| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/03/10 09:00 PM |
cast loads in 458WM
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I've bought some 405gn Hawkesbury Blackhawks in 458 for some cheap(er) shooting. These are a coated hardcast lead projectile (no gas check). I haven't found a great deal of info on them but I think I have to keep the velocities below say 1800fps. These projectiles are meant for 45/70.
I use ADI powders. Today I tried using a reduced load of AR2206H - bad idea. First shot a hangfire, second a misfire with the bullet stuck in the start of the rifling (and powder throughout the action and magazine when I opened the action). Because I don't live far from the range, I went home and came back with some reduced loads using AR2205 and a filler (cotton ball material) - I use this powder for cat bullets in my 375H&H. First two shots good. Third shot a misfire, stuck bullet etc but at least the filler stopped the powder from spilling everywhere.
A guy at the range suggested I use magnum primers and AR2207, said there is a difference in how easy the powders will light up and stay lit - AR2206H and AR2205 goes out easy if it has room to get blown around the case (I must add there was evidence of some burning by the change in colour and bunching together of the granules for the misfires). I didn't realise that this quality existing with the different powders since it is not spoken about, but this guy has lots of cast load development experience and has seen all the things that go wrong.
I checked the ADI website but AR2207 loads start at 2000fps and Trailboss will only do around 1000fps - I'm looking for the gap in between. (I know another guy that uses Westcasting 405 projectiles in his 458Lott but these are rated to 2100fps. I don't remember his load - I'll check the next time I see him.)
Do I get rid of these projectiles and buy the Westcastings, or does someone have a load out there that will do what I'm after.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/03/10 11:01 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I'm afraid I can't help you with the AR-series powders, but don't give up. The 458 Win Mag can be loaded with 405 gr cast bullets quite nicely. I use IMR 3031 and 4198 with standard primers for loads around 1800 fps. For even lighter loads, I've used Alliant 2400 to get 1400 fps.
Look on a burn-rate chart for powders in this range.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/03/10 10:30 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Alliant 2400 is a bit quicker than AR2205 and IMR4198 is supposed to be equivalent to AR2207. AR2206H is equivalent to IMR4895 (too slow for a reduced load - no suprise that didn't work). The AR2205 did suprise me though - I used 35gns and this is not entirely out of the ballpark, I thought (although this may be more true for bottleneck cases rather than straight cases, which apparantly is a different kettle of fish for reduced loads).
With the usual cautions for load information (no liabilities for loads given), can you tell me how much you load for the powders you mention? Do you use fillers for any of these loads?
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 08/03/10 02:22 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I had a look through my loading book for the loads I used in my 458 when I had it, I used the following loads.
All in winchester brass and Winchester LR (standard) primers.
30 grains of Alliant 2400 and a 400 grain RCBS cast bullet gave me 1450 fps.
45 grains of AR 2205, same 400 RCBS = 1675 fps.
48 grains of AR 2207, same 400 RCBS = 1625 fps.
I don't use filler of any sort with any cast bullet load.
DC
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 08/03/10 03:25 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I used H4895 with loads to 2,200fps using cast bullets of 505gr. in my .458 Alaskan - virtualy identical case capacity to the .458Win Mag.
From 1,800fps (where I started) on up, it held MOA at 100 meters using the Lee 500gr. GC bullet from straight Wheel Weights with Lyman moly lube - no leading at all.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/03/10 06:07 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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450 Ackley,
Maybe I was just outside the ball park - sounds like I was too light on with the AR2205. I'll bump the loads up and will probably switch to AR2207 anyway (I like to try and fill the case up). Do you recall how low a charge you went with AR2205 and the 400 grainers?
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 08/03/10 08:44 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Went down as far as 25 grains of AR 2205, lots of sooty, greasy cases (which I hate), and a pretty low velocity with it, about 1250 fps from memory.
I've found that with the cast bullet loads I have worked with, a fast/medium powder works better than the slower powders, as they tend to reach a higher peak pressure quicker, which seems to seal off the cases much better.
Most of my cast loads in all calibres run from about 1400 fps to 2000 fps, seems I can usually manage to get a load that shoots within that range somewhere, nearly always around the 1600 fps mark.
DC
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/03/10 11:35 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Quote:
With the usual cautions for load information (no liabilities for loads given), can you tell me how much you load for the powders you mention? Do you use fillers for any of these loads?
PM sent
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 09/03/10 11:31 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Tatume, PM received - thanks for the info.
Now I'm confused - Tatume's info and 450 Ackley's last response indicate that my AR2205 loads (AR2205 is a little bit slower than 2400) were ballpark and should have at least gone bang every time, albeit running a bit on the "rich" side with soot and grease. So I don't need magnum primers or fillers but do I need to crimp the projectile in place? I haven't been doing this.
I've used cast in 308 and 375H&H and have never crimped those (and without issues).
(I re-read my original post last night and discovered an error "...I use this powder for cat bullets in my 375H&H." I meant "cast" but I guess "cat" is probably okay too.)
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 09/03/10 04:28 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I find crimping cast bullets very detrimental to accuracy, but can also understand if your rifle doesn't want to feed smoothly, that you might need to, to stop it pushing the projectile back into the case.
