.375 member)
22/02/09 05:18 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of one of RIP's NEFs 12GA FH, with
a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a
50cal one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed

(.375 member)
22/02/09 07:12 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hello Ed

Thanks for the link by the way will get back to you asap.

How is the 12ga fh double idea coming along???

Kind regards


(.375 member)
28/02/09 04:15 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Rob and RIP on AR forums are doing doubles.
I haven't the resources to do one.

The Vias brake bored out in above picture will help
RIP with recoil as he wants to shoot all heavy slugs
in the NEF Ultra. Guys like the Vias brakes.They
can be bored out and fitted to anything.
I just like ported internal brakes and more gun weight.

Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and
10ga light slug loads of my testing. I call them my real
big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in
Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds.
A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group
at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in
10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so
it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores.

Smaller varmint load. NEF rifled 12ga with RG's 385gr
aluminum cored jacketed HP slug at 2700, 2 overlapping
and one half inch away using RMC 3.5" case. Ed

(.600 member)
28/02/09 04:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Good shooting - the real test is 50 to 60 yards. With well balanced loads, smoothbore will stack them at 25 yards, just as will smoothbored long-guns, like the fusils and single barreled fowlers both with round balls and black powder. Something happens past 25 yards, but tends are good.

Most well bored guns, modern, that is, will hold onto 3 1/2" to 5" at 50 and that's good accuracy. I've heard of more 12's printing closer to 3 1/2" than not. I think that's one heck of a good bullet - cast hard and possibly quenched out of the mould (careful) or hardened with the hot oven and water quench method.

(.375 member)
02/03/09 05:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The three slug loads tested above are real
light recoiling, easy to shoot. I call
them my big bore, varmint slugs as they are
light for the bore size. Here is picture of
the 3 slugs for comparison. 1st is 770gr in 8ga wadcup,
second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the
12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. The 8ga wadcup
loses its petals going out the barrel, but
hollowbase 770gr slug stays straight.The 515gr Lyman
in the 10ga thickwall wadcup is also as a unit
nose heavy and runs straight. The Lyman is held in
cup with little plastic mender glue, so that it
acts like a Hammerhead and Lightfield slugs.Ed

(.600 member)
03/03/09 04:14 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - the 10 bore load looks like a steel shot wad =- perhaps needed to get the thickness to fit the slug. Have you tried them in a regular shot wad? Paper patching (masking tape) might bring up the diameter to fit the cup well.

I used masking tape for patching in my brothers' .45 3 1/4" Sharps with very much undersized bullet and it shot well indeed.

(.375 member)
04/03/09 04:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Daryl- yes it is a 10ga steel shot wad with the Lyman
slug in it. A 12ga thin wadcup with same slug fits 12ga
which is what most guys use that Lyman for. The 10ga
thick steel cups are only a dime so it is easier than
trying to increase diameter of thin cups.In this way
we can use same slug for 12 and 10 ga.
Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug
at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with
2" wood between them. Fired from our long case
in the Savage.Two plates are soft mild steel.
In hole nice and round. Out, in back plate jagged.
Anyone interested in the 12ga Encore
with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in,
it is on Gunbroker..Ed

(.375 member)
07/03/09 03:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF
that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered
it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of
29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 24
porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock,
it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed

(.600 member)
08/03/09 08:26 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - your last post brings up another question related to another fellow's experimentation on this site - or maybe it was gunboards.
About the 10 bore opened to 8 bore - - have you thought of boring all but about 3" of the 10 bore out to 8, then rifling the 'choke' left behind? 8 bore paradox!!!

(.375 member)
12/03/09 03:53 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Daryl- That should work with right reamers and tools to do it.
Rifling buttons or a cutter that big, I can't find reasonable.
I was thinking of screwing a rifled choke in the stepped up area
on the end that I now use as internal brake expansion area, with
the ports..But I like the ports and the hollowbase slugs should be
75yd accurate based on preliminary tests with them. And the Lyman style
slug that I will get mold done for, will be better yet.

Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole
stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked.
Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil
great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage
112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and
heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo

(.375 member)
17/03/09 04:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs.
Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns.
One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber.
He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed

(.600 member)
18/03/09 03:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I'm 'coming' into a Mossy with extra rifled tube.
Do you know if the Lyman slugs shoot from the 35" or 36" twist?

(.375 member)
18/03/09 01:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Fellas say they do ok.Most brag about accuracy.
I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed

(.224 member)
20/03/09 11:30 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yowee, Ed, I think you are my new hero!! This an amazing thread to read.

(.375 member)
20/03/09 01:58 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383
available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular
shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of
us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside
the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of
all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake.
This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can
control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days
is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is
more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition
even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company
got most deterent inside it still regulates speed.
Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in
plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17,
with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from
437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean
and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300
with 160 gr of RE-17. Using plastic you must have a strong
roll crimp with slug and wads tight.....Whoopee....Ed

(.600 member)
21/03/09 02:44 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hmmm - reloader #17, eh - probably see that here in a few years. Guess I'm stuck with H4227 and shotgun powders.

What are you guys paying for those M110 Savages? Here, they're listed around $495.00 - bit much for an action - but not much else in a repeater around that will handle those long cases.

(.375 member)
22/03/09 09:47 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Isn't the alliant powders sold there.
You should be able to order it, as around
here Hodgdon is the trucking distributor.
210 Savages are up to 550 bucks in places.Ed

(.375 member)
26/03/09 02:24 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17
and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great.
Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition.
I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long
heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation,
it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember
I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far
RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM
wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the
wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp,
and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case
expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother
those one piece compression molded super strong
8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper
roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight
taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove
in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs
have to be shoved in with press.

And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder
gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning
rate to speed up more than what it was designed for.
I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's
pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression.
I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like
RE-17.Just pour case full and shoot with lighter slugs.

Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get
the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made,
email him to deal to get some-
He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed.

(.375 member)
30/03/09 06:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum,
of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock
and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round
ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed

(.375 member)
02/04/09 03:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes.
They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other.
They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones
are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any
contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing
them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass
ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with
140 gr the new RL-17. Ed

(.375 member)
06/04/09 02:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Heavy brass slug testing-----
RIP'S components in first picture-
15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator,
230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug,
and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5"
brass case, fired in his great looking,
braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him
1812 fps average. Barrel and brake
are 27" total length. Great work. Ed

(.600 member)
07/04/09 01:21 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

THAT load makes for a 12 Bore From Hell for sure. RIPP - hope if doesn't put you "under". Bet it's fun to watch someone shoot it. Bit much for this old guy. Still havne't beenout to try the new 835 Mossy with Lyman slugs. One of these days.

(.375 member)
13/04/09 04:02 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed

(.375 member)
17/04/09 01:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double
10 gauge frame. It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off
barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a
pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out
monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are
1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length.
Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread.
In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs
and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy.
It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed

(.600 member)
18/04/09 01:56 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I suspect that 500gr. is being punched out of a 22" or faster twist?

That is power - 2,550fps with 500gr.! OWWW and WOW - and from a rifled shotgun! If of standard 35" ro 36" twist, I'd be staying with something lighter than 360gr. and probably attempt to get an accurate load with the 300gr. Nosler - that should work about the best wouldn't it?

Looks like I'm going to have to come up with a box of 3.5" plastic and break them down to do some testing. My torn shoulder is hurting already.

(.375 member)
20/04/09 03:28 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

His savage is 1 to 22 twist I think, but BPI tested
500gr in sabot in guns with 1 to 35 and 1 to 28 twist, and got
good accuracy with no signs of tumbling.Of course it
is the bullet rpms, so faster bullet needs less twist.
The point of Bret's and my testing is to find best seals.And
this seal and wad combo we found is much better, than
cards and wads or other plastic seals. And they cost
no more than others, and the sabots are reasonable too. Ed

(.375 member)
20/04/09 06:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed

(.375 member)
26/04/09 02:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed

(.400 member)
26/04/09 05:53 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Well that one doesent have a lot of chamber thickness.

(.600 member)
26/04/09 11:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Reminisent of some of the old 12 bore singles - way back when.
Yeah- it certainly looks thin for higher pressures, but probably anything to 20,000 would be OK - just an offhanded guess on pressure

(.375 member)
30/04/09 12:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

It is heavy enough. It is .145" thickness at chamber.
I've fired factory kiln loads with 1000gr slugs fine.
The SB2 NEF is built strong. And the kiiln gun plastic
cases are as strong as most brass cases, so they take
part of the strain also...
Here is picture of a 12ga size drawn brass case that was
made back in the 80s. Case is for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and test other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed

(.600 member)
01/05/09 12:34 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hmm - belted 11 bore - Parker made quite a number of normal 11 bore doubles - of course, ammo is no longer available for them.

Interesting case, Ed. Yes - quite heavy and suitable for pressures above 25,000 - in a gun that is also safe for those pressures.

(.375 member)
03/05/09 02:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.

(.600 member)
03/05/09 11:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I am humbled by your obvious expertise with machinery, the skill and drive you have for these experiments, Ed. Well done.

(.400 member)
04/05/09 07:20 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Great work Ed , I built a 500NE 3 1/4 on a NEF/H-R action , used full nitro loads a few times , but it was just a bit much for all day use in the recoil department !

(.375 member)
08/05/09 02:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32"
barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad.
I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base.
I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing.
I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick.
First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700,
Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber,
with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out.
Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what
to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns.
I have all the different powders and bullets tested.
This is example of a case extracting easy,
due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed

(.375 member)
11/05/09 01:35 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed

(.375 member)
16/05/09 06:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED

(.375 member)
22/05/09 02:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and
750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more,
were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers.
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed

(.400 member)
22/05/09 05:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Well ! makes my 500NE on the HR look like a pussy !

Great work ED , thank you for posting ,very interesting !

(.600 member)
22/05/09 11:43 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Sarg - or a .577 Nitro! With either the light 650gr. or 750gr., it's a 300 yard deer, moose, elk, big bear, elephant or hippo gun.

(.400 member)
23/05/09 06:05 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Damn, i want the 650grs load info for the 2650fps load.

(.375 member)
26/05/09 03:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now
it is done for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done, since
the picture was taken..Ed

(.375 member)
02/06/09 03:35 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

650 gr with 175 gr of W760 ball powder goes over 2600.

The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed

(.600 member)
02/06/09 09:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Those slugs are as hard as full jacket bullets and at
real high speed, and plates were mild steel.

Cast bullets with lead and antimony and with a touch of arsnic, are heat treatable to brinel 35 - max. I seem to remember that dead soft copper is brinel 40. Pure lead is brinel 5, WW run at about 9 to 13 depending on who made them, while Linotype is brinel 22 & brittle. Foundry type is brinel 28.
Ordinary lead/antimony WW can be heat treatable to brinel 34/35 & will penetrate animals just like a non-deforming FMJ RN or FN. Some jacketed ones aren't as good as the lead variety in penetration.

Speed allows penetration all out of proportion to the materials used. A .224", 48gr. soft varmint bullet going through 1/2" of armour plate, yet an issue FMJ '06 made .008" deep pock mark and a .270 130gr. nothing more than a lead splash on the same plate.

For more information on "Jacketed Performance From Cast Bullets", everyone needs Veral Smith's book. Google comes to mind or addresses ro Veral from

(.375 member)
07/06/09 12:19 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED

(.600 member)
07/06/09 11:21 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Big Boomer indeed!

(.375 member)
12/06/09 03:14 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed

(.375 member)
17/06/09 02:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor.
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot.The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed

(.375 member)
25/06/09 02:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on
the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed

(.375 member)
28/06/09 02:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weaponsforum
has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building
it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish
in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. Looks easily big enough
for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking
mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring
and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the
breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach.
It is the the only one like it. They've put a lot of work
into it, especially the hammer block striker setup.Ed

(.375 member)
06/07/09 02:35 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened
and some mag work. Ed

(.375 member)
19/07/09 01:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Using most
cast 12ga bullets like Dixies, the overall length with
3.5 brass is 3.9" and fits 4.05" box ok. Here is picture
PH from bottom showing its big size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has
great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed

(.375 member)
30/07/09 05:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any. 4 bore cases shown,
and I'll use a big ammomaster press for them..Ed

(.375 member)
05/08/09 02:52 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore,
showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating
stop action photo work, as if anyone wwould be brave
enough to put a camera out in front of it
when it fired. Will have it firing by fall.
I plan on using hollowbase lead slugs of
about 1600gr, as it is a smoothbore. Ed

(.400 member)
05/08/09 03:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


(.375 member)
06/08/09 03:34 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

For fun and sport. And for the thrill of
making holes big enough to see easy while
getting a wild ride.Ed

(.224 member)
06/08/09 04:28 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Why? Why not!
Keep up the good work, Ed!

