mickey
(.416 member)
05/05/05 02:01 PM
Will the PH save your life?

There are many posts on many Forums advocating, what should be, marginal or less than marginal calibers and methods for taking Dangerous Game.

Most of these opinions state somewhere that the writer thinks that if he screws up the PH will be there to save him.

I think that you should always carry a rifle capable of taking any animal you could face, whether you are hunting it or not, cleanily and positively from any angle. I also believe that any rifle you would leave at home if you were hunting by yourself you should leave at home if you are hunting with a PH?

Do any others here think this way or am I being silly?


Scott
(.275 member)
05/05/05 02:12 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I think that this is very practical. Assuming the PH will back you up, while it is his job, may not happen do to unforseen circumstances which may prevent them for being able to shoot. I could think of many things from blocked view, missing his shot, or too slow on the trigger. It is nice to know that someone has your back but I'm not going in and counting on my back being covered. Its too easy to run into something where no one has time to recover. I personally know a PH bitten by a hippo last year while looking for different hippo shot by the client. They had to air-evac him to the hospital. Good news was after a couple of surgeries he is back in business againg this season. The bad news was they never found either hippo for the client.

Bigfive
(Sponsor)
05/05/05 05:53 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I think that the PH will try his absolute best to do so if the situation calls for it and I have heard of a lot of PH's how took the charge of the animal and got hurt or killed to protect the client.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
06/05/05 12:42 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I used to think it was OK to use firearms that weren't really adequate. I still do to some extent. The guys (or girls) that want to use a bow, muzzle loader or God forbid, a .45/70 (X making the hex sign to ward off evil spirits). The key thing to these hunts is all these guys are somewhat relying on someone else (the PH) to fix things for them if something goes wrong. Is that right? No, IMO.

If you are hunting by yourself and want to shoot a buffalo with a .300, then good on you. But if a PH needs to drop it from you to prevent it from escaping, or worse, squashing you, then it is just another stunt.

Of course in the end, it is your hunt and dollars buying it. If it gets you your kicks, spend your dollars and do it your own way.



In reply to:

I also believe that any rifle you would leave at home if you were hunting by yourself you should leave at home if you are hunting with a PH?




I agree for myself. Each person can make their own decision and take the responsibility too.


500grains
(.416 member)
06/05/05 01:27 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

I think that you should always carry a rifle capable of taking any animal you could face, whether you are hunting it or not, cleanily and positively from any angle.




I completely agree.

In theory I have no trouble with the idea of a foolish person going out and getting himself squashed. But it is likely that he will wound an animal and one of the trackers or the PH will get squashed. Or the animal may get away and start squashing villagers. And besides, out of respect for the animal an adequate caliber should be used. So overall I think Mickey's statement is the best one.


Mpofu
(.300 member)
06/05/05 01:55 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

You cannot presume your PH is the best shot in the world, or that he reacts well under pressure.I have seen the best and worst of both.
I agree, the best attitude to have is that of a person hunting on his own.
You also need to strike a balance. Look at some of the DG hunting videos and see hunters with heavy calibre weapons flinch, and generally shoot poorly. A well placed shot with a 375 H&H mag would be infinitely better than half a dozen 470's in the rumen.
M.


EricD
(.416 member)
06/05/05 02:48 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Mickey,

I prefer to be able to handle most problems myself, to the best of my abilities, rather then depend on the abilities of others. Not only in hunting, but in most situations. I have gotten the impression that many PHs simply don't have the oppertunity to practice much with their rifles, so I wouldn't bet on all of them being able to save a clients a$$. Not that there aren't exceptions amongst PHs of course, as some are obviously very good with their guns.

Erik


DPhillips
(.375 member)
06/05/05 09:56 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I agree with most of what has been posted. I have to ask a few questions though. If we are going to be armed with a rifle that take any animal we might face from any angle, then we are shooting bushbuck and duiker with 458 Lotts and larger cartridges? Also, it does imply that we each carry our own medical kit, fully stocked for whatever injury we might face, instead of the PH having one in the bakkie or one of the scouts or trackers carrying it?

A stunt is a stunt, I would never try to hunt with a marginal firearm for any animal. However, using a firearm capable of stopping a raging elephant from any angle while hunting duiker seems a bit odd to me, I guess. I guess the old cartridges from 7x57 through, and including, the 375 H&H should be dismissed entirely from hunting in an area that holds Cape Buffalo, Rhino and/or Elephant.