These loads will not generate the recoil to push them back into the case.
DC
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 09/03/10 11:12 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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The crimp in a straight-sided case serves two purposes. One is to prevent bullet migration, either due to recoil (outward movement, as in revolvers), or magazine pressure (inward movement, as in tubular-magazine lever action rifles). My 458 Win Mag is a Ruger #1, so I have no concerns about migration.
The second purpose is to increase bullet pull, so as to ensure proper combustion. If insufficient pressure builds in the case, combustion will be incomplete. The shoulder of a bottle-necked case provides this function. In a straight-sided case the increased bullet pull caused by the crimp raises pressure long enough to aid combustion. This is easily observed with slow powders. With the same load, but with and without crimp, a considerable difference in muzzle velocity can be measured. With faster burning powders the effect is less obvious, but present.
The only accuracy deficit I have observed that may be attributed to the crimp involves an improper crimp. If the bullet seating die is adjusted to seat and crimp at the same time, shaving occurs. I have seen this with cast and jacketed bullets. This is detrimental to accuracy, markedly so. The crimp should be applied in a separate operation, either with a special-purpose die or by readjusting the seating die.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 10/03/10 03:26 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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A separate Lee factory crimp die eliminates many crimping problems with normal constriction crimping down by many seating dies.
An added feature of the Lee dies, is the ability to crimp where no crimp groove is present, even on jacketed bullets.
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 10/03/10 07:38 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Might be a phenomenon with 2400 possibly, not being a pistol/revolver shooter myself at all, I have no experience with them, but I do believe the shooters that load 2400 in calibres such as 44 mag have to crimp for proper ignition.
Maybe it's hard(er) to ignite?
DC
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 10/03/10 11:52 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I've been using an expander (came with the 3 die RCBS set) to open up the case mouth just enough to allow the base of the projectile to fit in to avoid any lead shaving issues. I have not been applying the roll crimp (? form the same RCBS die set) after seating the projectile - it is still a firm fit.
My CZ has a long throat, so maybe without the crimp, the primer discharge is enough to expand the powder space (until the projectile gets stuck in the start of rifling) so that the powder is blown around in this space and prevented from igniting, or blown out?
Trouble with this theory is that my filler load with AR2205 gave me the stuck projectile but the filler and powder stayed where they were! When I pulled the filler out (it was partially stuck to the inside case wall by a small compressed mass of powder) most of the powder was as good as new. There was a small mass of compressed powder that was yellow in colour – I presume it looked like this from the primer flame ie partial burning.
So, in this case, if the powder ignition was disrupted by physical displacement, it must have been a pressure wave that stopped it but pushed the projectile into the rifling (sort of along the lines of what Tatume wrote but powder will burn under normal air pressure so it must have been a sudden change in pressure, or transient wave, that blew it out). I was thinking that a crimp may offer enough resistance to let the primer flame do its job before the projectile starts on its way.
This is making me think too much. I just wanted to shoot cheap reduced loads.
Okay, I’ll increase the load with AR2205, get rid of the filler (I’ve now also heard horror stories of fillers causing rings in pistol-cartridge rifle chambers) and add a bit of a crimp. I’ll likely also use magnum primers. And then if these projectiles lead the barrel, I’ll change to Westcastings.
I’m not keen on casting my own. I have cast before and I don’t get any enjoyment out of it – also pushed more for time these days.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 10/03/10 12:25 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I got away from using pistol and shotgun powders for cast bullet rifle loads many years ago.
I'd tried a load straight out of a book for the Trapdoor Springfield .45/70, in my .458 2" and achieved a pressure excursion with it. I had loaded only 5 rounds and pulled the remaining 4 after firing that 1st one. Absolutely no chance it was a double charge, either - I double checked each one, first visually, then with a 3/8" dowel. I didn't use a filler, either. No hard done, but the report was rather sharp and the primer pocket was expanded. How that can happen with around 25gr. (which is actually a .44 mag load) of powder, I don't know. Detonation?
Anyway - I switched to rifle powders that allowed much higher speeds at reduced pressure with good accuracy. H4895 became my favourite as I seems to work well right down to about 50% of capacity with better accuracy than IMR 3031 & 4198. H4198 developed pressure that required heat treated bullets at 2,000fps, whereas H4895 worked well with straight WW metal.
| 86thecat |
| (.224 member) |
| 10/03/10 05:18 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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The 458 WM has a long throat, but also a wide funnel shaped throat. Primer pressure could be slipping around the bullet as it leaves the case, stopping ignition. There was a thread over on AR quite a while back discussing the difference between the WM and Lott throats, and IIRC the throat started about 10 thou larger diameter than the bullet. A throat cut with a fresh reamer could be looser than one cut with a reamer worn to minimum dimension. A good crimp and hot primers, as suggested, might help.
In reference to the WM and Lott CIP spec throats-
Quote:
Only two dimensions are needed to describe the throat fully, (edited for clarity)
1. 0.4693" (11.91 mm) wide just above the case mouth, right where the 45-degree taper down from neck diameter ends. BTW, end of neck chamber diameter is 0.4831" (12.27 mm).