(.600 member)
06/08/09 11:04 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Buck and ball loads are tremendous close-in from such a find 'big bore'. I'd think a good sized handful of 000buck on top of a 4 bore ball should do the trick just fine.

(.375 member)
14/08/09 03:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really gets the
speed in 3.5" cases, as in 3.5" cases,as seal/wads about same,
extra length for powder. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. Muzzle pressure is about 3500-4000 psi.
I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED

(.375 member)
19/08/09 05:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action.
It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a
12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga
barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel
for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am
doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with
MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real
power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also,
as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs
and a loading port that can be lengthened.
And they have a nice style...Ed

(.375 member)
26/08/09 04:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We get asked about finned slugs for
12ga smooth bores and if they take high
speed. Well they'll do just as good at high
speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee
OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long
barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin
finned slug I will get and test later. Third is
BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87.
I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore
12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size.Ed

(.375 member)
02/09/09 03:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed

(.375 member)
06/09/09 02:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga
NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes
these. They are hollow point. 3" group at
50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed

(.224 member)
11/09/09 12:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Who is doing chambering for these? Anyone have a reamer?

(.600 member)
11/09/09 11:23 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed

This is very important and most interesting, Ed - which, of course, you know.
Real world power at less than factory breech pressure - or longer, lower pressure curve - all good stuff for reasonably heavy barrels.
I havent' accuracy tested the Lyman slug yet in my rifled Mossy 835, but turned in some amazing accuracy using WW alloy round balls - stacking, on one top of the other at 30 yards, offhand - good speeds too, using 30gr. of SR4756 in 2 3/4" cases. So far, I haven't tested the 3" hulls I've prepared from 3 1/2" factory. I expect an easy 1,700fps with the 550gr. RB's. What terrific in-camp bear loads these will be, as well as straight hunting loads for bear and moose. More power than needed, of course, but exciting non-the-less. I'd not expect that hard ball to stay inside a bull moose out to 100 yards.

(.416 member)
12/09/09 03:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Will someone please buy Ed a new camera?

(.400 member)
13/09/09 07:10 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

True , He has one of the most interesting and informative treads , but we loss a bit in the pics LoL ! !

(.375 member)
14/09/09 02:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Mathew what chambers are you asking about. Most shotgun
smiths have reamers to deepen chambers. I have reamers
folks can use for my 585,700 wildcats.
Comparing brass cases.I tell everybody who are stepping
up in power from 3.5 plastic, you can get 3.5" brass cases
from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy
and nice they are compared to regular brass cases.
They also make shorter 3" brass cases also.
They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to
get some serious thumping power.And they have a
super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head
like regular ones on the left in pic.Ed

(.224 member)
15/09/09 01:46 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thanks Ed, I was meaning the longer 3.85" chamber I read about. Who made reamers, who has one they are willing to rent or be paid to use etc.

(.375 member)
20/09/09 01:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Dave Kiff at PTG makes reamers I understand, for both
the RMC long case and our long case.

Tested my 499HE in a NEF. Loads I didn't have to
full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case.
325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150.
In NEF got both weight bullets 300 fps faster,
still extracted very easy.I got reamer. Just run it
in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add
a little weight and thick pad to the gun.I have
a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original
bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.Ed

(.600 member)
21/09/09 01:04 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

NEF 500 Nitro - interesting! What's the rate of twist on an NEF .500S&W, Ed? I think they have a .500" groove diameter, or maybe .505" - not sure?

(.400 member)
21/09/09 06:47 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Daryl , I made a 500NE 3 1/4 on a NEF rifle a few years ago , a bit much in full Nitro loads !

(.600 member)
22/09/09 12:12 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I'd expect a few pounds of shot in an epoxy matrix set in both fore-end and butt stock would be necessary.
I do remember ow much my .50 3 1/4" Sharps kicked when I ran 450's out at 2,150fps. O'course, the skeleton steel butt didn't help.

(.375 member)
25/09/09 03:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You can do a lot of nice big bore ideas with NEF.
Just add weight. The 500 S&W I think is about 18"
twist and .500" groove diameter. Uses all the
.500" diameter bullets out there in bigger supply
than the .510" bullet other 50cal use.Something new.

Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle barrel. Barrel
is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise readt to be crimped...Ed

(.300 member)
29/09/09 01:05 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Been meaning to ask-Would the bolt action Marlin slug gun stand up to any of these loads? Haven't seen one in a while but I seem to remember it having a heavier barrel(maybe not heavy enough to use .50 brass as-is though). I noticed the Mossberg 395 mentioned a few times so I got curious about the Marlin.

(.375 member)
03/10/09 04:43 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The Marlin would handle hotter loads than factory, but can't
be opened up in the port for real long cases. The Mossy 395,
495 and 695 can go to 3.5" brass cases, and looks nicer.
The loads I do with the RE17 could be used in Marlin 3 inch,
that I tested above in the Mauser with regular slug barrel.

Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on
the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never
touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in
smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do
great also.Could be made heavier and different points.
Flat point shown would do great damage to game.
On the net-
This one is about 500 gr.

Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W,
shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting
much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed

(.375 member)
14/10/09 09:33 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores here.
Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only.
It is called the US-S slug, and their site is ..Ed

(.375 member)
21/10/09 08:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds.
I had helped him test another slug a while back.
He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr.
I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887
smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at
1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS
seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal
is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing.
Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with
peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized
in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled.
My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle.
These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to
ask their dealers to work to import these for them
to have what seems a good slug to reload...

On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up
to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter
If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long
10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed

(.375 member)
25/10/09 05:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup
with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was
kind enough to send me a few of each weight
to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right.
They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in
3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and
in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both.
With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug
is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My
smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle,
a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth
bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle,
and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot
kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a
heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle,
1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug
gun with slugs like these, and others like the
Brenekkes, I have spare one. The US-S slugs
are smoothbore accurate in my 87 like the
Brenekke KOs.ED

(.375 member)
28/10/09 05:02 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set
up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with
feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I
had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer
than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding
long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The
700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture
case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under
extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is
the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed
for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together.
Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED

(.600 member)
29/10/09 03:14 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - that is one mean looking round! In ratio, very much like a short .45 bullet loaded in a 2 3/4" case, but when one realizes it's a 12 bore, and much stronger than a .700 Express - WOW!

(.375 member)
05/11/09 03:54 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000
in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group
at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with
for smoothbores.
Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled
barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long
brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting
on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype,
third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some,
as it is much easier way. First in picture is
16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long,
3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed

(.600 member)
05/11/09 05:15 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

My shoulder aches just looking at those. 'Course, the 16 bore looks pretty good, though.
2.5" is very good indeed for a large bore on a 50 yard target - from a smoothbore yet is just iceing, lots of it.


(.375 member)
10/11/09 04:09 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I now have a variety of 12GA FH test guns including
two Savage 210s in the lineup...SO I'm selling the first
12GA FH that I did on the Savage 210 bolt action.
Its in original Savage stock now, 28" Pacnor rifled barrel.
Stock is weighted and double thick recoil pad.
It is chambered for the original 3.85" long 12GA FH case.
750 plus shipping, included 4 of our long cases and
30 slugs.That is the first 12GA FH built on a Savage
and the second 12GA FH ever built. Pickup here for MI
guys ok also. Savage 210s are now 550 bucks, the heavy
rifled barrel cost me 350 bucks..Ed

(.224 member)
13/11/09 02:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Sold, can I buy 12 cases?

PM me please.


(.375 member)
13/11/09 05:35 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I PM'd Matthew on other forum, It is his if a local doesn't
show up with money by tomorrow 5pm EST. Which I don't
think he can do. ED

(.224 member)
14/11/09 06:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I will send out USPS MO Monday, I am sitting on my money hoping.


(.375 member)
14/11/09 10:31 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Matthew is lucky guy, it is all his.Ed

(.224 member)
15/11/09 03:45 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Lucky and VERY excited.


(.375 member)
19/11/09 06:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Matthew in Oregon got the 12GA FH Savage.
It is on the way to him.
He is now in the recoil club.

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to
test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted
Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left
the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture
first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third
expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.
Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5"
plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber
with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed

(.600 member)
20/11/09 02:27 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Truely impressive! I like that 'little' 16 bore! Good looking round and in a big bolt gun, given a good barrel and perhaps 1,000gr. projectiles might do good work out to 500 yards on Somoli pirates!

(.375 member)
25/11/09 05:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through
3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic
base and it went through straight without tumbling.
This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it
would be in flight, before hitting target.Ed

(.375 member)
01/12/09 06:54 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting
real small parts without CNC for bushed
firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes

We will have swaged lead slugs
in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They
will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done,
a hundred of them at least.
Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore
cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison
Also 12ga wads for comparison..

Karl can you email me.Ed

(.375 member)
08/12/09 09:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition
Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a
cartridge collector and gun nut friend.

Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim
puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns
base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold
it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with
heat gun from plastic cases,

He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he
puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so
the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside
tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it
do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it
back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That
way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of
time not having to make rim pieces.

We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed

(.600 member)
09/12/09 01:28 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Now that's ingenious. I might have to make up some 3 1/2" .5 cases now, for the Marlin 835. Pretty cool.

(.375 member)
16/12/09 03:21 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
use on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH,
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed

(.375 member)
21/12/09 04:47 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is
of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed

(.375 member)
27/12/09 04:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength. Ed

(.375 member)
05/01/10 04:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by
epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass
case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base
with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed

(.375 member)
07/01/10 06:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little.
These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed

(.600 member)
08/01/10 03:45 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I wondered if that would work Ed. Good idea.

(.375 member)
08/01/10 06:29 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I did a rough crimp job with magtech in a chuck
with a bolt cutter to squeeze a little at a time
going a around it.Not fast or neat, so to do it
right and even, you need a very strong squeeze collet
fixture with collet segments raised to just
push in on the edge you are crimping into
the groove.Ed

(.600 member)
09/01/10 06:19 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Collet crimper might be a bugger to build.

(.375 member)
13/01/10 06:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yes a proper collet closer/crimper with needed strength
I can't afford either. So I am making them with base cups
epoxied on,as guys wanting them for their collections.
Anyone wanting one, 20 bucks shipping included, in the lower
48 by UPS. That is loaded and primed with jacketed slug.

Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed

(.375 member)
20/01/10 05:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over
contact me... Ed

(.400 member)
20/01/10 07:37 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hehe, the rim seems to want to get bigger then the barrel.

(.400 member)
21/01/10 06:59 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hi Ed - I just got hold of "8 Bore Ammuntion" by Douglas McDougall , has both his books in one volume .

Only just got it & have not read though it yet , but has a bit on making a re-sizer for the Rem Industrial case's & reloading them .

If you need any more info (make a change from me asking you) just let me know !

(.600 member)
21/01/10 07:34 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

An amazing thread - 15 pages.

(.375 member)
23/01/10 03:47 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The 8ga rim about .170" smaller than NEF barrel,
Important is that the base is about .280" smaller
so it has good strength.They use good steel in NEF.

It took a few tries, but I got a 8ga resizer working
perfect. And a tool I use on my case lathe smooths
the transition so cases don't hang up when extracting
even with heavy loads.With REM cases I fire about
four times without having to resize.

A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

(.375 member)
31/01/10 04:37 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed

(.375 member)
06/02/10 08:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

(.375 member)
12/02/10 03:02 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed

(.375 member)
22/02/10 02:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads
in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is
stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed

(.375 member)
28/02/10 04:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

On another thread here is concerns about the
MRC PH action. They have couple hundred all done, but
waiting on the firing pins, which are being made now
and then will be heat treated and delivered.
And them he can assemble our actions, adjust pins, test the safety
as fast as they can, and be sent out.
The company making pins went bankrupt, with Jeff having
paid for tooling and 600 pins(for PH and other actions) and they didn't
deliver order before going bankrupt. I have picked up 4 extra actions
from guys who went on to other guns. They are a good actions
for big cases. It is only been 2 years since they started
actually making these and 22 months since they charged my card for
first one.They designed them years before, but things with others in
the firm just didn't help get it going.

