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Got some testing done with 12GA FH using 730 gr Dixie Terminator hard slugs..First the gun is 25 lb built on a Savage 210 action, heavy barrel 31 in long.Stock is full of lead shot and epoxy in the butt section.. We got 2700 fps top speed with TERMINATOR lead slugs.No leading..All shooting done with one case to see how they hold up,over 2 dozen firings and no resizing needed on the bottom 2/3 of the case yet, only size the top 1/3 to grip bullet..cases fall out of chamber, and I have a minimum 12 gauge chamber as it is tight fit to get regular 12ga shot shell in it.Cases are made from BMG brass that we put Rims on.Uses BMG primer.John at Bridger made the rims, and put them on. Loads done so far with 730 gr Terminator-- 230 gr HBMG---1550 fps 280 ge HBMG---2000 fps---21k load 260 gr W860---2200 fps 300 gr W860---2400 fps---27k load 250 gr 7383---2560 fps---35k load..slight comp. 260 gr Magpro-2430 fps 300 gr Magpro-2700 fps---35k load-11,800 ft lbs. As this crappy weather allows, Will test 750 gr Bridger bullet; and A Barnes 3/4 oz sabot(should get 4 grand). Maybe we can find a way to get a thick walled reciever done to put the Savage bolt, bolt carrier, trigger etc on,with slightly larger barrel thread..Then it would have safety margin for 50-55k loads.. The 3 lug bolt will hold if in thicker reciever...It is a real super smooth operating action. Rob on AR got his going also. His action is a Borchardt falling block.He got 750 gr Bridger over 3000 fps, 15000 ft lbs energy.He can run full pressures as action was made for 50 cal BMG.Ed Hubel |
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Wow. |
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But can you hit the side of the barn with it. Colorado |
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We got it through the wires on the chrono at 20 ft.Muzzle blast could knock small barn down. back stop is a big banded pallet of slabwood about 6 ft through and it shakes when those slugs impact. Did testing with 3/4 oz Barnes sabots, got out at about 3900 fps, using 300 gr of H-335 ball powder.Ed. |
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This is really just smokeless version of the old BP bore guns. They were king in their day. Exactly what creature on the plant needs this cannon? And how many bearers are needed to carry it for you? Colorado |
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Gun handles nice, has good balance.Very good for stopping dangerous game.And making holes in target easy to see without a scope. Tailgunner came down today and fired off a few rounds,and did it easy.And he is a smaller guy than me by 90 lbs.Ed. |
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Ed: I have been following this development for years, originally over on AR. Good to see it reach completion. Many of these "hare-brained schemes" never make it past the drawing board. Congratulations, mate! BTW, you are obviously nuts, however the symptoms are shared by many of us here! |
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Marrakai--Thanks..We tested 750 gr Bridger hollow base brass bullet got it to 2520, at about 33k psi. We checked bolt lugs and seats on Savage and no signs of setback.Ed. |
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I know about those holes, my 12 bore punches those too. I shot my 458 cal and the 12 bore into the same target, it was laughable to see the difference. Who says size doen't matter! Colorado Bigger is always better! |
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How about some pictures? Colorado |
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You really do have some awsome #'s there. Would love pix the only thing that keeps that thing from knocking you down has to be the wheight, and the four guys holding the gun up>>> sounds like fun... Recoil Builds Character!!! |
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Here is pictures of cases-1st is our case next to 12ga plastic case-2nd is BMG case with rim put on next to fired case, fireformed from first case, and with 730 gr Dixie Terminator slug loaded in it.Ed |
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Here is pic of my gun and one below of Rob's-- |
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WOW |
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Here is picture of the Savage 210 three lug bolt, next to an Enfield bolt to show the size and it can be used for NE Cartridges.Got a fellow who is going to use one to make 700NE. Rims are .880 same as 12ga diameter and 700NE base is .780 in where our 12ga base is .801..Ed. |
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Check out www.accuratereloading.com for loads for the .700 Nitro Express in a bolt gun. They ran 1,000gr. bullets up to 2,450fps but wwere plagued with hang-fires until they used 2gr. of bullseye to kick the charge off better. They also used .50BMG brass, I believe. : Be carefull in your loading and start quite conservativley. |
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They used regular 700NE cases with mickey mouse primers, which can hangfire without bullseye.. With our case built from bmg we have a primer 3 times as powerful, and it starts 230-320gr of slow powder fine.My 700HE a long straight belted case, soon to be tested is built from bmg brass and won't have no hangfires, and it will add at least 500 more fps, than the NE.Ed |
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OK so, in your words, they used mickey-mouse cases, well that makes you even as you are using mickey-mouse bullets - 260gr.- my word! That's too light for my .375 let alone a .73 cal rifle. At least they used 1,000gr. bullets. ;-) : You say YOUR ctg. is going to get 500fps higher than the 700 Nitor Express?? You're saying you are going to make or beat 2,950fps with a 1,000gr. bullet? That will be something. I'm champing at the bit to see that. |
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Daryl--my 12ga bullets are 730gr-- The 260 grain figure is in the range od powder weights.One load Rob had was 2000 gr.The only light bullet I used in 12ga was a 3/4 oz sabot just to test it for somebody.Be shooting heavier in couple weeks. 860 gr for somebody, 1100gr later on.... I used that mickey mouse term because of the marginal primer they have in the 700 NE relative to the amount of powder.Case is fine, just primer isn't big enough.....And everybody has trouble without fast starting powder, which is a hell of a way to have to do it. I am telling everybody that has 700NE to put a pocket in it for bmg primer.They are only little over 20 cents and it seems out of place to by a 700NE case for 60-100 bucks and not use a big enough primer. Here we have my lowly Savage at moderate, medium, pressures. outdoing all the NEs, Nyatis, TREXs, JDJs, etc..And My 700HE(3.87 in long belted staight case made from bmg, bmg primer) will be on BMG rated action and it will get a 1000 grainer over 3000 fps.Ed. |
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Ed, Party on! How are the bore guns coming along? Scott |
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Scott--Got 2 barrels for 2 bore.Ernie should be making 4 bore barrels by summer.Got 4 bore bullets, probably just use shot loads in two as smoothbore(will ream out the too tall and too fast of twist rifling).Got to get action.I will test 4 bore in state arms action for load development.Ed. |
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WOW - not for me. I've gotten away from most of the big kickers these last few years. I've only a wildcat .458 and .375 for large bore smokeless ctgs. now. I expect soon to re-barrel a 4140 actioned Sharps to .50 Alaskan in the near future. : The .17 cal small cases are much nicer to shoot. |
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Daryl--Recoil isn't bad, as gun has good weight and balance-It don't kick any worse than a ten pound 458 Lott,with full loads.When tailgunner fired it, muzzle only went up 6 inches.Found a long shotcup that holds 2 oz of buckshot.We will test that in coupleb weeks.Ed. |
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Shot 18 buckshot in shotcup, about 700 gr.Case 60% full of powder, a 16ga wad on top of shot in cup. All nice tight fit. Pattern at 25 ft was 3 ft due to wad and rifling..Good redneck defense load?? Your a redneck when all your bigbores are singleshot and your safari car is a double...Ed |
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Here is picture the case we fired 36 times, sectioned.. No thinning to be seen by eye or measured by calipers..Cases super and will go couple hundred firings at our pressures..And they have big primer so no misfires or starter powders needed.Ed |
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Have a fella going to use gun like my 12GA FH to build 700NE..here is picture showing 700NE in the loading port.Ed |
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That's a pretty slick way to modify the 50 BMG to be a rimmed cartridge! That thing looks pretty awesome. |
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Karl suggested a double, one barrel smooth other rifled. Here is pic of a heavy spanish made one that may do the job. We are checking specs now.Ed |
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Ed, your making me nervous.. Good picture!!!!! |
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One fella who got some of our extra cases is going to use an AR-50 bolt action singleshot for our cartridge.neat idea.Ed. |
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Did more checking on Encore. They will work with a real heavy barrel and a weighted thumbhole buttstock.And long barrel to get weight and get the blast away from shooter. If I did one I'd make it 20 pounds at least. they will handle moderate pressure with heavy barrel, muzzle same size as breech, so that it will hold rifle type loadings.Ed. |
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Here is comparison picture of some cartridges-- 1st 700NE - 2nd our 12GA FH -- 3rd 700HE...Ed |
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You are a very sick man. |
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Had a question about costs per shot-- For me 5 buck per lb surplus powder, hard slug 70 cents, primer 24 cents, adds up to $1.15 per shot.20 buck, canister powder makes it $1.75. Not bad considering the power we are getting.Ed |
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Tested a 870gr hardened slug Greg Sappington makes. Got it to 2300 fps. Lightened it to 730 gr got it over 2500 with no leading.Greg likes that. Here is picture of 3 with one loaded in case. I loaded long to get powder space, but you wouldn't have to.Ed |
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Fellow from Greece,Lefteris, developed this brass 12ga slug for both rifled and smoothbores.Uses sabot asit is .629, and 12ga is .729.He will get me a few to speed test.Ed |
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I have figured out that all bullets for 500 S&W will fit in the sabot Barnes uses in the 3/4 oz sabot load that Federal sells.Lighter 505 bullets will work also. And the front section of a 50 bmg bore rider bullet, it is 2nd in picture in the sabot. It is 470 grains, really streamlined.And you can buy them by the ton, just cut back portion that is .510 diameter off, and that leaves front part for a .500 dia bullet, 1.5 inches long..Good for armor plated chucks.First in picture is original sabot with Barnes 3/4 oz hollowpoint slug.3rd is the 900gr 600NE slug in my sabot made from heavy shotcup. 4th on the miniature digital scale is an older Barnes .580 cal saboted slug expanded, it's 435gr.Ed. |
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Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water. Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint. First pic is pail with crimped on top. Pail full and has filler spout capped. Second pic,impact with water atomising, and pail blowing apart.In the next small fraction of a second is third after impact with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure down, has bent top of steel frame shelf. Same blast put jug pieces all over. Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed |
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In reply to: Ed I am interested in what you discovered about this shotgun. I checked the website and they do not list any specs that the shotgun can be had with a rifled barrel. Is it your intention to have them make a special order, or modified somewhere else? Thanks. |
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That gun only comes smoothbore and its barrels are too thin at muzzle for our loads.We are checking on others.Ed |
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I picked up a 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.24 in shorty barrel. Added weight and thumbhole stock. Gun weighted to 15 lbs so far. I got 600gr hard slug to 1650-1700 so far, and shoots easy. Got 1 1/2 inch thick pad.Working up different loads.Should get over 2000. Cases eject easy,no resizing needed on bottom half of case,action opens easy, no evidence of binding.Started case 3.2 inch, settled on case length of 3.15-- Chamber being full size max 12ga size expands top half of case more than my minimum chamber in Savage does, so little more effort needed to size.Our case, though many times stronger than regular 12ga cases is thinner at mouth, so that is why I used tight chamber on Savage.Still can't get used to mickey mouse short barrel. Anyone know of a genius who could make long alloy barrel with pivot mounted? Cases can be 3 inches on up to our length, and work.Ed |
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We got 600 gr slug to 2000 fps in NEF.Used ball powder load. Case length of maximum 3.07 works. Anyone using our style case should also put in adapter for shotgun primer. Save a lot of work beefing up hammer speed and strength.Ed |
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The Savage is perking along.Got a 600gr hard slug out at 3000fps, using a little faster ball powder. I think 14,000 ft lbs is possible.Ed. |
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Being some guns(NEF) need to much work to fire bmg primers, it easier to do the following with adapter bushings. Here is picture of cases for primer comparisons.1st is regular bmg primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer. 3rd is adapted to large rifle primer. Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer you have to deepen the original primer pocket a little, then thread and screw in a bushing.These two primers give about 100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed. |
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Testing RL-25 in Savage, with long case--Got 730 gr hardened cast slug to 2400 plus with 300 gr RL-25. Full load. Bottom of cases don't need sizing. Got a 600 gr out at 3250, 14,000 ft lbs.Bottom of cases need slight resizing. pushing 40,000 psi. Ball powder load.Savage extracted cases on that load easy.Ed |
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Jeez, who is holding the rifle when it goes off? Must be a handful. Curl |
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Shot NEF with the RL-25 load, 600 gr.Got 3 shots in 4 inches at 50 yds, with aperture sights and my bad eyes.Got barrel extension made and will get it on in next couple weeks. NEF and Original Sav barrel have same twist and grooves, so I am putting heavy part of left over barrel to good use.I hate shorty barrels.Ed |
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We are getting a big replica 1887 12ga levergun to test cases with. It's modern forged heat treated action, and will go high pressures.Ed |
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I'm building a 450 NE on that Zabala action at the moment. But that just looks pussy in comparison. I am in awe! |
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Zabala E213 Magnum is nice gun. Who sells them in US? We got 1887 12ga levergun here. It 2 & 3/4 inch chamber. We will test with our case shortened and Rocky Mtn cases.Here is pic. Ed |
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Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887. That's 624 grains worth. Used short 2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine. Used fast ball powder, getting about 1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr hardened slug got 1700.That is in short 20 in barrel. Comparing this short case with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there is an inch difference in length of powder column so it takes faster powder with 10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine. It takes as much pressure as my Savage in its present form.Ed |
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I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches long are for use in NEF and shortened in 1887. These cases have shotgun primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads reliably,like cases with bmg primers. Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs. So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but that expansion and resizing will ruin cases in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases. I now testing AA1680 Ball andRE-7 they look good. Have got loads with 2 wads in the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and expect it to get velocity we want in NEF. Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just using less wad column.Ed |
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Testing Rocky Mtn cases in NEF.Got 1850 fps with 125 gr AA 1680 and 132gr of RE-7. Cases are 2.9 after 3 firings. AA 1680 load had .135 card wad and 2 1/2 in lubed felt wads, and RE-7 load had same card and a 1/2 and a 1/4 lubed wad. Re-7 less dense. Base expansion ahead of thick base was .002 to .003 and resized without huge effort. The base is .300 thick, case has shotgun primers. By the way I put primers in with bmg primer post. Work good. Now will cut back some cases for the 87 levergun.About same loads used in NEF minus wads should do. Will get little less velocity in 20 in bbl. But I will have loads figured out for a bunch of guys here and in Australia. I also feel now that have I found loads that get velocity without a huge expansion, to the turned cases that good low base plastic will do the same velocity, in strong alloy barreled guns. Ed |
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Good news-First tested 87 levergun. Using Rocky Mtn cases cut back.Cut case back to length that feeds from magazine, 2.45 in. That is about max length of any loaded and crimped 2.75 case.Got 600gr to 1700 with 20 in barrel.120 gr of RE-7.No squib loads. Cases eject good, expanded a little ahead of base .003, resize ok.Now the second good news. Seeing as how these non traditional powders used in shotgun didn't expand the turned cases a lot( in our cases made from bmg brass it took over 10 loads to expand bases enough to need sizing)............ I figured time to check plastic cases. Plastic cases took the same load as turned brass in the NEF.And 100 gr RE-7 in 1887 and we are keeping it down in original barreled 1887 due to plastic cases expanding just ahead of the rim in two spots due to extractor cutouts. New barrel will solve that as we will make cutouts different. Up to 140 gr RE-7 in NEF. Tested Fed,Win,Rem, highbase, lowbase, etc. Lowbase extracts easiest. You who want to get the power that NEF and 1887 are able to deliver use good plastic cases as a way to get started with 600 gr slugs.You don't need heatreated for those speeds just hard cast from wheel wts.. Win AA 2 & 3/4 best for 1887. It is lowbase and easiest to resize. To get potential(extra 200 fps) it needs a long barrel.They made long barrels in original. I used federal 3 inch case in Nef.By the way modern plastic cases have steel bases with copper plating so they are strong. I tried one of the fast shotgun powders, that previously expanded the brass turned case to much, in plastic cases in NEF and at 50 gr case was sticking and had expanded quite a bit, but same case with 140gr RE-7 popped out easy, and resized easy.Ed |
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Tried one more 1050gr slug in the Savage. Got 2600 fps and put a slight crack in the stock.Repaired ok for my lesser loads.Will whittle out a thumbhole stock for it sometime from one of big blanks I have..Ed. |
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I'm doing a long chamber in the NEF. Just lengthening the present 3 inch chamber .The base size of the regular chamber in NEF is max dimensions, and in my Savage I have a smaller minimum size. It wworks grear with long case. So for brass use in the NEF I honed out a base die bigger to match NEF size, then it won't over work brass and it maybe only will need sizing once in every 20 shots, and with the proper fit resizing will be easier.And my other base die does Savage.Same top die will do both top halves. Ed |
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I got the hammer on 87 beefed up to fire big primers. Still testing plastic and turned cases in 87. We are testing small primers with 10gr starter powder(Blue Dot) and RE-7 and 15.Plastic cases max is 90gr RE-7 with 10 gr starter, turned brass case 110gr RE-7 10 gr starter. WE had to go to starter powder as we was getting delayed ignition and squib loads. Testing the cases,plastic and brass with small primers and starter powder ... A big find. IE, we can't do this for reliable ignition if the cases are ballon head, whether plastic or brass.The cases must have the area between side and the pprimer at least .200 thick.One reason is strength. And some plastic I have measured is only about .060 thick there and the protrusion in the center for primer is .140 above that thickness.. So 10 gr of starter powder is in a groove so to speak and not on top of primer!!! That isn't good. I cut the cases off at the brass base, poured in 10 gr of flake powder and saw how it laid in the case. Nice thing is that a most brands of cases are thick enough, like Win AAs. So far RE-15 and Blue Dot starter looks very good, and easy on cases.Velocity as good as RE-7.Will keep testing and I ran out of RE-12 and the shops have no more, So it will be RE-15 which I think turning out best, or RE-7 in smaller amounts.Ed. |
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Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems. Ignition is instant with regular primers. Don't need Blue Dot starter powder. Plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a nice working roll crimper attachment for drill press for crimping slugs. That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp. In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr. That's max as you must leave room for about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases may only hold 75 grains max due to the case construction.Powder is less dense than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel. In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6 inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps. Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to case construction. Cushion is a half inch felt wad or equivalent. Both lengths start down and go up if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long. This powder being faster than RE-15 you must have a little cushion in the way of felt wads or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15 a card wad works ok as powder started slower. The powder burning must build pressure to open crimp with out a high pressure spike. This bulky powder with reliable ignition is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15 loads pressure tested.Ed |
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Now these loads are for only heavy barreled steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12, or like my Savage with heavy barrel added. I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and it will be long.There are some turn bolt locking lug pumpguns that would work with heavy barrels.There is a large 12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported. This week if weather allows(no rain) I will be firing first test loads of my 700HE long belted case.Ed. |
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I want to see this scaled up to take 700HE, 12ga FH, 700NE, 50bmg, Rob's 700, etc, or even 4bore, 8bore,20mm, 900HE.Anyone else interested jump in. Were going to give it a try. Ed. |
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Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3" loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive, all alloy steel construction, tested to about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their site shows testing at the Italian proof house of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed |
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I get questions about whether the IMR 4759 loads aren't to high pressure.Even for NEF. Well in Nef the REM factory Buckhammer slug load, expands the base of the case more than my 90gr, 4759 load. And I get more speed, in the same kind of Rem case.And pressure testing will tell us for sure what we have wrought..Ed. |
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Hot Damn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases. Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with 90 gr of 4759. We have a winner. Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi. tested with transducer test ing setup, in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+. Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr, that I figured with my math would have 15k psi.So my math and developement is OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic. Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759 will give slower time to peak pressure, thus will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads I fired, that expanded cases as much or more tham our 4759 loads.Ed |
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Keep up the good work, Ed. Makes my eyes water just reading your posts..... |
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Some research. Anyone with a Mauser converted to 12ga shotgun can fire our 4759 loads. One was the GEHA, other REMO. The locking lug for bolt is the rear safety lug and if you wanted an extra lug do an Ed on the bolt handle base to make contact between bolt handle and bolt handle recess.They are not long enough for our full length case, but came with 2 3/4" chamber and magazine.Were 2 shot large ring converted military mausers.Studying this gun lead me to the idea that a fancy 12ga with 3" chamber could be made by the same thing that Germans did to the Mauser to make GEHA. Just use a S&L, Colt Sauer, etc, with rear locking lugs. Grind out inside diameter of action from rear reciever forward so 12ga case will feed, Rear of bolt will still center ok as lugs and metal are there. The silver solder combination guide extension to support 12ga case on the left side of bolt, and put extractor on right side. Like a Sako or whatever.Face off the recess on front off bolt flat, Put in 12ga barrel with chamfers to clear extractor.A 788 Rem may work, at least with a 2.75" case. For repeater action, Open mag well to hold a single stack of 1 or 2 12ga cases.Fancy gunwrighters badmouthed the GEHA, but geese hunters just loved them, as they handled heavy loads fine. Ed. |
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Here is picture of top part of the first scale-up model, next to smaller Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed trough. It is aluminum just for a model. It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE, etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on mill table to do the machining.Next machining will be the hole and slot down through the action for breech block and hammer to slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to get some tooling.I had none when we set up vertical mill, and have to get more.The action model also will be narrowed up when finished, and contoured to look as good as the Wickcliffe.Ed. |
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Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case in a temperary chamber to see if hammer with beefed up spring would fire bmg primers.I scalloped out the back of the action so 12ga cases would feed into the action and temp chamber They fired ok. Bur the extra stiff spring makes it hard to cock. We will have to work on that.The original Wickcliffe action that we want to scale up is tall enough so that when breech block is lowered the block clears the bottom a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber. So in the scale up we need to just add a a little width for wider breech block, and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the sides thick for strength.Ed |
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In response to guys who can't find 4759 we will test powders in the same speed range. Tested 2 fast stick powders, 4198 and 4227. Both didn't ignite good with small primers in plastic cases. Another I plan on trying VV110, when I find some. It is bulkier and slight chance may work like 4759. Ed |
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Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr 4759 and 460 grains of buckshot, 14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef, pattern huge due to rifling, even with shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus, and went through 1/8 steel on end of stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy. In smoothbore be a real hairy load. With three 3.5" plastic cases with 100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad, a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF chamber lengthened for our longer brass case. A nice long barrel we'd have 2050 plus. On the scaleup model solved the hard cocking problem by usinf NEF hammer mounted in a lengthened breech block. It pivots h\behind the toggle pin and is taller so it cocks easy even though it has doubled the springs to fire big primers.Ed |
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Here is pictures of the breech, lever, linkage, etc, set up on a block to get the geometry for the scaleup model working ok.And setup measurements to make the breech hole in the action, in right place.Also used this model to get hammer and trigger set up to ride on the breech block. With a strong hammer and trigger in the right place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the lever pivots on. The actions being bigger will be wider than the levers;So the space on the pivot will be taken up by the Ruger style extractor on the left side and a spacer on the right side. Spacer also acts as a breech block stop at the bottom of the breech travel.So to get block stopped at right position for the diameter of the case and feed trough, we adjust spacer size. Ruger extractors from GP changed a little bit will do.Ed. |
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Founf info an a double that would work for making 12GA FH. It's a Spanish 10 ga on an 8 ga frame that we think Stoeger and maybe others imported years ago. It says No. 6 HG on trigger guard. It is over 2 & 3/4" across outside of both barrels, chopperlump barrel pivots, with heavy locking lugs, and A purdey style third fastener.Top lever. Barrels are big enough to use as monoblocks to screw in heavy 12ga barrels, with same size threads as my Savage and it being a huge action could handle same loads as the Savage.Like 12-17,000 ft lbs. Ed. |
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A SxS double 12GA FH ?! NOW you're talking! |
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Here is sectioned action with parts in. Original action that had defects that I sectioned down the middle..I ground out the top to allow case to set higher, representing a the taller action that we will have due to larger diameter cases. That lever in the picture is the lever we will use with longer stroke. Also in the action layout is the breechblock, hammer, trigger with a 12GA FH in front, all in to check layout. This lever looks to be easier to fit and shape to bigger action and stock, with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil. Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed |
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Double pumper 870 big bore. 20 shots Karl would love this with 600 gr, 4759 loads, if they'd let him have one. Fires both or one at a time. Classified on THR.Ed |
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I will be posting more research on this thread about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the 12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of some other cartridges I have with some of mine. 1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK 4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH, 8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed |
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Hey Ed, please don't take our lack of replies as a lack of interest, or a lack of praise for your effort and enthusiasm on the jumbo 12. We're just speechless...! Keep it coming! |
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Here is pic of the finished breech block model for the scaleup action.You can see hammer and trigger mounted in the rear of the block.Ed |
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Another experiment in shotgun/rifle realm is 28GA From Hell. 28ga is .550 bore and with 550Mag barrels & bullets being made it is a natural. Have one on bolt gun ready to chamber.Chamber still will fire shorter cases..Ed |
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Man, I gotta agree with Marrakai on this. This is textbook how-to stuff. |
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Tested AA2015- VV N130- Norma200- in plastic cases with small primers. They don't fire dependably. Sqibs and misfires. Have VV N110 ordered to test.Have had inquiries about getting our cases shortened for strength and they want to put in small primer. They can be adapted with bushing. Ok but must use 4759 or fast shotgun powders, if they are used by themselves. Any slower powders, a fast shotgun starter powder is needed. My testing shows RE-15 with 10gr of Blue Dot starter is best of all we tested in slower powders for shorter cases.Ed |
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Here is picture of the first falling block model of aluminum, with a roughed out stock to see how it looks. Action is a rough model. It shoulders nice, and lever is inlet into pistol grip, so you can't get banged up fingers with the big cartridges it is designed for, like levers that stick down at the guard.Ed |
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Here is pic of action model with lever open and the breech block down. Also the action will have a slot in the rtop rear for a top tang of whatever length you need. Can even add a long tang for tang sights.Ed |
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Asked about using 900 gr saboted bullets in 3" plastic cases in regular barrels with 4759 or RL-15 and starter powder. With bullets that heavy you'd have too high of pressures with 4759 for plastic cases. Possibly could do it with RL-15 and starter powder in plastic, but only in heavy barreled like NEF. But the 600 gr Dixie is still the best for most uses in plastic. A NEF and brass RMC cases would handle 900 gr Saboted bullet with RL-15 and starter powder. Start at 80 gr Rl-15 and go up if cases don't expand to much to resize.Ed |
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Here is pic of a double that I will put barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech section for the monoblock. This one will be for 28GA FH. May get another same size for my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures with these.....I am trying to find a bigger, heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want heavier one so as to run pressures like my Savage as a minimum.Ed. |
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My Zabala 3 1/2" 12 guage was just reproofed to 3500 bar when it went in after being sleeved to 450#2 NE if that helps for a heavy action. Regards |
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Yes that's what I want to do also go smaller with 28ga and my 510 so as to run 50k pressures.Zabalas are nice.Ed |
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Had question about locking RMC cases onto lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the grooves well as sharp bend works thick mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure. Then I use a die with slightly more taper and swage the mouth into slug, like the fit you get with bottleneck cases. Same deal works with our long cases made from BMG brass.Ed |
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Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows it works with small primers like the 4759 powder does, in plastic cases. Perfect ignition on first bunch of loads with 600gr slugs.Ed |
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More VV N-110 testing that we got done. Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps. In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus. In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus. All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested. So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun powders, and much safer to work with for regular primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed |
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Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759 and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers, that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed. Will do heavier slugs and RMC brass cases. Ed |
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Tested 730 gr with 7383,Perfect ignition. Plastic 3" cases, different brands. 130gr gives 1650 plus fps. Extracts easy. Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good. Have question about different cases and dies. The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have a real thick base. They are not a thin headed, balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick enough for regular 12ga wads. But in a break action the 3" plastic cases with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC. 3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3" And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power, which I could do as far as the firing process, the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to damage rim. A turned rim will not take what a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed |
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Finished test of 7383/870 slug in NEF. Tested 870gr hardened slug with 118gr of 7383, got 1500 plus. Perfect ignition. Cases ejected easy, and has same base expansion as the 600 gr slug/140gr 7383. Will have these pressure/velocity tested in few weeks.Ed |
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Tested a 750 gr banded solid, grooves .009 smaller than land diameter and got same velocity as with lead slug weighing the same at same pressure. Other banded brass slugs with groove debth same as land raised pressures compared to lead. Got 2700 easy with 750gr, in long case in Savage.Ed |
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Quote: Whaa...! 2700 fps with 750gr projectile?! That's over twelve thousand foot-pounds! Oops! Sorry...! Gotta go change my shorts...! |
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Marrakai- That's the same as max I got with 730 gr hardened Dixie lead slug. Finally a brass solid I really like as far as being able to load it same as lead or soft jacketed.Ed |
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The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform. A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been viewed about 400,000 times in the forums we put it in.Ed |
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Anyone got any long 12ga rifled 30" plus barrels, 1.3" plus diameter. Barrel guy is shutting down and returning funds. Been waiting for 12ga heavy barrel for 87 levergun since last summer.Boy it is hard getting projects done.Ed |
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Here is a simple outline of what we've done with our project we call the 12GA From Hell. Some folks have asked us to do this. A. The idea for this and the name was by Robgunbuilder on the AR forum. We figured out how to make a long brass case, from BMG brass by machining rims and the case to screw them on. We ended up with case after mouth was annealed, fireformed, and expanded to 12ga, that was 3.85" long, with a big BMG primer. B. Rob put his in a big Borchardt falling block, a gun that can take full BMG type pressures. It had firing mechanision that fired primers ok. Example top load is a 1000gr turned brass slug at 3100 plus fps, and a 7/8oz 12ga sabot at 4300 fps. C. First of mine in a Savage 210 bolt shotgun with a heavy rifled 31" barrel. My loads in this were kept below 35,000 psi. Giving loads of 2700 fps with a 730 gr hard lead slug, and 3900 with 3/4oz sabot. Second gun was a NEF Ultra that I lengthened chamber to take long case. Top loads are 600gr hard slug at 2500 plus fps.Both Savage and NEF had to have firing mechanisions beefed up to fire BMG primers. D. We cut cases back to use in 3" chambers but all guns have to have beefed up hammers, etc, to fire the big BMG primers.The BMG primers fired the slow rifle powders ROB and I were using very well, no misfires. So tried 3" RMC brass cases, regular plastic cases, our cut back cases with primer bushings, all with smaller regular rifle or shotgun primers, that regular hammers or firing pins fire ok, and found out that our slow rifle powder loads wouldn't fire reliably with small primers. The slow powders in large diameter cases needed BMG primers to work. So to use small primers- E. We went to much more research. We found that slow powders could be fired with a 10 gr of a fast shotgun starter powder, under the slow powder, using small primers. This concept has beeen used in NE cases. We also searched for rifle or pistol powders slower than shotgun powders, that would fire with small primers and no starter, that didn't up peak pressure to fast as we increased loads to increase velocity. We didn't want to over expand RMC brass or blow out the rims on regular plastic cases We found three- IMR 4759, VV-N110, and 7383 surplus. These powders are easier to load for slugs without the problems of fast shotgun powders pushing up the peak pressures to quick, as you try to increase loads to up the velocity. We use a minimum thickness overpowder wad or other wads in the loads under the slugs as needed. We had lab test 4759 loads with 600gr slug and pressures were little less than the magnum REM Buckhammer factory loads, but we got 400 fps more velocity. The Buckhammer slug and locked on wad is about 600 gr.Both our tested loads and Rem loads are 3" plastic.Our loads are for heavy barreled guns only. IE; all slow powder loads whether with starter powder or 4759,N110, 7383, use heavy barrels, as the pressure curve is higher down the barrel and might split regular skinny shotgun barrels. F. We plan on heavy barrels for testing 1887 Win leverguns, for Mossberg 695 bolt guns, for various heavy double shotguns, for various O/U, for modern alloy guns, etc.We are helping to design a big falling block for 12ga diameter that can take high full load pressures, that is reasonably priced.. We plan on testing other powders, for use with small primers. We plan on setting up pressure testing barrel for the long 3.85" case, to test the whole range of slow powders and bullet weights, in the future. The testing lab now can only do 3" 12ga cases. We have found heatreated Dixie slugs that can take super velocities, we found brass slugs with relieved grooves that run same pressures as lead, or copper jacketed, at same velocities. We found 7383 powder pushes 870gr safely, full loads, in 3 inch plastic, RMC 3" brass, etc cases. This research and work is super great fun, we are glad to share.We will get pictures soon of the muzzle blast with long case, and pics of penetration tests. Ed |