2. 0-degree 29' 30" leade angle.
Wide and long, leade-only, sloppy funnel throat.
and-
Quote:
The reason for the question relates to using reduced loads with lighter bullets such as 300-350 grains. The very long free bore in the 458 Winchester frequently causes hang fires. No problem with shotgun flake type powders but with normal rifle type powders.
From this thread-
http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/9201027511?r=9201027511#9201027511
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/03/10 12:24 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Quote:
and add a bit of a crimp.
Don't be shy about the crimp. A firm crimp is needed. Too little will be unsatisfactory.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 11/03/10 12:40 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Getting good ignition with straight cases is what led John Buhmiller to experiment with double primers, that is, one primer in the primer pocket, as normal, and another beneath the bullet. This works as I've tested it myself, and it allows a reduction in powder charge of around 5gr. for identical ballistics. It is not something to experiment with unless you are well healed in loading and understand completely what you are up to.
Any load development must start with low pressure loads and build from there - with exactly the same components all the way through the testing. Changing components willy/nilly is what blows guns up and injures shooters and bystanders.
Be careful out there.
| 450 |
| (.300 member) |
| 11/03/10 04:39 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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mauserand9mm
I have been shooting 405 grn cast bullets in my 458 mauser with 36grns ADI 2205 Winchester cases and Rem 9 1/2 mag primer and a factory crimp with good success. This is a noce gentle load to hunt or practice with and cheap. The only difference is I fit a gas check to the Hawksbury bevel base bullet. This has improve accuracy. I sit the bullet in the gas check and give it a tap with a soft hammer, I then run it through a .458 sizing die which crimps the the GC on. Reduce leading. I have used these projectiles with 52 grains of 2207 with success. The factory crimp dies does make a difference, cleaner burning and more consistant results.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 11/03/10 10:19 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Wow - got lots of data now and will work out a few things to try. Been reloading for 23 years now without drama. Not much experience with cast projectiles in rifle cartridges and never in straight case rifle cartridges. Certainly good to learn something new.
450, does the factory crimp distort the lead projectile at all?
86thecat, interesting article. I think MacD37 was wrong about the hangfire though - I am sure that the bullet would already have moved and I suspect it would already be jammed at the start of the rifling when it finally ignited. A primer alone will do this and it will otherwise feel and sound like a dud round.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 12/03/10 01:49 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Mauser - not sure about that - moving the bullet forward in a .458, along with the powder charge, to where the bullet lodges in the throat while ignition pauses, might be a chore for a primer - any primer.
This does happen in the .22 Hornet, though, and is why a lot of Hornet's give better accuracy with pistol primers. The 'softer' impluse is more prone to leave the bulelt in the case. With Hornet's, it isn't a case of poor igntion, it's a case of the primer being too violent for the thin case's hold on the bullet, and the lightweight charge not being enough to absorb the impact of the primer's ignition. In the Hornet, we reduced SD's to the teens, and improved accuracy 3 fold, just by using the Lee Crimp die. My CZ Hornet is now among the most accurate rifle's I've shot - frequently turning in 1/4", 5 shot groups at 100 meters. the pimers and priming did the trick. With the .458's I've used, a CCI250, Rem 9 1/2 Mag or Fed 215 primers have all given good results with jacketed and cast - along with crimping. the stronger powders are needed with the slower powders, not so with pistol or shotgun powders and may be detrimental with the fast, easy to ignite powders.
With the big straight and lightly necked cases, there is a lot of room & if not filled when using hard to ignite powders, the primer's force can push the powder to the front of the case, packing it against the bullet, where it sits until the ignition manifests itself, thus the hangfire. I seriously doubt the primer can move a heavy bullet from it's seat in the front of the case.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/03/10 11:29 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Yes you could be right, but I've seen a stuck projectile in a 9mm semi-auto pistol - primer only, no powder. Took a suprisingly decent whack on the "ram rod" to knock it back out. 9mm is a reasonable bore size considering also that it was only a small pistol primer that did this.
I'll try it in the 458 when I get home tonight. I have to pull apart 16 remaining cast reloads anyway (for powder and load adjustment) and will try one with primer only and see what happens. This will be without crimp, as per the other reloads I tried.
Maybe the last one that got stuck at the range did burn some of the powder - the change in colour and bunching may have been caused by the heat of some of the powder igniting perhaps?
| 450 |
| (.300 member) |
| 12/03/10 04:56 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Mauser.
No damage is caused to the cast bullet by crimping as ther is a groove on the bullet to be crimped into. The other thing I did find was that the blue wax lube left in the barrel appeared to effect the accuracy for 5-7 rounds when i went back to full power jacketted loads. This happended even after I cleaned the barrel. With the normal lube like alox or other grease lubes there is no problem. 22 grains of Trail boss is a real pussy load, but it still hurts pigs big time.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 13/03/10 04:00 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Quote:
Yes you could be right, but I've seen a stuck projectile in a 9mm semi-auto pistol - primer only, no powder. Took a suprisingly decent whack on the "ram rod" to knock it back out. 9mm is a reasonable bore size considering also that it was only a small pistol primer that did this.