I paid money with the knowledge that it was to help get
these actions in production, knowing it would take time, as many
things in the gun business does.While he was making these, he had to
buy out people so as to get busineess going in right
direction. He had avery few PH pins on approval, and he tested first
PH last summer and sent it to me to put my hairy 700HE in
it to test, and I tested it with a 65,000 psi load, Tested ok.
Couple weeks after, knowing pins work, he called to get the rest
of order and got a bankruptcy lawyer. And no pins or tooling.
I know I'll get my other actions. I got more patience than most,
but Jeff has done yeoman job considering folks he had to get
out who didn't seem to help, considering the heat treating took a while
to get perfect( heat treating co fault), and the supplier problems.
Also He is in process of making a complete fully equipped shop,
getting all CNC stuff to do all of his small parts in house ,by the end of
this year.

The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed

(.375 member)
09/03/10 05:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action.
We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also
bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings
hot rod sabot slugs at their out if business auction.
Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough.
Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time,
contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring..
I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH
brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part
with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard
to find and costly.. Ed

(.375 member)
13/03/10 03:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed

(.375 member)
14/03/10 07:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hello. Impressive caliber is there a video shot with these weapons? Would be very interesting to see the effects of projectiles and recoil .

Thank you,


(.600 member)
15/03/10 02:44 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Recoil? - nothing to worry about - 700gr. at 3,000fps - easy peasy, for someone other than me!

(.375 member)
15/03/10 06:46 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We have video on youtube of a 12ga lread slug at
3000 fps blowing up a 6gal pail of water.
Just type in Grandpa's Cannon.Ed

(.375 member)
18/03/10 02:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED

(.375 member)
24/03/10 02:54 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.ED

(.375 member)
29/03/10 02:40 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
Cases in picture are 20 bucks each...Ed

(.375 member)
03/04/10 03:24 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed

(.375 member)
12/04/10 03:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with hammer,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

(.400 member)
12/04/10 03:46 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with hammer,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

Lppkinh forward to it

(.375 member)
22/04/10 02:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed

(.600 member)
23/04/10 12:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - what size is that '4' bore ball? My chart and calculator says a 4 bore round ball weighs 1,750gr.(1/4 of 7,000) At 760gr. it is a lighter 9 bore ball. A 4 bore ball cast from WW metal will weigh in the 1,600gr. range.

(.375 member)
25/04/10 01:45 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have that is full width.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED

(.375 member)
01/05/10 01:53 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and
one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk.
Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases
still didn't expand base. just size top..
Running about 23-25,000 psi.
The light ball load in above post
about 16,000 psi.. Ed

(.600 member)
02/05/10 01:03 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed- what sided ball would make a buckshot load in a 4 bore? That is, 3 or 4 layers of 3 balls that fit the bore in a triangle? There is probably a mathematical equation for figuring that out - it is beyond my match skills.
Just a gues is that .50 cal balls might work, ie: .595". Those would weigh about 182gr. X 9 = 1,638gr.

Sounds about right and what a deer/bear load - or for repelling pirates.

(.400 member)
02/05/10 03:29 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Ed- what sided ball would make a buckshot load in a 4 bore? That is, 3 or 4 layers of 3 balls that fit the bore in a triangle? There is probably a mathematical equation for figuring that out - it is beyond my match skills.
Just a gues is that .50 cal balls might work, ie: .595". Those would weigh about 182gr. X 9 = 1,638gr.

Sounds about right and what a deer/bear load - or for repelling pirates.

Thats a buckshot i would use on game.

(.275 member)
03/05/10 09:29 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I think scaling up 12ga/.73 cal with 3 per layer 00 buck(.33cal)(I think it can stack this tight...)
Makes 3x 44/45 cal in a 1" 4 bore. Or 420 grains per layer.
Ed would have better idea but probably at least 5 layers, or 5 ounce/2200gn payload, maybe even 6oz.

(.375 member)
03/05/10 02:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Three 45cal lead MZ balls near perfect in 1" 4bore
in a triangle layer. 133 grains each. 15 would be good load.
12 would be a higher speed load. 9 would be a super
speed express load. Nine 45cal balls at 27-2900 fps real hairy.Ed

(.600 member)
04/05/10 01:46 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Heh, heh - you're thinking of speeds I hadn't considered.

12 balls, 4 layers would give just about 1,600gr. weight, about the same as a single 4 1/2 bore ball would, for a muzzleloader.

Of course, the rifle's action will allow more pressure, higher velocity - and a paper wrap or two around the balls, ie: post-it note paper from a pad might help hold them together a bit longer for better patterns.

Interesting concept.

(.375 member)
04/05/10 06:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The 4bore/ga is smoothbore for now, so
a shot pattern might be fairly good.
The speeds we are talking about are possible
due to the smooth bore and thumbhole stock
and good weight and balance. It is 28 lbs,
thick pad, and ported. For hard shooters a
thumbhole stock is best.Ed

(.275 member)
04/05/10 11:14 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I reckon a 50cal or 45 cal ball load like that is a big game crusher.
I'm a big fan of Ed's crazy shotloads and sounds like some like minds posting as well. Smoothbore as rifled will donut the pattern I'd say.
If I knew how I would post a pic of what IED attack 'steelshot' ball bearings do to vehicles at a couple thousand fps...

hey Ed is the gun complete or are you still testing while constructing some parts etc?


(.600 member)
05/05/10 02:56 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I guess I should have said the 'Gun's' action, not the 'rifle's' action. I meant gun.

Since you will be using normal wads, a jug-choke of about .020" will improve patterns and I found in a .44 smoothbore with .005" jug, it didn't hurt RB shooting in the least. Others with jug chokes in muzzleloading 20 bores get good results with round balls and shot.

Should also be easy to make nylon or HDPE sabots for a 1" bore. Slit lengthwise like a BRI sabot, they would expand or split out upon firing to touch the bore itself for straight guidance & release well at the muzzle with a mild cone cut in the nose, like the BRI's.

About any large projecile could be used, I guess - how about 3, .735", 600gr. round balls for a buck-shot load?

That ought to leave a mark on something at 1,500fps to 2,000fps.

(.375 member)
06/05/10 01:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some interesting shooting with 4bore.Gun is complete
except extractor, which is getting figured out.
But so far cases just about fall out.

Double 760gr 1" ball load of 1520 gr total, at 2300 fps.

A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each,
and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at 2300 fps.

Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the
turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil
manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't
a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud
like big bore rifles,at least twice as as loud.Ed

(.600 member)
07/05/10 12:48 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hardened rather than pure lead would make ideal hard cover penetrators at that speed, Ed.
A slightly hardened 15 or 14 bore ball, small in comparrison to your 10 bore ball, driven at the low speed of 1,400fps will penetrate "Through and Through" an (Indian) elephant's head.

Solid concrete blocks are fun to shoot with hardened balls at descent speed. i reduced one to rubble with 1 shot from my 14 bore rifle. The block was 14" X 12" X 4" thick. The largest chunk was about 3" in diameter. I still have the ball as it was laying on the ground amidst the rubble.

At an initial 2,300fps, WOW!

(.375 member)
13/05/10 03:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC.
The case capacity in water is 234 gr.
It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the
base of 490gr 20ga hard lead slugs I have.
These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and
I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs
and sabots I have are that size. These cases will
work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme
expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder
will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi,
6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to
put on the FBW Model L falling block.
! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings
SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed

(.375 member)
22/05/10 01:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is pic of the RMC brass 20ga 3.5" with
Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads,
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case.

Second pic is the FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece
thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my
4bore falling block. Second Model L will be built same
in 3.5" 20ga. EDd

(.375 member)
25/05/10 12:53 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Transition, biggest to a smaller, in
putting falling block actions in one piece stocks.
First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge.
And it is pictured above with the cases.
I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.
And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel
we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed

(.375 member)
01/06/10 12:49 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock,
compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock.
Both are chambered in my 585HE.
These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1
will easily handle my 585HE with proper
weight and thick pads. These guns have
rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and
out with least amount of metal removal from
the feed trough, with much more power.
The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga
barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and
Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also
I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed

(.375 member)
04/06/10 01:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. It has 4 rear bolt lugs.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed

(.600 member)
04/06/10 10:20 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Did he bore the 20 mil barrel? I thought 20 mil was about .77 cal. - that's 10 bore. I should know this metric crap - but don't.

(.375 member)
06/06/10 04:10 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The groove diameter on them is about .820"
so I've heard.Ed

(.600 member)
07/06/10 02:05 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Cool! - since 8 bore is .835 - didn't think about the groove diameter - DOH!

(.375 member)
09/06/10 01:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed

(.600 member)
10/06/10 01:51 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


(.375 member)
16/06/10 02:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some have asked if the guy who made above
bolt action 8ga does them for others, but he only
did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer.

Here is picture of a cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot
a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with
our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok.
Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent
meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt
so it has good longer range capabilities when you
get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and
guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug
setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have
a new sabot this year..Ed

(.375 member)
24/06/10 01:56 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is
one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case
and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed

(.375 member)
02/07/10 02:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Have had a bunch of different guys shooting
the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads.
All say it is a tremendous thrill.
Simply the greatest shooting ever.

So many have opinions on what is a real big bore.
I think really big starts at .585........
So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel
Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked
cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys.
This is my only wildcat base case with a neck.
Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720".
and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of
14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot
in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield. Not for
mass production by me, cases too hard to make.
An experiment with necked cases.
Picture of the case later.Ed

(.375 member)
11/07/10 01:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5" plastic cased Hastings 395 gr
locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and
got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't
expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to
peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with
both case types.Ed

(.375 member)
14/07/10 02:04 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some more 20ga- 490gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, got 2400+ fps. Cases very slight
base expansion. About .001" above base.
Load of 180gr RE17, shotgun primer.Ed

Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our
cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed

4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO
700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO
12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO
585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO
577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO
700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO

(.375 member)
25/07/10 01:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

20ga testing- 600gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case
with shotgun primer, 2300 fps. Cases very slight
base expansion. 12 number 1 buckshot,
about 510 gr worth, 2000. Glued a 20ga
card in the brass case over the shot.
Few more guys are around having fun
shooting the 4bore this summer. Ed

(.375 member)
03/08/10 02:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

There are fellas who have and are planning on
doing hopped up loads and cases in the Greener GP,
Martini type action. Here is picture of one done couple
years ago by 450 Ackley here on NitroExpress forums. They
need heavy barrel in place of original. It has a rifled
Pacnor barrel and weighs about 9 lbs. In my measuring an
action here, they will feed a 3" brass case with a protruding
slug, like the cast Dixie or the Henson jkt slugs.
I like the looks of these old classic guns. And they are
strong enough with 3" RMC brass to get 730gr slug to
2000 fps...Ed

(.375 member)
13/08/10 12:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs.
10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave
in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base
for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat
treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed.
Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case,
1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight
at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.Ed

(.375 member)
22/08/10 09:10 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy.
Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth.

The US-S 570gr slug, with
locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds
and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel.
At 2000 fps in smooth bore.

Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300,
2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds;
BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds.
It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity
gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which
affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like
12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast
enough to be supsonic at longer ranges.

This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his
high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds.
And holding tighter groups at longer ranges.
He kept velocity above the speed of sound
further down range......Ed

(.600 member)
23/08/10 01:45 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case
and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed

Ed - I aquired a factory rifled Mossberg M835 - unfortunately, it has a 3 1/2" chamber. I've tried some 1,600fps loads in it with round balls in 2 3/4" cases and received a single 1 1/2" hole for 5 shots - but only shot at 30 yards. I was wondering if you'd PM me some of the loads used in the protruding bullet 2 1/2" magtec brass mentioned in the above post. I am tconsidering of starting low and then working to a 3" load (shortened 3 1/2" cases), either rolled crimp or folded. The longer case should be more accurate than using 2 3/4" or 2 1/2", of course.

I have 2, 14 bore moulds at this time, an adjustable one hemispherical nosed 560gr. to 1,000gr. that can be swaged to the Mossey's tight 12 bore that I made for my .69 ML rifle and the 730gr. .69" minnie that can also be altered through swaging to a larger size to fit as necessary.

Also, I have appropriate sized round ball moulds that fit this gun using gas checks as rifling-taking cups in .684 and .710" as well as a larger .724", which is groove size. The gun's 36" twist is more suitable for a slug, even though the round balls seem to shoot well in it.