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Found another powder that works with small primers in plastic and RMC cases. 600gr slug. It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load levels and velocities as 4759. My earlier report of 4227 not working was in error due to what looks like 4198 in a jug hand labeled 4227 I got in sale years ago. Greg told me 4227 worked for him so I got new jug, and saw the difference from jug I had. So slower than shotgun, powders that ignite properly; we have 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus, the latter a slow powder that works with real heavy slugs also. Ed |
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Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load. 870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could be put in REM plastic and keep length to what would feed from magazine of a 3" gun, after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress. 1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50% heavier than factory Buckhammer at little faster speed and at little less pressure. Ignition perfect, cases fall out. Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed |
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Ed, You mentioned a while ago that you were looking for a long 12 ga rifled barrel, I just imported one from Pac-Nor, I think you would probably know about them, they should be able to make them 30" + for you. I hope they weren't the barrel guys that returned your money! Regards, David. |
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I'm dealing with PacNor now. It was Bauska that closed up. They had better prices but the man is almost 90 years, times to retire.Ed |
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Finally able to make the longer barrel improvement on the 1887 12ga levergun....... Rifled and heavy and 31" long. After many months finally got a barrel.Ed |
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With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps, with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600. Expansion on cases show little more pressure as full loads of 4759 and 600gr. Ignition perfect with small primers. Ejects cases fine. Burns clean. Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier rifled barrel on to test. Ed |
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Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long brass case with big primer.I have NEF with extra hammer spring for big primer. Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case. Would do little more, extractor needs to be wider and set up positive. Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro. Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc. That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to 2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go light or heavy.Ed |
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More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in 3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227. I did the same. This compares to much lighter REM Buckhammer slug with more speed. Almost all the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards. I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87. Will be checking Mossy 395 for a guy who wants to put on a heavy barrel. Ed |
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Here is pic of 695 bolt action Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long rifled barrel for it. It has a recoil plate like Rem/Sav, and two rear bolt lugs..Ed |
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I tested in NEF 3" cases, Alliant 2400 with small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when case cooled there was majority of misfires and squib loads. Don't reccomend it. Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action GEHA with a heavy barrel like one I will put on it Make a good slug gun.Ed |
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The 12GA From Hell is now on Ammoguide, the last page of cartridge list.Ed http://ammoguide.com/?catid=611 |
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Saw info on a break action that would handle 12ga FH.It is Cole, with a strong top lock and real wide strong extractor.Ed |
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Tested 3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small primers. My chamber is long for our long brass case, so they work fine..... 600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227, got 2100. Same slug, 180 gr, 7383 surplus, got 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from 12ga plastic shotgun cases.Ed |
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Along with testing loads in 3.5" plastic, later tested same loads in 3" RMC brass cases; and with 600gr slug, same wt 4227 and 7383 surplus powders got same 2100 fps.I got a MEC Super Sizer coming to size base of plastic and RMC cases. Both are hard to resize with regular die, but this will save time and allow many more firings of the cases.Just got 3.5" plastic for dime each, and this sizer will allow as many firings as the RMC brass.Ed |
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You had that shoulder reconstruction yet, Ed? Hope you guys are having half as much fun making and shooting these things, as we are reading about it! |
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A bullet fella contacted me and he will make 750gr jacketed 12ga slugs for buck and a half. He uses Corbin equipment, and that is a very great price as others have quoted almost 50% more. Minimum order 500 bullets.He has to get couple pieces of punch and die tooling to make them .729" to fit most rifled barrels, and he will get tooling if we pay half, which is 300 bucks. I want to find 10 guys to put in 30 each plus order 50 or a hundred and we have him get tooling ordered. Contact me so I can see how many want to get in on the deal.Then after I tally everyone I will get back to you for the funds for dies for you to send the them to him..Here is pic of a sizer we got that does plastic cases back to factory specs in few seconds and allows 3 times more reloads. It will also do the RMC cases I have. No more cases sticking in dies, or spending 5 min to get them sized only half assed.ED. |
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Here is the Enfield I reamed out to feed 12 gauge and BMG size cases. I added two rear bolt locking lugs, one the huge bolt handle and another added that locks in rear bridge. The front lugs still contact on their top 40 %. This is concept from earlier shown Mauser shotgun conversions, where they were made from 98 Mausers, giving a bolt action 12ga.This one is chambered for my belted 700H 3.25" case, as a load developement test gun. Loads up to 825 gr at 2500. Ed |
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The three From Hell cartridges---- My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed |
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Quote: The 40mm Bofors Short? (...from hell?) |
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Not that big friend--A great name though- It is the 8GA From Hell, a real cartridge. 4.3 inch long brass case. 8 ga shorter plastic case, plan on in same chamber. The brass kiln gun case isn't as long as mine. Where do you find the rare 8 ga brass kiln gun cases. Looking now for guns or actions and barrels. I make it from 20mm Suzy brass(20mm Hispano Suiza), by putting on a 8ga size rim and reshaping like we did 12GA FH....Ed |
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8ga, we gonna do a couple, first one a test gun in an Enfield with rear locking lugs. All locking is in the rear, it is not exactly like my 700HE one, all lug seats gone in the front like a Mauser shotgun. May have a way to get barrels 'fast'--- fast being like 2 weeks, from the time I have money to do it. And only about 150 bucks each.......Am working on it. In pic you see long case sticking out of the action, a couple 8ga plastic cases, a couple of the 8ga kiln slugs, 3 oz and hardened. Am looking for a slug built like the Federal 10 ga one that has rounded nose and hollow base, that will fit bores tight. The barrels I am working deal on will be smoothbore.Ed |
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Howabout this Long Tom slug gun.....Ed |
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Got an 8ga barrel blank being made now, will be here end of the week.Found this info on plastic 8ga kiln gun loads, they load a frangible 710gr slug at 2300- for 8300ft lbs, load 1275gr hard slug to 1700, 8100 ft lbs. We will outdo those easy with our non-shotgun powder loads, in a heavy barrel.Ed |
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I've noticed none of these have sights or optics(at least in the pics)-is that still a pending development or just simply not necessary for the type of shooting you're doing? That Enfield action with the thumbhole stock is quite the setup. |
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Most get shot a lot in the rest for chrono and load development work. Then if any lathe work, chamber work, etc, has to be done, no sights in the way..Then I put on sights on. My 458HE in the Ruger77 has a scope, the 458HE in Enfield has aperture sight. these two my first wildcats from the 90s. Them my 12GA FH in Savage has aperture, the 12ga FH in Nef is aperture. My 585HE in Enfied is aperture, The Enfield with 700 nothing yet, the Enfield that I tested 550 mag in, no sights, and is getting rechambered to a 28GA FH( same bore as 550), The 1887 not yet. 4 other actions not yet barreled. You see why I have no time to chase wimmen...... as I do my own work.....Ed |
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OK, that explains it-I'd love to have the tools to do all the work myself(still toying with the idea of gettig a NEF and doing the work-have to convince the wife I need an "elephant gun"). Us shooters understand the need, but someone who only shoots rimfires doesn't see why I'd want a bigger gun than what I have. |
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Tested 35" smooth barrel in 1887. Got couple 1 oz foster slugs over 2400, with 110gr of 4227. 3" plastic case, regular primers. This is a heavy barrel for that type of load, don't do this in your 12ga skinny barrels. The 28GA FH cases on the way.Chambering bolt gun for it now..Ed |
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In the 87 long smooth barrel got 1 oz Brenneke to 2400 with 110gr of 4227, You could use 4759 and VV110 also at lesser amounts. Barrel is cylinder bore size. Brenneke slugs need no wads as the locked on wad works good.Ed |
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In the long barrel 87 got 600 grain Dixie over 2000, got a Buckhammer slug I took out of factory load over 1900. Buckhammer and locked on wad is 630 gr. Tested in 3" plastic cases. The firing pin on the 87 didn't protude out like I like them to as it comes from factory, so I removed .015 from the hammer stop. It fires big and small primers perfect.Ed |
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10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel. 28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. factory FED 765gr loads are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600, for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383. We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug of some design. The 765 gr Fed slug is hollowbase for smooth bores. Roll crimped with crimper in drill press. Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like the factory loads. 3.5" plastic cases.Ed |
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10GA FH info.Fed factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than 10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding hollow base. With 7383 that gave another 150 fps.Fast starting shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383. The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4" long. Better to replace with much more slower powder, getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.Ed |
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Some interesting things we find...... First two cases are ours we had made by putting rims on bmg brass, The right ones a santa sent me and appear to be drawn, high strength case that are same dimensions. Are they worth rounding up, seeing as how the guy who made our first bunch just closed and retired. .......Ed |
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In 10GA NEF 110gr 4227 got 765gr slug to 1800, ejected ok. If it was a really heavy barrel it could do more.Using the 7383 surplus at 150 gr, don't even have to resize to fire 3 times. The 28GA FH done and testing in next couple weeks.Ed |
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Hey ED! Can the lever actioned 1887 Winnie copy be barreled with a 12 gauge(.735cal)rifled barrel?? Love your experiments happy new year |
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Damn, Ed! You had me looking twice at a Sportco Model 53 12-bore bolt-gun on one of the gun-sites this morning! (Eeeew! Off to wash my mouth out...!) Still, if any Savage 210 actions turn up here at the right price I would certainly be interested. (...y'hear that, Al?) |
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Rigby--Yes that bore of rifled barrel can be put on, as well as a .729 rifled or any smooth barrel. I put on a smooth just because it was first to get here, and I tested loads with it. Hell action would handle 20ga, 16ga, even 10ga. Marrakai--Yes if you find Savage thay are the ones. You can put any NE case or shotgun case up to 10ga.Ed |
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Fired 28GA FH-- Cases extract easy.--It is in bolt action Enfield. With 550gr jkt slug, full load 150 gr of WC-860, got 1900 fps. This will be slowest load and powder. In picture is 3.25" brass 28ga cases, regular 28ga plastic case, jkt slugs, a 458Win for comparison.Regular cases work also.Ed |
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On the first page a Borchardt falling block for .50 BMG is mentioned - does anyone know if it is still in production? I can't find any info on it. |
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Borchardt's # I have 505-535-2923 .. 28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge, Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist. You could do one on Savage 210.Another shotgun bolt action that would handle it with little work, heavy barrel, is the 395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg. Just show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed |
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Hi Ed, Did you get my PM & email about shells and some slugs ?? Thanks |
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Quote: ; : Please advise the exact groove diameter of the 28 bore, please. For me, this thread is again attracting my attention. The 28 sounds worth making up for playing around here. A .54/170?/3-1/4 - cool! 170 was just a guess. ; First measurement on a Ruger #1 Action showed rims to around .60" only would be allowed without some grinding. |
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Sarg- I got email and sent a reply.The Proparms cases I want to find is just to pass them on to others with primer pocket bushing put in. Just going to charge for bushing. That way others can do the 12GA FH long case. Daryl-- 28ga groove diameter is .550", same as our 550 Magnum that I tested in same gun. COTW also says 28ga normal bore .550", there are co making 550 barrels ans bullets now. 28ga rim is .680". Should be no problem putting it in Ruger as they do 500NE in Rugers with .660' rim and some 577 with bigger rims.Ed |
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Here is picture and info on Royal Arms' site for hopped up 12ga loads, used in little cannons for bomb work. Anyone got any of these fired that I could inspect to see how they are built.ED http://www.royalarms.com/EOD/ammo/canonammo.gif |
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tks. |
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I like the Savage 210 so I'm putting a 700 barrel on one and chambering for my 700H 3.25 case. Working on it now. Should get the same energy levels as the 12GA From Hell case in same action. In pic is 700H case in the action. Ed |
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Ed, While I read all of your posts because the idea of powerful rifles fascinates me (though I am not happy with recoil and prefer to shoot my very pedestrian 8mm and 30-06 instead) I rarely post because I don't know as much about ballistics as most members do. I have only recently begun to work on handloading and have ordered equipment with the advice of members here, for example. My question to you is, do you think that your 12 GAFH could be made into a double rifle? At the kinds of enormous power levels that you have worked out from it, if this were possible, you just might have the most powerful double rifle round around. Just speculating here - if this is a stupid question, my apologies are ready in advance. Good hunting! |
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ed you keep talking about heavy barrels, could you be more specific if it is possible as to wall thickness both chamberwall and barrel wall, your tread is very inspiring and im getting a sxs home soon that is very overbuildt as a 12 gauge, and im thinking about following in your footpath. thanks peter |
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Yes you can build a heavy barreled double, with barrels as heavy as used on the NEF Ultra Slug gun. The diameter needed for our slower powder 12ga loads, is 1.20" at the breech and 1.050" at muzzle. I have a Zabala 10ga double that if I get time and money I want to build a heavy barreled 12 ga bore gun. Like a 700NE only our cases is longer and .029" more bore. But getting one done is really expensive.And even 12ga doubles that are premium, I haven't seen any with heavy enough muzzles.Ed |
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thanks for the quick reply ed. i got a toy gun from holts auction, in 12 gauge with an action that was so overbuildt that it looks like a 12 with 20 tubes. so i wanted to monoblock it anyways but then i saw your tread again and got a bit hot under the collar, i will do the mesaurments when it comes home and see about barrels etc it looks so fun i think dieter horneber could do a few cases as well, allthough i dont think i will do a full 3.87" a nice 3" would do nicely . something like a paradox on steroids. best regards peter |
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Peter I would be keen on some 3in brass shells if you are getting some made ,let me know on them ! Have a look at my 12 Bore rifle under "J&W Tolly 12 Bore Rifles Photos" post ,looks a bit like steroid uses |
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hi sarge as soon as i get a price i will let you know, and yes i love your rifle. talk about 12 gauge on steriods wauw. i bet it will fun to shoot when you get the loads right ed could you recommend a load with as low pressure as possible what im looking for is: 750 grn. fosbury style projectile. 3 " brass case. around 2100-2200 fps hopefully under the 3000 bar limit im trying to see if my friend and his cnc lathe could do some steel tips that i could try to cast into the fosbury form, so i could get fosbury hollow points and steel inserts as solids for some fun hunting and tests. |
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You can get heavy base turned cases from MRC in any length. For a 750 gr that fast you have too high pressure for double. Using 3.5 inch plastic I got a 600gr to over 2000 in heavy barrel NEF, and cases stick and won't extract when I went higher. You can probably get to 1800 depending on extraction, with 750gr. If you can find drawn cases without balloon heads that is best. Personally after all research and getting cases around, if I do a gun without going the full 3.85" length, I will do them in 3.5" plastic, it is just so much easier and saves money, and 3.5 inch plastic wil lkeep up with 3" brass. Ed |
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600gr slug over 2000 fps in an NEF?? You guys....! |
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That's rather interesting, Marrakai. Perhaps the standard shotgun NEF can handle it, however they aren't the same action as the centrefire rifles, however- according to NEF. ; Whether there is a differnce in design or material or both, I don't know. |
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I have shot full Nitro loads in my 500 NE 3 1/4 on rebarreled - NEF- ! Too much recoil ,like scary recoil ! I now use 535 gr @ 1850 fps NFB type load ,very easy to shoot . I think rifle action is better steel & heat treated ? but same design ! |
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The newer 10ga and 12ga Ultra NEFs are the SB2 strong action just like their big bore rifles. The only difference is shotgun has a larger diameter firing pin. The SB2 is an investment cast, properly heat treated, action like a Ruger 77 bolt gun. And it is almost twice as strong as the SB1 action they make, for their 12ga Pardner series, their 20 ga Ultra, and various others.I have both 10 and 12ga on SB2 and so far they've taken a beating and are still tight.And the 12 has a thumbhole stock and weighted to 15 lbs and it even handles 600 gr at 2500, from long brass case, that fits in the lengthened chamber.Ed |
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28GA FH testing. 405 gr in 2.75" plastic case got 1400. Tested the Great Plains 54cal lubed slug, runs from 2200 to 2700. It is by Hornady and its front band actually measures .550" and hollowbase. They hit target straight. Got a bunch of 415gr hollowbase coming that are 548" from Dixie Gunworks. Only 26 cents each. All will work in plastic or long brass case. I found another .550 bbl and coming, and it will go on a Mossberg bolt action for the second 28GA FH to test.. Ed |
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Tested the 415 gr hollowbase slugs in 28GA FH long brass case. These are ones that Dixie Gunworks sell that they call their Sharps .548" slug. They all run about .008 bigger than that so they make perfect tight fit for .550" barrel, and I used a good lube on them in the grooves. Same speeds as above for GPs. They are a little harder alloy slug than the Powerbelts or Great Plains The 28ga shellholder for our Lee, Lyman, Rcbs presses , we use, is from RCBS for regular metallic press rams. For 28ga dies Hollywood made some for metallic presses.Also for sizing for bottom 2/3 of the brass case you can cut top off of the 500J die.The slower powder loads don't even have to have the bottom half sized, which is great for a turned case. If we had drawn brass cases we could get 11,000 ft lbs, in the Enfield, which we don't really need for deer. 4-6000 ft lbs ok/deer ..Ed __________________ |
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In the 87 Win Levergun, smooth barrel, long barrel, using brass RMC 3" cases, 1 oz Brenneke KO slug to 2700 with 4227 powder. Shotgun primer. I will be getting some 3.5" RMC brass that he will put a special longer corner radius in, to allow faster loads with less case expansion and easier resizing. Should get same slug to 3000 and resize easier also. With shotgun primer able to use 4227, and you WON"T have to rework hammer or firing pin to do big primers. Santa sent me 9 more PROP cases used in little cannons for bomb disposal. Got 12 now.Ed |
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Here is picture of the Enfield bolt, showing the 2 rear lugs I added. The huge bolt handle base 3rd rear lug. Bolt handle needs polishing.This one will be in the action for the 8GA FH. The Enfield I have 700H in is like this also.Ed |
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Here is picture of the 4 slugs I've used in the 28GA FH load developement in the 3.25" long brass case and they also work in the plastic cases. Ed |
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THE 8GA FH BELLERED TODAY. It is in Enfield I rigged with rear locking bolt lugs. 32" barrel, tested 3.3" plastic cases. Cases are the REM kiln gun cases. With the double cup base. I shaved base a little so that chamber will fire these as well as regular 8ga plastic. None of the firing today expanded base cups at all, so they are real strong cases. Started testing to check ignition with shotgun primers and to see if cases are any good. Starting with a 110 gr mouse ball, wad under it, and 150 gr of Blue Dot, about 5000 fps.. Gun didn't even recoil.Then a 410 gr one at 3000 fps, Then a 770 gr hollowbase slug in a wadcup up to 2000 so far with 180gr of 7383. Barrel is smoothbore .832" bore at the muzzle. Ed |
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Some 8GA FH testing- using IMR 4759, 770 gr slug, top load of 140 gr, got 2500 fps...... Over 10,000 ft lbs..Cases extract easy. The plastic in 8ga case is twice as thick as in 12ga cases. Tried 4227 and case is too large diameter for dependable ignition.So it's old dependable 4759..Ed |
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Here is picture of Enfield 8GA FH. You can see plastic case in the port. Box of cases behind, 770 gr and 1050 gr slugs in front with the 8ga wadcups I use. Left two slugs are 1050 gr made from 3 oz kiln slugs. I rounded nose and put in hollow base. Also the cards and fiber wads used. Slugs are hollowbase, as it is smooth bore barrel. Ed |
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In picture of the 8ga bolt action you can see the ring I put on front of bolt to support large diameter 8ga casehead. It is suported against thrust by the front lugs, and total bolt thrust is supported by rear lugs and have taken the heavy loads ok.. Ed |
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Acc.Arm's 5744 should work as well as 4759. maybe better, maybe not. : You would know where to start better than I. Still haven't gotten around to testing my 4227 loads in the 12 bore. Shoulder won't take much right now. |
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Quote: I agree. |
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5744 is used a lot in large cases with partial filling of cases with powder. But you can't fill the large cases to 90-100% as pressure climbs to much in big cases Others tested 5744 and it is ok up so far. Shotgun cases are in the realm of large cases. It works with wads, to take up air space ok, but you can only get half the weight of 4759 or 4227 loads before peak pressures are too high above the limit that we want, which is about 15000 psi in 12ga.And still not get velocities that 4759 and 4227 get.Ed |
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I understand. So far 4759 seems to be the only powder that will make 2,500fps in the big "8". This is unfortunate, as that is only in the ballistic range you've accomplished in the 12 bore. I would have thought this ctg. would make 2,500fps with a 1,500gr. slug. A little much for deer, but a great comfort with a charging brown bear. The shot would knock you out of the way, and quite likely stop a charge even if not a lethal hit. |
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The gun is the limiting factor. If we had big bolt gun, front lugs, we could get 770 gr to 3000+, 1050 gr to 2700+ in plastic. A brass case could do more.But it's not bad for plastic. I also have two other cartridges with my name on them that I am promoting. They are my 700HE and my 585BHE. They both belted straight cases. Montana Rifle company is coming out with their big PH action and some guys will be doing my cases in them. Info on the 585BHE. It will work in any gun that handles 505 Gibbs like Enfield, CZ, Ruger,etc.Mine is in Enfield.Here is picture of of one next to Trex. And mine holds 15gr more powder than that Trex case. 585BHE will do 750 grain from 1800 to 2800 fps in my Enfield. Anyone interested setting up a gun, contact me I will furnish reamer and 15 free cases. Cases are headstamped. When done return reamer to me, for the next guy. I will keep them sharpened. After a few guys have guns we all will get together with others wanting some and get a run of brass made. These cases are all drawn high pressure brass. I'd like guys to ask for reamer when gun is going to be ready to chamber, that way reamers get the most guns done in shortest time.Ed |
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Ed - some time ago, Les Bauska used to make up overly-large Ruger-style #1 Actions chambered for the .600 Nitro. A note to his son might shed some light on this for action size, rim size allowance, etc, and if the outfit who cast the actions for Les is still in operation. A huge #1 Action would make a fine modern 8 bore me thinks - kinda like so many English guns, but hammerless, of course. : I'd really like to take you up on your offer of the reamer and cases, but alas, my shoulder will no longer take such punishment. Woe is me. Some day, we have to meet. |
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He isn't in business any more and none of family is in it either. On Fri May 2 8pm on the Science Channel ,they will have an article about the heavy barrel cannons that shoot the brass cases for bomb disposal.They are the same as our 12GA FH case,when resized in my dies and are shown in this thread a couple months back in picture. It will show them using them for bomb disposal. Ed |
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Testing 8GA FH in Enfield, 1050 gr slug in wad cup, 120 gr of 4759, over 2000 fps. Cases extract easy. Hardly any base cup expansion...Ed |
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So when are you going to build a double !2 from hell? Now that will be another beast and a half. |
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Quote: Very interesting idea, but the weight would likely be unreal based on the heavy barrel diameter(thinking diameter of heavy barrel NEF), plus an action large enough for the barrel size AND strong enough for the pressure. Unless someone knows of an existing double that fills the bill a double, as interesting as it would be, would probably be a "from scratch" gun. |
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I have found a Zabala double that would work, but changing barrels without the money, time, and good machinery, can't be done by me, as I have 15 easier time consuming deals a going. Ed |
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Here is picture of a sectioned 8ga plastic case showing how heavy and strong it is built. The plastic is one piece compressioned formed and the sides of the cases are twice as thick as 12ga cases.You can see the double thickness of the base cup. Ed |
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Here is picture of the bolt setup for the 8ga Enfield we did.Also comparison to a Mauser 12ga shotgun bolt conversion, from which I got the concept. Ed |
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I was asked how I got 8ga heavy barrel so quick. First it is smoothbore, second a 110 bucks total shipping and all. First I bought a 1.5 inch dia 4130 alloy, heat treated, shaft, 32" long. Then I had a deep hole drilling company drill a .832" hole in it. Came out centered on both ends. Then after it got here I used cylinder hone to polish the inside of the bore. Threaded it, chambered it, and put in the Enfield bolt action. The heat treating it had was just like the barrel stock that barrel guys get. Ed. |
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For those wanting to see video of the 12GA FH in the Savage busting big pail of water, one of the kids posted it on Youtube- Titled "Grampa's Cannon". I just found out that it is on there. This was the video that the still pictures posted before, was taken from. They have the sound muted so as not to hurt camera sound system. Ed |
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Load of 12 triple ought buckshot in 8ga. They are 70gr each, total 840 gr, and over 2000 fps with 125 gr of 4759. Ed Here is URL for the waterpail busting video above-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM |
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There are now two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube, exploding big heavy walled pails of water. The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view, and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video, the first one, that shows how the top of heavy shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing muzzle blast and recoil. Also the 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load above goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test 8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed |
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ed you have entirely too much fun, and now the grandkids get the bug as well. good shooting peter |
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I've got extra 28ga alloy rifled barrel now. So along with first one in Enfield I will be doing one in Mossberg 695 bolt action. Will add a little weight to the stock and one of kids will see how it does on deer this fall.Ed Oh here is URL of the Grandpa's First Shot Video-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk |
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Here is pic of Mossberg 695 that will be the second 28GA From Hell.You can see long brass case in the port. Ed |
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Somebody suggested this picture to show the difference between shotgun powder, factory loads and our loads in plastic and brass as it relates to increased powder capacity. Factory 3rd case with small amount of powder(more wads), 2nd case plastic with larger amount(less wads), 1st, brass case all powder. This allows us more volume of slower powder. Also the Videos, 'Grandpa's Cannon', 'Grandpa's First Shot', are heading up to 3000 views on Youtube. Any of you who could pass info about the videos out over the net, I'd appreciate it. Ed |
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Here is closeup pic of Rob's 12GA FH, a Borchardt falling block action. Real nice. In picture is along brass 12ga case with one of Rob's 2000gr bore rider, solid, streamlined slugs. Ed |
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Got my long 700 HE case chambered barrel finally in a bmg size action. It is barrel I locked onto an I-beam and got testing and load developement done over the last couple years. Max load about 23,000 ft lbs. It weighs 27 lbs, laminated thumbhole stock, a max size pad, weighted butt, a reinforced wrist, recoil barrel ring on front of stock.Ed |
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Gotta hand it to you, you're very serious about this stuff. I used to like to get kicked around by big guns, but since coming down with torn cartelage in my right shoulder, front and back, I've lost some of the "belt me if you can" attitude. Dr's who know shooting, think it's the kicking from certain postions that has exacerbated damage caused by pulling my own shoulder back into joint a number of times. Got to the point all I had to do was to reach back over my shoudler and it would pop out - not good. Which came first, chicken or the egg? I say all of this only as a warning to those too tough to wear protection when shooting kickers. Right now, my little guns are all I can shoot, up to the little medium, the 9.3x57 - and that wearing a magnum recoil protector and only for 10 shots. Really crimping my shooting, but pain is a limiter for sure. |
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I don't shoot a large number of rounds from the shoulder. And all my chrono and first testing is with guns lock to a 300 lb weight on a heavy standup bench. The thumbhole stock is a great recoil tamer. Ed |
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Here is picture of a neat scaled up Sharps replica that would handle out 12GA FH and my 700HE. That outside hammer looks great. From a magazine article in Very High Power...Ed |
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Here is a pic of a projectile idea Rob had. We will test it later this fall, It is 12ga bore rider design Body is Aluminum, and it will have a heavy 50 cal insert in the nose made from tungsten or similiar metals. In the picture he put a 50 cal bullet in for show. The insert in the nose will be flush with front of the AL carrier. It should be stable at slow twists and if built with back and front same diameter stable in smoothbores. The long lighter tail-end compared to heavy nose insert will make it stable. Same principle Brenekke uses. This idea is being explored to try to get superior penetration from 12ga, with heavy, hard insert in the nose.Ed |
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Here is another view of my 700HE blaster, that I got rigged up on an action and stock. Side view shows action with a aperture sight I rigged up. Also cases. On left is 700H 3.25" case. Center my 700HE, what the gun in picture has now. Good for nearly 23,000 ft lbs, we attained in a work up in testing with the barrel as a test barrel with screw on testing receiver....Ed |
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I do take it you mean 2,300 fps Ed not 23,000 |
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I think he means it ! from reading Eds posts it,s 23000 FPE , Eds guns have LOTS of energy !! |
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I stand chastened and corrected. I wrongly assumed that it was a typo for 2300 fps Dear god in heaven, that is a shoulder fired artillery piece. |
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That is from a 1000gr bullet over 3200 FPS. That is a show off load. Hunting load about 2300-2600. Any of you over there interested in my shorter 3.25" 700H case, which will work in MRC PH action coming out(I have it in a reworked Enfield and a Savage 210), contact Karl. He is working to get a few cases imported from me over there, and I also have a chamber reamer that you all can use. The short case is perfect for actions sized between Ruger/CZ and BMG actions.ED |
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Here is picture of a dart type 12ga slug Rob made. Body is aluminum, it has a heavy tungsten carbide insert in the nose. The TC in the nose is about 5 times denser than AL. Total length is 2.35 inches, weight about 950 gr. The .75" long insert a real tight type fit. Heat AL, put in insert, cools, locks on. It is fairly streamlined, yet has wide meplat for penetration in game. Flat points penetrate straighter in game. It is hollow inside in the back, behind insert which puts the center of gravity way up front, it should fly straight even from a smoothbore. They are fast to make and material less expense than copper.In pic is a copper and a brass 600 cal slugs for comparison. Dart/slug on right has insert.Ed |
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Do you think the rear of the dart projectile will blow out the way a minnie ball does? Could the hollow enable you to load more powder in a shorter case since powder could also be housed in the base of the bullet itself? May be a challenge to load though... |
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Cool bullets, Ed. Are the .600's for a tight 20 bore or for sabots in the 12? |
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Huvius- The back is solid. Rob drilled hole in the front to within 1/4" of base. Hole was 7/16" then he drilled 1/2} hole in 3/4" and put in insert, against step. Idea of aluminum and hollow inside is to get front heavy projectile stable at slow twists or in smooth barrels. Daryl- Those are brass bullets for .620 cal rifles, 600NE, and Rob'd 600OK. They work in a 20ga with .620 rifled barrel. Ed |
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TKS for the response. Those 20's look awsome. The longer, aluminum jacketed ones in 12 bore - incredible. |
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Here are more samples of nice 12ga slugs.....Here is pic of ones RG Henson sent. Jacketed 12ga. 715gr hollowpoints, on the right and in front a jkt 675gr hollowbase. RG's number 1-770-366-4846. These will be great for shorter plastic and brass cases as well as long cases. Other slugs in pic, in the back, left to right Foster 436gr- Dixie 600gr- 750gr brass- my 750gr hollowbase brass, and a hollowpoint I put a lightweight filler in the nose for streamlining..Ed |
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Two other 12ga slugs RG may do later on are full jacketed ones. If interested in the hp one above contact him at number above. He has to do a bunch of them to get ahead to do others.And they will be a fantastic deer, hog, bear slug. He is in Georgia. Also, any of you who might want some of the 12GA FH brass cases made from BMG brass, we have the fellow who had the idea about the 12GA FH first, Rob on AR forum, is planning on making them. He has got the machines to do it now, that we didn't have before. Let me know how many you are interested in getting, so he can plan and figure the best price. He has a bunch of BMG cases to start with, he and I have places to get more.I'm posting this all over.Ed |
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Testing 715gr jacketed hollowpoint from RG Henson in Savage 210. With 30 inch barrel, long brass 3.85" case, big primer. Slightly hairy load 290gr RL22--2700 fps. Shot moderate load of 300gr W-860 -- 2400 fps for 3 shot group of 3" at 50 yards with my bad eyes and peep sights. They shoot nice, they go into target straight.. Other nice thing the price from RG, for customers getting in on his first run, $1.25 plus shipping. That is less than half of what other big bore jkt bullets cost. Call him for some great slugs. They are great like the Dixie slugs. Ed |