I'll try it in the 458 when I get home tonight. I have to pull apart 16 remaining cast reloads anyway (for powder and load adjustment) and will try one with primer only and see what happens. This will be without crimp, as per the other reloads I tried.
Maybe the last one that got stuck at the range did burn some of the powder - the change in colour and bunching may have been caused by the heat of some of the powder igniting perhaps?
Sticking a bullet into the throat with only a primer might be different than having the same thing happen with a big rifle case full of powder. The powder, due to it's compressibility, aborbs the energy of the primer and the bullet stays in the throat. I recall having a .458 2" without powder, fire of the primer without moving the bullet. I always used a heavy roll crimp with that rifle, which may have contributed considerably to the bullet not moving.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 13/03/10 06:45 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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On the other hand, I have had several instances of 454 Casull ammo sticking the bullet and powder in the barrel. The AA#9 and WC820 powders were fused into a clump that usually came out intact when the bullet was pushed free. The problem was insufficient powder in the case. Once charges were increased sufficiently, the difficulty never recurred.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 14/03/10 08:43 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Okay, reloading last night and at the range today.
I loaded 14rnds with Winchester cases, CCI magnum primers, 42 grains AR2205, no filler, 405gn Hawkesbury River (no GC) seated to the crimping groove and crimped.
All loads went bang. Couldn't seem to hit the target at 100 yards - shooting very high. Moved target back to 50 yards. Out of four shots, two hit the target and both were 100% sideways. Guy next to me had a chrono and he put 3 of my loads across it (in my rifle of course) - 1740fps, 1820fps and 1680fps, or there abouts.
Advice was that I should try seating the projectile further out - the first lot I tried last week, and the ones that went bang and hit the target, went through pointing the right way and left a round hole.
I got home and it was obvious that the Hawkesburys were not meant to go this fast. I did my normal cleaning routine (less the Sweets copper solvent) but haven't got all the lead out of the bore yet - close, but I'll need another session. The patches were black and had slivers of lead on them.
Trailboss was recommended to me and I'm waiting on another guy to donate a small amount to me before I proceed.
| eagle27 |
| (.400 member) |
| 14/03/10 09:09 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I load cast in my 404 but never got good results with the 400 grainers plain base I cast and tried with various powders. Would not key hole but just would not group at all except with a low charge of slow powder which gave the odd hangfire unless packed with filler. Got hold of some 350 grainers with gas checks from another 404 owner and these performed superbly with AR2209. Turned a shoulder on the base of my own cast 400 grainers and fitted gas checks and yippee similar fantastic results using the same load. Without gas checks I noticed some lead splattering on the neck of the case.
I believe you will have much better luck with gas checked cast bullets in the big bores.
| Tatume |
| (.400 member) |
| 14/03/10 10:57 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I've seen bullet seating depth make a small difference in accuracy, but never have I seen a change in depth cause key holing. May I suggest that you measure the diameter of the cast bullets? Ideally, they should be 0.459" or 0.460" for a 458 Win Mag. Any less than 0.458" will explain your key holes.
Another phenomenon I've witnessed is soft bullets causing a buildup of lead in the bore that squeezes bullets to an undersized condition. These will key hole. This can get so bad with some promotional 22 LR ammo (550 rounds per box), that the impacts on the 25-yard target will be difficult to recognize as bullet holes.
Using cast bullets in the 458 Win Mag is a great way to shoot economically, and to practice without developing bad habits. I'm surprised you're having so much trouble. I use the RCBS 45-405-FN mould to cast bullets from wheel weights. I size them 0.459" with LBT Blue Soft lube and Hornady gas checks. They work wonderfully.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 15/03/10 02:52 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Tom's right - bullet size is almost the most important aspect of cast shooting, providing the alloy is up to the task. .458's are very forgiving of alloys as well and even straight WW at Brinel 12 will shoot to around 2,000fps, sometimes faster, given a good lube. Most plain-based bullets of correct size will handle up to 1,700fps.
Ordinary beeswax/vaseline mix will lube WW bullets to 2,000fps with good results using slower powders. Lyman's newer moly lube (not the old graphite lube) and LBT Blue are good for higher speeds.
Gas Check bullets of appropriate hardness and with the correct lube will handle up to in excess of 3,000fps.
I have never hear of keyholes due to seating depth, either.
Like Tom - I have moulds form 300gr. to about 580gr. in around 50 gr. or closer increments. Every bullet weight shoots well from a variety of .458s.
With a large throat diameter, the actual bullet diameter might have to be considerably larger than .459 or even .460". Groove diameter is non critical - if it's the throat causing problems. I've not hear of problems with factory .458 before, though, and a .459" to .460" bullet should work fine.