(.375 member)
24/08/10 02:29 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I would say your fortunate to have rifled barrel with
3.5" chamber. You can do so much more in the way
of wads to cushion keeping peak pressures down
and making cases last longer and resize easier.It
means you can load brass cases with protruding
slugs about 3.1 overall, and use the magazine.
So with Magtech 2.5"brass don't cut it off, and with
600gr slugs use 95gr of 4759, 100gr 4227, 140 gr RE17.
And you can use same loads in 3.5" plastic, with roll crimp.
Of course fill space with seals and wads.Ed

(.600 member)
25/08/10 12:38 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thanks for the suggestions, Ed.

(.375 member)
26/08/10 02:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Got asked about slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand
it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads,
do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed
of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps.

Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have
with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests
as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier
in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from
the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer.

Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are
stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen.
About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength.
The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like..
If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length.
If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall
with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine.
RCBS has sizing dies. Ed

(.600 member)
27/08/10 12:54 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - I understand it is the long pointy high velocity bullets that are disrupted most passing from super sonic to sub-sonic speeds.

The least effected, is a round ball. As the length, shape and speed change, the more they are disrupted.

Case in point, is my RBlock in a heavy barrel .50 Alaskan chambering. With black powder loads being shot over a 200 yard range, they go from super sonic to sub sonic, yet with tang mounted aperture and globed front sight, it shoots better at 200, then at 100 meters using a flat nosed 550gr. bullet. At 100 meters, it runs 1.4 MOA, but at 200 meters, it's down to .7 MOA.(1 1/2" for 5 shots, both ranges - 109yards per 100 meters)

(.375 member)
27/08/10 01:18 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

But all bullets are down to 1150 fps when starting to go subsonic.
No matter what they were started at.

They have the most disruption(wobble), I understand at the point
of going subsonic and if started like a lot of blunt shotgun slugs
at 1300 they are going through that change at 70-100yds.
After that they settle down and don't wobble so much, but 12ga slug
trajectory, at 1300 slow start, is terrible so most guys don't use them at longer ranges.
Hence the search for speed so they stay supersonic out to 200 yds.Ed

(.224 member)
01/09/10 06:58 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The wobble is caused by the bullet passing through what is called the transonic range. The range of speeds between the speed at which one point on a body transition from supersonic speed, and the speed at which all points transition from supersonic speed.

(.375 member)
04/09/10 01:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red
colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all
plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases
have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi.
They are the size for the 4bores that are about
.950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate
pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after
a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot.
I will test them with a light buckshot loads
of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each.
Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces.
In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga.
The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to
fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed

(.375 member)
12/09/10 01:49 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread,
I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not
yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the
base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever
have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one.
I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight,
and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and
we have the 585 Hubel Super Magnum. This will be my only
bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH
long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 12-14,000 ft lbs.
Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which
it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy
extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with
my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet.
It'll work in FBW Model L..ED

(.375 member)
17/09/10 03:37 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total
1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr.
A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned
the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom
in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some
expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case.

Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases.
Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot
the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel
lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod
loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll
outrun trex.2nd pic... ED

(.375 member)
06/10/10 01:10 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps
extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok.
More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600
with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300
gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a
guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10
and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the
585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case
showing how strong brass is.Ed

(.375 member)
16/10/10 01:45 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets.
Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture.

We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do
10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has,
with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells.
It is hollowbased and 750gr.Also use the same wadcup
for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga
due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels.
Another experimenter has got a bunch
of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test
the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do
them about any time you want.Ed

(.600 member)
16/10/10 02:11 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The original minnie ball for the (mostly contract) rifled .69 muskets prior to the Civil war, was hollow based of course, .69 cal. and 730gr. If these fit 10 bore wad cups, they should be an accurate bullet of decent size for a rifled 10 bore. Lyman makes the mould, still. I have one, but have not tried any in my .69 rifle as of yet.

The .69's were the most accurate minnie rifles in the arsenal, outshooting for range and accuracy, both the .54's and .58's.

(.375 member)
26/10/10 02:07 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in
FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer.
Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr
over 2200. Cases take many reloads with
minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good
and the slower powders get the velocity
without the hard shock to cases, compared to
fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings
factory loads work in the gun also.

Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with
bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and
900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores.
Will let everyone know when he is ready to
make a few for shooters.Ed

(.375 member)
05/11/10 04:35 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work
to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy
barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more
expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock.
They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94.
But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel.
I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga
and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks.

That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, has big breach diameter
like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300"
wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger.
The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end.
In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with
a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed

(.400 member)
05/11/10 05:44 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

So Hubel,

Just where will this thread end? A Boyes, panzerfaust, a 20mm antiflugekannone or bigger?

Just asking.

(.375 member)
07/11/10 12:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Maybe when we get done experimenting, which may be
a while.. And we are already bigger than those with
the start of the 4bore work, later on 2 bore.Ed

(.375 member)
12/11/10 06:24 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some
made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr.
He will make them for a buck each.
Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at
Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs.
For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular
card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals
will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads.
Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X.
For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup
that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores
you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that
will make the overall projectile more front heavy.
Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug,
like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy
Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills
case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED

(.375 member)
29/11/10 02:40 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier,
shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in
their new catalog. We have tested some and one
gets a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds
in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in
our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint
and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for
better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed.
Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed

(.600 member)
30/11/10 06:08 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

What do the 12 bore HP's weigh, Ed? What's their diameter, please?

(.375 member)
05/12/10 07:52 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The ones BPI has are 375gr and .729" diameter.Ed

(.600 member)
06/12/10 04:47 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

.86oz. very light. My rifled barrel has a .724" groove diameter. I suggest anyone slugging their bores before trying these.

They are VERY interesting projectiles.

(.375 member)
16/12/10 06:11 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Jackets are soft copper, so they'd give some.
Start loads down a little.
The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S
slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put
together using different slugs and wads. The object is
60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores
that in the reloading process we can get more power also.
Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads,
with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug.
Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect.
It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate
in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs.
Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie
sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in
using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works.
Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase
soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of
factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs.
And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups.
Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed

(.375 member)
24/01/11 03:09 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of
wood blocks up to 12" through.

20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup.
Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base..
Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through
6" block of wood easy/

Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800,
all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going.
In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood.
going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar.

In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800
fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put
on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad.
I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga
slugs to test later..These 8 and 10 ga slugs with
seal and wads locked on to them are for smooth bore
use. My 10ga and 8ga are smoothbores.

12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12"
wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC
case in NEF.

Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to
collect or look at, let me know. 750gr
slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun.
Soon have barrel in PH and put the real
speed to it. About 33-3400.

Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked
into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action.
Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy
barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block
built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer.
Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed

(.375 member)
24/01/11 03:10 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers,
without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383.
To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227..

On the thread we've written about real slow powders like
H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot,
and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85
inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs.
Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel.

We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG.
It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs,
860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long
brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs
only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17
with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder,
rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite
easier, to get the initial combustion started.

In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps
and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750.
In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus.
Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real
slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup.
And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases
leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about
to high of peak pressures with the heavy slugs or
cases expanding to stick.

Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red
3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out
primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases.
Got a big shop trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders.
Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases.

Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot.
Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed

(.375 member)
24/01/11 03:12 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs,
for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga.
The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame.
I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs.

I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7
inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239.
Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame,
sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209
Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out
of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the
barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga
Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus....

Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with
8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out
using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great
with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with
shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads
go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are
flabbergasted at the difference.ED

(.375 member)
09/02/11 05:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case
I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga
Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber
for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down
as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle.
Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and
I had extra Enfield test action, with the port
opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the
muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga
'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug
to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case
having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases
setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own
seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use
a BPGS and Flexseal over powder.. Ed

(.375 member)
09/02/11 10:35 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga
630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.A clearer description
It is a BPGS type plastic seal, IE, a one way seal,
and a flex type cushion. One way seals best.The seal/cushion,
is the bottom part from 16ga wad cups.
Like bottom half of bottom trap commander 16ga wad.Ed

(.600 member)
10/02/11 03:57 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Good stuff, as usual Ed. tks. Impressive penetration.

Have you tested something closer to what a normal 12 bore gun like a Mossy pump might do, ie: 500gr. WW Lyman at about 1,600fps to 1,800fps?

10/02/11 08:39 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have to say that this is truely an awesome thread, with ton's of interesting information! Lot's of genuine experience and knowledge here, that's for sure.

(.375 member)
12/02/11 06:31 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yes we tested 525gr Lyman in wadcup. Savage rifled bbl.
Slow powder 3" loads good for all modern medium weight barrels-

90 gr of 4759 or 4227--- 110gr of RE17.Ed

(.600 member)
13/02/11 02:49 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

tks Ed.

(.375 member)
26/02/11 01:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup
by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel
into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy
barrel is threaded into the mono-block made
by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions
are taller and wider than other break actions
and the locking lug block works better and
nicer than other break actions.Also shown
is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases.
Second picture is PH action with port lengthened
for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second
change barrel for 700HE long case for this action.
Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE.
Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed

(.375 member)
05/03/11 07:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here are some 20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up.
I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead
slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs
out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them
back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy.
And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown,
which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard
on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive
shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs.

Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga
and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger
barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga.
These are very strong actions, a little smaller version
of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in.
Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED

(.375 member)
11/03/11 05:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look.
Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr
hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so
hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with
smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and
money on the barrel. Ed

(.375 member)
22/03/11 03:51 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with
the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer
and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting
on a falling block will have the chamber long
so I can use both lengths of cases.
The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base
swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The
long brass has shotgun primers.
I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed

(.600 member)
22/03/11 10:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - the 4 bore brass - appears you have two different makes (colour and extractor grooves)?

(.375 member)
24/03/11 06:44 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The two on left are those I make from 20mm brass,
two on the right are turned cases that Ken Owen
had RMC make years ago for double he built.
Both same chamber and size, one from 20mm has wider
extractor groove. Ed

(.375 member)
29/03/11 04:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The long brass 8ga cases have same thick
sides as plastic cases. And there are long
plastic/paper cases out there, but they
are scarce. Thick sides mean a good chamber
fit, so as to minimize case expansion and make sizing
easier. Here is picture 8ga and 10ga fullbore slugs with
locked on basewads that I setup. Wads held on by
screws and slugs hollowbase as well, so to work in
smooth barrels with some accuracy. 8ga is 1100gr.
10ga is 900 gr.Ed

(.375 member)
04/04/11 05:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking
over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and
have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled
reciever built to have more strength and safety.
Well Savage helped us out.

Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia.
I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular
110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210
and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs
where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as
the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and
Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the
barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection.

Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some
hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and
detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened
and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info
as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to
Bob in OR for info.Ed

(.375 member)
13/04/11 04:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one,
got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long.
Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50"
longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra
lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in
front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH
and 700HE long case.

A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make
jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones,
by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form
a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead.
He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs could
be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see
what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga
and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with
the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed

(.375 member)
28/04/11 05:14 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Would have posted back quicker but computer
hookup down for afew days..
Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier doing in
an Enfield. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to
the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600.
I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW
saboted with locked on base.

Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed
front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra
rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield
in my 700H 3.25.
I got some of the work done on 8ga in my falling
block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier.
Will get pictures posted later..Ed

(.375 member)
10/05/11 08:09 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than
the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass
cases for where length is limited..

Using 770 gr saboted slugs with locked on base, by US-S.
Thes are long saboted slugs due being brass and locked on base.
Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17
and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps.
With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot.

For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more
powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps.
I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get
speed like full bore slugs get.

These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started
sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a
real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case.
47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps.

So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with
65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick.
And cases expanded that way are hard to resize.

The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with
a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made
I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra
room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have
to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8"
when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed

(.375 member)
26/05/11 05:18 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith
built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks,
quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being
built by others for sale. And that is absolute
sexiest bolt handle.
Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch
to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing
copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from
the back. He uses a big hammer, works great.
I got a few different sizes of caps and they are
perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber
supply places. ED

(.375 member)
29/05/11 06:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing
caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered
nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a
solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug.

1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets.
5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts.
And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are
malleable enough to shape into jackets,
without a 20 ton stamping press.