Should I leave my 300 H&H at home and just carry the 500 Jeffery for Sable and plainsgame?


500grains
(.416 member)
06/05/05 11:30 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

DPhillips,

Do you recall a story from Tanzania last season about Bob Fontana? Mr. Fontana was hunting kudu with a 30-06. A buffalo charged him unprovoked from behind a bush, instantly killing Mr. Fontana. In that instance, there was no time for anyone to shoot. But assuming there had been 3 or 4 seconds warning, most of us would prefer to be holding a .375 or bigger instead of a 30-06. The same goes when hunting plains game in an area with a lot of elephants especially cows. Of course it is not necessary everywhere. In most of RSA and Namib you can hunt PG without ever seeing any DG.


mickey
(.416 member)
06/05/05 11:45 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:


Should I leave my 300 H&H at home and just carry the 500 Jeffery for Sable and plainsgame?




No, of course not. If you are comfortable shooting a charging Cow elephant with it than take it.

Seriously, common sense comes into play also. If you are in the Kalahari shooting Springbok the chances are slim you will run into a Lion. However if you are in Zambia hunting Oribi and Impala the chances of running into a Buff or Ele or Lion is much greater, in fact probable. A 300 could be a mistake.

My original post dealt with my impression that many think that they can bring a light rifle etc to hunt DG with because the PH is there to protect them. That only the PH needs a stopping rifle.

I disagree with this theory as I believe that Murphy was an Optimist.

One should be prepared to protect oneself in case the PH can't do it.


DPhillips
(.375 member)
06/05/05 01:52 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

DPhillips,

Do you recall a story from Tanzania last season about Bob Fontana? Mr. Fontana was hunting kudu with a 30-06. A buffalo charged him unprovoked from behind a bush, instantly killing Mr. Fontana. In that instance, there was no time for anyone to shoot. But assuming there had been 3 or 4 seconds warning, most of us would prefer to be holding a .375 or bigger instead of a 30-06. The same goes when hunting plains game in an area with a lot of elephants especially cows. Of course it is not necessary everywhere. In most of RSA and Namib you can hunt PG without ever seeing any DG.



500,
I do remember that, but like you say, a shot wasn't fired so it wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. Problem is, a 375 isn't going to do the job either, based on the need for "stopping any animal one might encounter from any angle". A 375 is not a stopping rifle. In a lot of places, especially where there are surly elephants or even big Cape Buffalo, I think most agree that a stopping rifle should start with a big 45 caliber rifle.


DPhillips
(.375 member)
06/05/05 03:00 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In the end, I don't really think it is "Will the PH save your life" as much as it is "What level of risk are you willing to accept". While hunting in brown or grizzly bear country up here, sometimes I carry a rifle capable of stopping a brown bear, and sometimes I don't. I usually hunt alone, or at least while hunting I am alone. No backup if a bear does charge. My 7x57 is differently not a bear stopper, nor would I consider a 300 a bear stopper. I do try to use common sense and avoid circumstances that would put me in a better chance of bumping into a brownie at zero visibility than not.

What happened to Bob Fontana can be second guessed or claimed if he had more time and a more suitable rifle type scenerio discussion till the end of time, but as it remains, he didn't have time regardless of what he was carrying and it was a terrible unfortunate tragedy that took him away from us.

You can still be a man and not carry the heavy artillery on all occasions.


Peter_V
(.224 member)
06/05/05 05:30 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Methinks the charge footage I posted here will shed a different light on this topic i.e. having to stand your ground and deal with a tough situation adequately.

Mpofu
(.300 member)
06/05/05 06:04 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Shot placement and choice of ammo is as important as anything else when shooting DG, assuming one is using the lowest legal calibre (375H&H).
The idea of using a 375 H&H and upwards in DG territory, even when hunting plainsgame, is a good one. You never know what's around the corner.
Re the Buff charge, I have seen the same hunter and PH combination on the 'Hostile Ground' video, where she takes a good shoulder shot at a white rhino , which then runs off in the opposite direction. She appeared to be using a 375 H&H. The PH puts in two shots with his double as insurance.

M


Will
(.333 member)
06/05/05 08:37 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

As one might guess, I am against the trick hunt, such as bow hunting DG. Ask a PH how he feels about trick hunts. Hey, but it gives the PH a chance to get in some practice on shooting DG.