What is the inside diameter of a fired case's neck? Ideally, with cast bullets fitted to the throat, the cast bullet should be just a push fit into a fired case. You can try things such as teflon tape or paper patching is that is necessary to get a large enough diameter bullet. Do not worry about a larger bulelt increasing pressure - it is low.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/03/10 09:54 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I didn't understand how the seating depth would affect stability either - I would've thought that the projectile would have aligned correctly as it went into the rifling, even if it were slightly crooked initially as the result of a large throat. I wasn't expecting this many problems either and was open to all advice (opinions?). And, after all, there was evidence that those projectiles seated out went through the target straight and there was no evidence of this for the deep seated projectiles - all evidence for these were completely sideways through the target.
The guy that gave me this advice was shooting 45/70 cast loads that were going really well and consistent (1010fps) - he was using Trailboss. He had also set his chrony up what I thought was an unusaul configuration. He didn't have the screens on and it was mounted well below the boreline, probably in line where the screens would have gone - but it worked evrytime.
The projectiles are 0.458/0.4585 as best as I can measure. These are not a gas check style so I'll try Trailboss (should get around 1000fps) and experiment with seating depth. The get caught up in the action if seated right down to the crimping grovve (ala typical CZ fashion for the second last round in the magazine with round nose) but even with only the one round in the magazine. When they were seated out this didn't happen.
I may try the Westcastings (higher velocity rating) and AR2205 again at some stage in the future. I won't be casting my own at this stage (battling for shooting time and reloading time as it is) and will have to rely on "ready rolled" - these are relatively cheap anyway.
Also, I tried a round with the projectile seated out (as per my first attempts), no crimp, no powder and a standard CCI primer (CCI200) andf it drove the projectile easily an inch into the rifling proper! It took a decent effort to knock it back out.
Oh yeah, the guy at the range also had a bullet mold special made in the states for his rifle. He was going on about the seating depth, meplat, bullet diameter etc and said there wasn't a standard mould available that was suitable (he also said the microgroove barrel on his Marlin was 0.460 and, even though molds are listed at this size, they are generally not imported in Australia). There is a website where you can design the mold and they will manufacture for you accordingly, and the cost is reasonable.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 15/03/10 10:22 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Non-gas checked bullets are usually very soft, meant for black powder shooting.
The size is smaller than I like - but they've all done well with .459".
A full case of trailboss should run about 15 to 17gr. The pressure will most likely be up around 30,000psi, but the velocity, below 1,200fps. Trail Boss's presure production is out of line with the velocity it produces, btw.
At that pressure you can easily be driving the bullets to 2,000fps using other powders, which may give better overall results.
You could try putting a .45 cal wad between powder and bullet to take the place of the gas check. I have alsop used plain based bullets, with a gas check seated cup-down on the powder, then the bullet, with perfect high speed results.
| 9dot3x74R |
| (.275 member) |
| 15/03/10 12:19 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I'm using HRBC .459 405gn projectiles, but I use the "Copper" series which are supposed to tolerate higher velocities. I load up 99gn of AR2209 in my .45-120 giving 2350fps. This is a larger case than the 458wm, so don't try my loads of course. These bullets make nice round holes in the paper targets. I did try some "silver" 350gn from HRBC and they sometimes ended up sideways. Try the "Copper" ones. I use fed215. Also, my .45-120 has a very short "throat", it won't take 500gn Woodleigh for example, so I'm probably close to the lands with these bullets. I'm sure your 458wm is very different in this respect.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 15/03/10 12:59 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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It will be a nice result after the wait. I suspect you're a bit fidgity while waiting. I don't think I'd like a 28 day wait for a rifle- nor a handgun. Not happening here - yet.
The short throat on your 3-1/4" chamber probably makes it about the same length as the .458's actual throat.
In comparrison, my .458 2" had a 3/8" leade, which allowed the same overall length as if the case was 2.375" long. this allowed the heavy loads I used, running 500gr. to 2,060 without running into pressure problems.
The same goes for a long leade in a .458 WMag. Seating the bullet out as far as possible will help accuracy and increase case capacity same as if the case was actually longer.
Knowing the actual dimensions of one's chamber is quite important when working up loads.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 15/03/10 02:10 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I'm using the HRBC (Hawkesbury River Bullet Company) Blackhawks (which are actually blue). They are a coated hard cast lead projectile but I haven't seen anything on their website re velocity. As 9dot3x74R wrote, they make a Copperhawk which is rated at 2200fps. All they do is change the coating - no gas checks, no lube. I was hoping that the Blackhawks would be good for 1600fps since they are meant for the 45/70 and this is about their velocity.
Westcasting is another company that also make a coated hard cast projectile (no gas check, no lube). They have a GOLD MATCH HEAVY MAGNUM range that is rated for 2300fps. They also have a GOLD MATCH EXTREME H/V range that can be driven up to 2700fps but these are only available in 0.308 and 8mm. Don't know anyone that has used these.
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 15/03/10 06:14 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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The site where you can design your own moulds is www.mountainmolds.com I have quite a few of them, Dan makes them in either brass, iron or aluminium. It's a lot of fun designing what you want and seeing it draw on the screen, good molds as well, but you may have to wait a little while, but it will be worth it.
Re the Trailboss, the formula to use is to fill a case to the level of where the base of the bullet will be seated to with Trailboss, weigh it and repeat at least 5 times for the average, this amount is your MAXIMUM load, the recommended start is 70% of that amount.