Interesting info about our posting of this subject on
about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread,
that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is
Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum..
The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it
about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one
about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views.
We greatly appreciate all the interest from all
the forums, of all sizes. And all the help
and ideas too...Ed

(.416 member)
30/05/11 01:16 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We all appreciate this view into the process!!
Great stuff -- keep it up!


(.375 member)
10/06/11 05:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block,
with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases
made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and
straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore
gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded
to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to
head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some.
It is a really nice looking gun, with great

(.375 member)
25/06/11 06:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working
on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a
one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore.
We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first
put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech
block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see
in picture with lever open and breech down.
I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do
hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture.

Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves
on the back of the breech block on an extension.
I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic.
It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger.
Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower.
Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only
breech and action a little wider.Ed

(.375 member)
28/06/11 05:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also
do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech
block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back,
with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all
and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger.
The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make
the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use
same design, but just be wider on the top of the block.
The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock
from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand.

This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy
built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good
to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed

(.375 member)
08/07/11 02:44 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB..
Here is picture, empty falling block receiver
from the top...2nd a side view of the breech
block with back extensions, with hammer and
trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch.
The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up
inside the two bottom extensions.Ed

(.375 member)
10/07/11 02:35 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore
pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some
of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC.
RMC still has them if anyone needs them.
That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass
or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge
is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one.
Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED

(.375 member)
15/07/11 05:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block.
Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom
extensions are narrower than the top. These are
what the linkage is inside of and when breech is
levered down these fit though the slot in the stock.
And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the
stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same
width for all action sizes.Just top different
for the size of action needed for big cartridges.
This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen
changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore
of 1500gr over 2600.Ed

(.450 member)
15/07/11 07:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You know Ed i have just revisited the first three pages of this thread,its only getting better all the time...and BIGGER!

(.600 member)
15/07/11 11:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

22,521fpe - amazing number

(.375 member)
18/07/11 02:49 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr
hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase
69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a
little, in a 12ga wad cup.
2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a
new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding
petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores.
In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun
powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders
I could get over 2800. Ed

(.600 member)
18/07/11 11:19 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I checked with US-S - they are looking for an American or Canadian distributor. Guys?

Ed - that Dixie bullet should be fairly good with the hollow base helping the weathervane effect of the wad.

(.375 member)
24/07/11 03:00 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals,
and locked on base, shown above is called the
Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr.
And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5"
versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with
shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long
barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts
of our slower powders we load with.

Bought some tubing caps And here is picture
of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet
jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see
a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be
perfectly formed. And with right die they could be
formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll
crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that
would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes
that would do 8ga...Ed

(.375 member)
29/07/11 03:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots.
Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light,
300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average
more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier
slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage
the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity.
Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has
a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard
rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt
spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are
the most accurate.

Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of
675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs.
I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged
it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys
trying to make short loaded brass case rounds
in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than
2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is
on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just
good BPGS seals under it and slower powder.
On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked
on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due
to length of sabot get in enough powder to get
the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the
guys want to get.....ED

(.375 member)
03/08/11 04:31 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture some folks wanted of our
big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison.
In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga,
my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06.

2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we
are checking loads in, to see how much speed
can be gotten.You can easily see the length of
short full bore lead slug, compared to the
saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short
slug load for more speed..

Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or
that I don't like these saboted types. Great for
smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are
the best there is, I think, for big game.Just
got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going
longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED

(.375 member)
13/08/11 02:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of my big 585 cases.
30-06 for size comparison.
3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block,
break, etc, actions.

1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed
for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH.
Can get 20,000 ft lbs.

2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it
now as a single shot in an 1887 Win.
The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is
designed to use in break actions and run about
25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case
has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs.
It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed

(.600 member)
14/08/11 03:32 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed- is that '87 one of the modern re-makes, or an original? I understand that it has a modern or custom barrel - what make, twist, size, groove dia.(actual .585")?

(.275 member)
16/08/11 06:52 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That 585 belted case (from the left next to the 06) has same bolt face as 505Gibbs and will fit into unmodified CZ550 magnum bolt action. It will feed from a staggered magazine just like the gibbs in the CZ. Looks and works like a scale up 458winmag/Lott just fatter. And the same idea as the 500 A square. The Lott and 500A2 two of the modern best big bores. The 585HE makes three. A very clean and simple design, with no rebate, no problems at all. Perfection. The 577/585 handles some really big bullets and wild heavy loads or can still be loaded in at a practical level for a realistic hunting rifle with 577NE plus loads. That practical option, without a muzzle brake or 16-18 pound gun weight seems a real plus to me.

It is IMHO, the best in class, best of all the over 50 designs. No compromise and quite practical if you can say that about any over 50.

Between 50 and 58 caliber there are only odd ball diameters and over 58 will not fit properly in the CZ550, or requires major rebated rim and single column feed. The 58 bore is simply the best fit.

Just an opinion, but I am big fan. IMHO - Ed really has a potential winner in this one.

(.375 member)
17/08/11 02:36 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

FBourbore-- THanks for bragging up my 585HE. It is great and
is perfect in the PH also. And great in many other
styles of actions.

Daryl- Yes that is the modern steel one.
Barrel 30 inches, groove .585"- 1-22 twist is best.
Even with heavy bullets the extra speed we have,
gives plenty of spin for stable flight.Ed

(.375 member)
21/08/11 04:30 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some 10ga experimenting with slug loads.
In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel.
It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs

Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped.
900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus.
Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads.
Slug hollowbase and hard cast.

740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100
10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase slug ..Wadcup has own seal
and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps.

Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in
my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms
BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm
swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC
single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal
barrel. Barrels- BBK 1.32" at breech- CBC 1.18" breech
1.070 muzzles.Ed

(.375 member)
26/08/11 03:21 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed

(.375 member)
05/09/11 02:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
brass case from RMC.

28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.

The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED

(.400 member)
05/09/11 04:23 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell


I continue to ask myself the question of "Why". Other than from a hobbyist perspective I am yet to receive an answer.


(.375 member)
16/09/11 03:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The why is to make bigbores with big power,
in affordable ways, in innovative ways.

Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed

(.375 member)
22/09/11 05:49 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.

I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed

(.375 member)
28/09/11 05:19 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.

Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.

Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to
make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in.

If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs-

(.300 member)
29/09/11 02:32 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hello Ed
I am looking for an affordable 12 guage SXS that I can cut back to 24"barrels and regulate with US-S 570 slugs that I have on the way. Do you know if there are any past or present factory offerings that had barrels heavy enough to handle your reloader 17 loads. Up here in Canada if you want affordable you have to order over the net and take what you get so any help would be appreciated. I know i can get my hands on a good used brno,aya,simson or sauer but they are in warehouses and help is minimal at best.

(.600 member)
29/09/11 10:35 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The side lock BRNO - tradeex has some good price, is probably the strongest action-wise. Many double rifles have been made on them now. Monoblock strength and current barrel strength is the stickler.

I'm going to try some 4759 loads in my pump gun.

Smoke - did you received the .710" balls and wads?

(.300 member)
29/09/11 12:19 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I sure did Daryl. Havnt had a chance to load any yet as I'm in the thick of trying to kill a bear again with my boregun. Got some Ballistic products dangerous game slugs that I'm trying and they regulated at 5" at 75 paces with 45 grns 4756 in cheddite hulls right off the bat so I'm stuck there till I kill the big fellow that's been toying with me for two years. He's 6" across front pad so shoul make 7' bear. Got some US-S 570 coming from Greece for testing but my husky is overbore at .735 and these slugs don't like over.732" tubes so looking at those Brno's on tradex but would like heavy tubes if I can find em. Thanx again Daryl.

(.375 member)
29/09/11 03:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

That is problem with thin barrels on doubles and slower
RE17..... I'd go no slower than IMR 4759 in
all the double 12s that I've looked at.
I've haven't seen any with barrels as
heavy as regular Savage 210s or Mossy 695s,
let alone approaching NEF Ultra thickness.ED

(.300 member)
29/09/11 04:45 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Any load advise for 4759 in 2 3/4" or 3" chambers? Thanks For your research Ed.

(.375 member)
07/10/11 04:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Well with 600gr slugs use 80gr 4759 in modern light barrels,
and in barrels .90"- to .94" muzzle use 90 gr.

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are
being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN.
The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed.

(.600 member)
08/10/11 03:48 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ed - I mic'd my Mossberg M835's rifled tube at .724" groove diameter, .712" bore.

Merely FYI

(.375 member)
17/10/11 04:19 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Well then maybe it'll work better with under size BPI sabots.

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed

(.600 member)
18/10/11 01:46 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thinking of buckshot?- does anyone make 'tungsten' buckshot nowadays with all the non-toxic shot laws?

I'm thinking primarily about those US military 12 bore loads using 'hard' shot - the 7mm load for instance - #3 or #4 buck - .28" in tungsten, supposedly went through an issue helmet at 150yards. They initial speeds were in the 1,800fps range, but at 2,400fps to 2,600fps, that's some lethality! Fun testing, too.

I am not suggesting any illegal use - just the old article I remembered from G&A or some other magazine came back to me when I saw those high speed buck loads, Ed.

(.375 member)
29/10/11 07:27 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Remember these from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed

(.300 member)
29/10/11 10:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell



I continue to ask myself the question of "Why". Other than from a hobbyist perspective I am yet to receive an answer.


Who cares why. He obviously enjoys what he's doing and many, many find it interesting. I would love 10 bore gun from the old days to play about with. Why, because I can.

(.300 member)
02/11/11 05:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Received my us-s slugs from our member Elvas and couldn't be happier. This is a great looking product and I can't wait to send some downrange. Am waiting on a new to me shotgun to modify for use with these slugs. Any updates Ed on the 2 5/8 brass and us-s slugs? By the way fellas Elvas is great to work with and shipping was no problem. Thanx again Elvas.

(.375 member)
04/11/11 04:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Well we are going to use expanded Lee slugs in the short
brass to have powder room to get the speed the
short brass guys want. That is why I like long cases
as you have more choices like the US-S, regular
sabots, as wel las Lee and Dixie. etc.

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
than we have today, so our work is a good extension
of what the early big bore guys did.

And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed

(.375 member)
08/11/11 04:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
if ever available..

3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed

(.375 member)
20/11/11 03:36 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
called the Field I think. Looks like some other
side levers, looks like lever works forward.

And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
bores only wider.

I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
out to the two bore size.
And a square hole for breach block done
in that hunk of 4130 steel.

Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed

(.375 member)
29/11/11 05:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed

(.375 member)
04/12/11 02:59 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
magnum primers.

A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
Mag primer about a foot of flame.

Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed

(.400 member)
04/12/11 04:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

^the FB is a Field's patent action.

(.375 member)
14/12/11 07:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
down to these slugs.

And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back
and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

(.375 member)
21/12/11 05:57 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
Looks like the roll crimp locks against
the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
have more room for our slower powders.ED

(.375 member)
29/12/11 04:19 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of 4 long cases of
RIP's on the AR forum.
Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
getting these and lengthening chambers
allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
Some factory guns are 3.5"

Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
Chambered for these you can use
3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
3.5" from the factory.

3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.

Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
see one of those slugs in the picture.

Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
It is great to see a smooth bore slug like the US-S
that is as accurate as most fullbore slugs from
rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
from European Cartridge.Ed

(.400 member)
30/12/11 11:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Neat! Keep it coming, sir!
How are the 2 bore projects coming along?

(.375 member)
05/01/12 07:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
pictured have the locked on base that their
other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
for doing slugs like these.Ed

(.416 member)
06/01/12 01:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Nice work Ed!

(.450 member)
06/01/12 02:31 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A keen man at the bench,many hours spent there too Ed by the looks of all your work.

(.375 member)
11/01/12 11:54 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
I show this to promote the use and testing of smooth
bores for accuracy with right slugs as opposed to
to neglecting the possibilities they have.

3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
penetrating solid bullet, from France.

(.300 member)
14/01/12 04:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Shot off some .715 patched round balls loaded ahead of 80 grains of imr4759 today. Balls weigh in at 525 grains. No chrono available right now. Any guess at what velocity these would be traveling at the muzzle Ed? By the way this is a very nice shooting load.

(.600 member)
15/01/12 05:33 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

What primer, Smoke? What wadding did you use?

(.300 member)
15/01/12 04:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Cheddite hull and primer, trap wad trimmed down and a lubed hard card wad. Lots of compression with a roll crimp.