Two examples of the classic attitude "DG is not really a big deal."

My son went with the PH, I, and a bunch of trackers trudged off through some medium high grass to a gulley where a bunch of vultures were sitting in the trees....sure sign of lion. My son didn't "bother" to uncase his rifle. To the point, when that lion heard us and came shooting out of that gulley like a surface to air missile it scared the laiz a fare (sp?) out of him.

My son-in-law of his first safari in DG country wasn't going to bother carrying his rifle on a quick trip into the bush to look over a bunch of eles. To the point, it got scary for a few seconds. No more venturing into the African bush unarmed!

Screwing around with little guns not only puts yourself in danger but also the PH. Wounding game with little guns forces the PH into dangerous situations. Is the PH going to save you? Or are you going to have to save the PH?

Mickey posed the question quite nicely. If you were hunting by yourself?

More power to the guys that stick buffalo with spears or hunt elephant with arrows, but I don't trust the PH that much!


500grains
(.416 member)
07/05/05 10:49 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I did a trick hunt once - I shot an elephant and buffalo with a .585 Nyati. It was a trick to hump that 13.25 pound rifle 10-15 miles per day. The PH saved me on the walks back to the truck by carrying my rifle. The trackers were too skinny to carry it.

atkinson6
(.375 member)
08/05/05 02:17 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Most of the PHs I know would step in front of a bullet for you, but its your duty to also take that same step IMO...I would be more interrested in a client being a good shot under stress than caliber of his rifle within reason, but if he can shoot a big kicker, that's a plus I suppose...I would also hope he had the presence to be loaded with solids on buffalo, Hippo, and elephant.

AdamTayler
(.375 member)
08/05/05 03:17 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?



AdamTayler
(.375 member)
08/05/05 03:50 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I thought Bob, rest his soul, was not even carrying a rifle when he was hit by the buffalo.

I am in the same boat as you. There may be grizzly in the area but I'm carrying a rifle for the game I'm hunting.

When push comes to shove, I trust myself to protect my own butt, however there is a sense of security when there is backup and I would hope a PH would do his all to help me if the case arose. And like Ray said, I would come to the PH's aid as well. I think it is better to think of the PH as a hunting partner rather than a babysitter.


Will
(.333 member)
08/05/05 06:31 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Of the many, many books I have read about elephant hunting, nary a one does not relate at least one near death experience. I guess the guys that got killed found it tough to write much!

A PH is a good thing to have along, to baby sit. I would be dead (no cheering please) if the PH, Doug Carlisle, hadn't been there to frighten off a ele cow that was coming while I was otherwise occupied.

There is a big difference between hunting DG by yourself and with a PH, or someone.



NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
09/05/05 01:38 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

I think it is better to think of the PH as a hunting partner rather than a babysitter.




I like that quotation. Great way to think about it.


Oldsarge
(.300 member)
09/05/05 08:54 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Would a PH save your life? Mine did. Even though the buff was perfectly hit with a serious cartridge, a .404 at 2400 fps, it still charged. Even with a second hit, it got within 25 yards (2 seconds!) before Marius spined it. We call it the Zombie Buffalo. Was I wishing for my .450 Rigby? Not until it was over, when I had time to be scared!

I like what Terry Wieland said. "No matter what game your are pursuing, when in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle." To that I would add buffalo country, lion country, grizzly country, etc. Now about a .375 for your light rifle . . .


Plains99
(.300 member)
12/05/05 12:27 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I agree with Steward on the "trick" hunt thing. I write a lot about blackpowder and muzzleloading. Took my plains game safari strictly with muzzleloaders. We were planning on going back for a Cape buffalo hunt with muzzleloaders. But upon reflection, I came to the decision that I not only owed it to myself but to my outfitter and his staff as well to go back there with the biggest and best round I could manage. In all this discussion about "will the PH save your life?" I keep coming back to "what about his life?" The tables could quickly turn and I'd hate like the devil to be standing there watching a man go down without an adequate gun to perhaps save his life. While I may take a muzzleloader back to Africa, I will also be carrying a big cartridge rifle. I have little interest in attempting a "stunt" hunt just to sell product. We already have too much of that in the muzzleloader industry as it is.

mngane
(.224 member)
12/05/05 03:25 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I agree that if you choose to go hunting nasty things that could very well kill you, you should be able to take the situation into your own hands. I dont feel that it is right to rely on your PH. I know it is his job and he is probably much better at it than you but what if?....... I was in a situation where I had a buffalo charge me and the PH (a very good hunter and absolutely competent) was behind some mopane very close to me but was unable to shoot. A fortuitous shot from my 470 stopped the charge at close range, dosent matter how far. What matters is that I had enough gun and was able to put the bullet in the right place. Well almost (was aiming for the brain but went over the horns and hit the spine....but that counts!!! im still here)
Cary enough gun and guts!