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Lookee what another santa sent me. A regular BMG case on the left, and a straight BMG case on the right, and it CAME FROM THE MANUFACTURER THAT WAY. It is primer cartridge for large guns and howitzers. It is used in those guns/cannons that have powder in big bags. It is filled with powder and inserted into cannon breach and when fired sets off the larger charge. On some cannon breaches they have an automatic feed for these with a huge 40 round drum magazine. This on is marked IVI 89 C67. IVI is Canadian. On these breaches it is held by collet fingers for head space and for ejection. Ok, there are many thousands more of these out there than the PROP cases I showed before. We need to find few barrels of these and have Rob, etal, put on rims.... no annealing.....no fireforming, just slight resize to 12GA FH. Please help if you know of any. They would save so much work and time..And even though fired the bases are perfectly straight, another plus.....Ed |
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Here is a picture of RG's jacketed 715gr slugs in various loads.First are 2.75" and 3" factory foster slugs\ for comparison. 3rd is jkt HP in 3.5" plastic case, 4th in a 3" brass RMC case. 5th in a 3.5" brass case with small primer, 6th in our long brass 3.85" case, big primer. Top hairy load in long case in Savage, 2900..Ed |
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Ed- cool pics. What's the best load for a stock 210 Savage, factory barrel with a plastic case? I'd suggest with a solid slug at 600gr. or round ball about 545gr? |
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Stock 210 load- 600gr Dixie hard lead, 3" case, use 75Gr of 4227gr for about 1500 fps.Now if heavier barrel you can do more or if chamberlenthened do more. Please notice in the picture above, cases loaded with the 715 gr jacketed slugs, the 3rd and 4th ones. They both have same 90gr of 4227, same number of wads, shoot at 1700 in 24" NEF barrel. 3rd plastic is 3.5" case, the 4th brass is a 3" RMC. Both have shotgun primers.The 5th longer case is a 3.5" strong brass one I made from a PROP case, and when I put in primer bushing, I set it up for shotgun primer. I will test it with 4227 powder, 600gr and 715 gr slugs. Also in a couple months Rob, who's idea the 12GA FH was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed |
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RIP on AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin slugs. A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard. It is heavier rifled 24" chromoly alloy barrel. Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets 1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps, using shotgun powder. |
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Thanks for that info, Ed. I'll start with 60gr. in the 2 3/4" plastic case, w/round ball as I remember you suggested much earlier. |
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Quote from Ed - "Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets 1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps, using shotgun powder." : : In case some readers put faith in foot pounds per square inch, that 1 ounce bullet travelling at 2,300fps developes 5,140 fpe. That should handle deer within the shotgun's smoothbore accuracy range, shouldn't it? |
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Yup! even the big ones. |
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Still testing 8ga I have setup in the Enfield. It has a long smooth barrel. Those 8ga heavy plastic cases are great. Fire them 4 times with no resizing. Here is pic of slugs used in 8ga.. One and two are 1015gr hollowbase. Three and 4 are 875gr hollowbase. On four the cushion base is cut off so I can use card wad and have more room for powder.Ed |
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More room fore powder One would think a 8 gauge 3,5" case would hold all the powder that one could ever want. When you are done testing i will build one 8 gauge, a double jones with hammers offcourse. |
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We got our RMC 3.5" brass 12ga cases. These are turned cases using shotgun primer. They have nice thick base, and a good radius in the corner. Got a Brenekke OK 437 gr slug to 2800 fps, a 540gr Hammerhead slug to 2450. got 600gr Dixie to 2300, the 715gr RG jacketed to 2130, and a 1400gr Darwin to 1400 plus. Tested in NEF. Shot one case 15 times and still going strong, tight primer, with loads running about 20- 24,000 psi.I have pics of cases soon, and we also will test these brass ones and 3.5" plastic in 12ga Encore Prohunter..Ed |
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Here is picture of RMC 3.5" cases with variety of slugs, locked on wad slugs and sabots. There are 3 of our long cases in back for comparison. The RMC turned cases have shotgun primer. Case # 4 has 437gr slug in BPI SABOT( finally hard sabots in 12ga for reloading), #5 437gr Brenekke KO slug, #6 540gr Hammerhead slug, #7 600gr Dixie hard slug, #8 RG's 715gr jacketed, #9 750gr solid brass. Ed |
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Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get for reloading, the BPI. From Ballistic products. In picture is sabot with a 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug I put in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work. Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed |
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I'm surprised the .50's fit properly. The walls of the 'sabot' are very thick. I think I'd rather have a 12 bore slug fired from a 12 bore. Why cut power and turn it into a .50 Sharps shooting light bullets? |
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A lot of shotgun only hunters want fast light bullets, with less recoil. And a little longer range. Still will have good ME.Sabot speeds below. I like 600gr Dixie and but test everything so guys know about them. Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200". It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5" plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore 110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500. The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC brass cases started in chambers. Ed |
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I kinda like my Remington SP-10, especially with 3 1/2" slug loads Truly a big bore with lots of firepower. I have two and one is still new in the box. Any takers? |
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I think I very much prefer the NEF. TC has alwasy had difficulty with screw and ovetail depths - getting them too deep is a common TC problem- modern or muzzleloading guns allthe way back to 1970. Seems things haven't changed much with them. The warrantees are great - goos thing cause almost all their guns need warrantee work. I guess I seem to not like TC very much. Sorry - just my opinion, of course. |
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All the youngsters her just love the Encore 12ga. I just filled up dovetail cuts and put nut for forearm screws on the top of the filled area.Relieved a little plastic in forearm, screwed it on, works good.... See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up bottom of the action to match, and the other things I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases. I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot. Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt. Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this. In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer. Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this first used the regular follower and mag spring ok, it feeds ok for him. .. Ed |
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Hi Ed , Thank you for all your cool posts ! how does the Browning A Bolt stack up againts the Savage 210 , for strenght & use ? |
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THe A-Bolt is almost as strong, handle all of our long case loads. Wish they weren't so pricy. They look nice and have nice style, like a big bore African gun. Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases. Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right next to our long original case to show how well it is built thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed |
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I can't see the .5 brass cases failing, unless they are allowed to get too brittle at the case mouth. |
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What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting. Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at 70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug, with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime. NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5" with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with 80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through 17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length of the Lyman.In pic on left you see the Lymans with hollowbase up and the shape of it when starting out. Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test. Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity than Blue Dot. Ed |
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Ed - I was sent some 525gr. Lyman's along with some wads and 9.3" bullets for testing, from a friend in Alberta. As yet, I've not tried the Lyman slugs, but have some loaded for testing in 2 3/4" hulls. They are cast of WW metal and weigh 506gr. Av. They do fit perfectly inside a Red WW field wad. From the looks of them, I think I may also have to buy that mould for my own use. They might 'convert' me from round balls for my camp 'bear' gun - might! The round balls in WW metal are almost unstopable and somewhat heaveir than the Lyman slug. Alan M. says the Lyman is very accurate in his side by side 12 as in 3" to 4" at 50 yards. It certainly looks promising and is very easily loaded. |
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That's nice thing about them, easy to load and in the cup they don't lead the barrel. Slug and wad don't look like much but lot of guys say they are accurate. Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length. Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer cases. Ed |
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Ed- can you post a picture of the bolt? Does it have locking lugs on it - 1 or 2?. I'm assuming the bolt cuttout in the action itself is one locking lug. Is it the only lug? |
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The Savage has three front locking lugs and if action was built thicker you could go BMG pressures.Pics of bolt are earlier in the thread. Here is information and reason for keeping and milling the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my 2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case. Just to see how it will work and along with other guys doing it, get the info out to people. This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded 3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95". By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8". You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed |
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3!!! - wow - some skookum action for a pelter. Cool. guess I'll have to pick one up sometime (Christmas present to myself?) for a dedicated RB or Lyman slug gun. |
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We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra. There is the concept called the internal brake that works nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise. Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth 9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth. And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots. My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra. No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl. Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed |
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Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come with slightly extended screw in choke and is first 10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes. The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle. I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a major big bore project for me and others who asked me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH....... I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed |
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More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel, regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000 ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded without resizing cases. Here is other project suggested by Boomie on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH. Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory 16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed |
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Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now, A while back I got tired of short barrel and added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work. Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110, 4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with Blue Dot, and HS 7. Next one will be done different and easier. Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter. Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into add on piece, and will look like a brake and you could put in internal brake in the end.Ed |
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Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000, which is good for gun without a real heavy barrel. I lengthened chamber for the 3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs. Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed |
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Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE. It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729" and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a .750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh, 1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC, 1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed |
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There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out, the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed |
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I must say that i envy your comittment to the project, there must be some hours behind it. Ceep it up Didnt you mention a 8 bore a while ago? |
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Yes we have experimented building a 8 bore on a bolt action Enfield and now are setting up one on a NEF heavy barreled 10 ga, by boring it out.Ed |
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The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter. With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run one into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy. Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500. Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887 Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO 435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has 34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that is operated by the lever at bottom of opening stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey, neat looking, single shot blaster.Ed |
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Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better. It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously. I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an 8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up on the end as shown in picture above works great. I stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock. Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug, 135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed |
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28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect in the 28GA FH brass case. It is a hollowbases hourglass shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for sale. I use slow rifle powders in case so no air space, they fill to the slugs. I got 2900 with moderate case expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth 28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action. Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength. One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209 CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED 209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put the REM in same case/gun where that we had delayed ignition and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal, and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent. I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also) we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot, Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc. Hope this helps.....ED |
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Although I put little if any faith in paper energies, 6,761.77fpe from a Mossy bolt action shotgun! - now that's impressive. |
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Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun. It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil barrel ring I added so forearm stays put. It has internal brake on barrel that I picture earlier in thread with the porting holes. Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups, and many folks have good accuracy with them, even in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy design. These are the ones you cast your own. And there are guys casting some for sale. You see two in wadcups on the right. On the left is my prototype of the Lyman style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow base and heavy in the front, wasn't designed to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed |
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Good looking slug, Ed. I wonder how many 5 gallon pails of water it will penetrate. That's pretty light for an 8, isn't it? should be able to get it really trucking. I would think you might want to try WW hardened. 460F or thereabouts for 1 hour then quenched in a bucket of tap water - something soft on the bottom, let sit for 12 hours or more & they should come up to brinel 30 approx. I Suspect you've done this before. |
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Daryl, I have shot the lighter 20 gauge slugs,(350 grains) through three, one gallon water filled milk jugs and into the fourth one, which split and released the slug, which rolled off the table and onto the ground. It had expanded to the diameter of a U.S quarter and is the only one of these slugs I ever managed to retreave intact. Bob H. |
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Thanks for chiming in here, Birdhunter - Were they pure lead or cast from WW metal? The expanded bullet pictured looks to be harder than pure, but softer than 12 or 13 brinel, which is what I get with our WW's. At that diameter, I'd expect more cracks - and not as large an expansion. |
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The slugs I got are 30 to 1 lead/tin mix and seem harder than WW slugs. As for the 8ga I may make nose little heavier, but those proportions are like the 12ga one, which most folks says shoot easy and fast and accurate. So I want same for 8ga, without going over pressure in the barrel we are redoing. RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And I just tested some variety of ones myself. Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads. Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer, with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl. These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above thick base section to .811" from .807" resized. 1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs, with 1/8" cards and 1/4" felt wad. 715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card. 600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card. 385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs. This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder. Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example, with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25 as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case. A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads. On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed |
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Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting. It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores. Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber for the brass case. Good hunting loads would be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed |
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Here is a double projectile load that would make a good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal. Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A 515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my 10ga, using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them. The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from him and he is in court to get it back. He is in the right and if you folks show up there it will help. And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same. |
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Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put together to show how heavy of powder seal and heavy cushion base that is needed. That eliminates the blowouts and damage that was happening to sabots unless I put a card under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit target straight. Ed |
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Good pictures as usual, Ed. I am at a loss to understand why anyone would restrict & reduce the power of a gun by shootng an undersized projectile. Now, shooting sabots from a 120mm cannon, I see that and it certainly has merit. To reduce a wonderful .73 cal. rifle to a .50 or .54, well, I just don't understand the logic - unless it's just an execise in testing 'something' - that I understand. |
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Daryl, Among others, one of the reasons to use a sabot is to reduce friction (pressure) between slug and barrel, especially when using other than soft lead slugs. Another reason is to "adjust" free space between slug and barrel, since bore diameter of shotgun barrels vary quite a lot, especially smoothbore ones. In the brass slugs we make, sabot is mandatory and less friction results in higher velocity, as well. Lefteris. www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com |
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Oh, I understand with solid projectiles, reducing the diameter slightly to allow some sort of barrier - I just don't see using grossly undersized bullets in a large bore and thus reducing power. The Lyman sabot moulded slug is a good idea - the 'slug' is only reduced to about .68 cal. from .73, but to grossly reduce the diameter to the .50's is to lose a great deal of killing and stopping power. |
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Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with a flatter trajectory that speed and a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in 12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job. Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases turned smaller, where the extra short basecup is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the diameter that it chambers ok and regular case doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber. This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup, but they have the step formed in them to match the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them down any to fit my chamber, BUT you can swage them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the basecup. Examining them they do expand much more than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did expanded .005" in one shot. I will use heavier built REMs as they are 70cents primed and good for 4-5 shots, no resizing, with hairy 8,000 ft lb loads.Ed |
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"QUOTE" Lot of deer hunting guys want less recoil and more speed with a flatter trajectory that speed and a slimmer more streamlined 50 cal slug in 12ga sabot can give them. And a 4-500 gr 50cal slug at 2000 plus fps will do credible job. "QUOTE" Yes - I am aware of what they are doing - I just don't understand - well, never mind - A 400 to 500 gr. .50 cal slug should have a 24" twist or perhaps a bit faster, but not needed. Apparently, PacNor makes a 22" twist 12 bore barrel. I wanted an 80-85" twist with 5-6 thou rifling, but am having difficulty finding one. |
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My pacnor barrels are 1 to 20-24, but up to about 440gr for me in sabot they seem to stabilize in NEF with 1 to 35". Speed is the difference as RPMs are faster so they are still stable. I'm sure they'd wobble if I shot them at only 1200 or so. As far as the real slow twist barrels look up the guys specializing in black powder guns, and also check with Dixie Gunworks. I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512" slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes. Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again. Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage in our long case at 2900 though two-- 1/4" steel plates with 2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed |
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600gr. cast bullet through two steel 1/4" plates with 2" of wood between - impressive indeed! |
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Those slugs are as hard as full jacket bullets and at real high speed, and plates were mild steel. Before it got cold again got little more testing done. I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated lead REM kiln gun slugs, and it went through 6 foot of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square, behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore. It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard. I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87 smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they all made hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my 87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle, .726" at breech, so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug, for fairly accurate load.....Ed |
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Here is picture of one of RIP's NEFs 12GA FH, with a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a 50cal one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed |
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Hello Ed Thanks for the link by the way will get back to you asap. How is the 12ga fh double idea coming along??? Kind regards Ben |
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Rob and RIP on AR forums are doing doubles. I haven't the resources to do one. The Vias brake bored out in above picture will help RIP with recoil as he wants to shoot all heavy slugs in the NEF Ultra. Guys like the Vias brakes.They can be bored out and fitted to anything. I just like ported internal brakes and more gun weight. Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and 10ga light slug loads of my testing. I call them my real big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds. A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in 10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores. Smaller varmint load. NEF rifled 12ga with RG's 385gr aluminum cored jacketed HP slug at 2700, 2 overlapping and one half inch away using RMC 3.5" case. Ed |
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Good shooting - the real test is 50 to 60 yards. With well balanced loads, smoothbore will stack them at 25 yards, just as will smoothbored long-guns, like the fusils and single barreled fowlers both with round balls and black powder. Something happens past 25 yards, but tends are good. Most well bored guns, modern, that is, will hold onto 3 1/2" to 5" at 50 and that's good accuracy. I've heard of more 12's printing closer to 3 1/2" than not. I think that's one heck of a good bullet - cast hard and possibly quenched out of the mould (careful) or hardened with the hot oven and water quench method. |
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The three slug loads tested above are real light recoiling, easy to shoot. I call them my big bore, varmint slugs as they are light for the bore size. Here is picture of the 3 slugs for comparison. 1st is 770gr in 8ga wadcup, second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the 12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. The 8ga wadcup loses its petals going out the barrel, but hollowbase 770gr slug stays straight.The 515gr Lyman in the 10ga thickwall wadcup is also as a unit nose heavy and runs straight. The Lyman is held in cup with little plastic mender glue, so that it acts like a Hammerhead and Lightfield slugs.Ed |
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Ed - the 10 bore load looks like a steel shot wad =- perhaps needed to get the thickness to fit the slug. Have you tried them in a regular shot wad? Paper patching (masking tape) might bring up the diameter to fit the cup well. I used masking tape for patching in my brothers' .45 3 1/4" Sharps with very much undersized bullet and it shot well indeed. |
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Daryl- yes it is a 10ga steel shot wad with the Lyman slug in it. A 12ga thin wadcup with same slug fits 12ga which is what most guys use that Lyman for. The 10ga thick steel cups are only a dime so it is easier than trying to increase diameter of thin cups.In this way we can use same slug for 12 and 10 ga. Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with 2" wood between them. Fired from our long case in the Savage.Two plates are soft mild steel. In hole nice and round. Out, in back plate jagged. Anyone interested in the 12ga Encore with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in, it is on Gunbroker..Ed |
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Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of 29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 24 porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock, it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed |
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Ed - your last post brings up another question related to another fellow's experimentation on this site - or maybe it was gunboards. About the 10 bore opened to 8 bore - - have you thought of boring all but about 3" of the 10 bore out to 8, then rifling the 'choke' left behind? 8 bore paradox!!! |
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Daryl- That should work with right reamers and tools to do it. Rifling buttons or a cutter that big, I can't find reasonable. I was thinking of screwing a rifled choke in the stepped up area on the end that I now use as internal brake expansion area, with the ports..But I like the ports and the hollowbase slugs should be 75yd accurate based on preliminary tests with them. And the Lyman style slug that I will get mold done for, will be better yet. Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked. Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage 112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo outline.Ed |
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Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs. Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns. One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber. He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed |
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I'm 'coming' into a Mossy with extra rifled tube. Do you know if the Lyman slugs shoot from the 35" or 36" twist? |
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Fellas say they do ok.Most brag about accuracy. I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders, like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun primers I had to use Blue Dot starter. But not with these.....They are the industrial shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges. When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test firing function(cases came with primer), then I put regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder. Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder. I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel 2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got info on th powder used and how to get these primers, let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic. Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with 437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter. 140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition. Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed |
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Yowee, Ed, I think you are my new hero!! This an amazing thread to read. |
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I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383 available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake. This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company got most deterent inside it still regulates speed. Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17, with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from 437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300 with 160 gr of RE-17. Using plastic you must have a strong roll crimp with slug and wads tight.....Whoopee....Ed |
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Hmmm - reloader #17, eh - probably see that here in a few years. Guess I'm stuck with H4227 and shotgun powders. What are you guys paying for those M110 Savages? Here, they're listed around $495.00 - bit much for an action - but not much else in a repeater around that will handle those long cases. |
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Isn't the alliant powders sold there. You should be able to order it, as around here Hodgdon is the trucking distributor. 210 Savages are up to 550 bucks in places.Ed |
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I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17 and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great. Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition. I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation, it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp, and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother those one piece compression molded super strong 8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs have to be shoved in with press. And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning rate to speed up more than what it was designed for. I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression. I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like RE-17.Just pour case full and shoot with lighter slugs. Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made, email him to deal to get some- garnickrob@aol.com He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed. |
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Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum, of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed |
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Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes. They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other. They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with 140 gr the new RL-17. Ed |
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Heavy brass slug testing----- RIP'S components in first picture- 15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator, 230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug, and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5" brass case, fired in his great looking, braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him 1812 fps average. Barrel and brake are 27" total length. Great work. Ed |
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THAT load makes for a 12 Bore From Hell for sure. RIPP - hope if doesn't put you "under". Bet it's fun to watch someone shoot it. Bit much for this old guy. Still havne't beenout to try the new 835 Mossy with Lyman slugs. One of these days. |
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One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with 500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could get them there with my loads using much larger amounts of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot. Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper. This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi. He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had 200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads and with same amount of powder and got lower yet. He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed |
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Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double 10 gauge frame. It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are 1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length. Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread. In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy. It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed |
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I suspect that 500gr. is being punched out of a 22" or faster twist? That is power - 2,550fps with 500gr.! OWWW and WOW - and from a rifled shotgun! If of standard 35" ro 36" twist, I'd be staying with something lighter than 360gr. and probably attempt to get an accurate load with the 300gr. Nosler - that should work about the best wouldn't it? Looks like I'm going to have to come up with a box of 3.5" plastic and break them down to do some testing. My torn shoulder is hurting already. |
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His savage is 1 to 22 twist I think, but BPI tested 500gr in sabot in guns with 1 to 35 and 1 to 28 twist, and got good accuracy with no signs of tumbling.Of course it is the bullet rpms, so faster bullet needs less twist. The point of Bret's and my testing is to find best seals.And this seal and wad combo we found is much better, than cards and wads or other plastic seals. And they cost no more than others, and the sabots are reasonable too. Ed |
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Some more BPI seal and sabot testing. First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot. For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr. I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got 2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals, 2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs. I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok. Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the .512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for, AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using 60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman. Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads. We will know soon.Ed |
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Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole stock makes for easy shooting.Ed |
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Well that one doesent have a lot of chamber thickness. |
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Reminisent of some of the old 12 bore singles - way back when. Yeah- it certainly looks thin for higher pressures, but probably anything to 20,000 would be OK - just an offhanded guess on pressure |
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It is heavy enough. It is .145" thickness at chamber. I've fired factory kiln loads with 1000gr slugs fine. The SB2 NEF is built strong. And the kiiln gun plastic cases are as strong as most brass cases, so they take part of the strain also... Here is picture of a 12ga size drawn brass case that was made back in the 80s. Case is for the CAWS weapon system. Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi. Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded it with big buckshot and test other projectiles also. They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled over brass mouth for crimp. Ed |
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Hmm - belted 11 bore - Parker made quite a number of normal 11 bore doubles - of course, ammo is no longer available for them. Interesting case, Ed. Yes - quite heavy and suitable for pressures above 25,000 - in a gun that is also safe for those pressures. |
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Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE. It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long. I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows.. Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc, as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels big power fun.Ed. |
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I am humbled by your obvious expertise with machinery, the skill and drive you have for these experiments, Ed. Well done. |
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Great work Ed , I built a 500NE 3 1/4 on a NEF/H-R action , used full nitro loads a few times , but it was just a bit much for all day use in the recoil department ! |
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I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32" barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad. I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base. I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing. I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick. First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700, Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber, with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out. Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns. I have all the different powders and bullets tested. This is example of a case extracting easy, due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed |
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Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double, that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun. He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case. Really beautiful work and gun.Ed |
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I found odd steel block with a square cornered 1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big machining problem for me in doing a 4bore. And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel. The rest of machining I can do, and I have the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff. To many problems with all the parts riding on the breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor. Will be my own design with hammer and trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885 and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline on the block of the shape it will have.ED |