(.375 member)
18/01/12 04:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You should have 1700 depending on barrel length.
You can go up to about 95 gr with that weight
of slug/ball. Could you mike a new unfired case
just above the rim, and measure a fired one.
We use that as idicator of how high you can go.

Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.

Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.

Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
get for reloading, and we're finding that these
locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

(.600 member)
19/01/12 02:40 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I did some brief testing with nylon and lexan saboted .30 cal bullets in my .458 - years ago. I went up to about 3,600fps with a 150gr., but accuracy was almost ruin chornograph each shot deal. The idea has merrit.

(.375 member)
19/01/12 06:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I think there is a balance between sabot
thickness and bullet diameter, when
putting them out high speeds,in rifled.
What I mean is I think in your 458 example the
sabot should have thinner sides with say a
375 cal bullet.That is why I am going to see
where I can find 12ga sabots taking 58cal bullets
or maybe 620 cal.I have pictures on soon of
this idea. I think for high speeds there is
such a thing as to much plastic.Ed

(.600 member)
20/01/12 07:51 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I agree - the 'sabot' has limits, but of course, the limits are closely tied with the material being used. The harder the sabot material is, the thicker it can be, I'm sure.

In the .458 scenario, they were making 4,000fps with 220gr. RN bullets. The whole idea (I assume) was to break 4,000fps with a .458 WinMag. using a reasonably heavy bullet. I doubt that bullet held together for very long, but hard to say. Barnes TSX are available in 250gr., but I suspect the friction would be too high, to get much over 3,000fps with them.

A still like shooting bore size, or almost bore size in a shotgun, rifled or smooth.

I freely admit the sabots might have some military applications, for sure - a 12 or 10 bore platform makes for a LOT of diversity in projectiles.

(.375 member)
20/01/12 03:46 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.

Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.

Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
or in sabots if we can find some.ED

(.375 member)
26/01/12 01:09 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
and locked on base types.

First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
tight, into the base.

Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
3.5" RMC cases.

Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
I wish the BPI was full size like the others
and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........

Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed

(.375 member)
04/02/12 11:49 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some more slug setups and ideas.

First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
Shown with BPI powder cup seals.

2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
With corresponding length cases they were designed for.

3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.

4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

(.600 member)
04/02/12 12:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

WOW Ed - sure bringing a lot to the table to stimulate and get the productive juices & hopefully testing juices as well.

I'm having a bit of a health deal right now, hard to deal with other stuff - been going on for a while, but things are comming to gether, slowly. (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.)

(.375 member)
13/02/12 04:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
They look like Berdan primed. Run from
36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.

Second is a paper case clad with
thin brass nearly to the top.

Third is picture of paper case crimped into
the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
pictured above with a Dixie slug.

Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
that have been available, for reloading guys. That
the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
had to work with.

I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
Can be loaded faster.

No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
than witches ---, and no time.
I am trying to find who makes these.There are
about 2000 injection mold companies in US

(.375 member)
22/02/12 06:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
Slug is .629" diameter.

Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.

Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
Man what nice old guns.

Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

(.400 member)
22/02/12 07:36 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Geezuz. Whats the comparison cartridge? And the ball. And what weight are the 1.5" slugs?
Do it! You know you wanna... Build The One gauge!

Wonder how much those 4 bores went for?

(.400 member)
22/02/12 08:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ash , I took that photo of a page in a old magazine I had , down loaded it & posted on another tread about 4 Bores on here I think .

(.450 member)
23/02/12 01:05 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Geezuz. Whats the comparison cartridge? And the ball. And what weight are the 1.5" slugs?
Do it! You know you wanna... Build The One gauge!

Wonder how much those 4 bores went for?

35 Rem.

the ball is a 50mm canon ball, the case is the 37x92R better known as POM-POM
the minie bullets were made for a muzzle loading canon made from a 3,7 cm german flak barrel

(.600 member)
23/02/12 03:23 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

yes - .35 Rem with 200gr. Scalloped Jacket RN.

We shoot a cannon with a sleeved 1-1/2" bore. We shoot 1.4" cast & patched WW balls from it, actually won the cannon shoot with it.

I cannot envision trying to stop that heavy cannon from rolling back when we fire it, let alone shooting something like that from the shoulder. Of course, the cannon weighs well over 500 pounds - and we don't cheap out on the powder.

I assume the 2"(50mm) ball is at least a 2 pounder or maybe 2 1/2 pounder, since a 1 pound is 1.67".

(.375 member)
25/02/12 01:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Yes I got the picture off of here, That slug gave me the potential idea
of a 1 bore using cut off at the shoulder surplus 30mm cases, if I get ambition.
Probably stop at the 2 bore.

Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
like ones we want to get made for reloading.
They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.

Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.

Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.

Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED

(.600 member)
26/02/12 02:10 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Well, we surely appreciate this thread here, Ed. It really provokes thinking and ideas about the slugs and what can be done to help with accuracy.

It's also a big eye-opener on the slower burning powder use in our shotguns, rifled and smooth, with slugs or balls.

I'm not surprised over the tilting or collapsing of the long cushion wads, Some, by design, of course, would be worse at this than others. I've usually only loaded with harder wad columns, built up without cushions.

(.375 member)
05/03/12 05:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

If the longer plastic cushions collapse straight they
are just as good as older fiber ones, but they go
crooked part of the time it seems.I have federal one piece
hard plastic seal and cushion here, they use under their
sabot loads, that the cushion part is real short in the middle
of it and it crushes straight all the time.Doesn't cushion much.
But you know all they got to do is use slower shotgun powders,
and extreme or no cushioning isn't needed. It is like the
tall shotwads with seal attached to bottom, for steel shot,
that are not cushioned, they just use slower powders.
Like longshot, alliant steel, blue dot, etc. Ed

(.375 member)
10/03/12 03:24 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
high as others who have to set up complete machines.
We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
have similiar design as the ones pictured below
but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.

Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.

Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
actions like this and great value for no more
than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
smooth barrels.

Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
HERE on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
on nice looking slug gun.Ed

(.375 member)
25/03/12 03:54 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different
58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie
Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
when folks cast their own.

I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.

Some stuff about sabots. I get questions about how
to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
fullbore cast....Why, they want lighter for less recoil in
regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.

Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
setup on NEFs, and CBCs.

Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
extra weight.

(.416 member)
25/03/12 04:02 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I love this thread.

(.375 member)
06/04/12 11:48 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
due the economy.

Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.

4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed

(.600 member)
07/04/12 06:24 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I have one of those Husky's, but the left barrel is rifled- straight. It is .705" groove to groove, so a tight 13 bore, while it is chambered for the 16 bore brass case.
The serial # puts it made around 1900. Husky data shows the smooth bore, a 16 bore, is meant for paper cases with shot from it's modified choke, while the rifled barrel is meant for a brass case with round ball and black powder load.

It shoots to the sights with 3 drams of 2f BP, filler wads and a patched .662" or naked .684" naked ball. The cloth patched balls are more accurate from the straight rifling and due to the lubricated patch, there is no fouling buildup shot to shot.

(.375 member)
18/04/12 05:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
straight as possible for accuracy.

Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.

Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.

Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
"Lethal" and the "destructor".

Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

(.375 member)
06/05/12 10:19 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I think we found good overall sabot design that will
be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
of slower powder, better velocity with less case
expansion, and more reloads possible.

We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
for penetration until now.. They did very well,
two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
compared to short fullbore ones....

Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
on.There are many makers and brands and styles
of molds and weights available.

Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.

Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
Great looking gun..Ed

(.600 member)
07/05/12 01:42 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

You can easily increase the weight fo the .58 minnies by turning the plunger down and shortening the hole it makes in the end of the minnie bullet - all the way to solid is expansino isn't needed, or it fits well in a .58 bore. With heavier charges or the faster burning powders & if of pure lead, the solid .58's will slug up to fill the grooves (if any) of the barrel. Also, since they fit the sabot in that situation, they do not obtruate and get out of balance as could happen with thin skirts.

(.375 member)
21/05/12 02:55 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
down to 350 gr and less.

Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.

In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..

Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
Possibilities are really great fun. Ed

(.375 member)
07/06/12 03:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
We are working on it.

Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.

Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
the accuracy.

On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

(.450 member)
07/06/12 07:26 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Love your work Ed and love this line too

"The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal. "

(.375 member)
25/06/12 05:47 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
allow it to tip or go off center.

Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.

Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

(.375 member)
11/07/12 03:37 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

With an other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
done later this month and will be doing cases then.
Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
real good deal..

He will ship whole bulk order to me.
I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks,
or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks.
I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
and get it to me and I send them on to him.
I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
money ready to go for over 700.
Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed

(.450 member)
11/07/12 06:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Nice to see an Aussie connection helping out Ed.

(.400 member)
12/07/12 09:22 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hey Ed, how's that 2 bore coming along?
I like the idea of a cheapish huge caliber rifle, any updates on the drawings you mentioned producing for sale?


(.375 member)
08/08/12 02:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again.
Can't find time to work on 2bore yet.Haven't got barrel drilled yet.

Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a
two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a
little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot.
Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled
barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round
balls 285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds.

Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile.
Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead,
muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x
seal and white felt cushion under sabot.

Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25,
and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and
added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel
16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed

PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE.
He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run
as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on
first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to
me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved,
no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain
compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved
enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with.
My contact--- gunowner at

For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries
send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done.
Right now can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US...


(.375 member)
16/08/12 10:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

For you folks in Australia, Bertram is
getting ready to make the run of my 585HE
cases. Would there be a bunch of you
interested in a group buy, of the cases
right direct from him. If so, no time like now,
and he will be able to make more runs later,
whenever needed, as the production of my
cases works along with continuing orders
of another cartridge he has to make every
month or two.. I can't ship economically to you
from US, when you there can get from him
for 3 bucks US each. And Manson Reamers
here in US can supply reamers, CH4D in US
has the die sets. It is perfect case for
bolt guns and falling blocks, and I even have
it in break actions. A light load is 750 gr
at 22-2300, and any action a 505 Gibbs
fits into will do 585HE. And I have loads all
tested, developed. I plan on using the rest
of my days making this case the best and
most used 577/585 big bore. I'm also posting this
message for African and Canadian shooters.
Time to step out and
join the fun......ED

(.375 member)
26/08/12 01:23 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two
58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot.

Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon,
in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal
bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and
the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also.
The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left
measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases.

Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns
just for testing the different style guns, and different loads.
In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting
my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting
8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds.
Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges.

Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in
rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels.
Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I
have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case
partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel
also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break
action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong.

And an ultimate big bore from history.ED

(.375 member)
29/09/12 10:50 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots
soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers..
We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run
for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch
this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info
if your interested contact me.

We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums
and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and
58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug
load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and
also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of
commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575"
470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel.
That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below.

Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth
super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases.
Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases.

Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a
heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28"..
I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just
to show all the uses the case has.

I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases.
It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus.
I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in
a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed

(.375 member)
29/10/12 03:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that
has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with
chokes. Will have pics few days. Also pics of
585HE case samples from the first run
of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED

(.375 member)
04/11/12 05:37 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Good news, We got a few samples from the first production run of 585HE
cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity.
They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace,
which was all within the .270" length minus .004".specs I asked for.

He made part of run, about a 1000 without headstamp..And over 3000
with headstamp. Over 4000 total. Cases only 3 bucks each,
if you get in on the first bulk shipment right away..Still time
before he ships.I want as many bulk freight shipped as we can.
Got money in for about 1000 so far. The few he shipped by mail to test,
cost $1.50 postage each, so that is why we want to get the numbers in the
much cheaper bulk freight order as big as possible.Folks in
AUS order direct from him.

I tested some moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti
break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Cases fell out.
Real tough built cases, Fired couple 650gr at 3000 in Enfield and extracted
ok, and resized ok back down to specs.About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight.

He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot military sniper loads
that run real high average pressures.So maybe we have a winner.He will be making
these Cheytac case runs regular so we can get our cases made anytime
we get money built up for a run.Here are pictures.

First is old on left and new on the right sectioned,
showing how heavy built the new cases are, as well as
Cheytacs he makes that has same base inside.Our 585
is belted and he uses different header, than for the
Cheytac/Gibbs bases one which uses a header
with no belt.

Second is top view of cases new and old. On the left is
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
He made a 1000 without headstamp and over 3000 with stamp.

Third side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. Notice how uniform belts are.

4th is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others
behind. Maybe have a military use, saving brass and
use smaller actions than bmg and 14.5 Russ.
With about the same power as a bmg. Ed

Here is the breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar.
It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth,
with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun.