Mpofu
(.300 member)
12/05/05 05:59 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Is this, perhaps, what separates the modern day sportsmen from the true hunters of the past?
Having a PH to 'baby sit' a hunter is something people like Oswell, Selous and Cornwallis Harris did without.
One would fully accept the fact that for a hunter/trophy collecter with little or no bushcraft, on a short hunt for DG ,stepping off a plane in Africa, perhaps once a year, a PH is essential for a multitude of reasons, personal safety being one of them.(I include myself in this category).
The most important person to have along is a good tracker, or a good team of trackers. Every hunter in the past and every good PH relies on these guys, in fact it would be fair to say that a PH is to a larger extent, only as good as his trackers are.I have seen these guys sense danger or potential danger long before the PH becomes aware of it.
M


Plains99
(.300 member)
13/05/05 05:44 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Yes, but the PH and the trackers usually come as a package deal when a hunt is booked from overseas. I'd take the tracker I had over the PH any day but he can't book hunts and he doesn't have the connections that the PH has. I've read a lot of books on and by early African hunters and they admitted some pretty bad errors in their early years. Several of these guys talked at length about their relationships with certain trackers; some relationships lasting decades. It was obvious that the professional elephant hunters took great store in certain black men and considered them far more than just employees. I got the sense that they considered some of these men to be the backbone of their business.
And another thing, Mpofu, bushcraft here in the states is almost nonexistent. Most of the guys who book hunts for over there are really pitiful outdoorsmen and need all the help they can get. They are hunting off the top of a fat wallet and have very little knowledge of wild animals or animals in general for that matter. I listem to them talk about this trophy or that trophy, what it measured, what it weighed.... but honest appreciation of the hunt or the life and death relationship bond between the hunter and the prey blows right by them. I hope we're staying on topic but some of those guys need a PH that can save their ass because they sure couldn't. It is at the next level of knowledge or wisdom or skill that you as the hunter begin to be concerned about what you could do to your PH and the risk you could put him into through your own actions and ignorance.


Mpofu
(.300 member)
13/05/05 06:04 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Precisely my sentiment.
I did not actually want to spell it out, as I was a bit concerned about offending folk.
I sometimes wonder, if by sanitising DG hunting and making it a much safer sport, if we have lost some of the charm and excitement of the old safari. I recently watched a video, where a very fat and very unfit character collected a hatful of trophies. The spectale of this chap attempting to crawl into a lion hide was a really sad sight to behold.
I know it is not possible, but I would personally love to do a DG hunt in Africa with a couple of good trackers and no PH.The safari business would make sure this will not happen, it's jobs for the boys...
M


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
13/05/05 06:44 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Some trackers become PHs and some of the PHs have backgrounds similar to the trackers. For example the black PHs. Some have good reputations and would be great to hunt with. Some of course are relatives of important well placed VIPs. Same for white PHs of course.

I never knew where the term "White Hunter" came from but it was to distinguish then white hunter from the black hunters, as was mentioned a while back on this board. Nowadays we seem to call them PHs and trackers maybe (?)



Mpofu
(.300 member)
13/05/05 08:16 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