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Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist. Chambered for my 585HE belted case. I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock. and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it. I am firing first bunchs of test loads without an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and 750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more, were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers. And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail. Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases). You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of 650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed |
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Well ! makes my 500NE on the HR look like a pussy ! Great work ED , thank you for posting ,very interesting ! |
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Sarg - or a .577 Nitro! With either the light 650gr. or 750gr., it's a 300 yard deer, moose, elk, big bear, elephant or hippo gun. |
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Damn, i want the 650grs load info for the 2650fps load. |
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Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with the block to be the breech setting in the hole. Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now it is done for exact width and height and the bottom recess and link hookup is done, since the picture was taken..Ed |
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650 gr with 175 gr of W760 ball powder goes over 2600. The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff. Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer behind the block. Block will have no curved outside shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock...... Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17 powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture, just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed |
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Quote: Cast bullets with lead and antimony and with a touch of arsnic, are heat treatable to brinel 35 - max. I seem to remember that dead soft copper is brinel 40. Pure lead is brinel 5, WW run at about 9 to 13 depending on who made them, while Linotype is brinel 22 & brittle. Foundry type is brinel 28. Ordinary lead/antimony WW can be heat treatable to brinel 34/35 & will penetrate animals just like a non-deforming FMJ RN or FN. Some jacketed ones aren't as good as the lead variety in penetration. Speed allows penetration all out of proportion to the materials used. A .224", 48gr. soft varmint bullet going through 1/2" of armour plate, yet an issue FMJ '06 made .008" deep pock mark and a .270 130gr. nothing more than a lead splash on the same plate. For more information on "Jacketed Performance From Cast Bullets", everyone needs Veral Smith's book. Google comes to mind or addresses ro Veral from castbulletassn.org. |
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Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel, fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action, design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc. May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around. Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks. If there are any used extra ones around let me know. This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED |
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Big Boomer indeed! |
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Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed |
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Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts ok with the Savage bolt action extractor. He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads. The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork, I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr slug in the sabot.The case shown was fired with the RE17 load like that....Ed |
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Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my 700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case. Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned earlier in the thread. Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment with and along with reasonable costs, we don't have to worry about case length. Ed |
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Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weaponsforum has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. Looks easily big enough for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach. It is the the only one like it. They've put a lot of work into it, especially the hammer block striker setup.Ed |
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In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and 1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired outside the factory.It is in first picture. PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH, here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield. And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so it would handle same pressures as Savage 210. And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened and some mag work. Ed |
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Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga box mag and its follower and spring inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box, and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate. Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Using most cast 12ga bullets like Dixies, the overall length with 3.5 brass is 3.9" and fits 4.05" box ok. Here is picture PH from bottom showing its big size.You can see in pic there still is room to make box longer yet. And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed |
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I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun. Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs. Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel. Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it. It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan 50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone knows where there are any. 4 bore cases shown, and I'll use a big ammomaster press for them..Ed |
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Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore, showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating stop action photo work, as if anyone wwould be brave enough to put a camera out in front of it when it fired. Will have it firing by fall. I plan on using hollowbase lead slugs of about 1600gr, as it is a smoothbore. Ed |
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Why? |
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For fun and sport. And for the thrill of making holes big enough to see easy while getting a wild ride.Ed |
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Why? Why not! Keep up the good work, Ed! |
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Buck and ball loads are tremendous close-in from such a find 'big bore'. I'd think a good sized handful of 000buck on top of a 4 bore ball should do the trick just fine. |
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got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17. Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun. Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading, pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic 3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5" chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel, so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads, these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004" less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really gets the speed in 3.5" cases, as in 3.5" cases,as seal/wads about same, extra length for powder. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of 16,000 psi. Muzzle pressure is about 3500-4000 psi. I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED |
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Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action. It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a 12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also, as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs and a loading port that can be lengthened. And they have a nice style...Ed |
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We get asked about finned slugs for 12ga smooth bores and if they take high speed. Well they'll do just as good at high speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin finned slug I will get and test later. Third is BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87. I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore 12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size.Ed |
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Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3" chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases. Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter. The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok. The cases come out with the weight of the bolt. That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3" plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps. This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005", in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super mag turkey and goose loads expands .010". And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed |
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Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes these. They are hollow point. 3" group at 50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired a couple to see if they'd work in my long brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture. They work ok, so Greg has a double duty slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also. The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed |
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Who is doing chambering for these? Anyone have a reamer? |
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Quote: This is very important and most interesting, Ed - which, of course, you know. Real world power at less than factory breech pressure - or longer, lower pressure curve - all good stuff for reasonably heavy barrels. I havent' accuracy tested the Lyman slug yet in my rifled Mossy 835, but turned in some amazing accuracy using WW alloy round balls - stacking, on one top of the other at 30 yards, offhand - good speeds too, using 30gr. of SR4756 in 2 3/4" cases. So far, I haven't tested the 3" hulls I've prepared from 3 1/2" factory. I expect an easy 1,700fps with the 550gr. RB's. What terrific in-camp bear loads these will be, as well as straight hunting loads for bear and moose. More power than needed, of course, but exciting non-the-less. I'd not expect that hard ball to stay inside a bull moose out to 100 yards. |
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Will someone please buy Ed a new camera? |
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True , He has one of the most interesting and informative treads , but we loss a bit in the pics LoL ! ! |
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Mathew what chambers are you asking about. Most shotgun smiths have reamers to deepen chambers. I have reamers folks can use for my 585,700 wildcats. Comparing brass cases.I tell everybody who are stepping up in power from 3.5 plastic, you can get 3.5" brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy and nice they are compared to regular brass cases. They also make shorter 3" brass cases also. They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to get some serious thumping power.And they have a super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head like regular ones on the left in pic.Ed |
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Thanks Ed, I was meaning the longer 3.85" chamber I read about. Who made reamers, who has one they are willing to rent or be paid to use etc. |
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Dave Kiff at PTG makes reamers I understand, for both the RMC long case and our long case. Tested my 499HE in a NEF. Loads I didn't have to full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case. 325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150. In NEF got both weight bullets 300 fps faster, still extracted very easy.I got reamer. Just run it in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add a little weight and thick pad to the gun.I have a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.Ed |
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NEF 500 Nitro - interesting! What's the rate of twist on an NEF .500S&W, Ed? I think they have a .500" groove diameter, or maybe .505" - not sure? |
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Daryl , I made a 500NE 3 1/4 on a NEF rifle a few years ago , a bit much in full Nitro loads ! |
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I'd expect a few pounds of shot in an epoxy matrix set in both fore-end and butt stock would be necessary. I do remember ow much my .50 3 1/4" Sharps kicked when I ran 450's out at 2,150fps. O'course, the skeleton steel butt didn't help. |
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You can do a lot of nice big bore ideas with NEF. Just add weight. The 500 S&W I think is about 18" twist and .500" groove diameter. Uses all the .500" diameter bullets out there in bigger supply than the .510" bullet other 50cal use.Something new. Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle barrel. Barrel is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels, and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get it on with the slower powder loads we have. Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount. It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun. Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the vise readt to be crimped...Ed |
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Been meaning to ask-Would the bolt action Marlin slug gun stand up to any of these loads? Haven't seen one in a while but I seem to remember it having a heavier barrel(maybe not heavy enough to use .50 brass as-is though). I noticed the Mossberg 395 mentioned a few times so I got curious about the Marlin. |
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The Marlin would handle hotter loads than factory, but can't be opened up in the port for real long cases. The Mossy 395, 495 and 695 can go to 3.5" brass cases, and looks nicer. The loads I do with the RE17 could be used in Marlin 3 inch, that I tested above in the Mauser with regular slug barrel. Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do great also.Could be made heavier and different points. Flat point shown would do great damage to game. On the net- ammunitiontogo.com This one is about 500 gr. Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W, shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed |
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So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own. Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe and they are working to get distributors/stores here. Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only. It is called the US-S slug, and their site is europeancartridgeunlimited.com ..Ed |
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The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds. I had helped him test another slug a while back. He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887 smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at 1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing. Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled. My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle. These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to ask their dealers to work to import these for them to have what seems a good slug to reload... On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long 10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed |
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Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was kind enough to send me a few of each weight to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right. They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in 3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both. With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle, a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle, and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle, 1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug gun with slugs like these, and others like the Brenekkes, I have spare one. The US-S slugs are smoothbore accurate in my 87 like the Brenekke KOs.ED |
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I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The 700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together. Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED |
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Ed - that is one mean looking round! In ratio, very much like a short .45 bullet loaded in a 2 3/4" case, but when one realizes it's a 12 bore, and much stronger than a .700 Express - WOW! |
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The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000 in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with for smoothbores. Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype, third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some, as it is much easier way. First in picture is 16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long, 3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed |
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My shoulder aches just looking at those. 'Course, the 16 bore looks pretty good, though. 2.5" is very good indeed for a large bore on a 50 yard target - from a smoothbore yet is just iceing, lots of it. Daryl |
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I now have a variety of 12GA FH test guns including two Savage 210s in the lineup...SO I'm selling the first 12GA FH that I did on the Savage 210 bolt action. Its in original Savage stock now, 28" Pacnor rifled barrel. Stock is weighted and double thick recoil pad. It is chambered for the original 3.85" long 12GA FH case. 750 plus shipping, included 4 of our long cases and 30 slugs.That is the first 12GA FH built on a Savage and the second 12GA FH ever built. Pickup here for MI guys ok also. Savage 210s are now 550 bucks, the heavy rifled barrel cost me 350 bucks..Ed |
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Sold, can I buy 12 cases? PM me please. Matthew |
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I PM'd Matthew on other forum, It is his if a local doesn't show up with money by tomorrow 5pm EST. Which I don't think he can do. ED |
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I will send out USPS MO Monday, I am sitting on my money hoping. Matthew |
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Matthew is lucky guy, it is all his.Ed |
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Lucky and VERY excited. Matthew |
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Matthew in Oregon got the 12GA FH Savage. It is on the way to him. He is now in the recoil club. Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones. Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5" plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed |
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Truely impressive! I like that 'little' 16 bore! Good looking round and in a big bolt gun, given a good barrel and perhaps 1,000gr. projectiles might do good work out to 500 yards on Somoli pirates! |
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Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through 3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic base and it went through straight without tumbling. This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF. Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it would be in flight, before hitting target.Ed |
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4bore work. Working on design of firing pin, and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting real small parts without CNC for bushed firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes time. We will have swaged lead slugs in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done, a hundred of them at least. Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison Also 12ga wads for comparison.. Karl can you email me.Ed |
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Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a cartridge collector and gun nut friend. Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with heat gun from plastic cases, He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of time not having to make rim pieces. We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed |
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Now that's ingenious. I might have to make up some 3 1/2" .5 cases now, for the Marlin 835. Pretty cool. |
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Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I use on to it in place of the original cushion seal. I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on. The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504" diameter, and works ok. New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases, and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first. Only slight case dimension change is the base .012" smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles, falling blocks.etc. And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH, the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger. Will have pics and info soon. Ed |
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Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it. In fact the trough is big enough and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case. I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed |
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Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my 700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5" wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block. The sides are .187" thick next to breach block. This compares to about .165" say for a Browning B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with 12ga size rim if some work was done on the top of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of 1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good strength. Ed |
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Here is picture of the falling block with a 600NE in the feed trough. Work great chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for 20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also. Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed |
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Another way that I put a 12ga rim on bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass 12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil. BPI and others sell them for less than a buck each. Being so short they aren't in the 12ga FH category of generating power. But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck base, and set up a squeeze collet to crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight. And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best. Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no block to the primer gases coming out through the Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little. These will handle 20,000 psi loads.Ed |
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I wondered if that would work Ed. Good idea. |
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I did a rough crimp job with magtech in a chuck with a bolt cutter to squeeze a little at a time going a around it.Not fast or neat, so to do it right and even, you need a very strong squeeze collet fixture with collet segments raised to just push in on the edge you are crimping into the groove.Ed |
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Collet crimper might be a bugger to build. |
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Yes a proper collet closer/crimper with needed strength I can't afford either. So I am making them with base cups epoxied on,as guys wanting them for their collections. Anyone wanting one, 20 bucks shipping included, in the lower 48 by UPS. That is loaded and primed with jacketed slug. Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup. It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel, that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use 3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed |
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Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size. It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging, to make a smooth transition to the right size. It does it 4 times faster than previous process. My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in. It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed. The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over contact me... Ed |
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Hehe, the rim seems to want to get bigger then the barrel. |
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Hi Ed - I just got hold of "8 Bore Ammuntion" by Douglas McDougall , has both his books in one volume . Only just got it & have not read though it yet , but has a bit on making a re-sizer for the Rem Industrial case's & reloading them . If you need any more info (make a change from me asking you) just let me know ! |
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An amazing thread - 15 pages. |
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The 8ga rim about .170" smaller than NEF barrel, Important is that the base is about .280" smaller so it has good strength.They use good steel in NEF. It took a few tries, but I got a 8ga resizer working perfect. And a tool I use on my case lathe smooths the transition so cases don't hang up when extracting even with heavy loads.With REM cases I fire about four times without having to resize. A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads. About as accurate as the other guns here. Also I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long case.585 HE long case shown in the port. Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel. It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add 585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad. We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of 9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed |
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Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost. So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is. Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug, and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress. Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed |
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Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can make tooling and charge less than 300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring. Let me know and we'll get arrangements made if enough are interested.I have two now.ED |
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The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells. That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga. The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now, will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber. Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5" plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed |
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We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy. Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself. That makes a neat slug gun..Ed |
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On another thread here is concerns about the MRC PH action. They have couple hundred all done, but waiting on the firing pins, which are being made now and then will be heat treated and delivered. And them he can assemble our actions, adjust pins, test the safety as fast as they can, and be sent out. The company making pins went bankrupt, with Jeff having paid for tooling and 600 pins(for PH and other actions) and they didn't deliver order before going bankrupt. I have picked up 4 extra actions from guys who went on to other guns. They are a good actions for big cases. It is only been 2 years since they started actually making these and 22 months since they charged my card for first one.They designed them years before, but things with others in the firm just didn't help get it going. I paid money with the knowledge that it was to help get these actions in production, knowing it would take time, as many things in the gun business does.While he was making these, he had to buy out people so as to get busineess going in right direction. He had avery few PH pins on approval, and he tested first PH last summer and sent it to me to put my hairy 700HE in it to test, and I tested it with a 65,000 psi load, Tested ok. Couple weeks after, knowing pins work, he called to get the rest of order and got a bankruptcy lawyer. And no pins or tooling. I know I'll get my other actions. I got more patience than most, but Jeff has done yeoman job considering folks he had to get out who didn't seem to help, considering the heat treating took a while to get perfect( heat treating co fault), and the supplier problems. Also He is in process of making a complete fully equipped shop, getting all CNC stuff to do all of his small parts in house ,by the end of this year. The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now, but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings number of the barrel is 560H90. In the meantime Remington has come out with their SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed |
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I am now putting a 3.5" 20ga on the FBW action. We are having RMC make 3.5" brass 20ga cases. I also bought a huge box of 3.5" plastic case Hastings hot rod sabot slugs at their out if business auction. Picture is of FBW with brass case in the feed trough. Any wanting to do 20 ga brass cases, at same time, contact RMC, they'd like to make a big batch this spring.. I also got few of the cases to make the 10ga FH brass 4.050" long case. Anyone wanting one. I'll part with them, but I'll only will have a few. The brass is hard to find and costly.. Ed |
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I get asked about presses used for big cases. Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster. Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is braced to wall supports and benches behind. You can see the expanders laid out on the press brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid out, that fit everything from 10ga down to my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large 4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed |
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Hello. Impressive caliber is there a video shot with these weapons? Would be very interesting to see the effects of projectiles and recoil . Thank you, Oscar |
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Recoil? - nothing to worry about - 700gr. at 3,000fps - easy peasy, for someone other than me! |
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We have video on youtube of a 12ga lread slug at 3000 fps blowing up a 6gal pail of water. Just type in Grandpa's Cannon.Ed |
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Now might get real exciting load developement wise, If we could make brass cases as long as the paper one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think. Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED |
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Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before and the 10ga brass case we make using it with 10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding case out straight, making the 4.050" long 10ga case.ED |
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We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210 bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700" heavy thick barrels. The first was our 12ga FH long case. The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case. Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock, and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad. Cases in picture are 20 bucks each...Ed |
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Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing. I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed. Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger, Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed |
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Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and falling block action locked down fired off some blank type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up. I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with hammer, as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok. For loads I have wads to take up space above powder. Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about 1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug. I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed |
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Quote: Lppkinh forward to it |
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Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads for testing operation. Hardly no recoil, like a heavy, beefed up blank load, could go much higher with that light of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle blast and the gun shooting from the side, using heavier slugs in a week or so. In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot with 2000 gr slug. Ed |
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Ed - what size is that '4' bore ball? My chart and calculator says a 4 bore round ball weighs 1,750gr.(1/4 of 7,000) At 760gr. it is a lighter 9 bore ball. A 4 bore ball cast from WW metal will weigh in the 1,600gr. range. |
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Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball, which is a hard rubber coated steel ball, thus the light weight compared to lead, using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17, total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and 20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases, with shotgun primers, and with that light projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is good beginning bullet weight for early testing. I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the speeds to give about same energy. I won't load heavier until I get another stock like one I have that is full width. Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases, Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED |
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Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight, Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk. Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases still didn't expand base. just size top.. Running about 23-25,000 psi. The light ball load in above post about 16,000 psi.. Ed |
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Ed- what sided ball would make a buckshot load in a 4 bore? That is, 3 or 4 layers of 3 balls that fit the bore in a triangle? There is probably a mathematical equation for figuring that out - it is beyond my match skills. Just a gues is that .50 cal balls might work, ie: .595". Those would weigh about 182gr. X 9 = 1,638gr. Sounds about right and what a deer/bear load - or for repelling pirates. |
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Quote: Thats a buckshot i would use on game. |
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I think scaling up 12ga/.73 cal with 3 per layer 00 buck(.33cal)(I think it can stack this tight...) Makes 3x 44/45 cal in a 1" 4 bore. Or 420 grains per layer. Ed would have better idea but probably at least 5 layers, or 5 ounce/2200gn payload, maybe even 6oz. |
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Three 45cal lead MZ balls near perfect in 1" 4bore in a triangle layer. 133 grains each. 15 would be good load. 12 would be a higher speed load. 9 would be a super speed express load. Nine 45cal balls at 27-2900 fps real hairy.Ed |
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Heh, heh - you're thinking of speeds I hadn't considered. 12 balls, 4 layers would give just about 1,600gr. weight, about the same as a single 4 1/2 bore ball would, for a muzzleloader. Of course, the rifle's action will allow more pressure, higher velocity - and a paper wrap or two around the balls, ie: post-it note paper from a pad might help hold them together a bit longer for better patterns. Interesting concept. |
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The 4bore/ga is smoothbore for now, so a shot pattern might be fairly good. The speeds we are talking about are possible due to the smooth bore and thumbhole stock and good weight and balance. It is 28 lbs, thick pad, and ported. For hard shooters a thumbhole stock is best.Ed |
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I reckon a 50cal or 45 cal ball load like that is a big game crusher. I'm a big fan of Ed's crazy shotloads and sounds like some like minds posting as well. Smoothbore as rifled will donut the pattern I'd say. If I knew how I would post a pic of what IED attack 'steelshot' ball bearings do to vehicles at a couple thousand fps... hey Ed is the gun complete or are you still testing while constructing some parts etc? Regards, Karl. |
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I guess I should have said the 'Gun's' action, not the 'rifle's' action. I meant gun. Since you will be using normal wads, a jug-choke of about .020" will improve patterns and I found in a .44 smoothbore with .005" jug, it didn't hurt RB shooting in the least. Others with jug chokes in muzzleloading 20 bores get good results with round balls and shot. Should also be easy to make nylon or HDPE sabots for a 1" bore. Slit lengthwise like a BRI sabot, they would expand or split out upon firing to touch the bore itself for straight guidance & release well at the muzzle with a mild cone cut in the nose, like the BRI's. About any large projecile could be used, I guess - how about 3, .735", 600gr. round balls for a buck-shot load? That ought to leave a mark on something at 1,500fps to 2,000fps. |
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Some interesting shooting with 4bore.Gun is complete except extractor, which is getting figured out. But so far cases just about fall out. Double 760gr 1" ball load of 1520 gr total, at 2300 fps. A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each, and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at 2300 fps. Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud like big bore rifles,at least twice as as loud.Ed |
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Hardened rather than pure lead would make ideal hard cover penetrators at that speed, Ed. A slightly hardened 15 or 14 bore ball, small in comparrison to your 10 bore ball, driven at the low speed of 1,400fps will penetrate "Through and Through" an (Indian) elephant's head. Solid concrete blocks are fun to shoot with hardened balls at descent speed. i reduced one to rubble with 1 shot from my 14 bore rifle. The block was 14" X 12" X 4" thick. The largest chunk was about 3" in diameter. I still have the ball as it was laying on the ground amidst the rubble. At an initial 2,300fps, WOW! |
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I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC. The case capacity in water is 234 gr. It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the base of 490gr 20ga hard lead slugs I have. These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs and sabots I have are that size. These cases will work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi, 6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to put on the FBW Model L falling block. ! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed |
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Here is pic of the RMC brass 20ga 3.5" with Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads, and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr, Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case. Second pic is the FBW Model L setup that will have 20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my 4bore falling block. Second Model L will be built same in 3.5" 20ga. EDd |
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Transition, biggest to a smaller, in putting falling block actions in one piece stocks. First one was the 4bore, the big one in picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block and soon figured out I could do the same with it. It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge. And it is pictured above with the cases. I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel. The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases. And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed |
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Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock, compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock. Both are chambered in my 585HE. These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1 will easily handle my 585HE with proper weight and thick pads. These guns have rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and out with least amount of metal removal from the feed trough, with much more power. The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed |
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Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical Machinist built for an 8ga. It has 4 rear bolt lugs. He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice. Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think. Has an aimpoint sight. Ed |
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Did he bore the 20 mil barrel? I thought 20 mil was about .77 cal. - that's 10 bore. I should know this metric crap - but don't. |
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The groove diameter on them is about .820" so I've heard.Ed |
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Cool! - since 8 bore is .835 - didn't think about the groove diameter - DOH! |