(.275 member)
17/11/12 11:43 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


Ripp's thread on Montana Rifle Company got me to notice the low price of the big 505Gibbs PH rifle. Wow! Just over $2k for a Gibbs. Beats CZ by almost a grand.

Have you considered working with Montana Rifle Company to get some version of the 585 offered in that $2K safari rifle? I know you gave them a lot of support during the times many on that other forum were complaining about the slow development time for the PH action. A nasty crowd over there. Well the action is done. Now a very reasonably price complete rifle built around that action. It would be nice to have a source of loaded ammo. Superior? I would assume from a manufacturing point of view you would want the rim exactly to 505 specs. I like the 3" case version, but; I am certain that a 3.25 chamber would not hurt anything and be more flexible. I would be nice if there was offering a practical hunting load like 750gr @2100 fps, in addition to a bragging rights (12,000? ft-lb)load. A level I and II choice.

The trick really would be for Montana to agree to chamber any version of your 585 for ~$2K in a no frill package. Ammo availability might promote sales.

I have to agree a bbl band seems almost mandatory these days. Even low cost Ruger 375's went that route with a little complaining. You might pass that along if you have an opportunity.

(.375 member)
19/11/12 11:21 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

After a bunch of cases are here I will talk to them,
I didn't know about complete Gibbs rifle build, Maybe
get the new Jamison Co to make cases and loaded rounds.,
Also plan in future approaching Ruger and Hornady
who work together, to start with #1, easiest to do first.

Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has
one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach.
Nice looking gun.

Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander
shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups.
Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal.
Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW,
Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got.
Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga,
with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed

(.600 member)
19/11/12 01:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Good group, Ed. What speed & what weight of minnie? Slight yaw showing on all of the holes-mostly on the bottom 3.

(.375 member)
21/11/12 03:18 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Ajay shot those, I think it was 450 gr or so Minie.
Going about 1600. Quite good considering he is
using plain old thin sided shotcups. Ed

(.375 member)
06/12/12 02:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
12ga barrel for it..

Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
with putting on a thumbhole stock.

Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

(.375 member)
02/01/13 05:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
. It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
and the Magtech 199 shown above.

Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

(.375 member)
14/01/13 01:17 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving
room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length.

Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up

Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the
deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002".
And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed

(.375 member)
31/01/13 02:51 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
right is factory SPW.

Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.

Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed

As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed

(.450 member)
01/02/13 05:32 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Geezuz those copper pills look like rocket ships!

(.600 member)
01/02/13 10:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell


(.375 member)
01/02/13 07:02 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Those boat tail bullets are 30cal in 45
caliber sbaots. Look big due to closeup.Ed

(.450 member)
01/02/13 09:25 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

And here I am thinking they are more of your monsters Ed

(.375 member)
26/02/13 06:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the
bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

(.400 member)
27/02/13 06:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tell me more about that '87, please?

One in .70-150 would be too much fun.

(.375 member)
01/03/13 04:33 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

He had a short real heavy barrel put on, stock checkered and
carved, great bluing job.I didn't do any of that, I'm helping get
the best loads with short brass RMC cases. He had it worked on to
feed short 2 5/8 brass cases and crimped 3" plastic cases from
the magazine, I got short case load that gets 600gr bullet
to 1900 for him.Ed

(.600 member)
01/03/13 08:57 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

With a 12 bore ball weighing 583gr. (.730" - pure) along with the copper tubing, probably .032" wall along with the steel screw, the weight would be over 600gr. - no slouch and an excellent idea.

I've a feeling I should try this in the rifled Mossberg pump. If a person could find some 5/8" ID pipe, it should run about 11/16" (687") OD. With a wad centered, tube filled and screwed tightly to the ball, the base wad would obturate to seal the powder gasses behind it and take the rifling as would a groove diameter ball (.724" in my 12 bore Mossberg), thus should shoot quite well. Length could be adjusted for best accuracy in whatever twist happens to be in the gun - ie: 35" or whatever you have. The copper tubing (or aluminum - some comes in standard ID measurements, while most copper is outside diameter) would not ride on the rifling at all, kind of a wasp waist bullet, reducing pressure and allowing higher velocities, if deemed necessary.
It is amazing what and how deeply a hardened 12 bore ball will actually penetrate if driven 1,500fps or faster.
According to Samuel Baker, through and through an elephant's head, ie: 'exit'. Sounds deep enough to me.

Thanks for this thread, Ed - MUCH food for thought with most of the thought already spelled out and tested.

(.400 member)
08/03/13 09:44 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Do you think a 10 gauge with slug style bullets would work in a greener GP? Or is it too big to fit?

Thanks Ed!

(.375 member)
13/03/13 11:16 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A full length 3.5" 10 ga case will bind up going
in and out of the action. Even have tight fit with long 12ga.Ed

(.400 member)
14/03/13 08:40 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Bugger, was hoping for a quick and cheap way into a 10 gauge rifle.

Thanks Ed.

(.375 member)
15/03/13 04:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I love the Greener and I have my 585HE in one, but
I wish they were bigger with thicker sides,
for real big stuff.

Well you can set up inexpensive in other guns.Go smoothbore
and experiment and get some 50-70yd accurate smoothbore
10ga setups with the BPI VP100 wadcups and hollowbase
69cal Minie bullets. And then get the heavy bull barrel NEF
10ga goose gun, the newer SB2 models.The long barrel is
best with hairy loads They are alloy frame, heat treated strong
and will take our slow powder loads of about 2000 fps.Ed.

(.375 member)
17/03/13 08:41 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
as 3' plastic crimped little long.

Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
in wads as opposed to fullbore.

Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
.Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
instead of 65,000...Ed

(.375 member)
29/03/13 09:24 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
We have big bunch of the sabots here now.

All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

Interested in sabots -- gunowner at Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

(.375 member)
31/03/13 03:34 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.

After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"

Interested in sabots--- gunowner at Ph- 1-989-644-5228
THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
Or $20 for 50 postage included..
.Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed

(.375 member)
04/04/13 03:39 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
get them and get loads working.

A little levity in this process.Ed

(.375 member)
09/04/13 03:01 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
cushion wads.

The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
Many of you need to get in on the fun.
Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..

(.375 member)
30/04/13 02:05 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The sabots aren't moving fast at all and I got to
money back out of them right way, and seeing as how
we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers,
and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and
set up so they can be selling the sabots, so we will try
selling them fast a few weeks longer. So to get these
moving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we will
be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only.
We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so
the guys can see what we have found that works.

Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags
of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay,
we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders..
So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl.

Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68
plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few
years all over the internet that bought undersize junk,
that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones
they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard
from most of them, So guys please get around quick
and help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed

(.375 member)
07/05/13 01:47 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

(.600 member)
08/05/13 02:37 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Hi Ed - I sent you a private message concerning wads.

(.375 member)
09/05/13 06:01 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I answered as follows.Info eor everyone.
I can't ship no reloading stuff out of US without expensive
export liceanses and I have get one for each shipment.
To make it pay someone might have to buy 50,000 from mfg and do the
paperwork, give gov money, and set up as a seller in their country.
And I don't know if mfg would want to do the paperwork.
I'm going to ask and find out.

Which would be fine with me. I'd like to see sellers in
Canada, Australia, South Africa, UK, EU, etc..ED

(.600 member)
09/05/13 01:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thanks Ed - certainly answered my questions.

(.375 member)
26/05/13 05:41 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

And more important item that causes a lack of accuracy is if the
base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
flattened, put in the bottom and a 400gr Minie above, two different
styles of Minies.

Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
for them. I made them after Paul in Alaska asked about
where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

(.375 member)
22/06/13 12:48 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support.

Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big.

Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed

(.375 member)
05/07/13 03:44 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed


(.375 member)
18/07/13 09:48 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
you can get molds for from Lyman,
Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter.

A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed

(.375 member)
21/08/13 05:47 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
problems occur go to 4759.

What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

(.375 member)
15/09/13 01:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
the faster powder did for him.

Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
180 degree crimp down on top of it.

We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
single shots and checking couple lever actions.
Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

(.450 member)
16/09/13 04:02 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

funny gun law and like allways in such a situation people looking for a clever interpreting. my first thought was its made for the civil war breech loading carbines to make them like muzzle loader by law.
this is the right thing for the german 40 mm long lancaster bullet cartridges especially if you work with the Gras carbine. many of them were sporeterized as cheap shotguns in 20,24,28 and 32 ga. it would be possible to rifle the shotgun barrel making the gun barrel diameter the land diameter and shot the 40mm long brass case with lead bullets in this.
if the gras action is still original the 32 ga brass is the right stuff and fit the 11 mm gras bolt head. btw, .54 muzzle loader bullets fit like a glove in 32ga magtech brass.

50 Smith brass and plastik case,50 Maynard,54 Gallager, 54 Sharps( one of the different cases design popular for replica sharps in europe)

56 Spencer CF,56 Spencer CF(different case) 32/40 with 54 cal Muzzle loader bullet, 28/40 for my Husqvarna 17a, 20/40, 17mm Danish Snider RF, 18mm French Tabatiere

(.375 member)
16/09/13 05:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Law is just a deal to shorten ranges bullets carry for
safety in crowded areas.

The Gras in the picture is 16ga, and they even made a 12ga.
They also in 1880s coverted the original 11mm to 8mm Lebel.
Guy wants to see what is possible with the 585.

The 585HI would be perfect for Nosin Nagant. There are
a million of them. And there plenty of cases to
make them from. Would work in all the short actions
that are the vogue now, get rid of the small bore junk...Ed

(.375 member)
16/10/13 11:58 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
.Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
and sometimes you have to use different wads..

In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
run of cases made in a factory.

Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed

(.375 member)
09/12/13 06:06 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
powder but made it much smaller using much more
of the slower 4759.

There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
them or don't cast their own.......
Contact is- jeff.a.white at
If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
our 585 cases imported for sales there

I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to
the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case.

Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.
Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit
inside thr hollwbase of the bullet....Ed

(.375 member)
02/01/14 07:06 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
577 NE bullets also.

For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"
Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper
than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice
walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

(.375 member)
28/01/14 12:32 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
cheaper if you cast your own.

Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
In back some of the cases and die sets.

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields
through the winter. Ed

(.375 member)
22/02/14 05:52 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
And case expand a lot and are harder to resize,
But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit.

So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.

Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
case can hold.

It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
minimum specs so cases don't
over expand.ED

Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

(.600 member)
23/02/14 05:02 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thanks for making the wads happen in Canada through Jeff White - I got a couple bags of wads and am now about ready to begin experimenting. I have a couple moulds if .575 and .580 as well as STEEL and H's Longshot, IMR 4759 powder along with a can of Blue Dot.

Have you tested any loads with the Lee R.E.A.L. .58 bullet? - at 440gr. in pure lead? The other one I have is a .575 or .577 in the Lyman Enfield minnie bullet at about 560gr. I expect I'll changed the shape of the HB plunger to a thicker skirt and increase the weight to about 580gr.

(.375 member)
23/02/14 09:13 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

I haven't tested REAL slugs but they might work if they are
about .575-578"....

I find lots of Minies which I like best as they are
cheap and work with slower twists better, so I never
tried the REALs... I just found about 350 of the .575"
old style Lyman Minie in two batches for 79 bucks
shipping included. Ed

(.600 member)
23/02/14 12:13 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The R.E.A.L's need a wad inside the base of the cup, I'd think due to their short length.

I just loaded up some double round ball loads for testing - I'll have to wait for warmer weather now - entering a bit of a colder snap.

(.375 member)
14/03/14 11:24 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into
the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works
good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut
plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a
tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug
with foam pressed into the base..

How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
slightly longer stroke.Ed

(.375 member)
24/04/14 03:34 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
to match 577NE power.

Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

(.300 member)
26/06/14 01:11 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Haven't posted much lately, nice to see ne developments. Still want to build an original 12 from hell on a heavy NEF slugger, just having trouble finding a donor gun for a good price. Of course, with the biggest thing in IA to shoot being whitetails, I might have to travel and find a bear.

(.375 member)
15/08/14 06:11 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.

Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give
good resistance for good ignition.

Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585
will go about mach 4.

Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed

(.600 member)
16/08/14 12:49 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Browning has come out with a bolt action 12 bore rifle. It has the appearance of an "A" Bolt rifle, with a much larger bolt and of course a good stiff barrel. Unfortunately, the rifle is about $1,150.00 here.