You are right. The term 'White Hunter' was first used for a couple of brothers who specialised in Lion Hunting, in Kenya.
The book 'Safari' by Bartle Bull, is an excellent account of the history of hunting in Africa.
M


wynwood1
(.224 member)
14/05/05 03:15 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

what's this talk of "trick hunts" pure rubbish I say!
A sport wishes to hunt buff with a bow & arrow fine that's their choice and the choice of a PH to hunt them or not. The "it must be a 375 or better crowd" should pull their snouts down a bit, quit puffing on those old cigars and just admit it is the hunters option and his dime.
I know when I go on safari I'm putting the good old US Greenbacks out to do it and make my intent known when booking. If a company wishes to decline me so be it another will not.
Look at Zimbabawe for example I can go there hunting buff with a bow an they don't as much as list min. draw weight to be used, let alone weight of shaft,cutting head etc.
Do I own a 458 Lott? yes I do will I use it again, no doubt but should I wish to stick a buff in the ribs with a shaft I will not consider it a "trick" I will consider it a hard won trophy that I HUNTED until I could get the proper shot angle for the weapon I am using. I do not think a shot with a .500 "at any angle" is sport hunting just to see what damage it will do...that I consider caddish!!


buffhunter
(.224 member)
14/05/05 05:24 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

My preference is to use a rifle that will do the job. A 375 mag is about the minimum I would wanna use. If hunting plains game I would use a rifle for that and not a dg rifle. I would not need to carry anything more.



mickey
(.416 member)
14/05/05 11:08 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

wynwood1

I understand your point. My questions is this. What happens if you make a poor shot with your bow? Do you follow up with the bow or do you grab a rifle?

If you are sneaking around, looking for the perfect shot, and are charged by a Buffalo, what do you do? Do you shoot it in the face with your arrow? Wait for the PH to shoot? What if all you hear from the PH is a click of a missfire?

Hunter's luck if someone is killed or injured? After all, you paid your money.



wynwood1
(.224 member)
14/05/05 10:03 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Mickey: I understand your point, It is possible with a bow and /or a rifle of any caliber to make a poor shot. Nothing to be proud of but only a fool would consider the possibility of the event. At that point yes I would FOLLOW my PH ( provided he allowed me to) with a rifle.
Do I expect or rely upon him to stop a charge if I'm standing there with a stick& string in my hand....surely I do. IF his gun fails or he himself fails....well then guess I'm a grease spot in the grass!
It is afterall DG hunting, and I know that going into it...that to me at least is the draw of the hunt. If a PH or tracker looses his life along with me well that is a hazard of their choosen profession,is it not? No different than should I loose mine in an industrial fire at home at work.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
14/05/05 11:57 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynwood

The place I hunted buff last at, had a couple guys bowhunting cape buffalo. One was shot well and was dropped and recovered. I don't know the details. The other was shot pretty well but still was followed up for two days and ended up crossing into the neighbouring property. The PH I think had he attitude that it was the clients hunt and also their responsibility, unless someone was endangered. So one did get away.

I still call these hunts a stunt, because the client if the buff ran towards the hunter rather than away, would be able to do absolutely nothing about it. The PH would have to save his ass. Even a .30-06 would be a better idea.

I think Mick or someone mentioned, would a bow hunter have a decent stopping rifle carried along as well, if needed. Do you do this?

Note I am not 'having a go', these comments are just a discussion. I have no problem with hunters choosing a bow if they wish. It is their money.

I haven't hunted buffalo with a bow, and really these two hunts are all I have heard lots of details about. Please share some of your experiences and photo for us all to enjoy.



wynwood1
(.224 member)
15/05/05 10:06 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

when I travel to my main home in Pennsylvania I shall dig out the scrap book scan a few pictures then send them along to you for the posting.
I hunted Zimbabawe for Old George with my bow twice. Twice I can out of it with the skull mount. I was then shooting an 82# Hoyt compound and Alum. shafts. The first bull I had a complete passthru with both lungs being hit. He and his commrade ran off into the dust. We allowed 1 hour then trailed him up ...only to find him within 50 yards stone dead. My second bull was not a passthru but I collapsed 1 lung and hit the top of his heart...this old boy ran almost 300 yds out into the ( he was in sight the entire time in short grass but laid up in head high reeds about 50 yards square. After waiting we circled to get the wind correct then my PH started in with me carrying a rifle the head tracker had been carrying right behind him. We literally walked up to within 10 feet of him before we saw him. He too was dead.
Intrestingly both bulls died just as fast as they would have with a single 458 Lott thru their lungs.
Nitro, you mentioned a second buff being wounded an tracked for 2 days. I doubt that it was a lethal hit with that shaft... poor shooting I presume for had the archer placed his shaft in a vital that buff wouldn't have cared if that vital was damaged by bullet or shaft.
With the popularity of archery hunting these days I honestly believe that more and more DG will be offered by companies looking to fill the bookings.