It can be used in pretty much every calibre, although velocities can be a bit low, and it can show pressure signs very readily when you get near maximum.
DC
| gwindrider1 |
| (.224 member) |
| 16/03/10 12:28 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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If you can get AA5744 powder, 36 to 38 grns. will give you around 1700 fps. with a 405 grn. cast bullet. No filler is needed but a mag. primer and firm crimp will improve ignition.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 18/03/10 11:44 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I can't remember if I posted, but I bought the Lyman reloading manual (#49) on the weekend - that's my second reloading manual in 27 years! I bought it because it has cast loads in it.
It mentions a load using Unique and a 385gn lead projectile in the 458, it doesn't include this powder with the 500gn lead (these are the only two lead projectile weights that it lists for the 458). I'm presuming that this powder will work with the 405gn and I'm sure that I've seen somewhere here someone list a load for it (a quick "google" didn't help much).
AP/AS70 is supposed to have an equivalent burn rate to Unique and I happen to have a quantity of AP70 that I use for my 9mm pistol loads, so it's worth a go. This will help me cycle through the AP70 since I only shoot 50rnds a month in the 9mm and the powder tin otherwise lasts a few years. Wouldn't want it going bad prematurely (just joking - I store it correctly and it'll probably stay "fresh" for decades).
Any recommendations with this powder and projectile?
edit: unfortunately we don't get access to AA5744 powder down here.
| 450_Ackley |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/03/10 07:04 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Try from 18 to 22 grains of Unique or AP-70N with a 405 grain cast bullet, should give you about 1300-1500 fps roughly.
DC
| 450 |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/03/10 08:24 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I have used 21 grains of Trail boss with a 405 gas checked bullet which is quite accurate but I have not crono it. I am not fond of that blue wax lube Blackhawk cast bullets have on them. I have found that the conventionally lubed bullet to be more accurate. With a gas check I have used 51 grains of 2207 with a 405 grn bullet without a problem. Reasonably good accuracy.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/03/10 07:12 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Fill the case with Trail Boss to the level of a cast or jacketed bullet as normally loaded. Dump the powder and weigh it. This is the maximum load for any rifle ctg. 75% of that weight is the starting load.
Beware, it is noted that Trail Boss doesn't like to be compressed. I doubt it is a pressure deal in a bolt gun, most likely an accuracy trait.
For accurate Powder/Puff loads, this stuff is amazing, handgun or rifle, jacketed or cast in rifles or cast in handguns.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/03/10 01:50 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I tried 19gns of AP70 and that was still driving them too fast. I though I had a good load there for a while - I thought the first 4 shots went into a large ragged hole at 50 yards but the first shot went through normally (nice round hole) and the second must have gone through sideways right next to the first. Then the next two? Who knows? I thought the were hitting around the same spot.
(I couldn't tell at the range, since I only had a 7 power scope to use (on another rifle), but when I got home it didn't look like 4 holes right next to each other.)
The remaining 12 rounds that I fired after that were definately going astray, and they made an usual noise (a bit of echo - like firing next to a wall) as they zipped down range.
The bore was absolutely coated in lead - the worst affected area was a few inches in front of the throat. The bronze brush and solvent cleaned it out faster than last time though.
Trailboss is my last hope for these projectiles - velocity should be around 1000fps with a full load. If they still lead up I'll have to get rid of them - possibly melt them down for wheel weights
. I can't gas check them but maybe I could add extra lube? They are very hard judging by the lack of damage to the front of the ones that I had to knock back out of the barrel when they got stuck.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 24/03/10 11:19 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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1,000fps should shoot with almost pure lead bullets - if the bullets are at least groove diameter & if the alloy matches the pressure being developed.
If they are undersize, smokeless powders won't work worth a damn as they are not fast enough, or hit hard enough to slug the bullet up.
Any alloy harder than pure should work at low velocity - and with the max loading of Trail Boss, the velocity could be up around 1,200fps however - the problem - the pressure will also be up around 30,000PSI, which means you will need Wheel Weight alloy or possibly stronger.
The alloy should match the pressure as that relationship is more important than the speed.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/03/10 09:58 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I'm confident that they are hard enough and the right size (the first few will shoot straight until, I think, the barrel leads up) and that a gas check would probably fix the problem at the higher velocities.
Would an undersize projectile (not gas checked) cause barrel leading if the velocity were otherwise within the range appropriate for that particular lead alloy hardness? I guess any gas sneeking past would tend to melt the lead wouldn't it?