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Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt action 8ga that he made. He uses the super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases like we are using in the ones we made by boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed |
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Impressive |
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Some have asked if the guy who made above bolt action 8ga does them for others, but he only did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer. Here is picture of a cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok. Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt so it has good longer range capabilities when you get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have a new sabot this year..Ed |
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The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty, unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use. Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two 2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass. These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed |
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Have had a bunch of different guys shooting the 4bore with light 11,000 ft lb loads. All say it is a tremendous thrill. Simply the greatest shooting ever. So many have opinions on what is a real big bore. I think really big starts at .585........ So in that vein I have made the 585 Hubel Super Magnum, 585 HSE, giving a nod to necked cases.Also can make the 620 HSE for 600 guys. This is my only wildcat base case with a neck. Base and rim are .750", shoulder is .720". and case is 3.7" long. Power in the range of 14,000 to 17,000 ft lbs. Can be used single shot in the PH, the Savage 210, the Enfield. Not for mass production by me, cases too hard to make. An experiment with necked cases. Picture of the case later.Ed |
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20 gauge-- Fired factory 3.5" plastic cased Hastings 395 gr locked on sabot slug in 20ga with 30 inch barrel and got 1900 plus fps. Same sabot slug in RMC 3.5" brass case with shotgun primer, got 2500 fps. Case bases didn't expand. Load of 150gr RE17 slow enough getting to peak pressures is easy on cases. Dies work with both case types.Ed |
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Some more 20ga- 490gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case with shotgun primer, got 2400+ fps. Cases very slight base expansion. About .001" above base. Load of 180gr RE17, shotgun primer.Ed Got asked about the Taylor KO factor, some of our cases.Max loads for my guns/cases combos.Ed 4bore in my falling block-- 1600gr at 2500 - 571 KO 700HE in my bolt gun----- 1000gr at 3200- 457 KO 12GA FH in my Savage----1000gr at 2500- 357 KO 585HE in my bolt gun------750gr at 2800-- 300 KO 577 trex comparison-------750gr at 2600--278 KO 700NE comparison --------1000gr at 2000- 295 KO |
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20ga testing- 600gr slug in RMC 3.5" brass case with shotgun primer, 2300 fps. Cases very slight base expansion. 12 number 1 buckshot, about 510 gr worth, 2000. Glued a 20ga card in the brass case over the shot. Few more guys are around having fun shooting the 4bore this summer. Ed |
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There are fellas who have and are planning on doing hopped up loads and cases in the Greener GP, Martini type action. Here is picture of one done couple years ago by 450 Ackley here on NitroExpress forums. They need heavy barrel in place of original. It has a rifled Pacnor barrel and weighs about 9 lbs. In my measuring an action here, they will feed a 3" brass case with a protruding slug, like the cast Dixie or the Henson jkt slugs. I like the looks of these old classic guns. And they are strong enough with 3" RMC brass to get 730gr slug to 2000 fps...Ed |
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A fella cast me some 10 and 8ga hard alloy lead slugs. 10 ga 1050 gr, 8ga 1320gr, fullbore, have large concave in the base. Should need little more hollow in the base for longer range accuracy. Just hard alloy, not heat treated. Nice design, one wide groove, for lube if needed. Fired one in NEF 8ga below, with heavy 3.3" plastic kiln case, 1700 fps, 9000 ft lbs energy. Entered backstop straight at 40 ft.Have pics of the new slugs soon.Ed |
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Comparison of slug type and speed for accuracy. Comparing better 12ga slugs for rifled and smooth. The US-S 570gr slug, with locked on base does 2-3" groups at 50 yds and about 9" at 100yds in heavy barrel. At 2000 fps in smooth bore. Now a Dixie 600gr slug in rifled barrel at 1300, 2-3" at 50yds- about 9" at 100yds; BUT Dixie at 2000 2-3" at 50 yds and 6" at 100 yds. It seems that slower slugs in rifled barrels losing velocity gets below the speed of sound at 100 yds which affects accuracy. Of course super heavy bullets, like 12-1500gr, make it harder to start out fast enough to be supsonic at longer ranges. This accounts for the guys info I posted earlier about his high speed in rifled 20ga killing deer at 160 yds. And holding tighter groups at longer ranges. He kept velocity above the speed of sound further down range......Ed |
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Quote: Ed - I aquired a factory rifled Mossberg M835 - unfortunately, it has a 3 1/2" chamber. I've tried some 1,600fps loads in it with round balls in 2 3/4" cases and received a single 1 1/2" hole for 5 shots - but only shot at 30 yards. I was wondering if you'd PM me some of the loads used in the protruding bullet 2 1/2" magtec brass mentioned in the above post. I am tconsidering of starting low and then working to a 3" load (shortened 3 1/2" cases), either rolled crimp or folded. The longer case should be more accurate than using 2 3/4" or 2 1/2", of course. I have 2, 14 bore moulds at this time, an adjustable one hemispherical nosed 560gr. to 1,000gr. that can be swaged to the Mossey's tight 12 bore that I made for my .69 ML rifle and the 730gr. .69" minnie that can also be altered through swaging to a larger size to fit as necessary. Also, I have appropriate sized round ball moulds that fit this gun using gas checks as rifling-taking cups in .684 and .710" as well as a larger .724", which is groove size. The gun's 36" twist is more suitable for a slug, even though the round balls seem to shoot well in it. Sincerely |
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I would say your fortunate to have rifled barrel with 3.5" chamber. You can do so much more in the way of wads to cushion keeping peak pressures down and making cases last longer and resize easier.It means you can load brass cases with protruding slugs about 3.1 overall, and use the magazine. So with Magtech 2.5"brass don't cut it off, and with 600gr slugs use 95gr of 4759, 100gr 4227, 140 gr RE17. And you can use same loads in 3.5" plastic, with roll crimp. Of course fill space with seals and wads.Ed |
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Thanks for the suggestions, Ed. |
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Got asked about slugs going from supersonic to subsonic.I understand it is that blunt bullets that are in most shotgun slug/sabot loads, do not maintain best accuracy when passing back under the speed of sound like spire point bullets do.Speed of sound about 1150 fps. Now on, FED 239 primer in 8bore and the 4bore cases I have with shotgun primers. They almost as strong, from my primer tests as the kiln primers from WIN and REM.And they seem to dent easier in my 8ga testing than FED209 or the REM kiln ones. I get them from the 3.5" 10 and 12ga Fed primed magnum cases. Makes ignition surer. Lotta guys want to try Magtech 2.5" 12ga cases. Well they are stronger built than any of the old time brass cases I have seen. About dollar each, go in same chamber as plastic, same strength. The rifle looking cartridge in a slug gun is what some like.. If you have break action load them with protruding slugs any length. If auto or pump in 3.5" chamber load them up to 3.1" overall with protruding slug and you can feed from magazine. RCBS has sizing dies. Ed |
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Ed - I understand it is the long pointy high velocity bullets that are disrupted most passing from super sonic to sub-sonic speeds. The least effected, is a round ball. As the length, shape and speed change, the more they are disrupted. Case in point, is my RBlock in a heavy barrel .50 Alaskan chambering. With black powder loads being shot over a 200 yard range, they go from super sonic to sub sonic, yet with tang mounted aperture and globed front sight, it shoots better at 200, then at 100 meters using a flat nosed 550gr. bullet. At 100 meters, it runs 1.4 MOA, but at 200 meters, it's down to .7 MOA.(1 1/2" for 5 shots, both ranges - 109yards per 100 meters) |
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But all bullets are down to 1150 fps when starting to go subsonic. No matter what they were started at. They have the most disruption(wobble), I understand at the point of going subsonic and if started like a lot of blunt shotgun slugs at 1300 they are going through that change at 70-100yds. After that they settle down and don't wobble so much, but 12ga slug trajectory, at 1300 slow start, is terrible so most guys don't use them at longer ranges. Hence the search for speed so they stay supersonic out to 200 yds.Ed |
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The wobble is caused by the bullet passing through what is called the transonic range. The range of speeds between the speed at which one point on a body transition from supersonic speed, and the speed at which all points transition from supersonic speed. |
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I found some 4bore plastic cases, 4 inches long, red colored, looking like an oversize 12ga Activ case, They are all plastic without a steel insert in the base like Activ cases have. No markings. I understand they are Fiocchi. They are the size for the 4bores that are about .950 inch bore. They are suitable for shot loads of moderate pressures. Guys loading them say they stretch out after a few loads. And they use about 3 oz shot. I will test them with a light buckshot loads of nine 45cal buckshot, 140 grains each. Total 1260gr, a little less than three ounces. In picture are plastic cases with brass ones and 3.3" 8ga. The base of case will be shimmed with strong wide tape to fit our chamber, cutting down on the stretching.Ed |
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When I made the 16ga FH, shown earlier in this thread, I had couple bmg cases that were partly worked down, and not yet expanded to 16ga mouth size. With a rim on it bigger than the base which was .770". Well, I've had guys ask if I would ever have bottlenecked cartridge. This led me to a way to do one. I made rim .770, left shoulder diameter, swage case sides straight, and expanded neck for 585" size. Cut the case to 3.7" length, and we have the 585 Hubel Super Magnum. This will be my only bottle necked wildcat. I can make the mag box on the MRC PH long to feed case..Good for over 16,000 ft lbs, Regular 12-14,000 ft lbs. Will that put trex in small letters.....Pictured with 505 Gibbs to which it has nearly identical larger shape and good side taper for easy extraction, with heavy loads.And I can make cases like I do with my 700HE.Case hold 250gr ball powder under bullet. It'll work in FBW Model L..ED |
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Shot 4 ga plastic case with 7- 140 gr balls, 980gr total 1800 fps. Used duplex load- Blue Dot 100gr, - Re17 150gr. A card and couple nitro wads under load and card over, glue gunned the card in. Shot loadedin two rows of 3 and 7th on bottom in recess in the middle of top wad. Red plastic case ok some expansion. Just about the limit for an all plastic case. Here is picture 0f 585HSM and some other cases. Gonna test a few in trusty ole Enfield I shot the 700H 3.25 in with extra rear lugs. Change barrel lengthen port.It won't do maximum real hotrod loads like when I put it in PH later, but it'll outrun trex.2nd pic... ED |
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In the 4ga plastic case a 760 gr ball at 2000 fps extracted ok. 3oz #2 shot load at 1500 ok. More 8ga stuff, fired a 2 ball, 820gr load at 1600 with all the RE17 it had room for. We fired 1300 gr cast full bore 8ga hard slug at 1700. Found a guy who can do them. Here is picture of his 10 and 8ga cast fullbore hard slugs. 2nd picture is the 585 HSM case sectioned with a competition case showing how strong brass is.Ed |
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We found some 585 hardcast, sized and lubed bullets. Works ok in my 585s at high speed. Shown in picture. We showed 10ga slugs above, Another easy to do 10ga slug load is the 10ga wadcups for lead BPI has, with a 69cal swaged lead bullet in it that Dixie sells. It is hollowbased and 750gr.Also use the same wadcup for buckshot. Some are showing interest in 10ga due to NEF making them with heavy bull barrels. Another experimenter has got a bunch of RMC 3.5" brass 10ga cases, and will load and test the fullbore 10ga slugs shown above. RMC can do them about any time you want.Ed |
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The original minnie ball for the (mostly contract) rifled .69 muskets prior to the Civil war, was hollow based of course, .69 cal. and 730gr. If these fit 10 bore wad cups, they should be an accurate bullet of decent size for a rifled 10 bore. Lyman makes the mould, still. I have one, but have not tried any in my .69 rifle as of yet. The .69's were the most accurate minnie rifles in the arsenal, outshooting for range and accuracy, both the .54's and .58's. |
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Here is picture of the 3.5" 20ga brass case in FBW falling block. Nice cases by RMC.Shotgun primer. Using 395 gr sabot get over 2700 fps. 600gr over 2200. Cases take many reloads with minimum sizing. One fired 8 times, still good and the slower powders get the velocity without the hard shock to cases, compared to fast shotgun powders. And the hotrod Hastings factory loads work in the gun also. Guy got new design 8 and 10 ga slugs with bigger hollow in the base. 1100gr for 8 and 900gr for 10. More accurate in smooth bores. Will let everyone know when he is ready to make a few for shooters.Ed |
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I like singleshot break actions. I found another brand that will work to make heavy barrel 12 and 20 ga FH. By monoblocking in heavy barrels. It is the CBC Model SB. It has stock mounted like more expensive doubles and O/U. And nice shaped pistol grip stock. They have the nice stylish look like the Win 37 and Stevens 94. But they are heavier built, just need heavy barrel. I going to do a couple by monoblocking in heavy barrels, one 20ga and one my 585 HE like I did in the NEF.And they are 50 to 100 bucks. That action is a 1/8 inch wider than NEF, has big breach diameter like NEF 10/12 gauges. The bearing surfaces on the pivot is .300" wider, and pivot block is 1/4" wider. Pivot pin is 1/10" bigger. The action is a 1/2 inch taller, and extra diameter at breach end. In fact you could build a real hairy 8ga on its wider action, with a heavy barrel and a new pivot block welded on.Ed |
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So Hubel, Just where will this thread end? A Boyes, panzerfaust, a 20mm antiflugekannone or bigger? Just asking. |
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Maybe when we get done experimenting, which may be a while.. And we are already bigger than those with the start of the 4bore work, later on 2 bore.Ed |
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More info on 10 and 8 gauge slugs. The guy got some made with deep hollowbase, 10ga 900gr, 8ga 1100gr. He will make them for a buck each. Bob Bigando in AZ. (bobiano at yahoo.com) Good price as they are nice hard shiny slugs. For seals for 10 and 8 gauge you can get regular card seals and nitro fiber wads, but plastic seals will do better, about a 100 fps in the faster loads. Plastic seals for 10 ga are at BPI, called - X10X. For 8ga I cut bottom seal part off of the 8ga wadcup that BPI has. For extended accuracy in smooth bores you can screw the seals on to the slugs and that will make the overall projectile more front heavy. Or better yet screw nitro fiber wads to the slug, like the Brenekkes are. Good smoothbore accuracy Use slugs with seals on, with slower RE17 that fills case so no fiber wads are need.Just seal and slug.ED |
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I talked about these 12ga jacketed full bore slugs earlier, shown below. Well now BPI has something similiar in their new catalog. We have tested some and one gets a 3 shot group that is nearly touching at 50 yds in a scoped NEF Ultra slug gun. They can go real fast in our 3.5 RMC or our real long case.They are hollowpoint and fairly streamlined.I fill them with plastic glue for better streamlining.Fullbore and no sabots needed. Relatively light weight, to lessen recoil.Ed |
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What do the 12 bore HP's weigh, Ed? What's their diameter, please? |
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The ones BPI has are 375gr and .729" diameter.Ed |
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.86oz. very light. My rifled barrel has a .724" groove diameter. I suggest anyone slugging their bores before trying these. They are VERY interesting projectiles. |
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Jackets are soft copper, so they'd give some. Start loads down a little. The 12ga Brenekke slugs with locked on base and the USS-S slugs I test have led to other combinations that I've put together using different slugs and wads. The object is 60 yd accurate, economical slugs for reloading smoothbores that in the reloading process we can get more power also. Like the Lyman cast slugs in thickwall 10ga steel wads, with the slug glued in and wad cut off even with top of slug. Then with wad cut even, you load and can rollcrimp perfect. It makes a real nose heavy combination that is as accurate in smoothbores, as the expensive 10ga foster style slugs. Another one is the hollowbase 577 soft lead slugs that Dixie sells, I put in a thickwall 16ga wad that BPI has. I glue it in using Goop, a thick glue that hardwares sell. Epoxy works. Another one is 20ga ga thickwall wad with 54 cal hollowbase soft lead slugs. All these and others can be loaded for a fifth of factory for smoothbores, and be as accurate as foster slugs. And our slow powder loads seal good with wadcups. Representative one in middlle, 10ga.Slug glued in tight.Ed |
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Penetration with slugs-Had a bunch of wood blocks up to 12" through. 20ga load is a 54 cal 410 gr slug glued in wadcup. Gives the same effect as Brenekke with locked on base.. Good in smoothbore at 50 yds.Goes through 6" block of wood easy/ Buckshot load in 4bore, 9 140gr 45cal balls at 1800, all zip through 3/4" OSB and keep going. In 4bore 760gr steel ball zips through 12" block of wood. going over 3200 fps. Wood is dried hard poplar. In 10ga 3.5" plastic case, a 900gr hardcast slug at 1800 fps, through same kind of block easy. This slug I put on a screwed on base with plastic seal and wad. I've also put plastic seals and fiber wads on 8ga slugs to test later..These 8 and 10 ga slugs with seal and wads locked on to them are for smooth bore use. My 10ga and 8ga are smoothbores. 12ga 600gr hard slug at 2100 zips through 12" wood block like it was putty.In a 3.5" RMC case in NEF. Anyone wanting one of my loaded 585HSMs to collect or look at, let me know. 750gr slug in this at 2800 in Enfield test gun. Soon have barrel in PH and put the real speed to it. About 33-3400. Will soon have the heavy 20 ga barrel mono-blocked into the 12ga barrel setup on the CBC break action. Make a nice looking gun. Also going to put the 8ga heavy barrel I had in Enfield for testing into falling block built like the 4 bore one.Maybe done by summer. Will be in one piece stock like 4bore.Ed |
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Finding real slow powders that works with shotgun primers, without starter powder. We found RE-17 and surplus 7383. To recap faster rifle powders we use -VV110,IMR 4759,4227.. On the thread we've written about real slow powders like H-BMG we've used with a starter powder, IE 15gr of Blue dot, and H-BMG in amounts from 150 gr to 230gr in 3.5 and 3.85 inch brass cases. And 3.5 " plastic cases. 860-1040 gr slugs. Tested in NEF with long heavy barrel. We finally got some RE-50,a really slow powder like H-BMG. It works with a real magnum shotgun primer with heavy slugs, 860 gr on up, in 3.5" RMC brass, 3.5" plastic and our long brass case. I used 239 Fed primers. Lighter slugs only give squib loads.RE-50 Is a powder made like RE-17 with the deterrant all through the grain of the powder, rather than all on the surface of the grains, so it will ignite easier, to get the initial combustion started. In brass case used 240gr with 860gr slug, 1950 fps and 220gr with 1040gr slug, 1750. In 3.5" plastic 860gr slug with 180gr RE-50, 1500 plus. Now these velocities aren't earth shattering as powder is real slow, but cases don't expand, not even plastic case base cup. And no starter powder. Nice thing is just fill cases leaving room for slug and seal and no worries about to high of peak pressures with the heavy slugs or cases expanding to stick. Now to get 239 primers get Fed 12ga long red 3.5" primed cases from BPI. I used Fed cases,and took out primers and used in other plastic and the brass cases. Got a big shop trying to free up 239 primers for us reloaders. Federal puts them in 3.5" mag 12ga loads and 10ga cases. Elsewhere it was reported someone may do a 16ga sabot. Also a guy got huge antlered buck with hotrod 20ga. Ed |
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I have a way to compare primers without powder and slugs, for a lot of my experimenting. I use a short 24"barrel 10ga. The barrel being shorter I can see the sparks and flame. I fire off the primers in case with no powder/slugs. I have just tested to see if magnum FED Fusion and Triple 7 inline muzzleloading primers were as strong as FED 239. Just the two brands to test in the 10ga to compare flame, sparks and bang, and they were not as good as the 209 Remington STS ones I like. They only put a few sparks out of the barrel.The REM 209 STS and Fed 209 M had 3" fire out the barrel and the Fed 239 had about 5-6" out the barrel. And 8ga Rem and Win kiln case hotrod primers 8" plus.... Previous post I mention trying to start H-BMG slow powder with 8ga kiln primers without success. Which is why we figured out using a starter powder like 15gr Blue Dot. Then it works great with any shotgun primer. Guys here when they see misfires with shotgun primers and H-BMG only, and the see starter powder loads go off in our big 12ga case like a tank cannon, they are flabbergasted at the difference.ED |
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I mentioned in the threads earlier a 16GA FH case I made from bmg brass. Then I put it in a 16ga Stevens 94 break action by lengthening chamber for the 3.5" case. I kept speed and pressures down as the regular barrel on the gun had a thin muzzle. Now I found a thick heavy 16ga 32" alloy tube and I had extra Enfield test action, with the port opened for longer cases. I turned it 1.1" at the muzzle. Nice and heavy. It does a 630gr 16ga 'Greg S' slug 2400 and 385 gr Lightfield 16ga slug to 3000, without the bottom 2/3 of the case having to be resized. With RE-17. I have these cases setup for shotgun primers.The Lightfield has it own seal on the locked on base and for the 630 gr use a BPGS and Flexseal over powder.. Ed |
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More info about the seal and cushion for 16ga 630 gr slug. Plastic seal works best.A clearer description It is a BPGS type plastic seal, IE, a one way seal, and a flex type cushion. One way seals best.The seal/cushion, is the bottom part from 16ga wad cups. Like bottom half of bottom trap commander 16ga wad.Ed |
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Good stuff, as usual Ed. tks. Impressive penetration. Have you tested something closer to what a normal 12 bore gun like a Mossy pump might do, ie: 500gr. WW Lyman at about 1,600fps to 1,800fps? |
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Ed, I have to say that this is truely an awesome thread, with ton's of interesting information! Lot's of genuine experience and knowledge here, that's for sure. |
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Yes we tested 525gr Lyman in wadcup. Savage rifled bbl. Slow powder 3" loads good for all modern medium weight barrels- 90 gr of 4759 or 4227--- 110gr of RE17.Ed |
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tks Ed. |
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Here is picture the CBC 20ga FH setup by mono-blocking a heavy 20 ga barrel into a CBC 12ga breech section.The 20 heavy barrel is threaded into the mono-block made by cutting off 12ga barrel. These CBC actions are taller and wider than other break actions and the locking lug block works better and nicer than other break actions.Also shown is 20ga 3.5" plastic and brass cases. Second picture is PH action with port lengthened for 585HSM, shown in action. I also have second change barrel for 700HE long case for this action. Imagine over 20,000 ft lbs in a PH, for 700HE. Also shown behind is a PH with 700H 3.25"..Ed |
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Here are some 20ga slugs/sabots we rigged up. I traded for whole box(hundreds) of 20ga Hammerhead slugs, in the picture. They had pulled slugs out of the locked on plastic base, so I glue them back in so base stays for fair smoothbore accuracy. And I also glued in various 458 bullets, as shown, which fit tight in cup, up to 500gr. They discard on impact. Fair accuracy at 50-70 yds. Less expensive shooting as I have pile of hard lead 458 slugs. Idea on 8ga FH. Looked at a TCR87 break action 10ga and the breach mono-block can take a little bigger barrel.If I find one I can afford(pricey) I'll do 8ga. These are very strong actions, a little smaller version of the action setup Colin put the 2bore in. Just put in straight 8ga bull barrel like NEF Ultra.ED |
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Here is picture of the 4bore in a more finished look. Second picture is closeup of cases and 1520 gr hollowbase hard slugs. The 4bore is smooth bore so hollowbase slugs are used. I set up gun with smoothbore as that saved large amount of time and money on the barrel. Ed |
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I found 3 long brass 8ga cases to go with the 3.3" plastic ones. They are an inch longer and made by RMC. The 8ga barrel I'm putting on a falling block will have the chamber long so I can use both lengths of cases. The plastic ones are from 8ga kiln cases with base swaged a little and has shotgun primers, The long brass has shotgun primers. I use Fed 239 shotgun primers.Ed |
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Ed - the 4 bore brass - appears you have two different makes (colour and extractor grooves)? |
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The two on left are those I make from 20mm brass, two on the right are turned cases that Ken Owen had RMC make years ago for double he built. Both same chamber and size, one from 20mm has wider extractor groove. Ed |
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The long brass 8ga cases have same thick sides as plastic cases. And there are long plastic/paper cases out there, but they are scarce. Thick sides mean a good chamber fit, so as to minimize case expansion and make sizing easier. Here is picture 8ga and 10ga fullbore slugs with locked on basewads that I setup. Wads held on by screws and slugs hollowbase as well, so to work in smooth barrels with some accuracy. 8ga is 1100gr. 10ga is 900 gr.Ed |
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New super strong 12ga bolt gun just out, Savage 212, taking over for the 210. You know I did my first 12ga FH in a 210 and have posted that sometime I'd like to get a thicker walled reciever built to have more strength and safety. Well Savage helped us out. Its reciever is 1.5" diameter, where the 210 was 1.36" dia. I has a large .900" diameter bolt, where the 210 had regular 110 bolt inside bolt carrier. It has a fitted bolt head like 210 and other Savage 110-116 rifles. Only its bolt head has two lugs where the 210 had 3 lugs. Its two lugs about 90% strength as the 210s 3 lugs.Its about 12% stronger lugs than Enfield and Rugers. Also it appears the bolt raceways are not through the barrel thread area so about 50% stronger barrel connection. Price not too bad 500-550. I'll try to find one later to do some hairy cartridges in. It has a 3" 12ga chamber from factory and detachable magazine. Probably can have mag and port lengthened and feed ok, with 3.5" 12ga and the 700H 3.25". More info as I find out stuff.Picture from auction-e.Thanks to Bob in OR for info.Ed |
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Some more info on the Savage 212. I looked at one, got more measurements. The port is 3.812" long. Can be made longer. Bolt travel is 4.625" and can be .50" longer. And with full diameter bolt can have extra lugs in back. The Mag box has room for extra length in front of it and behind it. It could work for 12ga FH and 700HE long case. A fellow on Gunsmithing forum found a way to make jacketed slugs using copper tubing caps, the solder ones, by putting them in a die and using a shaped punch to form a round nose copper jacket, that can be filled with lead. He made .700 cal ones, different dies/punchs could be made .729, 12ga size. I got a few here and going to see what is possible. I got bigger caps also to see about 4ga and 8ga ones. Here is picture of the CBC break action with the 20ga heavy barrel mono-blocked in, with action open.Ed |
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Would have posted back quicker but computer hookup down for afew days.. Here is picture of 16GA FH I mentioned earlier doing in an Enfield. Got 630gr slug 2400, compared to the first 16GA FH in thin barrel break action at 1600. I use 630 gr full bore slugs and the 385gr SPW saboted with locked on base. Opened port and changed bolt stop. Reamed front so case fit through action into barrel and added extra rear lugs. Same process that is used to do Enfield in my 700H 3.25. I got some of the work done on 8ga in my falling block design, like the 4ga I've done pictured earlier. Will get pictures posted later..Ed |
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Experimenting for fellows trying to get speed with heavier sabot slugs than the lightweight saboted 4-500 gr kind of slugs, in 2 5/8" length brass cases for where length is limited.. Using 770 gr saboted slugs with locked on base, by US-S. Thes are long saboted slugs due being brass and locked on base. Real hard to do with these due to lack of powder space for the RE17 and IMR 4759-4227 that I like to use. With 770 gr and 60gr 4759 got 1450 fps. With 75gr Re17 about 1350 fps. Both of these all case will hold under sabot. For contrast using full bore 730 gr Dixie with just seals under it, much more powder room, with 95gr 4759 getting 1800 plus and 130 gr RE17 1700 fps. I went to faster powder, my slowest shotgun powder, Alliant steel, to try to get speed like full bore slugs get. These listed are max loads before brass cases expanded to much and started sticking, due to sharp expansion step, where the base goes to the side with a real small inside radius on this particular RMC brass case. 47gr Steel,and 770 gr slug 1400 fps. So I tried the 570 gr US-S with 53gr Steel,and got 1700 fps. Same slug with 65gr 4759 got 1650. You can put in more Steel but cases stick. And cases expanded that way are hard to resize. The first 3" brass I got years ago, same problem with a sharp step expanding above the base. So when I had 3.5" brass made I had them do a long inside radius from base to the sides. These with extra room for powder and cushion are much less problem. I think where you have to use shorter cases, you can use plastic, as a 3" plastic is 2 5/8" when crimped and will do the same and only be 20 cents or so new.Ed |
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Here is picture of a big bolt action a fellow on Homegunsmith built to put big cases in, for his own use. It is of better looks, quality than most other single shot actions, of that style being built by others for sale. And that is absolute sexiest bolt handle. Also the fellow made a recess type of die and shaped punch to make large caliber, copper bullet jackets, from plumbing copper caps, and then put melted lead into them from the back. He uses a big hammer, works great. I got a few different sizes of caps and they are perfect for bullet jackets. Right from hardware or plumber supply places. ED |
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Answering questions; bullet jackets from copper tubing caps. This process makes jacketed slug with covered nose. With heavy soft jacket as opposed to a solid turned slug from solid rod or soft lead slug. 1/2" caps can make .700 and 12ga size jackets. 5/8" caps can do 8ga and maybe 10ga jkts. And 3/4" caps can make 4ga. These cups are malleable enough to shape into jackets, without a 20 ton stamping press. Interesting info about our posting of this subject on about 5 dozen forums. One big general forum thread, that we posted some info, has about 5 million views.It is Mil Photo Forum a big world wide forum.. The top forum of the bunch, with whole thread on it about 120,000 views, 2nd about 110,000 views, 3rd one about 104,000 views, 4th one about 102,00 views. We greatly appreciate all the interest from all the forums, of all sizes. And all the help and ideas too...Ed |
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We all appreciate this view into the process!! Great stuff -- keep it up! Cheers Tinker |
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You know of the 4 bore we did on falling block, with its 1 inch bore.Using turned cases and cases made from 20mm brass. Our cases have a rim and straight sides. A smith in the EU made a 1 inch bore gun on a bolt action, using 20mm brass expanded to take 1 inch bullets. His case has a shoulder to head space on. It is called the Inch Gun by some. It is a really nice looking gun, with great craftsmanship.Ed |
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Here is picture of the 8ga falling block we are working on, partly done. It is built like the 4bore one in a one piece stock. IT is built .150" narrower than 4bore. We used the heavy 8ga barrel that I first put in the Enfield bolt gun for a 8ga testing. The breech block, linkage, lever, pivot is done, as you can see in picture with lever open and breech down. I have got to chamber, put in firing pin, do hammer and trigger. 8ga gun in 1st picture. Hammer and trigger setup is now mounted and moves on the back of the breech block on an extension. I also made this change first on 4bore, 2nd pic. It uses NEF hammer and spring and Stevens trigger. Breech block set up same as 4bore just narrower. Later hope to do a 2 bore and same setup only breech and action a little wider.Ed |
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Here picture of the 8ga from back. This action will also do 12ga FH, 10ga, 700HE, 600NE,50BMG,etc. The breech block in this and the 4bore are 1 inch thick front to back, with the width different. The bottom of block is same on all and uses same linkage and lever; same hammer and trigger. The 4bore one will do 20mm, as that is what I make the 4bore brass from. When I do 2bore, breech block will use same design, but just be wider on the top of the block. The recoil pads are over 2" thick. I made the stock from a 2.5" thick blank......mostly by hand. This action will hold much more pressure that the heavy built plastic 8ga cases can take , and they are good to over 20,000 psi. Like a 1000gr at 2500.Ed |
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Guys wanted more particulars of Hubel FB.. Here is picture, empty falling block receiver from the top...2nd a side view of the breech block with back extensions, with hammer and trigger. Hammer has safety cocking notch. The lever, not shown, connects to linkage up inside the two bottom extensions.Ed |
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A fellow in Texas picked up a Tula-Toz 4bore pump gun like Big Al has. He is getting some of the 3 inch brass 4ga cases from RMC. RMC still has them if anyone needs them. That gun takes a short 4ga case, either brass or plastic if you can find them.This 4 gauge is a .938 inch bore, smaller than our 1 inch one. Pic is Al's gun.Bolt has 4 locking lugs...ED |
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Here are pictures of the Falling Block breech block. Front and side rear view....Notice the integral bottom extensions are narrower than the top. These are what the linkage is inside of and when breech is levered down these fit though the slot in the stock. And being narrower the slot isn't too wide so the stock has enough strength. Botton extensions same width for all action sizes.Just top different for the size of action needed for big cartridges. This breech is little rough as it has had a dozen changes to it. But it holds a load in 4 bore of 1500gr over 2600.Ed |
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You know Ed i have just revisited the first three pages of this thread,its only getting better all the time...and BIGGER! |
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22,521fpe - amazing number |
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Some more slug ideas--First picture of 10ga 830gr hollow base slug in 8ga wad cup, And 690gr hollowbase 69 caliber Dixie Gunworks slug that I swaged down a little, in a 12ga wad cup. 2nd picture is the a new offering from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate in smooth bores. In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders I could get over 2800. Ed |
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I checked with US-S - they are looking for an American or Canadian distributor. Guys? Ed - that Dixie bullet should be fairly good with the hollow base helping the weathervane effect of the wad. |
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That US-S pointed slug with discarding petals, and locked on base, shown above is called the Swift 12. And correction on the weight, it is 320 gr. And they plan on testing and maybe supplying 3.5" versions, planning on getting around 2500 fps with shotgun powders. I know in our 3.85" case in the long barrel Savage, I could get over 3000 with big amounts of our slower powders we load with. Bought some tubing caps And here is picture of those copper tubing caps, you can make bullet jackets out of, and fill with lead. In picture you see a rough one I formed with punch, and with a die they be perfectly formed. And with right die they could be formed with round nose with edge step for perfect roll crimping in plastic. And on the right see big caps that would do 4 bore.There are caps between the two sizes that would do 8ga...Ed |
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More 12gs slug/sabot info-- About discarding sabots. Most factories making sabot slugs make them relatively light, 300 to 350 grains, and that is why they are on average more accurate than what guys try to reload with heavier slugs in the sabots. Reason is light slugs don't damage the sabot, while they are trying for high velocity. Example is picture of Hornady SST sabot and it only has a one way plastic seal over powder, and a hard rubber cushion inside the sabot under the 300gr jkt spitzer style slug. Many 12ga hunters say these are the most accurate. Another slug idea is a blunt nose jacketed slug of 675gr I made from one of RG's hollow point jkt slugs. I cut part of jacket off of the front and swaged it over to make blunt nose. These are for the guys trying to make short loaded brass case rounds in 2.5" brass and 2.62" brass to be no more than 2.75" overall to work in certain guns. it is on left, 2nd pic. And gets good velocity with just good BPGS seals under it and slower powder. On right is US-S sabot with discarding petals, locked on base we tried in short brass case, and can't, due to length of sabot get in enough powder to get the higher velocity with heavy 700gr US-S slug, the guys want to get.....ED |
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Here is picture some folks wanted of our big cases with smaller 30-06 for comparison. In picture, 1st my 2ga, 4ga, 8ga, 10ga, 12ga, my 700HE long case, my 700H 3.25", and 06. 2nd picture is short 2 5/8" brass cases we are checking loads in, to see how much speed can be gotten.You can easily see the length of short full bore lead slug, compared to the saboted ones, allowing more powder in the short slug load for more speed.. Now this doesn't mean saboted are no good, or that I don't like these saboted types. Great for smooth bores, the US-S with locked on base, are the best there is, I think, for big game.Just got to use longer cases. I always felt, that going longer cases is worth the effort where practical ED |
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Here is picture of my big 585 cases. 30-06 for size comparison. 3rd is 585HE - I have it in bolt, falling block, break, etc, actions. 1st is 585 Hubel Super Magnum - Designed for strong bolt guns. Have in a MRC PH. Can get 20,000 ft lbs. 2nd 585 Rimmed Hubel Magnum and I have it now as a single shot in an 1887 Win. The 87 has a 30" heavy barrel. Case is designed to use in break actions and run about 25,000 psi, but due to the size of the case has enough powder so can get 15,000 ft lbs. It is 4" long, could be called 24ga FH.Ed |
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Ed- is that '87 one of the modern re-makes, or an original? I understand that it has a modern or custom barrel - what make, twist, size, groove dia.(actual .585")? |
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That 585 belted case (from the left next to the 06) has same bolt face as 505Gibbs and will fit into unmodified CZ550 magnum bolt action. It will feed from a staggered magazine just like the gibbs in the CZ. Looks and works like a scale up 458winmag/Lott just fatter. And the same idea as the 500 A square. The Lott and 500A2 two of the modern best big bores. The 585HE makes three. A very clean and simple design, with no rebate, no problems at all. Perfection. The 577/585 handles some really big bullets and wild heavy loads or can still be loaded in at a practical level for a realistic hunting rifle with 577NE plus loads. That practical option, without a muzzle brake or 16-18 pound gun weight seems a real plus to me. It is IMHO, the best in class, best of all the over 50 designs. No compromise and quite practical if you can say that about any over 50. Between 50 and 58 caliber there are only odd ball diameters and over 58 will not fit properly in the CZ550, or requires major rebated rim and single column feed. The 58 bore is simply the best fit. Just an opinion, but I am big fan. IMHO - Ed really has a potential winner in this one. |