Will
(.333 member)
19/05/05 06:53 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

These topics always degenerate into bullshit.

"I shot myself a ____ with a sling shot, and I killed it good. Now that's real huntin'."

Now if you are for real and not just talking shit, and want to be a real hunter and experience the real thrill of hunting DG, walk up to a cow elephant with a calf or two with your sling shot, and tell her to fuck off. (Don't bother looking for the trackers, they'll be long gone, and so would I).

We'll see who gets f*cked, and there will be one less sling shot story to deal with again.



wynwood1
(.224 member)
19/05/05 08:51 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Reading your reply to me I find myself wondering why I'm typing at this momment at all, but alas I am. It would appear you are both short on manners and good vocabluary skills.
I do not know you from Adam nor do I care to, caring less than spit what you think of me. My question is why have you allowed your ego to take control of your keyboard?
My choosen weapon is a bow and arrow yours appears to be your keyboard.
May I suggest that you take your ill manners back to AR from which you migrated? There at least you have like minds to bolster your courage .


Mpofu
(.300 member)
20/05/05 04:39 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Hey Wynwood, don't be too harsh on this guy, after all he is the type of guy who needs a PH to 'baby sit' him !
Reckon he only threw a tantrum because he lost his dummy !
M


500grains
(.416 member)
20/05/05 06:31 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?


I really don't care if guys hunt buff with arrows, spears, swiss army knives or whatever. But if your equipment is not capable of handling all contingencies, then it's a stunt hunt and the PH will act as babysitter.



wynwood1
(.224 member)
20/05/05 08:42 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I'm glad you don't care 'cause I don't care if you do!
Apparently Tanz. thinks it's a legit way to hunt buff as the just legalized it.
I don't think a bull that just had his lungs cut to ribbons cares if it was with a bullet or a broadhead, how much deader than dead can one animal get?


500grains
(.416 member)
20/05/05 01:54 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

I don't think a bull that just had his lungs cut to ribbons cares if it was with a bullet or a broadhead, how much deader than dead can one animal get?




It's what he does between when the arrow hits and when he dies that matters. That could easily be 5-10 minutes. Hence the need for a babysitter...


Mpofu
(.300 member)
20/05/05 05:52 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

500 grains, in line with your reasoning, I take it the early pioneering hunters (Selous, Oswell, Cornwallis Harris etc..) were wrong to go out into the wilds of Africa with their inferior muzzle loaders, and , Heaven help us... without the services of a PH/Babysitter !!
Anyone who wants to take a Buff with a bow and arrow has my admiration and respect. I am sure they do their risk assessment, and know the dangers.
If one wants to really take the danger out of DG hunting , one may as well turn up in an armoured personnel carrier with a well zeroed RPG.
A rather well known PH reckoned that some hunters only used really heavy calibre weapons because they saw them as an extension of their penis, certainly not because they could shoot them !
Seriously though , choice of weapons is very much a personal thing, I certainly would not impose my choice of weapons on any other hunter.

M



wynwood1
(.224 member)
20/05/05 08:41 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I'd like to see the mammal that could live 5-10 minutes without the use of their lungs! surely they don't exist on this planet except in some people's minds.
For my tastes it is a bow and shaft if others aren't up to that task that's their problem, and for them I recommend sitting in the hunting truck and blasting away from there.


Plains99
(.300 member)
20/05/05 11:49 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Selous moved up with gun advancements as they developed... not so much because of power but because the old blackpowder guns were pounding him to pieces. I hunt with muzzleloaders and I've gone after some pretty big stuff with them. We took a 2,200 pound Indian River buffalo with .50 caliber rifles.... but there was a guy with a .470 double backing us up. And I must say, he was pretty damned nervous when we had to go into the bush after a wounded bull with only muzzleloaders to back him up. And that big fellow took a 600 grain slug through both lungs and was still on his feet 18 hours later when we finally brought him down. I'm sorry the bow hunter is so offended and I certainly don't want to leave the impression that I'm some sort of elitist but honestly... you wouldn't go into a dangerous game situation on the ground with a bow or a muzzleloader if you had an option. I can just imagine my reaction on a Cape buffalo hunt if my PH pulled out his BIG BOW to back me up. "Trick" hunting is a poor choice of terms. "Sport" hunting would be better. There is a difference and we all know it.

NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
21/05/05 12:09 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Plains99 - you posted at the same time as me. Very good post. I have heard of a lot of buffalo lasting for a good long time with a lung damaged.

***

Unfortunately nowadays the legal framework makes all this academic in most African countries.

Today it is sport hunting and people follow their own interests.

One client may choose to be independent and use a large big bore so as to handle any situation if things go well enough.

Another may wish to 'relive' a bygone age and hunt an elephant with black powder, as did Selous and co.

Yet another might want to try his skill with a bow and take a buffalo with a powerful draw.

Some of these ventures would no doubt result in the client being killed if they weren't backed up. Modern authorities understand this isn't good for future "sales" and reputations in their countries. I personally think that is a pity, I think "stunts" should be accompanied by an increase in the risk and danger. If that was the case I wouldn't call it a stunt anymore.

I don't see this is a need to argue. Individuals can follow their own paths and take responsibility for their actions. Very similar to the hunting of a water buffalo with a 6.5x54mm M-S which my friend is proposing. I have no doubt that 95% of the time it will be fine as he knows the game, the shot and is able to place the shot as well. For the 5% he will have to take responsibility if something else happens. Me too, as I will be there as well.

Have fun!


500grains
(.416 member)
21/05/05 12:37 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Mpofu, as I said, I don't care what you hunt with. But it would be a mistake to assume that archery equipment can save your butt if the buffalo heads your way. And if the muzzle loader of Gordon Cummings is what you want to hunt elephant with, go to it! (I assume you will travel to Africa via sailing ship and then to the safari area by ox cart?)

Wynwood, there are many documented accounts of cape buffalo surviving for years after being shot through the lungs.


The_Professor
(.224 member)
21/05/05 03:43 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I think the discussion using emotive words like "trick" hunting and "Baby Sitting" is unhelpful!

I hunt with a bow as well as rifles from 22 cal to 375 Weatherby. I have spent alot of time in Bow hunting camps as well as Rifle camps and have found most bow hunters to have magnificent hunting skills. If they do not they are rarely successful.

This is not always the case with the rifle people where some are shooters rather than hunters and sometimes not as skilled as they might be with their chosen firearms.

Of the bow hunters I have met who have hunted DG (in Australia this means Buff). All of them have been very experienced bow men looking for an extra challenge. The concept is to 'hunt' the Buff. That is stalk the buff to 20 yds such that the buff is unaware that you are there. If you are sprung you don't shoot. If you are not sprung, the Buff does not know where you are, you do not make any noise with the bow and the Buff has no way to charge you, except by bad luck or accident.

The concepts are not dis-similar with a single shot. You must be prepared to walk or stalk away from a situation where a bolt or double man might not have to.

With regard to the 'baby-sitter', I always consider my guide or PH as a partner. I discuss all aspects of the hunt with him for his approval, so that we have an accepted plan of action and an alternative if things go pear-shaped. I do not consider this to be baby-sitting but a highly professional process to get close to DG.

If all the danger is taken out of DG hunting, what's the point!

This post is not intended to disparage other hunters or shooters who choose to travel by another path but suggestions that what I do is somehow "trick" or requiring of a "baby-sitter" is a little harsh.

Regards,
The Professor.


wynwood1
(.224 member)
21/05/05 04:28 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

proffessor: well stated! the guys that rarely ever hunt/ed with a bow have little or no idea of what they speak of. Lung shots with a 3 bladed 125 gr BH or better produce massive amounts of bleeding..this you and I know.
I have hunted with rifles all my life from 22 LR up to my 458 Lott. I can speak inteligently about them as well as bows. I do not think the opposite can be said if a limited amount of archery knowledge is held by a rifle user.
Am I offended by this talking down of archers/ Yeah right someone whom made their profession as I did doesn't get offended anymore!


400NitroExpress
(.400 member)
21/05/05 04:33 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

"For my tastes it is a bow and shaft if others aren't up to that task that's their problem, and for them I recommend sitting in the hunting truck and blasting away from there."

Geez, and I thought Mark Sullivan was a pompous, unethical cad!