(.400 member)
16/08/14 07:57 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Daryl, one of the chaps in our club bought a Browning A-bolt in 12g and brought it to a club shoot. He was using Hornady Sabot slugs and it was very easy to shoot and very accurate. Build quality was typical A-bolt, however it performed very well.


(.375 member)
23/08/14 09:00 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

It has been around for a number of years,

but expensive, Has a real tight barrel and

is undersize for our 12ga sabot compared to

savages and nefs, and a guy out west here had

to go to a slower powder to get good accuracy in his Browning..

Regular shotgun powders tore up sabot in his Browning..

He got a deer with it with our sabot and right

powder.. A lot of factory sabots are

smaller diameter than ours and work in tight barrels

right out of the box.

(.600 member)
23/08/14 09:30 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Tks for the info. Fora 12 bore bolt gun, they looked pretty good. A recent mangazine - maybe Rifle, has an article on them with sabot loads tested for accuracy at 100yards.

My Mossberg m835 has a .724" groove diameter - sung.
I've a few rounds loaded with the .58 sabot and double round ball loads, but so far, haven't papered it. I thought they might make good Spring Black Bear loads. Good to note about the sabot diameters - thanks again.

(.375 member)
08/09/14 07:59 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed

I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed

(.375 member)
26/10/14 01:55 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets
and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
or wide hollowpoint. .

Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.

Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
to our 585HE the strongest yet.

The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

(.375 member)
20/12/14 08:11 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
special made hollowed out long roll crimper.

Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.

I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....

A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed

(.600 member)
20/12/14 10:53 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

650 at 3,300fps = 15,721 fpe = yikes.

(.375 member)
14/02/15 07:06 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..

Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
bunch of them and so does McGowen.

Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
work in our 12ga sabot..

But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.

Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
way to keep them together group wise.Ed

(.375 member)
22/04/15 08:56 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,

Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.


There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.

Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.

And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED

(.375 member)
27/06/15 08:04 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
180gr under a 750gr'.

We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
if they could have found couple barrels full.

But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
and moderate loads, last forever..

For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
(not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

(.375 member)
06/07/15 02:50 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Probably first 375 caliber cartridge made from 585HE necked down, the 375 Warlord.

Guy did a real nice job, with what looks similiar to a Weatherby style shoulder.

Kinda outdoes Weatherby & Cheytac. We have cases with no headstamps for wildcatters.

First picture I got sent me today off of facebook and this one is from the great sniperforums.

Another fellow is planning on shortening the 585HE to maybe 2.4", for use Marlins and Henrys,

and other leverguns, redoing their 45-70s. With the belt they will have good headspace control.

Without a rim that takes up circular space, say like our 24ga FH, a 585 bore, but which is perfect

with a rim for break actions like our 24ga FH in a Magtech...Ed

(.375 member)
02/09/15 10:32 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here are couple 24ga FHs in break actions, a CBC with monoblocked
a 585 barrel into, and a guys NEF he monoblocked in a 585 barrel.
The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga and 585 Minie Bullets
are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit.

Another matter--- I know it seems like I'm begging for help when
I ask guys on the net for help at times. . But I really am in a bind.

That is the truth, Our small income disappeared from our farms truck
garden business as my my knees are shot and can't hardly
walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition
got so bad she can't work, nearly invalid. We need extra money to try
to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities.
As well needed to pay for traveling to doctors, treatments,drugs, etc.

Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums
and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and
debt. Like 10 or so bucks each put into my paypal account as gifts.
And if you want to mail it, use email below to have me get you
my mailing address.

The Paypal email is

Best Regards- Ed

PS-- I really need help. Not a astronomocal amount, but fairly fast.
We never made anything on the 12ga FH work and research.
The little coming from sale of our 585 brass, dies,
barrels, etc, we try to pay to the places, where the money
is owed, for getting them made..Ed

(.375 member)
24/09/15 07:00 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH.
Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight.

Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga
sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in
sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in
sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die
and punch it back out.

And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads,
You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders.
We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where
we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large
diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers.
But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17
type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17.
RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control
speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle
powders with all the deterrent on the outside.

There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes
RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available
for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed
as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17.
Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there,
that Nitrochemie made..

Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17.
I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140
into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work.
And guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy, slow powder, slug loads,
even though not having IMR 4759....Ed

(.375 member)
24/10/15 02:43 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case,

Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from.
He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458.
There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat.

Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock.
He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt.

We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really
long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are
using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work.
One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions
made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter
and a 1.60" diameter receivers.

And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has
these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with
another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single
stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand,
we have barrels....Ed

(.375 member)
10/11/15 06:31 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak,

Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double
as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than
the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot.
Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around

Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE
in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock.
Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail
like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture.
The scope rail is a piccatiny type.

The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil
block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole
Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag.

About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the
sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening
is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig
with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old
extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom.
When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind
the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat.
The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!!
Just keep on building...Ed

(.400 member)
10/11/15 07:11 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thank you for posting on here Ed & thanks for your help with my 12bore & 8bore loads to !

I think that Mec sizer idea is sweet to, thanks for that !

I have a few of those Enfields (P14's here) in the draw some already sporterizied (nice trick on the mag welding), I just hate that safety & the lack of nice stocks for them, also now days only want my over 45's in SXS !

(.375 member)
20/11/15 02:29 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Thankyou, yes I like the MEC sizer, makes cases better than new.

Richards in California makes good laminated stocks for Enfields.

The stocks I like best and I'm not a fancy stock guy, are the

Hogue stocks, and their hollow butt is easy to put weight into

for our heavier recoiling cartridge. Filled full of rubber coated

steel balls.. That is the old computer mouse balls.

Now they are not made specifically for Enfields, but ones for long

action Howa/Vanguard/SW1500, fits good with a little extra work.

And there are many pillar bedded ones for sale on Gun Broker. Ed

(.375 member)
10/12/15 07:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by
a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb
stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed

About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,.
It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long.
With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc.
Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70.
One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with
Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel,
to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case
that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet.
Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel.
Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887.
Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing..

In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy.
By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud....
Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site.

Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields.
On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down
and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of
weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight.
Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight
like a compact UTG sight...Ed

(.375 member)
25/01/16 02:04 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''..
That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever.

Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized
bridges of Enfields, and it works on other rear bridges also. I like peep
sights the best for most shooting. You can get them with flat bottoms
also for bridges that are flat on top.

Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock..

On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander
die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always
felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then roll
crimping the same area of the case.shortens case life.

So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of
of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small
amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads,
with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less
work that has to be done in the press ... Ed

(.375 member)
12/02/16 08:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding
a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with.
This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps.

Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN.
Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our
585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are
shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load..

Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy,
the second they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier .
AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE.
Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for 585HE..

Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it,
chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle
with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to
put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed

(.375 member)
17/03/16 06:08 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double.
I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns.

The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we
we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked
in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close
that we have, is the Magtech.

Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks
real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel,
soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE.

We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel,
for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough.

Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn
set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil
reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed

Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver
rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have;
Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed

Bertrams Is going to make the long 12ga FH drawn cases, contact him
and maybe get in on the first run if want to make gun for them. Ed

(.375 member)
07/04/16 04:38 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A fellow PM'd me about sabots and I can't get return answer to go through.

Please email me. Ed .

(.375 member)
14/04/16 12:43 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard,
Kind of a neat suppressor,

Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH.

Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect
break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it.

Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up..

Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc,
with a variety of bullets..Ed

(.375 member)
12/05/16 08:03 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH.

Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days
for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases

Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in..
It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt
further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case.
Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.Ed

(.375 member)
18/06/16 07:03 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with
locking on plastic bases securely on slugs.
Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores.

Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE.

Here is another view of the great camo job on the
585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed

(.375 member)
07/07/16 06:39 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

About the local fellow here making 375 wildcat with our 585 case-

Hello Mr. Hubel,

We just got back on Saturday from competing at the King of 2 Miles Match in New Mexico.

We won! I came in first shooting my rifle (the one I brought over and showed you),

chambered in .375 Lethal Magnum, the round I designed based off of your case.

Iím attaching a bunch of pictures, feel free to post any of them that you want.

I do have one picture of the screen of the camera system looking at the 2500-yard target.

The hit farthest to the left and the hit farthest to the right were my 1st and 2nd shots.

Iím getting more interest in this cartridge now that the results

from this match are spreading across the web.

Happy 4th!

Take care,

Mitchell Fitzpatrick

Lethal Precision Arms



Will have pics soon, his case is close to 375 Warlord case

with a shorter neck, and longer to shoulder.

Got guys getting 585HE cases, they all think we have

''the'' case to wildcat... Ed

(.375 member)
25/07/16 10:43 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver

wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup.

Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has.

Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada.

It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and [blank],

by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a

Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported

the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB.

That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The

2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made,

from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right.

He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod..

Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED

(.375 member)
08/08/16 07:40 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with

Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell cases done.

Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims.

Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email ----- ......

Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal.......

.375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets.

Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel,

Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms

muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make

these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting..

Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target,

a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit.

The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps).

Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong.

The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed

(.375 member)
02/10/16 08:33 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan

Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case.

Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering

for our case as it came from production line,.

I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots.

We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE.

Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted

a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and

handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight,

Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat

375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed

(.375 member)
07/01/17 04:40 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in
a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job.

Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book
published in Oct, now out for sale,

We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE.
The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different
shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch
guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases,
testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile
shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case,

Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed
A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then
pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks.

I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases.

When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered,
held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE
the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight.

So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length,
below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press,

Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread,
reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up,

After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy)
bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated
perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating
bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items.

These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice
bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies.
Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate.

OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another
bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more.

All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide,
for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed

(.400 member)
07/01/17 08:38 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Cool to see Ed, you deserve the recognition !

And folks said I was crazy when I made a NEF in 500 3 1-4in NE, but boy did that thing have recoil in full loads !!

(.375 member)
01/02/17 08:16 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in

Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture

Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that

are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind

from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on

another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere,

We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with

lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700,

Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed

to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are

at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed

(.375 member)
12/03/17 10:54 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE

they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from

ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be

over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load..

Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left.

Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet.

Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock.

So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600.

Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die,

test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs.

When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys

Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys,

Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for

our bigger case .Ed

(.375 member)
21/04/17 02:39 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Anyone wanting to build 4 bore I got barrel to sell, 300 bucks,all

chambered for ours and Ken Owen's 4 bore case. Pm if interested.

And I know guy who has 4 bore cases and loading deal to sell.Ed

(.375 member)
25/04/17 04:59 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases
necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed

Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting
with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case.
Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured.
Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The
3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture,
1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA.

416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action,
470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416..
Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel
to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs.
A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit.

Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once,
next to bmg case we make it from and as we
improve wildcatting process next few weeks
some specs may make small changes, now from
base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed..

Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE
He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info.
We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, ,
Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes,
PM or email. ph 989-644-5228..

Here are final specs for 416 HE.
Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" ,
length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed

(.375 member)
26/06/17 08:00 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and
410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases.
They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with
our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have
RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE,
410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc..

Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original
BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have
enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure,
in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting
work set up so we can do at least hundred a month.
We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs.....
And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers.

Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch.
Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could,
the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr..
Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg
cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 ..

Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul
Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in
375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )...
It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide.

Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards,
weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio.
Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE
Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed

(.400 member)
26/06/17 04:15 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

What's the lever gun that the .585 is made for? (Mentioned a special short case?)

(.375 member)
30/06/17 07:10 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Model 71 Win and 86 Win and Henry steel frame

45-70 might work, and strong pump shotgun actions. Ed

(.375 member)
23/07/17 07:58 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on
last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324.
They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case....

The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one,

has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture,

on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed..

Shooters talking more now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected.
Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case proportions, too fast of
powders, and the debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below..
My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed.

(.375 member)
05/09/17 03:49 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case
made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed

Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right..

Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass,

A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those .....

(.375 member)
09/10/17 05:59 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load......

Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision...

Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475,

bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started

and is checking on better powder, Ed...........

(.375 member)
11/11/17 10:58 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots

& slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber

in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't

something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or

get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and

our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed,

which gives 50% more energy...

585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light.....

Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun,

Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed

(.375 member)
12/01/18 09:18 AM
Re: 12GA From Hell

Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making

our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed

We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action

between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE,

375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without

having to do extreme rebating of the rim.

Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc ,

that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove.

There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have

1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed..

This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make

them we can give the steps involved...Ed.

(.375 member)
12/02/18 11:28 PM
Re: 12GA From Hell

For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems ..
Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416....

We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375...
CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr

Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer,
did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per
side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k..