There's a lot of info out there - another guy I have spoken to has advised that I steer clear of the conventional pistol powders in the larger rifle cases (especially the straight walled ones) since they do occassionally ring the chamber, even if no filler material is used. Trailboss is different of course since it fills the case - the empty space and faster powders cause the problems. I can understand the dynamics since the same thing can happen if gas is ignited within connected enclosures that don't have appropriate sealing arrangements - the effect is called "pressure piling". The initial explosion will compress the gas at the other end until it do ignites and then sends a pressure wave back to the original expolsion source. "Pinging" is petrol engines is also an example of this.
| eagle27 |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/03/10 05:29 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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As I said in an earlier post I had no luck when trying to develop an accurate load with 400gr plain base cast bullets in my 404 despite using Lyman #2 lead mix which performed fine in my 7mm. Recovered bullets showed good engraving and where otherwise undamaged but just would not group. Spun a shoulder on the base of some and applied a 44cal gas checked, sized and lubed and loaded up with same charge of AR2209 (4350) that gave clover leaf groups with 350gr GC cast bullets. The GC 400 grainers gave same excellent results. Some rifles may not handle plain based cast bullets. Not hard to gas check plain based cast bullets.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 26/03/10 01:00 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Trick with plain based bullets is base protection. I've had good results in straigth cases, but had to use a card wad, or upsidown gas check under the bullet.
In a bottle'necked case, this means the wad will have to be held by the neck of the case. Seating depth requirements might not allow this.
| greenshoots |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/03/10 06:08 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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75% of that weight is the starting load.
should be 70% as start load
viv
| 86thecat |
| (.224 member) |
| 29/03/10 12:55 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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My CZ 458WM has never seemed to like light bullets but will shoot MOA with 450gn and heavier jacketed or TSX, so just tried some Oregon Trail True Shot 430gn FPGC .459 diameter cast. Worked up to 66 gn of Varget, crimped with a Lee FC in the first lube groove, 3.015 oal, the gas check is touching the powder. Got groups around 1-3/4 inches with point of impact within 2 inches of my go to 450 TSX load (Lott length) at 100 yards. Haven't chronoed them yet but they are stout, primers show some flattening and no ignition problems. Just what I was looking for, reasonably priced practice loads with POI close enough to leave the scope alone. US $22 for a box of 50 bullets, plus shipping. Only fired about 10 rounds today, but this load looks promising in my rifle.
This load was OK in my rifle but do your own research to be safe.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/04/10 08:51 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Okay, found the problem. The Hawkesbury River projectiles with 0.458 diameter are too small to work in my CZ. I bought some Westcasting projectiles which are 0.459 dia and tried them at the range today, and they worked. Accuracy wasn't real flash but I can work on that - part of that was due to aiming errors since they shoot a foot high at 50m. I had to aim below the target - should've used a bigger target. I'm going to put a scope on it for next time.
Trailboss loads did about 6 MOA while AR2205 did 5 MOA with 4 of the 5 shots in 2 1/2 MOA. Horizontal dispersion was minimal. Most of the group size was in vertical dispersion thanks to the sighting issues. Anyway I only tried 5 of each, so there is plenty of fine tuning to do. I'll probably stick with the AR2205 since this puts it near the velocity range I am targeting (approx 1700fps).
The pigs had better start getting nervous, these loads are going hunting with me next time.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 29/04/10 10:00 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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A full case of Trail Boss, loaded to the bottom of a seated bullet, will likely only give around 1,200fps at most.
It does not like to be compressed at all & a slightly reduced load, with tiny bit of airspace beneath the bullet usually gives top accuracy.
The .45 cal. rifle I've tried it in, shoots MOA at 100 meters.
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/04/10 12:49 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I made some sub-sonic loads in my .458WM with Trail Boss and 460 grain lead bullets.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/04/10 08:41 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I used 18gns of Trailboss which had some space left under the bullet. I figure these were subsonic (1000fps?).
I'm also going to try AR2207 since velocities are similar to AR2205 but you use a little bit more of it. I've also been told that 2207 lights up easier than 2205. My last 2205 load gave a slight hangfire and I've decided to steer clear of fillers (I'm using magnum primers too), so 2207 should help.
I've just bought a set of Warne QD mounts and have installed an old Tasco 4x32 scope that I had lying around - it should stand up to the reduced laod recoil okay. The Warne mounts are schmicko!
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 17/05/10 01:29 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Put the scope on and ramped up the loads to 20gn of Trailboss (405gn Westcastings, Win cases and CCI LR magnum primers) - for approx. 1000fps.
They shoot 1-2MOA at 50yards but open up to 4MOA at 100yards - still good for mucking around with. Half of the rounds that I fire you can hear that the projectiles are not fully stablised - I guess that would explain the worsening grouping as the range increases. All of the holes in the target look to be round though - I'll have to "guage" them with a projectile to see if in fact they are.
I'll be sticking with Trailboss from now on, before I do any damage with the other powders. AR2205 and AR2207 give slight hangfires. I also tried reduced loads with AR2206H and got rid of the hangfies but unburnt powder in the barrel and very sooty cases. AR2208 was worse - more unburnt powder and more soot on the cases, and also a complete ignition failure and another stuck projectile.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/11/10 07:59 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Now I've bought some 500gn Westcastings and once again these are limited to 1700fps max.
I think this is going to be more easily achievable without going too light a load and having ignition problems. Anyone using AR2205 or AR2207 out there and have a load under this velocity?
I won't use a pistol powder and have already tried Trailboss - works fine for the 405gn (~1000fps) but doesn't stabilise the 500gn because I think they are going too slow (~900fps). Changing the load with Trailboss doesn't seem to have a large effect on the velocity.