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FBourbore-- THanks for bragging up my 585HE. It is great and is perfect in the PH also. And great in many other styles of actions. Daryl- Yes that is the modern steel one. Barrel 30 inches, groove .585"- 1-22 twist is best. Even with heavy bullets the extra speed we have, gives plenty of spin for stable flight.Ed |
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Some 10ga experimenting with slug loads. In NEF with 32" factory, long bull barrel. It is smooth so we use hollowbase slugs Cases FED 3.5" plastic cases, roll crimped. 900gr full bore slugs -180 gr RE17- 1800 plus. Use plastic powder seal and fiber wads. Slug hollowbase and hard cast. 740gr 69cal hollowbase soft lead slug, in VP100 10 ga wadcup. Deep hollowbase slug ..Wadcup has own seal and cushion. 180 gr RE17 -- 2000+ fps. Here are pictures of a couple other different guns in my long 585HE cartridge.. 1st is Olympic Arms BBK bolt gun, in a target style stock with palm swell pistol grip...2nd is the one I made on a CBC single shot by mono-blocking in a heavy 585 cal barrel. Barrels- BBK 1.32" at breech- CBC 1.18" breech 1.070 muzzles.Ed |
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Some 28ga FH info and ideas. Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed, decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and 28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there. 28ga is a .550 Inch bore. But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber, a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case. Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my 585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed |
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I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs, 260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer brass case from RMC. 28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bore. 24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore. And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on. Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger brass cases. The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal, connected by long post, that you can see inside the case in picture and pictured on the box Quite a long tail so to speak for good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only 100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED |
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Mate, I continue to ask myself the question of "Why". Other than from a hobbyist perspective I am yet to receive an answer. regards |
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The why is to make bigbores with big power, in affordable ways, in innovative ways. Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads developed. The slugs are about same length as the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels. I'll Have pictures later to post. Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt, straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy, 30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads, it fits nice, looks great. Ed |
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10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty 10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport shown in the picture below, also American Arms, and Richland Arms. And probably a few more. I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases, with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each. Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy. For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead 900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750. Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that, keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi. These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong. Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames, and others have made big bore rifles using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed |
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Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke, a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of 16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads. Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs. Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band, penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz. Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke, in a sabot I figured out the following. The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for 12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works. Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok. In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case, gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures with 440gr slug in blue sabot.I plan on in future to make a 10ga with rifled barrel, which these would be best in. If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed More pictures of the Brenneke and Fed slugs- |
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Hello Ed I am looking for an affordable 12 guage SXS that I can cut back to 24"barrels and regulate with US-S 570 slugs that I have on the way. Do you know if there are any past or present factory offerings that had barrels heavy enough to handle your reloader 17 loads. Up here in Canada if you want affordable you have to order over the net and take what you get so any help would be appreciated. I know i can get my hands on a good used brno,aya,simson or sauer but they are in warehouses and help is minimal at best. |
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The side lock BRNO - tradeex has some good price, is probably the strongest action-wise. Many double rifles have been made on them now. Monoblock strength and current barrel strength is the stickler. I'm going to try some 4759 loads in my pump gun. Smoke - did you received the .710" balls and wads? |
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I sure did Daryl. Havnt had a chance to load any yet as I'm in the thick of trying to kill a bear again with my boregun. Got some Ballistic products dangerous game slugs that I'm trying and they regulated at 5" at 75 paces with 45 grns 4756 in cheddite hulls right off the bat so I'm stuck there till I kill the big fellow that's been toying with me for two years. He's 6" across front pad so shoul make 7' bear. Got some US-S 570 coming from Greece for testing but my husky is overbore at .735 and these slugs don't like over.732" tubes so looking at those Brno's on tradex but would like heavy tubes if I can find em. Thanx again Daryl. |
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That is problem with thin barrels on doubles and slower RE17..... I'd go no slower than IMR 4759 in all the double 12s that I've looked at. I've haven't seen any with barrels as heavy as regular Savage 210s or Mossy 695s, let alone approaching NEF Ultra thickness.ED |
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Any load advise for 4759 in 2 3/4" or 3" chambers? Thanks For your research Ed. |
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Well with 600gr slugs use 80gr 4759 in modern light barrels, and in barrels .90"- to .94" muzzle use 90 gr. Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with. Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok. In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN. The slugs have real good shoulder to roll crimp against when used in plastic cases. These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to work on another die to get the weight about 600gr, that the brass case guys want to use. Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't a bad deal to get them and change them.Ed. |
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Ed - I mic'd my Mossberg M835's rifled tube at .724" groove diameter, .712" bore. Merely FYI |
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Well then maybe it'll work better with under size BPI sabots. The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr, that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the long barrel NEF. For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block. The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do 35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers, good for 4 shots or more. And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works for various other slugs and shot loads. In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases- 1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400--- and triple ought buckshot load--- 9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed |
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Thinking of buckshot?- does anyone make 'tungsten' buckshot nowadays with all the non-toxic shot laws? I'm thinking primarily about those US military 12 bore loads using 'hard' shot - the 7mm load for instance - #3 or #4 buck - .28" in tungsten, supposedly went through an issue helmet at 150yards. They initial speeds were in the 1,800fps range, but at 2,400fps to 2,600fps, that's some lethality! Fun testing, too. I am not suggesting any illegal use - just the old article I remembered from G&A or some other magazine came back to me when I saw those high speed buck loads, Ed. |
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Remember these from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases.. 3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases. Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU. The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed |
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Quote: Who cares why. He obviously enjoys what he's doing and many, many find it interesting. I would love 10 bore gun from the old days to play about with. Why, because I can. |
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Received my us-s slugs from our member Elvas and couldn't be happier. This is a great looking product and I can't wait to send some downrange. Am waiting on a new to me shotgun to modify for use with these slugs. Any updates Ed on the 2 5/8 brass and us-s slugs? By the way fellas Elvas is great to work with and shipping was no problem. Thanx again Elvas. |
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Well we are going to use expanded Lee slugs in the short brass to have powder room to get the speed the short brass guys want. That is why I like long cases as you have more choices like the US-S, regular sabots, as wel las Lee and Dixie. etc. In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called 12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds. And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds. And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels than we have today, so our work is a good extension of what the early big bore guys did. And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed |
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Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures, above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting. Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926 Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads. Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH .... Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress. 2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain, next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with if ever available.. 3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed |
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Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores called the Field I think. Looks like some other side levers, looks like lever works forward. And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8 bores only wider. I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed out to the two bore size. And a square hole for breach block done in that hunk of 4130 steel. Other experimenting, a while back, when I made my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a 620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design, IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor. Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case. Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one. Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the 585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed |
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First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle, that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges. Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore, from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case. Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug. last shows the thickness and strength of finished case. Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200 from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759. Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed |
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Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns. I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use magnum primers. A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239 mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239 Mag primer about a foot of flame. Some more info from the old days, here is picture of a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago. And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed |
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^the FB is a Field's patent action. |
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We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s using easy to get components,cheap, without buying loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all. In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight, About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel. Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a 750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100 10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy. Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock, and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice down to these slugs. And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic and seal on the back and to shoot like aBrenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds. Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed |
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A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia. First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped. Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base. Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a flat meplat slug on the front of the base like the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to have more room for our slower powders.ED |
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Here is picture of 4 long cases of RIP's on the AR forum. Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge 3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga getting these and lengthening chambers allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also. Some factory guns are 3.5" Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga. Chambered for these you can use 3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are 3.5" from the factory. 3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass. Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case. Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove which made it possible to crimp that way.You can see one of those slugs in the picture. Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5" plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore. In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also. It is great to see a smooth bore slug like the US-S that is as accurate as most fullbore slugs from rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon from European Cartridge.Ed |
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Neat! Keep it coming, sir! How are the 2 bore projects coming along? |
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Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece, who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets pictured have the locked on base that their other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy. 2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper for doing slugs like these.Ed |
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Nice work Ed! |
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A keen man at the bench,many hours spent there too Ed by the looks of all your work. |
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This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available down under. It has locked base like Brenekke. And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S. And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs by fellow on NitroExpress forums from double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds. I show this to promote the use and testing of smooth bores for accuracy with right slugs as opposed to to neglecting the possibilities they have. 3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with four discarding sabot carriers, with centered penetrating solid bullet, from France. |
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Shot off some .715 patched round balls loaded ahead of 80 grains of imr4759 today. Balls weigh in at 525 grains. No chrono available right now. Any guess at what velocity these would be traveling at the muzzle Ed? By the way this is a very nice shooting load. |
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What primer, Smoke? What wadding did you use? |
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Cheddite hull and primer, trap wad trimmed down and a lubed hard card wad. Lots of compression with a roll crimp. |
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You should have 1700 depending on barrel length. You can go up to about 95 gr with that weight of slug/ball. Could you mike a new unfired case just above the rim, and measure a fired one. We use that as idicator of how high you can go. Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing. First is a long pointed slug with locked on base, It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore. Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound. Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can get for reloading, and we're finding that these locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed |
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I did some brief testing with nylon and lexan saboted .30 cal bullets in my .458 - years ago. I went up to about 3,600fps with a 150gr., but accuracy was almost ruin chornograph each shot deal. The idea has merrit. |
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I think there is a balance between sabot thickness and bullet diameter, when putting them out high speeds,in rifled. What I mean is I think in your 458 example the sabot should have thinner sides with say a 375 cal bullet.That is why I am going to see where I can find 12ga sabots taking 58cal bullets or maybe 620 cal.I have pictures on soon of this idea. I think for high speeds there is such a thing as to much plastic.Ed |
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I agree - the 'sabot' has limits, but of course, the limits are closely tied with the material being used. The harder the sabot material is, the thicker it can be, I'm sure. In the .458 scenario, they were making 4,000fps with 220gr. RN bullets. The whole idea (I assume) was to break 4,000fps with a .458 WinMag. using a reasonably heavy bullet. I doubt that bullet held together for very long, but hard to say. Barnes TSX are available in 250gr., but I suspect the friction would be too high, to get much over 3,000fps with them. A still like shooting bore size, or almost bore size in a shotgun, rifled or smooth. I freely admit the sabots might have some military applications, for sure - a 12 or 10 bore platform makes for a LOT of diversity in projectiles. |
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Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts. First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug, with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight. Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take 57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal 640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit. Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do. Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one, fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it fit for length in sabot and is 750gr. Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing 50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at the greater pressures and violence of high speeds. Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy problems, etc, maybe time to try something else. Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured 12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others, and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use. It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many, many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles or in sabots if we can find some.ED |
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Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types and locked on base types. First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in tight, into the base. Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight. The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr. And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr. Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot, and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass 3.5" RMC cases. Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet . The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug. I wish the BPI was full size like the others and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy......... Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various 50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed |
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Some more slug setups and ideas. First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug. It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds. Shown with BPI powder cup seals. 2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison. With corresponding length cases they were designed for. 3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and 1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr. A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic. These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like. 4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style 58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy. |
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WOW Ed - sure bringing a lot to the table to stimulate and get the productive juices & hopefully testing juices as well. I'm having a bit of a health deal right now, hard to deal with other stuff - been going on for a while, but things are comming to gether, slowly. (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.) |
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Here is some more older cartridges and ideas. First is a fellows collection of older brass cases. They look like Berdan primed. Run from 36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge. Second is a paper case clad with thin brass nearly to the top. Third is picture of paper case crimped into the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one pictured above with a Dixie slug. Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above. A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed. For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones that have been available, for reloading guys. That the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have had to work with. I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at 30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200. Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic. Can be loaded faster. No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder than witches ---, and no time. I am trying to find who makes these.There are about 2000 injection mold companies in US |
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Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug, with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels. This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup seal, and forced it on for a locked fit.. Slug is .629" diameter. Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores. Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores. Man what nice old guns. Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed |
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Geezuz. Whats the comparison cartridge? And the ball. And what weight are the 1.5" slugs? Do it! You know you wanna... Build The One gauge! Wonder how much those 4 bores went for? |
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Ash , I took that photo of a page in a old magazine I had , down loaded it & posted on another tread about 4 Bores on here I think . |
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Quote: 35 Rem. the ball is a 50mm canon ball, the case is the 37x92R better known as POM-POM the minie bullets were made for a muzzle loading canon made from a 3,7 cm german flak barrel |
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yes - .35 Rem with 200gr. Scalloped Jacket RN. We shoot a cannon with a sleeved 1-1/2" bore. We shoot 1.4" cast & patched WW balls from it, actually won the cannon shoot with it. I cannot envision trying to stop that heavy cannon from rolling back when we fire it, let alone shooting something like that from the shoulder. Of course, the cannon weighs well over 500 pounds - and we don't cheap out on the powder. I assume the 2"(50mm) ball is at least a 2 pounder or maybe 2 1/2 pounder, since a 1 pound is 1.67". |
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Yes I got the picture off of here, That slug gave me the potential idea of a 1 bore using cut off at the shoulder surplus 30mm cases, if I get ambition. Probably stop at the 2 bore. Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are like ones we want to get made for reloading. They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug. I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds. Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel. The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200. Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion. All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show and magnify difference between the two wad setups.. What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy. That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them. Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason. The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion. Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun. Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110) around the net. We are very happy with the response and help we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting, reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views. All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views. And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000, third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED |
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Well, we surely appreciate this thread here, Ed. It really provokes thinking and ideas about the slugs and what can be done to help with accuracy. It's also a big eye-opener on the slower burning powder use in our shotguns, rifled and smooth, with slugs or balls. I'm not surprised over the tilting or collapsing of the long cushion wads, Some, by design, of course, would be worse at this than others. I've usually only loaded with harder wad columns, built up without cushions. |
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If the longer plastic cushions collapse straight they are just as good as older fiber ones, but they go crooked part of the time it seems.I have federal one piece hard plastic seal and cushion here, they use under their sabot loads, that the cushion part is real short in the middle of it and it crushes straight all the time.Doesn't cushion much. But you know all they got to do is use slower shotgun powders, and extreme or no cushioning isn't needed. It is like the tall shotwads with seal attached to bottom, for steel shot, that are not cushioned, they just use slower powders. Like longshot, alliant steel, blue dot, etc. Ed |
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Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so. If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as high as others who have to set up complete machines. We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to have similiar design as the ones pictured below but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show what is needed, and what the full size specs should be. With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal. We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5 58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these, as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for 58cal cast slugs, by different companies. The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round. 40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents. Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my 585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so. They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets. Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned. Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on actions like this and great value for no more than they cost. This one only 100 bucks. We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier smooth barrels. Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of, a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them. 2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express HERE on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job on nice looking slug gun.Ed |
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The sabots we are working with, take about 15 different 58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of sabot at.733" with all of them in. There are 4 Dixie Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of. Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses. Examples-58cal (.575"- .578") Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights. Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc. And they are all good slugs at a saving especially when folks cast their own. I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with. Some stuff about sabots. I get questions about how to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not fullbore cast....Why, they want lighter for less recoil in regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper, they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second, one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas. Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup, an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it, to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have setup on NEFs, and CBCs. Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock, and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid. Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the extra weight. |
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I love this thread. |
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Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well and even these sabots we want to get made, open up. The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy. The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening. We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some due the economy. Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action. Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on. And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case. 4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones. It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern 20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed |
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I have one of those Husky's, but the left barrel is rifled- straight. It is .705" groove to groove, so a tight 13 bore, while it is chambered for the 16 bore brass case. The serial # puts it made around 1900. Husky data shows the smooth bore, a 16 bore, is meant for paper cases with shot from it's modified choke, while the rifled barrel is meant for a brass case with round ball and black powder load. It shoots to the sights with 3 drams of 2f BP, filler wads and a patched .662" or naked .684" naked ball. The cloth patched balls are more accurate from the straight rifling and due to the lubricated patch, there is no fouling buildup shot to shot. |
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Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots. In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as straight as possible for accuracy. Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy. Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore with breach hole we got EDM'd into it. Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the "Lethal" and the "destructor". Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore. Nice beautifal old gun.Ed |
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I think we found good overall sabot design that will be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple. It is same simple design as the ones pictured above but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact for more room for our slow powder loads, and when using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges of slower powder, better velocity with less case expansion, and more reloads possible. We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots for penetration until now.. They did very well, two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried timber, pushing out some wood on the back. Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF. Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game. Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier, and cast harder for any need.And compared to other way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs compared to short fullbore ones.... Here are pictures of molds that can make cast 58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working on.There are many makers and brands and styles of molds and weights available. Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel. The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100. Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has. Great looking gun..Ed |
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You can easily increase the weight fo the .58 minnies by turning the plunger down and shortening the hole it makes in the end of the minnie bullet - all the way to solid is expansino isn't needed, or it fits well in a .58 bore. With heavier charges or the faster burning powders & if of pure lead, the solid .58's will slug up to fill the grooves (if any) of the barrel. Also, since they fit the sabot in that situation, they do not obtruate and get out of balance as could happen with thin skirts. |
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Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration, with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple. In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed. They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed. I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in 2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them down to 350 gr and less. Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with, and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady. In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel. Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above. Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga.. Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure, You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches. Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"-- all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load. The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal. The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus. The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi. The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi. The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi. The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores. Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure. AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads, heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure. Possibilities are really great fun. Ed |
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Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding 58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer. We are working on it. Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy. Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting the accuracy. On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip. |
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Love your work Ed and love this line too "The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal. " |
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Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer. Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads. The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in 36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little. Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds. This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels. For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore.. Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also. I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads. Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would allow it to tip or go off center. Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and 700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to 50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore. Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed |
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With an other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate 5 for 5. Going 2000fps. Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks, 10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types. A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at.. And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made. Bertram getting ready to make the last die; done later this month and will be doing cases then. Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included. He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a real good deal.. He will ship whole bulk order to me. I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run. I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others, to fill orders, and collectors. Get 100 for 300 bucks, or be a 500 guy buying a 167 cases for 500 bucks. I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets and get it to me and I send them on to him. I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge. Want to make the run as big as possible. Got money ready to go for over 700. Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.Ed |
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Nice to see an Aussie connection helping out Ed. |
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Hey Ed, how's that 2 bore coming along? I like the idea of a cheapish huge caliber rifle, any updates on the drawings you mentioned producing for sale? Cheers, Ash. |
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Sorry, late in posting, bad weather, computer lines zapped again. Can't find time to work on 2bore yet.Haven't got barrel drilled yet. Some more experimenting with the Accutip sabots, Designed a two ball load using .577" cast lead balls. Bottom ball flattened a little in vise with the flats up and down in sabot. Used a fold crimp, 3.5" once fired REM case in NEF, long rifled barrel.....Fold crimp goes down on the top ball...Round balls 285gr each, going about 190 hit within 2 inches at 30 yds. Those 58 cal inside Accutip sabots are really versatile. Tested 3 shots with 58cal Buffalo hollowpoint, hollowbase, lead, muzzleloading slugs, 2" at 30yds. All loads with plastic x12x seal and white felt cushion under sabot. Experimenting with an Enfield, had one set up with my 700HE 3.25, and just did one in my longer 700HE. Did little longer port and added little more weight.First picture. 2nd picture is a neat 3 barrel 16ga, which if I had it,deepen chamber, I'd have a neat 16ga FH....Ed PS---We are gaining on getting the big run of brass made for our 585HE. He is finishing the tooling and soon be producing. We want make the run as big as possible so everyone is welcome to help. You in US get in on first order, cases are $3 each.Those in the US he'll send whole order to me bulk freight, a big savings, and I'll get them to the parties involved, no charge for helping out on first run.The $3 cost is a great bargain compared to other big bore cases and if you buy 150 or so you've saved enough, over the cost of others to buy a barrel to make 585HE gun with. My contact--- gunowner at journey.com For those in Australia,Canada,South Africa,UK, and other countries send pmt to Bertram and he'll send cases to you individually when done. Right now can't afford export costs to send cases back out of US... . |
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For you folks in Australia, Bertram is getting ready to make the run of my 585HE cases. Would there be a bunch of you interested in a group buy, of the cases right direct from him. If so, no time like now, and he will be able to make more runs later, whenever needed, as the production of my cases works along with continuing orders of another cartridge he has to make every month or two.. I can't ship economically to you from US, when you there can get from him for 3 bucks US each. And Manson Reamers here in US can supply reamers, CH4D in US has the die sets. It is perfect case for bolt guns and falling blocks, and I even have it in break actions. A light load is 750 gr at 22-2300, and any action a 505 Gibbs fits into will do 585HE. And I have loads all tested, developed. I plan on using the rest of my days making this case the best and most used 577/585 big bore. I'm also posting this message for African and Canadian shooters. Time to step out and join the fun......ED |
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Here is picture of the two ball sabot load, using two 58cal balls in a 12ga Accutip style sabot. Hoping we will have sabot like above for reloading soon, in volumn so we can load and test a bunch of these 58cal bullets and slugs. There are soft cast, hard cast, and the heavier jacketed. These all work in my 585HE also. The 440gr hollowbase ones loose in the big box on left measure in at .585" and work great in my 585HE cases. Part of my 585HEs are smooth barrels guns just for testing the different style guns, and different loads. In the one smooth barreled one I have on BBK action, shooting my 585HE with 440 gr hollowbased Minie slug, we were hitting 8 inch paper plate with them going about 2700 at 30yds. Hollowbased they act like shotgun slug at short ranges. Will be neat deal to shoot them in 12ga accutip style sabots in rifled 12 gauges and the smoothbore 585HEs with $30 barrels. Here is picture of Pedretti(Beretta style) that came as 10ga. I have monoblocked in 585 barrel. In picture there is 585HE case partly out of chamber. I have extra fairly heavy 10ga barrel also and changes in 2 minutes. And that monoblock break action locks up like a bank vault.Real strong. And an ultimate big bore from history.ED |
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We hope a company will be making our modeled 12ga sabots soon, this fall, to deliver to reloaders and suppliers.. We also got first part of funds collected for the initial big run for our 585HE long cases being made. Sending in bunch this week, and need more to make run bigger For more info if your interested contact me. We, others, and 'VdoMemorie' on the Cast Bullet forums and Shotgun World are experimenting with 58cal Minie slugs and 58cal round balls in 20ga wadcups, and find it is away to slug load your 20ga economically. You can use 20ga Commander wad and also shorter "sporting 20 short" wad from BPI. I cut bottom off of commander and use felt wads and 20ga obturator seal with .575" 470gr minie slug and got 4" group at 30 yds, with smooth barrel. That is with heavy thick,smooth barrel I put in CBC below. Here is picture of the CBC break action that I mono-blocked in smooth super heavy, thick 20ga barrel..30" long, chambered for 3.5" cases. Works great with 3.5" plastic or brass cases. Here is picture of the 1887 WIn with my 585HE in it. I put in a heavy barrel and different kind of extractor Barrel is 28".. I like putting my 585HE in all the old style of guns, just to show all the uses the case has. I found supply of super long bmg cases to make my 700HE Long cases. It is 4.27" long and holds over 370 gr ball powder, 1000gr at 3400 plus. I have it in my Vulcan BMG bolt action and I just got one done in a MRC PH bolt gun, in picture below...Ed |
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I found pics of a factory 12ga over under that has bottom barrel rifled, top one smooth with chokes. Will have pics few days. Also pics of 585HE case samples from the first run of my 585HE cases, Bertram is doing.ED |
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Good news, We got a few samples from the first production run of 585HE cases from Bertram, to test for strength and measure for uniformity. They all measure perfect and especially the belt length headspace, which was all within the .270" length minus .004".specs I asked for. He made part of run, about a 1000 without headstamp..And over 3000 with headstamp. Over 4000 total. Cases only 3 bucks each, if you get in on the first bulk shipment right away..Still time before he ships.I want as many bulk freight shipped as we can. Got money in for about 1000 so far. The few he shipped by mail to test, cost $1.50 postage each, so that is why we want to get the numbers in the much cheaper bulk freight order as big as possible.Folks in AUS order direct from him. I tested some moderate loads(650gr @ 2400) in NEF, CBC, Pedretti break actions and didn't need sizing on the bottom 2/3. Cases fell out. Real tough built cases, Fired couple 650gr at 3000 in Enfield and extracted ok, and resized ok back down to specs.About a 62k psi load. Pockets tight. He supplies same base cases for 408 Cheytac, used with hot military sniper loads that run real high average pressures.So maybe we have a winner.He will be making these Cheytac case runs regular so we can get our cases made anytime we get money built up for a run.Here are pictures. First is old on left and new on the right sectioned, showing how heavy built the new cases are, as well as Cheytacs he makes that has same base inside.Our 585 is belted and he uses different header, than for the Cheytac/Gibbs bases one which uses a header with no belt. Second is top view of cases new and old. On the left is 4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped, and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp. He made a 1000 without headstamp and over 3000 with stamp. Third side view with some in # 31 holders.No special holders needed. Notice how uniform belts are. 4th is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe have a military use, saving brass and use smaller actions than bmg and 14.5 Russ. With about the same power as a bmg. Ed Here is the breach picture of that 12ga O/U made by Armi-Lumar. It has the bottom barrel rifled right from factory, top barrel smooth, with interchangeble chokes. A real neat gun. |
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Ed, Ripp's thread on Montana Rifle Company got me to notice the low price of the big 505Gibbs PH rifle. Wow! Just over $2k for a Gibbs. Beats CZ by almost a grand. Have you considered working with Montana Rifle Company to get some version of the 585 offered in that $2K safari rifle? I know you gave them a lot of support during the times many on that other forum were complaining about the slow development time for the PH action. A nasty crowd over there. Well the action is done. Now a very reasonably price complete rifle built around that action. It would be nice to have a source of loaded ammo. Superior? I would assume from a manufacturing point of view you would want the rim exactly to 505 specs. I like the 3" case version, but; I am certain that a 3.25 chamber would not hurt anything and be more flexible. I would be nice if there was offering a practical hunting load like 750gr @2100 fps, in addition to a bragging rights (12,000? ft-lb)load. A level I and II choice. The trick really would be for Montana to agree to chamber any version of your 585 for ~$2K in a no frill package. Ammo availability might promote sales. I have to agree a bbl band seems almost mandatory these days. Even low cost Ruger 375's went that route with a little complaining. You might pass that along if you have an opportunity. |
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After a bunch of cases are here I will talk to them, I didn't know about complete Gibbs rifle build, Maybe get the new Jamison Co to make cases and loaded rounds., Also plan in future approaching Ruger and Hornady who work together, to start with #1, easiest to do first. Here is overall view of the Armi-Lumar O/U 12ga that has one barrel rifled. Second is another view of the breach. Nice looking gun. Here is picture of the 58cal Minie bullets in 20ga BPI Commander shotcup wads, and some 50cal bullets in 20ga BPI Sport shotcups. Sport wads were too small inside and to tapered inside for 58 cal. Other two are 458 bullets in a non-discarding base that had SPW, Buckhamer type slugs in them, that someone took apart, that I got. Last, 100yd group shot by Ajay on ShotgunWorld with Sav 220 20ga, with 20ga Commander wad and 58cal cast Minie bullets. Ed |
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Good group, Ed. What speed & what weight of minnie? Slight yaw showing on all of the holes-mostly on the bottom 3. |
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Ajay shot those, I think it was 450 gr or so Minie. Going about 1600. Quite good considering he is using plain old thin sided shotcups. Ed |
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First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns. Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have 12ga barrel for it.. Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting with putting on a thumbhole stock. Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links, if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed |
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In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad. You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad. And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad. CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds. And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads. . It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal. It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length. Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up. There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is 54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps. Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass. Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture.. Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta, and the Magtech 199 shown above. Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom. We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads with a interchangeable chokes. Ed |
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Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load. We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner. Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture.. We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman 12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit. I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the unneeded front of the sear and the action metal above, giving room to the back for cases that are 3.9" overall loaded length. Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets, Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok, and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base. As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie. There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400. Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World set this one up Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder. It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers like slow RE-17 . It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging peak pressurs down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE33 the basecup only expanded .002". And the Fiocchis are the softest bases around.Ed |
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Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller 45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them. This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum. More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500 they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on right is factory SPW. Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this 12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off. That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders. Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier. Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585 barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up 24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed |
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Geezuz those copper pills look like rocket ships! |
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.5's?? |
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Those boat tail bullets are 30cal in 45 caliber sbaots. Look big due to closeup.Ed |
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And here I am thinking they are more of your monsters Ed |
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First picture is of nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock. Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead roundball with section of copper tube, with wads inside, bpgs seal on the bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work. Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4 ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga. Just glue top card in.Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going over 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup. Next is a Mossy 390 with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun, and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed |
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Tell me more about that '87, please? One in .70-150 would be too much fun. |
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He had a short real heavy barrel put on, stock checkered and carved, great bluing job.I didn't do any of that, I'm helping get the best loads with short brass RMC cases. He had it worked on to feed short 2 5/8 brass cases and crimped 3" plastic cases from the magazine, I got short case load that gets 600gr bullet to 1900 for him.Ed |
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With a 12 bore ball weighing 583gr. (.730" - pure) along with the copper tubing, probably .032" wall along with the steel screw, the weight would be over 600gr. - no slouch and an excellent idea. I've a feeling I should try this in the rifled Mossberg pump. If a person could find some 5/8" ID pipe, it should run about 11/16" (687") OD. With a wad centered, tube filled and screwed tightly to the ball, the base wad would obturate to seal the powder gasses behind it and take the rifling as would a groove diameter ball (.724" in my 12 bore Mossberg), thus should shoot quite well. Length could be adjusted for best accuracy in whatever twist happens to be in the gun - ie: 35" or whatever you have. The copper tubing (or aluminum - some comes in standard ID measurements, while most copper is outside diameter) would not ride on the rifling at all, kind of a wasp waist bullet, reducing pressure and allowing higher velocities, if deemed necessary. It is amazing what and how deeply a hardened 12 bore ball will actually penetrate if driven 1,500fps or faster. According to Samuel Baker, through and through an elephant's head, ie: 'exit'. Sounds deep enough to me. Thanks for this thread, Ed - MUCH food for thought with most of the thought already spelled out and tested. |
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Do you think a 10 gauge with slug style bullets would work in a greener GP? Or is it too big to fit? Thanks Ed! |
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A full length 3.5" 10 ga case will bind up going in and out of the action. Even have tight fit with long 12ga.Ed |
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Bugger, was hoping for a quick and cheap way into a 10 gauge rifle. Thanks Ed. |
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I love the Greener and I have my 585HE in one, but I wish they were bigger with thicker sides, for real big stuff. Well you can set up inexpensive in other guns.Go smoothbore and experiment and get some 50-70yd accurate smoothbore 10ga setups with the BPI VP100 wadcups and hollowbase 69cal Minie bullets. And then get the heavy bull barrel NEF 10ga goose gun, the newer SB2 models.The long barrel is best with hairy loads They are alloy frame, heat treated strong and will take our slow powder loads of about 2000 fps.Ed. |
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Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length as 3' plastic crimped little long. Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall 10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga. Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above. Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used in wads as opposed to fullbore. Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about 4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have. And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel. Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads. Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs. Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get 85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi instead of 65,000...Ed |
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We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs. The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case. Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded only a little, and those cases are soft ones. We have big bunch of the sabots here now. All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up. With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting. Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean.. The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness. Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds. Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit... You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun), that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots. It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups, miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best. Interested in sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228 THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage. Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included, with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed |
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Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets. Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr. 2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft 1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around. Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies. If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller. Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp. I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown. To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping. You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good. After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. . More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights. Hit. paper plate at 50 yds. As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun), that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much. For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best. FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50. For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62. Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems. In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5" I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using 480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577" Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228 THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage. Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included. Or $20 for 50 postage included.. .Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order. to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr......Ed |
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Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr 58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots. Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to get them and get loads working. A little levity in this process.Ed |
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Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights...... First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots., But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum cushion wads. The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases. Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug. For 440gr max of 55gr Steel For 400gr max of 57gr Steel For 360gr max of 59gr Steel For 490gr max of 52gr Steel. For 510gr max of 49gr Steel For 540gr max of 47gr Steel. I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting. Many of you need to get in on the fun. Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press. Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock for Ruger 77 in 585HE. And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that. Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore.. Whoppee.....Ed |
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The sabots aren't moving fast at all and I got to money back out of them right way, and seeing as how we're low on slugs to send with the sabots, in big numbers, and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots and set up so they can be selling the sabots, so we will try selling them fast a few weeks longer. So to get these moving out and getting tested and we pay our bills,we will be having sale on just the sabots, in larger amounts only. We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so the guys can see what we have found that works. Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags of sabots fit in, that has an affordable postage cost to pay, we have to sell these in 200, 300, and 400 size orders.. So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included, 300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping incl. Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68 plus shipping. There was dozens of guys the last few years all over the internet that bought undersize junk, that wanted good sabots and complained that the ones they bought elsewhere didn't work...... I haven't heard from most of them, So guys please get around quick and help us out here..MO, Check, Paypal..Ed |
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The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case, next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture.. Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in. Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case. Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them. |
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Hi Ed - I sent you a private message concerning wads. |
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I answered as follows.Info eor everyone. I can't ship no reloading stuff out of US without expensive export liceanses and I have get one for each shipment. To make it pay someone might have to buy 50,000 from mfg and do the paperwork, give gov money, and set up as a seller in their country. And I don't know if mfg would want to do the paperwork. I'm going to ask and find out. Which would be fine with me. I'd like to see sellers in Canada, Australia, South Africa, UK, EU, etc..ED |
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Thanks Ed - certainly answered my questions. |
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What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help. First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting barrel can start sabot or slug crooked. And more important item that causes a lack of accuracy is if the base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked. On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand which tapers a bit. Easy to see. Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball flattened, put in the bottom and a 400gr Minie above, two different styles of Minies. Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize 12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use for them. I made them after Paul in Alaska asked about where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like. They still use 50cal slug.. Ed |
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Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs.. 20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison. Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support. Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr, but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs. Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing 145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super big. Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots. Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now. Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread, to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second. TheFiringLine third. AR fourth...Ed |
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We have moved few thousand sabots.More here. Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made. A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585 with the solid turned CEB bullets in them. Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed. Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed Speed..Multiplier 1500------5 1600------5.7 1700------6.42 1800------7.2 1900------8 2000------9 2100------9.8 2200------10.75 2300------11.75 2400------12.8 2500------13.9 2600------15 2700------16.2 2800------17.4 2900------18.7 3000------20 |
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Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that you can get molds for from Lyman, Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter. A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded, 650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed |
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One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759. It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy. My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759. Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves. Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here. He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns, and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if problems occur go to 4759. What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The 4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the good rifling marks impressed into our sabots. I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components. Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed |
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Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like the faster powder did for him. .. Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet. The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp 180 degree crimp down on top of it. We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case 1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana. Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder. Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps. The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture, single shots and checking couple lever actions. Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed |
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funny gun law and like allways in such a situation people looking for a clever interpreting. my first thought was its made for the civil war breech loading carbines to make them like muzzle loader by law. this is the right thing for the german 40 mm long lancaster bullet cartridges especially if you work with the Gras carbine. many of them were sporeterized as cheap shotguns in 20,24,28 and 32 ga. it would be possible to rifle the shotgun barrel making the gun barrel diameter the land diameter and shot the 40mm long brass case with lead bullets in this. if the gras action is still original the 32 ga brass is the right stuff and fit the 11 mm gras bolt head. btw, .54 muzzle loader bullets fit like a glove in 32ga magtech brass. 50 Smith brass and plastik case,50 Maynard,54 Gallager, 54 Sharps( one of the different cases design popular for replica sharps in europe) 56 Spencer CF,56 Spencer CF(different case) 32/40 with 54 cal Muzzle loader bullet, 28/40 for my Husqvarna 17a, 20/40, 17mm Danish Snider RF, 18mm French Tabatiere |
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Law is just a deal to shorten ranges bullets carry for safety in crowded areas. The Gras in the picture is 16ga, and they even made a 12ga. They also in 1880s coverted the original 11mm to 8mm Lebel. Guy wants to see what is possible with the 585. The 585HI would be perfect for Nosin Nagant. There are a million of them. And there plenty of cases to make them from. Would work in all the short actions that are the vogue now, get rid of the small bore junk...Ed |
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In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots .Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies and sometimes you have to use different wads.. In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with 12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price, You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass. The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted, straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big run of cases made in a factory. Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds. Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt. The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed |
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Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun powder but made it much smaller using much more of the slower 4759. There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get them or don't cast their own....... Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch our 585 cases imported for sales there I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to the loads we set up.Our favorite is 900gr at 2300. in plastic case. Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal, 60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet. Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600. Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet tapered a little and fit inside thr hollwbase of the bullet....Ed |
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Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH. Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our 12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use 577 NE bullets also. For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5" Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use 577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases. Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever, and can be run higher pressures and still last forever. You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also. AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14 that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks, 1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon. Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed. It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine. |
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Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size. Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone, so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE 3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to 540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE. And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and cheaper if you cast your own. Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels. Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks. Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks... In back some of the cases and die sets. Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels, 1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper to .980 inch at the muzzle. Setting up 4 more on Enfields through the winter. Ed |
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Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers. And case expand a lot and are harder to resize, But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits those cases and still chambers ok. Not a sloppy fit. So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use the Magtech brass and ,850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs. Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit. The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr, and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short case can hold. It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions. These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual 12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to minimum specs so cases don't over expand.ED Here is the ytube URL again for our guy shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in. www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc |
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Thanks for making the wads happen in Canada through Jeff White - I got a couple bags of wads and am now about ready to begin experimenting. I have a couple moulds if .575 and .580 as well as STEEL and H's Longshot, IMR 4759 powder along with a can of Blue Dot. Have you tested any loads with the Lee R.E.A.L. .58 bullet? - at 440gr. in pure lead? The other one I have is a .575 or .577 in the Lyman Enfield minnie bullet at about 560gr. I expect I'll changed the shape of the HB plunger to a thicker skirt and increase the weight to about 580gr. |
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I haven't tested REAL slugs but they might work if they are about .575-578".... I find lots of Minies which I like best as they are cheap and work with slower twists better, so I never tried the REALs... I just found about 350 of the .575" old style Lyman Minie in two batches for 79 bucks shipping included. Ed |
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The R.E.A.L's need a wad inside the base of the cup, I'd think due to their short length. I just loaded up some double round ball loads for testing - I'll have to wait for warmer weather now - entering a bit of a colder snap. |
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Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop the skirts from deforming, or wads getting pushed into the hollow base. I found that dense dow foam works good, I was using glue gun, but the dense foam is easier, cut plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make it a tight fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam.... Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug with foam pressed into the base.. How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI 24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed. The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases, drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made. And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage, even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. . Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5" model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for slightly longer stroke.Ed |
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Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals. Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded to match 577NE power. Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels. Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia. It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums. Built by his smith who has a reamer. Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels, Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed |
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Haven't posted much lately, nice to see ne developments. Still want to build an original 12 from hell on a heavy NEF slugger, just having trouble finding a donor gun for a good price. Of course, with the biggest thing in IA to shoot being whitetails, I might have to travel and find a bear. |
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Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE and getting 585 cases made, as many as possible... We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks. Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds 458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that was pulled out and they wouldn't stay in tight. Sabot was a loose fit in 20ga, made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib, fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. Fits real tight to give good resistance for good ignition. Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal ML. With 250 gr bullet in 585 will go about mach 4. Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed |
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Browning has come out with a bolt action 12 bore rifle. It has the appearance of an "A" Bolt rifle, with a much larger bolt and of course a good stiff barrel. Unfortunately, the rifle is about $1,150.00 here. |
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Daryl, one of the chaps in our club bought a Browning A-bolt in 12g and brought it to a club shoot. He was using Hornady Sabot slugs and it was very easy to shoot and very accurate. Build quality was typical A-bolt, however it performed very well. Waidmannsheil. |
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It has been around for a number of years, but expensive, Has a real tight barrel and is undersize for our 12ga sabot compared to savages and nefs, and a guy out west here had to go to a slower powder to get good accuracy in his Browning.. Regular shotgun powders tore up sabot in his Browning.. He got a deer with it with our sabot and right powder.. A lot of factory sabots are smaller diameter than ours and work in tight barrels right out of the box. |
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Tks for the info. Fora 12 bore bolt gun, they looked pretty good. A recent mangazine - maybe Rifle, has an article on them with sabot loads tested for accuracy at 100yards. My Mossberg m835 has a .724" groove diameter - sung. I've a few rounds loaded with the .58 sabot and double round ball loads, but so far, haven't papered it. I thought they might make good Spring Black Bear loads. Good to note about the sabot diameters - thanks again. |
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First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankunter with his Ruger #1. If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed |
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Here is picture of 100 cases loaded with CEB solid nose bullets and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. . Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs, and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and 315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells. I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases. Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil, to our 585HE the strongest yet. The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the 577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder, then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3" and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all over the British Empire, by the tens of millions. Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a 24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And stamp the caseheads 24 ga. For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga. The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made. We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much, with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem. Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH, break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case. Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size. So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power. .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc. Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed |
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Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot, which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a special made hollowed out long roll crimper. Getting some more interest in our 585HE. An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5 cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times. And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using 3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800. Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads. I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. . Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice like me can do..... A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back.. The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE, for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber, and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed |
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650 at 3,300fps = 15,721 fpe = yikes. |
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For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about mach 4 with a top load.. Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long. It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a bunch of them and so does McGowen. Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH. It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would work in our 12ga sabot.. But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE. Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out. Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a way to keep them together group wise.Ed |
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Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght, Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug. . There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site; Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings.. https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish. Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs. Enfield in back, you can see it is longer. And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED |
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The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game, necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets. One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum, was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder. They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt. Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds 180gr under a 750gr'. We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter, and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck, if they could have found couple barrels full. But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies, multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions, which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings, and moderate loads, last forever.. For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns, (not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough. To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G, wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help. Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed |
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Probably first 375 caliber cartridge made from 585HE necked down, the 375 Warlord. Guy did a real nice job, with what looks similiar to a Weatherby style shoulder. Kinda outdoes Weatherby & Cheytac. We have cases with no headstamps for wildcatters. First picture I got sent me today off of facebook and this one is from the great sniperforums. Another fellow is planning on shortening the 585HE to maybe 2.4", for use Marlins and Henrys, and other leverguns, redoing their 45-70s. With the belt they will have good headspace control. Without a rim that takes up circular space, say like our 24ga FH, a 585 bore, but which is perfect with a rim for break actions like our 24ga FH in a Magtech...Ed |