[Mind you, even though half of 500gn / Trailboss loads went through the target sideways @ 100yds, they still "grouped" within 7MOA - close up pig hunting accuracy? Nah - I wouldn't try it]
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 05/11/10 11:49 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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For a more powerful load, I'd just use a full case of something like H4895 - filled to the base of the bullet with only a few thou of compression. It should shoot accurately, too. This is more or less what I did with my .458 Alaskan with lead - shot MOA at 100 meters with 500gr. Lee gas checked bullets - straight WW alloy at 2,000fps.
I've shot TrailBoss with 500 and 525gr. cast bullets from my .45/60 Sharps. At 800 to 900fps vel. they print 1 1/2" at 100 meters from it's 18" twist. It's possible your 500gr. bullets have something wrong with them to cause keyholes. Are they undersize? That will cause problems. Cast bullets should be a minimum of .001" oversize to shoot well. Gun's vary somewhat in what they want for cast. The 500gr. + will actually stabilize from 14" of twist, right to 22" of twist at those low speeds - and on up to whatever speed you can get. Stabilization is NOT the problem.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 05/11/10 09:57 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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They are 0.459" - I made sure of that after I had dramas with the 405gn projectiles at 0.458". Only a small portion of the 0.458" hit the target at 100 yards and those that did were completely sideways - if fact you could hear that were unstable from the muzzle due to the weird noise they made. The 500gns sound normal so I thought they may be losing stability further down range due to the low initial velocity but I guess once they've been "spun-up" they shouldn't lose stability since the spin doesn't appreciably drop off as it travels down range.
There was no evidence of leading with the 500gn either but at 900fps I wouldn't have expected any.
I have to keep these below 1700fps as they don't have gas checks and use a dry coating of some sort. I have a Lyman reloading manual that identify the velocities I want using the IMR equivalents of AR2205 and AR2207 but am keen to get feedback from others that may have used the AR powders and in the CZ, but all comments/suggestions appreciated.
Interesting (frustrating?) playing around with lead. I recently discovered that my Traiboss loads and the 405gn projectiles are good at 20gns but accuracy dissappears with 21gns (keyhole, not all hitting the target etc) - no leading and no weird sounds either.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 06/11/10 03:32 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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At the 21gr. load, it sounds as if the pressure TBoss is generating, exceeds the strength of the bullet by too much and may be bending them before they are entirely inside the bore. You could try seating them out as far as possible, or merely trying a different, slower burning powder.(so the bullet is totally within the bore before the powder peaks pressure).
Although it developes low velocities, it is a common mistake to think TBoss is also a low pressure powder. The full case you are using is probably in the 30,000 to 35,000 psi range. In this case, it might be peaking too early.
Dropping to an H4895 load, what is it? AR2206H?, might give what you desire. Varget will also work, but I prefer H4895(made in Australia by ADI). I also loaded 45 to 50gr. in mine and got very good accuracy with 500gr. in my rifle - in the 1,500fps range- similar ot a .45 2 7/8" Sharps loaded with 120gr. of black powder & 500gr. bullet. Regular primers can be used, but with reduced rifle powders, I used WW, RP or CCI magnum primers. It didn't seem to matter which. With less than full capcity loads, I used KAPOK between the powder and bullet -(you can use a card wad under the bullet if no gas check, will about give gas check results). You can even use a gas check upside-down on a full case of powder if you want. The whole reason of the gas check is to seal and prevent gas cutting.
The KAPOK and card wad do that as well in less than full case loads. If using a filler - any filler, it should/must fill the empty space.
| VonGruff |
| (.400 member) |
| 06/11/10 05:58 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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While there may a little difference in results, using the recognised start load of 13gn Red Dot in cases larger than 30 cal is a good place to start. I cast for my 404 Jeffery and with a 400gn plain based boolit, used Red Dot for my subsonic load. This powder is not position sensative and starting at 13gn for 1096fps, I graduated to 14.5 for 1161fps. Have you been on the http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ forums. There is a wealth of knowledge there.
Von Gruff.
| mauserand9mm |
| (.400 member) |
| 07/11/10 08:39 PM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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Yes, I've had a quick look around the castboolits site.
Well I tried loads with AR2205 (IMR4227 equivalent) and they went completely sideways but otherwise "grouped" within 4MOA at 50 yards.
I then tried AR2207 (IMR4198 equivalent) and these worked properly ie round holes in the target. They did about 2 1/2 MOA which is about as good as my Trailboss loads with the 405gn. I've not sure how fast they were going but they did give some boot (similar to a 308?). No leading at all and burnt very clean. (I use magnum primers but no filler and seat the projectiles well into the case ad use a light roll crimp.)
The load of AR2205 I was using was supposed to give around the same velocity as the AR2207 loads - obviously the pressure curves make a difference to the performance, assuming they are doing the same velocity.
Anyway more load fiddling to do and slower powders to try (to fill up some of that space in the case).
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 08/11/10 03:17 AM |
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Re: cast loads in 458WM
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I've had good luck with trail boss and Cast Performance 480 grain wide flat nose.