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Here are couple 24ga FHs in break actions, a CBC with monoblocked a 585 barrel into, and a guys NEF he monoblocked in a 585 barrel. The 585 barrels are perfect fit for 24ga and 585 Minie Bullets are a perfect for barrel and 24ga case fit. Another matter--- I know it seems like I'm begging for help when I ask guys on the net for help at times. . But I really am in a bind. That is the truth, Our small income disappeared from our farms truck garden business as my my knees are shot and can't hardly walk, I can't do field work, etc. And the wife's lung condition got so bad she can't work, nearly invalid. We need extra money to try to keep our health fixed up and pay bunch of back bills and utilities. As well needed to pay for traveling to doctors, treatments,drugs, etc. Could you all maybe get together with others on these forums and kinda take up a collection to help get me out of my troubles and debt. Like 10 or so bucks each put into my paypal account as gifts. And if you want to mail it, use email below to have me get you my mailing address. The Paypal email is je@gunownerstv.com Best Regards- Ed PS-- I really need help. Not a astronomocal amount, but fairly fast. We never made anything on the 12ga FH work and research. The little coming from sale of our 585 brass, dies, barrels, etc, we try to pay to the places, where the money is owed, for getting them made..Ed |
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Here is picture of a lightweight Barnes bullet in 24ga FH. Guys cut the back off of 750gr bullet off to get 500gr weight. Here is picture 58 cal Minie slug that's little long on the side for our 12ga sabot, with the front of the slug above the grooves swaged to fit in sabot. The swaged front third of the slug fits next to the internal ridge in sabot and the sabot doesn't bulge out.Just run front into a die and punch it back out. And some info about 12ga FH and other hopped up shotgun slug loads, You know we like to use the rifle, IE slower than shotgun, powders. We like to use IMR 4759 for some loads and RE17 for others where we have room for larger charges. Those two powders are ignited ok in large diameter cases like 12ga, 10ga, 16ga, etc, without needing BMG primers. But we have always been looking for easy to ignite powders of the RE17 type, when cold, that has a speed between IMR 4759 and the RE17. RE17 uses different process to put the deterrents in the powder to control speeds, which allows much easier ignition, compared to big majority of rifle powders with all the deterrent on the outside. There are some out there made by Nitrochemie Switzerland, who makes RE17, RE26, RE33, etc, for Alliant. It's the ' RELOAD SWISS' brand available for those in UK and Europe, They are called RS 40, about same speed as RE12, RS 50 & 52, same speed as RE15, RE60 & 62 same as RE17. Also one ' Vihta Vouri ' powder called TR140 available over there, that Nitrochemie made.. Many guys can't get IMR 4759 anymore, some can't get RE17. I'd like to get some of RS 40-50-52 powders or V V TR140 into the states, would really be great help for hairy slug load work. And guys in UK/EU now can load some real hairy, slow powder, slug loads, even though not having IMR 4759....Ed |
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We got guys wildcatting our 585HE case, Here is picture of that 375 Warlord next to our 585 case he made it from. He is going to make couple later necked down to 416, and 458. There is another guy working on doing one necked down to 357 wildcat. Here is a picture of our poster Biebs on AR, 585 HE, in a MPI stock. He used a big Enfield action, with a fancy jeweled bolt. We found couple other big actions for our 585, that can even feed really long overall length loaded cases, like 4.5" long or more, if you are using long pointed bullets for real long range target and hunting work. One is Lawton 8000 Cheytac action, and the other is Stiller Cheytac actions made similar, just a newer version. Both actions come in 1.45" diameter and a 1.60" diameter receivers. And Vestals Gunsmithing in Virginia does great work, decent prices, has these actions and will build you fancy 585 HEs. .. He has, working with another guys mag box setup, setup an extra long, good working, single stack, center feed, magazine..He has one of our 585 HE reamers on hand, we have barrels....Ed |
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Here we kill two birds with one stone so to speak, Best case sizer is the MEC Collet Super Sizer and it can double as a case holder when we roll crimp. Much better hold than the ones made to hold cases for crimping, that cost a lot. Save cost of a holder, plus have best sizer around Here is couple different setups our guys checking for our 585HE in a long, Lawton Cheytac action. First laminated thumbhole stock. Second in a Hogue Compstock. The action can mount a scope rail like shown on the table in 1st picture or a receiver sight in 2nd picture. The scope rail is a piccatiny type. The stocks used were wide ones for REM long actions, just add recoil block ahead of recoil inleting for the longer action, drill new screw hole Open the stock forward to original bolt hole for longer cases and mag. About Enfields for our case, one of my favorites, Some don't like the sporterizing, welding bottom metal straight. Many think straightening is a huge job needing special jigs. Easier just use one being added on for a jig with a bolt, to weld on the straight extension, Do top weld, then cut old extension that is under off with a thin cutting wheel, then weld bottom. When we bolt the short piece on the one we are straightening, we grind the short slant off so the added piece lays on there flat. The one you cut off can be used as the top extension for the next one!!! Just keep on building...Ed |
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Thank you for posting on here Ed & thanks for your help with my 12bore & 8bore loads to ! I think that Mec sizer idea is sweet to, thanks for that ! I have a few of those Enfields (P14's here) in the draw some already sporterizied (nice trick on the mag welding), I just hate that safety & the lack of nice stocks for them, also now days only want my over 45's in SXS ! |
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Thankyou, yes I like the MEC sizer, makes cases better than new. Richards in California makes good laminated stocks for Enfields. The stocks I like best and I'm not a fancy stock guy, are the Hogue stocks, and their hollow butt is easy to put weight into for our heavier recoiling cartridge. Filled full of rubber coated steel balls.. That is the old computer mouse balls. Now they are not made specifically for Enfields, but ones for long action Howa/Vanguard/SW1500, fits good with a little extra work. And there are many pillar bedded ones for sale on Gun Broker. Ed |
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Here is a fancy stocked 24ga FH built on a NEF, built by a guy in Canada. Its straight back, high comb stock, handles recoil great.Neat looking work... Ed About our 2.17" 585 BB case for lever guns, pistols, etc,. It is made from our 585 case cut back to 2.17" long. With loaded length of about 2.8" work in lever guns, etc. Work in 71s, later 1886s, Henry steel frames made for 45-70. One guy is putting one in single shot action set up with Contender style pistol grip for testing in long rifle barrel, to simulate pistol recoil..Be very brisk recoil in a case that holds 110 gr powder under a light Minie bullet. Maybe work in a Rossi Judge with heavy barrel. Or rolling block rifles and pistols...Gonna try one in 1887. Got first one in one of our guys Greener GP for testing.. In some ways big bore shotguns and rifles are sexy. By looking at the shape of the fire and smoke cloud.... Thanks for picture, to the great NitroExpress Forums site. Here is picture of another neat sporterizing deal for Enfields. On those without rear bridge pocket welded up, we just mill down and shape it so debth of the pocket matches bottom section of weaver rail and screw or epoxy it in. Shape to drive in hole tight. Can use as a rear scope ring mount or mount for peep sight like a compact UTG sight...Ed |
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A poster reading our threads said '' I'm slowly becoming a recoilapheliac''.. That is neat term , and very glad that folks are catching the big bore fever. Here is a simple, yet neat peep sight we can use on the rear sporterized bridges of Enfields, and it works on other rear bridges also. I like peep sights the best for most shooting. You can get them with flat bottoms also for bridges that are flat on top. Another picture of the 585 HE one of our guys put in the MPI stock.. On straight sided cases like our 585 HE the die set has a mouth expander die to make it easy to insert bullets. The die flares the mouth, but I always felt that doing what is really a relative relatively sharp flare, and then roll crimping the same area of the case.shortens case life. So I just use expander plug out of the die, by hand, using just the bottom of of the expander plug and just push it in a little, wobble it around a small amount, bullet goes in ok, case mouths last longer, good for dozens of loads, with moderate hunting and target loads.Only takes a few seconds and less work that has to be done in the press ... Ed |
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Here is picture of a hard plastic molded shotgun case, holding a slug, without crimping, a company is experimenting with. This one with light slug supposed to do over 2000 fps. Here is video by Corlanes Sporting, Dawson Creek, BC, CAN. Known as, Rocky Mtn Rifles, video on Youtube of them testing our 585 HE in a barreled action, they are building for a guy. They are shooting it into their big bullet trap with test load.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vzQjRGfT1A Allan and Grant Swan in Australia are building 585HE for a guy, the second they built. First one killed the buff pictured earlier . AHR and Vestals will make folks here in US a 585 HE. Here is another view of a Lawton action big enough for 585HE.. Here is picture of Rossi SS with 585 barrel mono-blocked into it, chambered for our 585 BB 2.17" case, to do testing in a light rifle with just pistol grip to simulate the case in pistols. Others going to put case in leverguns, autoloaders. We got plenty of cases Ed |
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Here is picture of a great old time 8bore double. I like those old outside hammer, big bore guns. The style of most break actions singles aren't the greatest, that we we used for 12ga FH, 10ga FH, other caliber barrels we mono-blocked in them like .585" bore for 585HE and 24ga FH.. One that is close that we have, is the Magtech. Well the guys have found one that is super strong lockup and looks real nice. And has the good quality look. It comes 12ga light shot barrel, soon be monoblocked to rifled 24ga FH, the little brother of the 585HE. We told company if they did them with NEF style, rifled, heavy slug barrel, for shotgun caliber only hunters, they couldn't make them fast enough. Here is picture of 585HE, In an Enfield that Bret and Darrel in Minn set up with great camo finish, with nice brake job. It is in a Hogue, recoil reducing, rubber coated, Compstock.Great job they did.. Ed Here is picture from the rear of the Enfield we mounted the short Weaver rail piece on. It is mounted in the sight pocket that the actions have; Can hold scope ring or a rear peep sight like UTG makes.. Ed Bertrams Is going to make the long 12ga FH drawn cases, contact him and maybe get in on the first run if want to make gun for them. Ed |
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A fellow PM'd me about sabots and I can't get return answer to go through. Please email me. Ed . 585he@cmsinter.net |
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We will have arrived when we have this big bore in our back yard, Kind of a neat suppressor, Here is folder shotgun guys set up as 24ga FH. Here is another view of what we feel is a nearly perfect break action. Guy is making a strong 24ga FH with it. Here is picture of a 585HE MRC PH a guy set up.. Here is picture of our shorter 585 BB for leverguns, etc, with a variety of bullets..Ed |
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Here is a Midland break action a guy is doing in 24ga FH. Here is old catalog picture of different stuff used in old days for shotgun loads. Some would be hairy in brass cases Here is picture of a MN a guy is doing 585HE in.. It is singleshot. Redid bolt handle mounted it on the bolt further bac, so the port could be lengthened for our long case. Needs polishing and blueing, scope rail added.Ed |
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There are guys on Castboolits forum experimenting with locking on plastic bases securely on slugs. Making their own front heavy ones for smoothbores. Here is picture of our 585BB case next to long 585HE. Here is another view of the great camo job on the 585HE Enfield, a top view. Ed |
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About the local fellow here making 375 wildcat with our 585 case- Hello Mr. Hubel, We just got back on Saturday from competing at the King of 2 Miles Match in New Mexico. We won! I came in first shooting my rifle (the one I brought over and showed you), chambered in .375 Lethal Magnum, the round I designed based off of your case. I’m attaching a bunch of pictures, feel free to post any of them that you want. I do have one picture of the screen of the camera system looking at the 2500-yard target. The hit farthest to the left and the hit farthest to the right were my 1st and 2nd shots. I’m getting more interest in this cartridge now that the results from this match are spreading across the web. Happy 4th! Take care, Mitchell Fitzpatrick Lethal Precision Arms 1(989)578-2576 -------------------------------------- Will have pics soon, his case is close to 375 Warlord case with a shorter neck, and longer to shoulder. Got guys getting 585HE cases, they all think we have ''the'' case to wildcat... Ed |
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Here is a helix driver seal we made by cutting base from helix driver wadcup, good for fullbore roundballs that are too big to go in cup. Best one to cut off is shortest `12ga one BPI has. Here is picture of a 585HE made on a Stiller bolt action for guy in Canada. It was made for the poster Spooksar on Africa Hunting and [blank], by Corlanes/Rocky Mountain rifles, in Dawson Creek BC Canada, with a Stiller action, Timney trigger. the stock is a blue/grey laminate. He imported the barrel, cases, dies, etc.. from us, through Prophet River in Lloydminster AB. That action similar to Lawton we had and neighbor got, that won the King Of The 2 Mile shoot at Whittington, with the 375 Lethal cartridge the neighbor made, from our 585 brass. Made it full length case,.. It is big one on the right. He made an 18 lb gun with McMillan target stock, a huge scope, tripod.. Nice thing is we don't need BMG action.ED |
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Fellow big bore nut, Nathan Vale in AUS, has worked with Bertram and got the run of full length 12ga From Hell cases done. Drawn 12ga long cases as strong as BMG brass with unbreakable rims. Any wanting to get some, contact Bertram at the email ----- b.bertram1@bigpond.com ...... Some more on wildcat 375 Lethal....... .375 Lethal Precision Arms LLC rifle shooting prototype solid 400gr Berger bullets. Mitchell built this rifle himself using a McMillan A5 Super Mag stock, Rock Creek barrel, Nightforce ATACR MOA scope, Phoenix Precision Bipod, and a Lethal Precision Arms muzzle brake. Lawton Action. Lethal Precision his own gunsmith shop, will make these target rifles for anyone into target shooting and long range hunting.. Remarkably, Mitchell nailed first- and second- shot hits at the 2477-yard target, a full 1.4 miles away. It is windy out there, makes shooting hard with a time limit. The prototype 400 grain Berger Bullets solid was superb, (G7 BC of 0.56 at 3000 fps). Here is 585 HE in an Enfield, in a Choate Heavy Varmint Stock. These are super strong. The butts of these can easily be weighted. Couple guys doing them....... Ed |
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Here is a picture of the 12ga FH brass case that Nathan Vale had Bertrams make. Next to short plastic case. Here is a picture of our 585BB headstamp. Perfect lettering for our case as it came from production line,. I like Hogue stocks, but they aren't made for singleshots. We use singleshots for our 12ga FH and 585HE. Here is picture of a NEF we set up for 24ga FH and we adapted a Hogue 1300 Winchester Hogue to it. Looks a lot better, and handles recoil easier than factory, Butt hollow, easy to add weight, Here is picture of 585 case in the Lawton bolt, and the wildcat 375s and others made from our cases, work in bolt also. Ed |
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Our friend Brian from the far north went to Africa with his 24ga FH he did in a NEF break action and got 3 nice buffs with it. Good job. Our 585HE, 700HE and the great 12ga FH are now in the new COTW book published in Oct, now out for sale, We now have our target 375 HE cartridge, made by necking down our 585 HE. The others couldn't make enough 375s, so we started our own. It has different shoulder taper, length, neck length, improved over the others...Got a bunch guys doing it, most into the 2 mile shooting venues, We're making cases, testing, reamer prints at reamer guys, we are getting guys going. The 2 mile shoot last year really got the interest booming for 375 necked from our case, Here's how, size and seat 375 HE, one simple die, a 1" die, no huge dies needed A die we can make with resize reamer from reamer guy, a regular die body,then pass on to the next guy, one reamer can make whole bunch of dies for folks. I do primer work separate, not in the press. SO First with lock ring set, I size cases. When coming back out of dies with case, we notice the case still well centered, held straight, when it is down as far as the length of the 375 HE neck... IE the sides and shoulder corner still supported tight. So we put washer or another lock ring on, same thickness as neck length, below original lock ring, screw down tight tight in press, Dies had a 5/8 x 24 thread in top, had powder fill bushing and other stuff same thread, reamed out from bottom to set bullet height, with ram, case,and bullet up, After priming, loading in the powder charge, we carefully start(boat tail makes it easy) bullet in case by hand, slide up in die, into holder, raise ram to to top, bullet seated perfect. Die can have different thread in top as long as big enough to hold seating bushing of some kind , that can be made from many items. These target bullets held in by strong neck tension, no crimping needed, and notice bullet point will get no marks or dents, fast, easy, no 380-500 buck special dies. Bushing centering bullet on ogive is very accurate. OVER 900 375HE cases piled behind presses getting done. About 600 on another bench nearly ready. Small batches in shelves.And we will do more. All 375 info, prints, specs, pictures, load data, etc, is public domain, worldwide, for any target, hunting, etc, use..Ed |
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Cool to see Ed, you deserve the recognition ! And folks said I was crazy when I made a NEF in 500 3 1-4in NE, but boy did that thing have recoil in full loads !! |
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Here is picture of one of 3 buffs our guy from Canada got in Africa with our 24ga FH he did on a NEF, in 2nd picture Here is the neck die setup, with insert stems/plugs for the top that are set in .020" steps to make our 375 HEs shown behind from our 585HE cases. 900 cases behind and 600 on another bench, mostly done, and 600 started elsewhere, We also made a hydraulic form die, 375 HE test gun, starting with lighter bullets, for example got 340 gr to 3700, Will test up to 400gr We will find top speeds and powders needed to get that, and have info where to get powders. Reamer prints are at reamer guys, all prints and info is public domain... Ed |
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Picture of fellows at Vestals Gunsmithing test firing 585 HE they built for a guy. They got 750 gr to almost 2800 from ultra short barrel, not a full load . A regular barrel would be over 2900, 14000 ft lbs with full load.. Picture of our 375 HE cases, with little 378 WEA on left. Middle case is with 330 gr, right case is 400gr bullet. Here is picture of out 375HE testgun, in heavy t-hole stock. So far 340 gr to 3700 and 360gr 3600. Next 416 HE target case, these run through the hydro-die, test gun done,will complete testing soon, to confirm specs. When specs set, info will be sent to reamer guys Soon will have 408 HE with specs set up also, for guys, Smaller case 416s and 408s can be reamed out for our bigger case .Ed |
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Anyone wanting to build 4 bore I got barrel to sell, 300 bucks,all chambered for ours and Ken Owen's 4 bore case. Pm if interested. And I know guy who has 4 bore cases and loading deal to sell.Ed |
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Here is the before and after of 375 HE cases necked, 2 on left, and then formed in hydro die... Ed Here is pic of 416 HSM second from left we are experimenting with, going to see if we can make the ultimate 416 ELR case. Can be 3.60" to 4.00" long, a long one pictured. Holds over 280 gr ball powder under bullet. The 3.6" case can hold about 250gr under bullet.. In picture, 1st case is 416 HE, 2nd 416 HSM, 3rd 375 He, 4th 378 WEA. 416 HSM will get 400gr to 4100 plus without needing BMG action, 470 gr 3800 plus , it may be the ultimate target, singleshot 416.. Case will work in fat bolt actions, with heavy enough barrel to have good, milder, barrel harmonics and be under 50 lbs. A lot of the 2 mile type shoots are adopting 50lb limit. Here is picture of the 416 HSM fireformed once, next to bmg case we make it from and as we improve wildcatting process next few weeks some specs may make small changes, now from base to shoulder is 3.45", case 3.97" long. Ed.. Manson has 416 HE and 408 HE prints, as well as 375 HE He can also make you a resize die reamer from that info. We got 700 cases in 416 and one more pass if 408s wanted, , Going to do lot more cases for these 2 sizes, PM or email. ph 989-644-5228.. Here are final specs for 416 HE. Length 3.32", belt diameter ,655", base dia .635" , length base to to shoulder 2.860" , 30 deg shoulder.Ed |
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Guys asking about strong economical bolt gun to use for 28ga and 410 ga and 32ga with brass cases and higher pressures than plastic cases. They can use a MN bolt action, here is pic of one with our 585 case in the action.Guys can get Magtech brass cases or have RMC make them....Guys can make 32ga case from 500 NE, 410s from 9.3 x 74 brass, etc.. Here is picture of our 416 HSM case sectioned next to original BMG case on the right sectioned, to show that we still have enough thickness in the sides to handle high pressure, in a case with 310 gr capacity..We are getting the wildcatting work set up so we can do at least hundred a month. We have lots of 585s, 375HEs, 416 HEs, 408 HEs..... And working toward getting 416 HSMs in big numbers. Here's comparison of 416 target cases, 1st 416 HE, have whole bunch. Second is model of what I'd have made on medium machine, if I could, the 416 HE Long. It has capacity of 230gr.. Third is our 416 HSM which we are working on making by wildcatting bmg cases, And if had run long cases, make longer 375 HE necking down 416 .. Bryan Litz just recently shot 3 shot group at 2 miles using Paul Phillips heavy barreled, target rifle built by Lethal Precision in 375 Lethal Mag(585HE necked down, very similiar to 375HE )... It grouped 17.5 inches tall by 22 inches wide. Applied Ballistics shooter Mitch Fitzpatrick just hit 3 of 5 at 3520 yards, weekend 10-13th at Valdina Ranch , west of San Antonio. Also used the 375 LM case similar to our 375 HE Great shooting at the 2017 World's Longest Shot Challenge. Ed |
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What's the lever gun that the .585 is made for? (Mentioned a special short case?) |
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Model 71 Win and 86 Win and Henry steel frame 45-70 might work, and strong pump shotgun actions. Ed |
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The 12ga FH case now is in the new COTW book on last page in the wildcat section, I think page 324. They gave good credit to Rob for the idea of that case.... The model 416 HE long case in middle, hydro formed one, has case capacity of 240 gr, and the 416 HSM in picture, on the right, we fired a case twice, capacity is 320gr.. Ed.. Shooters talking more now; short, fat cases sticking, pockets not lasting as expected. Trying to get best speeds the things raising pressures are bad case proportions, too fast of powders, and the debth of the bullet into the powder space, as shown in the picture below.. My 375, 416, etc testing, bullets loaded like bottom one, in longer freebore....Ed. |
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Here is case measurements for our 416 HE target case made from our 585 HE big belted case. Ed Here is picture of 375 HE left, 416 HE next, 416 HSM right.. Here, tentative specs, 416 HSM case we are doing from bmg brass, A 375 HE, with Lawton action, bunch being done with those ..... |
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A 585 HE ...shot with moderate heavy load...... https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/t50.2886-16/20404363_470558053312276_3772630570509533184_n.mp4 Here is a 375 HE target gun set up, by Asteroid Precision... Here is video of it being tested... And with a 350gr bullet about 3450-3475, bolt opened easily with one finger...And he's just getting started and is checking on better powder, Ed........... https://www.facebook.com/AsteroidPrecisi..._location=group |
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Here is recap simple setup to get faster loads with 12ga sabots & slugs, Example using break actions...., reaming chamber in a 12ga break action to 3.5" with a 3.5" 12ga reamer, that isn't something needing special order, and use 3.5" plastic cases , or get 3.5" brass cases made. With mag shotgun primers and our slower powder loads you can get a quarter more speed, which gives 50% more energy... 585 Hubel Express video, 190ft/lbs recoil, heavy load, gun little light..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyS9zZ8ElJA Another view of Asteroid Precision's.... 375 HE target gun, Here is our 416 HSM we are developing next to 416 Barrett, Ed |
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Here in picture of the cases, are shown the steps in making our 416 HSM case, from BMG brass,, Ed We might have a company that is doing a bolt gun with an action between BMG size and longer rifle actions used for 375 HE, 375 Lethal, and Cheytacs.. To use for our 416 HSM without having to do extreme rebating of the rim. Here is picture of 620 416 hsm cases half done. Done on cnc , that slimmed them down, cut new rim and extractor groove. There are over 500 more at cnc getting done now, plus we have 1000s more bmg cases we make them from, when needed.. This case is public domain and if anyone wants to make them we can give the steps involved...Ed. |
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For big long cases our testing is showing that the 416 easier to get powders to work with, less problems .. Maybe building a target gun,don't have 375 barrel all ready, maybe go 416.... We got cases, 416 HE and 416 HSM, as well as 375... CEB and others will have bullets...CEB will be doing .416 in 450gr, 475gr, 500gr, 525gr and 550gr Got sent 5 thick sided sample cases, same OD base as 585/375.416 cases, same belt, just .180" longer, did a 416 HE, chambered extra barrel , cases stick over 50k. They have about .042" total taper, .021" per side, when I necked couple to 416. That is a lot of taper , twice the taper of my 416HE...hanging up at 50k.. I could maybe go to 65k with these if we made taper with ..012" - .016" more taper to each side, but that is no way to build target cases. I'd have to crunch down case shoulder diameter. And would look like 30-30. And crazy part is, the case has enough brass material to thin up sides and stretch them way out to 4 or more inches,, They weigh 150 gr more than our 585/375/416,, but with real thick sides they actually hold less than our 416 HE with thin sides, that is .180" shorter...Our case does 65k ok without sticking.. And we can make super long 4" cases work if we had means to get them built, as we have 15 powders slower than HBMG.Here is pic of thin and thick sided cases, sectioned for comparison.Ed.. |
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Here is a drawing depicting the layout of thick and thin sided cases, like my 585/375/416 HE thin sided ones and the thick one in picture. And my 585 case is not perfect, as where it transitions from the heavier corner to the side it isn't gradual, so case separates there shortening case life. There are others made that way including brand X. The dotted line is what it should be............ Others have sent cases to section and look at, that are built thick sided and they stick also for the folks, If a longer case with about 5 sq in of side surface sticks and don't spring back, the coefficient of friction is about .01 then the pull needed to move it is 2500-3500 lbs..That is for big cases with normal amount of slant to the sides. Here is picture of six nyati and gibbs size cases sectioned.. the5th one is present 585 HE and 6th is thick sided version. 1st 600 OK which essentially nyati basic case left straight, belt added In the picture the nyati gma is one we built most of our first 585s on. Before we had factory run. Reworking made it in size that is my 585 HE, but that brass had the sides of perfect thickness, not too thick, but thin without sharp transition my new factory 585s had, they last forever as 585s...... Fourth one is an older nyati case I used to make about 10 of my 585s from,had thin sides, heavy corner and sharp transition from the corner, tested 20 years ago, and they would separate after 4-6 hot loads as 585s, my factory 585 with right powders, as a 585 will get 10 hot loads, and necked down to 416/375 4- 6 hot loads, right powders used, Moderate 577 equivalent, factory 585 at least 20 loads..Ed. |
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Guy sent thick sided 375 case, next size base diameter up from Nyati.He said, 'Yes I ran them in a ___________ rifle built by ____, the best I could get was 44000 psi, any more and they were stuck'' Big bore guys. other forums over the years related that trex/african case in 585 size, thick sided cases, stuck when they loaded them over 45k psi. Another just sent us, thick sided 375, long case, same base OD as our 585 HE, 416 HE, 375 HE, and Mitch's 375 Lethal, and the thick ones stuck over 45k psi. Now you can fill those cases up, with ultra slow enough powder so they won't stick, but powder is too slow for max speed. Might get a little more speed, with thick sides case, but case got to be 4- 4.5 inches long.. . Anyone needing a sectioned case of the ones I made the first of my 585s from, contact me, if they want to get a general idea of what case side thickness should be, in Gibbs size cases on up to about trex and 375 VM size case diameter. Here is pic of our 585 based case next to brand X and thick ones, both have same sharp, thinner, corner, where transition from heavy angled corner, to the side, the carbide draw rod could easily be reshaped with diamond wheel, just by grinding off sharp transition corner. Then sides would be perfect.., . Here is picture of 416 HE in a Choate target/varmint stock guy is doing, using long action BSA U9 action.Setting in stock ready to do bedding..Ed |
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Here is picture of thick 375 case sent to me, with thick sided trex case, and our HE case, The thick 375 case is .050" bigger OD base, but inside is no bigger than HE cases.. These thick sided 375s stuck for the guy using them, when loaded over 44,000 psi.... Got guys asking and doing it, to do 416 HSM case for BMG actions, so leaving rim same, as the original bmg rim, so will neck them, fire form to the longer shoulder, like the others. Base a little bigger, Shoulder same diameter, same 30 degree slant, neck will be same.. Inside of case still has close to same shape, volumne within 3 % as ones we slimmed down more. Some want to use bmg actions and can't wait for intermediate actions, or already have bmg action. And they are really getting interested in the complete line of 416 CEB bullets now being done clear up to 550 gr... So there will be 3 versions, one for actions .750" bolt, one for .800-.850" bolt, And one for bigger bmg bolts. The ones for BMG called 416 HSM2 .. Here is 416 HSM guy working in a Montana PH, in a heavy thumbhole target stock. Ed |
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Here is sectioned 585 HE case in the middle, we first made from another case, years ago before we had factory run of brass and it had perfect thickness on the sides and inside corrner. We could fire them many times without sides thinning.. First case is factory run of our 585 HE, 3rd is case that is too thick of sides and sticks at high pressures.. Pic of our factory run cases necked down to 375 and fired 4 times at high pressure on the right, with unfired case on the left. Our case is not perfect but does work...Ed |
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Just re-read the entire thread from page 1 to here.. such a goodun. Keep up the great work, Ed. Sent you a PM by the way |
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About 416 cal bullets............ The heaviest 550 gr for Extreme ELR probably be best 8 to 1 twist , in 416 caliber bullet, and 520 gr 9.5 to 1, and 470gr 10 to one, Some barrels I picked up are 10 to 1....... Now a novel idea is to lighten rear of bullet with small shallow hole drilled in base, might do better long range.which would allow 10 to one barrel stabilize the heavier 550 gr bullets for ELR. Making bullet nose heavier makes it more stable in flight, needing less spin, like our hollow base 585 cal minie bullets only need 48 to 1 twist, or less while out regular 585 bullets need about 24 to 1 to stabilise them.............. The winner of the King Of 2 Mile shoot last week was using 416 Barrett with a 1 to 10 twist, with a 500 gr CEB Lazer bullet, ...Robert Brantley, with Manners Stocks.... Paul Philips was third with a 416... GOOD NEWS-- There is now an importer and seller of our 585 HE brass getting set up here, in US, hopefully will be in stock, few weeks........ http://bertrambrass.com .. .. Caleb Hallet.. Have got another intermediate size action besides the Montana PH our guys working on, to do speed testingwith. It is big long REM style action that can take our 416 HSM, ED |
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Experimental intermediate size action with the Montana PH, for comparison. It is an experimental action for our 416 HSM, to do our speed testing with and get a better action than Cheytac size actions, for bigger case ELR use, without going all way up to more expensive, huge actions. It is big long round style action that can take our 416 HSM, almost 1.6" diameter action and .800" bolt, with locking lugs nearly as big as most BMG actions.... ED |
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Here is picture of the bolt from the experimental action, with our 416 HSM case in it. Note the amount of the base size of locking lugs, the amount of area on the bolt.. Here is link to guy doing special 585 HE in the EU, Good pictures............www.585he.cz We tested intermediate action with a 700HE barrel we had here. Just temporary to test strength. 1000 gr over 3100.. Action worked fine.. Ed. |
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Here is video of early water barrel test of the 12ga From Hell, from years ago. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk Here is picture from that video.. Here is the intermediate size action for 416 HSM with test barrel, .Ed |
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In 416 HSM got a 415 gr long target bullet 3800, with plain barrel, no brake, on intermediate action, Now my 416 HE gets same 415gr bullet to 3300.Ed |
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Here is picture of our 416HSM cases with screw in shellholders, for Ammomaster, etc, and slip in shellholders for regular presses Also have some for big LEE Classic and Smart Reloader presses.. A 378 WEA MAG in picture for comparison... Second is stacks of 416 HSM, about a third fireformed and the rest to be fireformed... So far total about 1700, Ed |
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Bob Snapp, 90, the great Gun Craftsman, of Clare, Michigan, passed away Jan 28th.... He was an esteemed member of the American Custom Gunmakers Guild, Being its president in 1992..He liked working with Martini Cadet singleshot rifles .Worked with guys testing armor long time ago. Maybe the 1st to do 20mm necked down to 50cal We lost a great friend,,,Ed |
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That's a great pity, I have been reading about Bob's work for many years, we are diminished ! Thank you Ed. You do some fine work also ! |
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..... It is possible rig up holders for many types setups., About shellholder supply for big cases, RCBS and others make slip in holders for shotgun cases that can work or reworked for big rimmed rifle cases... Here are various sizes....... 16ga-- .810" rim,........ 20ga-- .760" rim,.... 24ga-- .725" rim,....... 28ga .680" rim.... Ch4d and Buffalo Arms also have these larger shellholders... We fireform the 416 HSM with 65 gr of medium speed surplus powder, with rest of case filled with farina and grits mix, with a play dough plug in the neck. It is loud, so we shoot it into big container through a barrel size size hole, so the sound is muffled, so it doesn't deafen us.. It is great getting more companies making 416 caliber bullets, long target and bore rider bullets. Ed.. .... |
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Wonder if a PTRD with 5 ft long barrel is stable enough for ELR , rebarrel to 416 and use our 416 HSM, 500 gr bullet .... .Here is up north guy using 585 HE in a PTRD with inserts, Light load.....Inserts are in the shape of the 14.5mm case.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyabm-cbwgc&feature=youtu.be HERE ia video, 585 Hubel Express and water jugs - slow motion 750 gr with 155gr RE17, just a moderate load.....Ed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXAo1mJqw8Y |
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20mm Vulcan is a big case that works ok, without having the sides made too thick...They have thinner sides than smaller cases guys are getting that have the sides made too thick and won't extract easy or work with high pressures. Here Barnard P Cheytac bolt that would do for our 416 HSM..Ed...... |
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Got guys doing various 416 HEs.. One just built a 416 HE, just been testing it a few days.. And using 168gr of HBMG 475 gr CEB, tested it, in good conditions, 2 shots at 1800 yards and was within a 1/4 of minute accuracy...A few shots at shorter ranges had same accuracy. Ed.. |
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More about our 416 HSM from BMG brass, and our 416 HE & 460 HE from our 585 HE cases Got reamers for 375 HE, 416 HE and 416 HSM,.... 460 HE & 460 HSM are all spec'd, got HE reamer soon have HSM reamer...Our HSMs have a Wea type radius on the shoulder.. The fellow that set up our 416 HE in an ELR rifle and got 1/4 min accuracy, They got some game out west over 1400 yds.. .Here is the gun they set up. Using a K&P 34" barrel on a BAT action.....Ed |
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Wow........1/4 MOA! That is some accuracy Ed. |
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And have got 460 HSM specs setup, the impetus for that is some asking about one and new great line of 458 bullets CEB now has. It will hold more powder than the 416 HSM and will get a 572 gr as fast as 416 HSM gets a 475gr.....Ed.. |
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The guys that did the super accurate 416 HE did another 416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel.. Used a Stiller action and same load with 475 gr bullet, as in first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy. 3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa. And loads they used are not the highest speed loads the cartridge is capable of....Here is print with specs for the 416 HE reamer chamber ....Ed.... |
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More about he guys that did the accurate 416 HE, they did a 416 HE that has an 8" longer 42 inch K&P barrel.. Used longer barrel and the same load with 475 gr bullet, as used in the first gun and and gained about 200 fps with good accuracy,. 3065 fps. Tested 2 groups of 3 and less than 1/2 min moa. And loads they used are not the highest speed loads the cartridge is capable of....Here is picture.......Ed.... |
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Away for a time, sickness.. Here is print with chamber reamer specs for the 416 HSM chamber..There are 3 base sizes we have, depending on actions used. Got reamers for all 3.. Got cases for all of them.. Our cases are public domain, so that is why I post info and specs. To help guys do their own setups. Manson makes reamers I use,,, Ed. |
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Here is reamer print with chamber reamer specs for the 460 HSM chamber .Couple guys getting set to do 38-40 inch heavy 458 target barrels...Ed.... |
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With 40 inch barrel 416 HSM ,475 gr, get 3650, over 13,000 ft lbs muzzle energy. Got guys getting set to have 38-40 inch 458 barrels made for 460 HSM.Ed.. |
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More info on this gun, we did it for testing 416 HSM with a rebated rim, to check in intermediate size actions, with the longer, stronger, bolt lugs, Ed.. [IMG] http://www.gunownerstv.com/intertargetp.jpg[/IMG] |
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Here is experimental action for 416 HSM in a heavy stock....We lengthened port a little, set bolt stop back , opened bolt face fit the 416 HSM rebated rim. Ed. Here is comparison of Montana PH to Pierce action we modified to use for rebated rim 416 HSM testing..Ed. |
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416 & 460 HE AND 416 & 460 HSM .LONG RANGE AND HUNTING Can be set up in Pierce X10 ACTION for the 416 & 460 HE AND X20 action for the 416 & 460 HSM , Can get those if guys need one...Ed |
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WE setup a huge falling block as test gun, can test by changing barrels, 585 , the 416 and 460 HSMs..ED |