500 grains and I finally agree on something. "Stunt hunt" is essentially correct, although inclusion of the word "hunt" conveys a higher ethical standard than is factually present in the activity described.
------------------------------------------------------


Plains99
(.300 member)
21/05/05 04:49 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I certainly agree that in my area, most dedicated bow hunters are excellent outdoorsmen.... as are many experienced muzzleloader hunters. I also do not believe that this is a question of courage nor would I impune anyone's courage for their weaponry decisions. We started out discussing whether or not a PH can save a life and it went to, in my mind, the question of putting the PH in unusually difficult circumstances. Really it is the PH's choice and he knows what risks he is prepared to take with what clients. I have gone on some dangerous game hunts with muzzleloaders because I write about muzzleloaders and in all cases I was invited by a company. The idea (whether we like to admit it or not) is that we are "proving" the capability of the muzzleloaders or the support equipment to sell product. You've all seen the ads... especially with the writer using Knight rifles and 240 grain Nosler bullets. Sorry, guys, but this is "stunt" hunting and something I had to come to terms with after the Indian River buffalo hunt. We were undergunned from the beginning and if things had gone badly someone could have been seriously hurt or killed. I won't do it again. It isn't that I am afraid. It remains a question of responsibility. Dangerous game is seriously enjoyable hunting and I intend to do more of it until I am unable. Your PH is your partner but....he doesn't really know what you will do...or can do for that matter. I've seen some "big name" hunters fold up pretty badly in situations that weren't even life threatening. I'm not attacking anyone's choice of weaponry but the PH's butt is more on the line with certain choices than others. They need the money just as much as anyone else.... but I choose not to put one in such a situation again.

wynwood1
(.224 member)
21/05/05 05:24 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

if the company takes my booking knowing I am coming with a bow IMHO it is between them an the PHs that work for them to decide if the PH will take a bowhunter/muzzeloader.
when I am in the grass with that bow in my hand,how am I the client to know how the PH is going to react? It is a matter of trust on both sides.
but for the most part some of you are missing the point of archery. it being to stalk in close to unalerted game slip a shaft from a quite bow into their vitals. Any bowhunter can relate to how often they've sent a shaft thru an animal and except for a flinch the animal had no idea it was about to die a few seconds later....I've seen them go back to eating and simply fall over...the point being the animal doesn't know you're there.
I'll say it again for those lacking the courage to stalk in that close to DG don't! stay back at rifle range turn up your scope and blast from there, if that puts you at ease. But for my $ it is the D in DG that puts me in Africa to begin with.


shakari
(.400 member)
21/05/05 05:39 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Some years ago KZN wildlife asked one of their rangers (Tony Tompkinson) to do a study on the killing effects of a bow compared to a rifle. If I remember correctly Tony took 99 animals of all sizes (could have been more) with a bow and then the same number with a rifle. The rifle shot placement was similar in all cases as the bow shot animals. The outcome of the study was that bow & arrows were no less effective at killing than a rifle - but that's for killing and not charge stopping.

From my limited experience the average bowhunter has far better fieldcraft than the average rifle shot - if they didn't they would never take an animal due to the range factor.

I'm not a bowhunter myself and have never PH'd a Buffalo bowhunt - but I'd be happy to do so as long as the bowhunter could pull the appropriate weight and as long as I had my .500 along in case things got sticky....... there would obviously be an agreement between myself and the client about when I would consider it time to shoot.

My biggest passion on Earth is close range Buff hunting. If I had one last day on the planet, I'd spend it hunting Buffalo if I could and as far as I'm concerned the client is the guy who's paying the bills - so it's his hunt.

Hell, he could slap it on the ass with a cricket bat or use a catapult if he wanted to.


400NitroExpress
(.400 member)
21/05/05 09:10 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Plains99:

Beautifully stated. You got what far too many "sportsmen" miss.

For hunting to be ethical, there must be a fundamental respect for the game animal and recognition of the hunter's responsibility to it - to take it as cleanly and humanely as possible. I've always thought Elmer Keith said it best: "Many hunters today are apparently small-bore crazy, seemingly wanting to kill as large game as lives with as light and small a bore of rifle as possible, throwing the lightest bullet obtainable; even to hunting big game with the .22 Hornet.......Certainly it is not sportsmanship they display." Elmer wrote that 60 years ago, but the same craze - "stunt" killing in all its forms (elk with a .243, buffalo with a splinter, stick and string, etc.) - is still just as prevalent today as it ever was.

The inclusion of Dangerous Game adds another dimension of responsibility. In most places dangerous game is found today, you won't be hunting alone, and the client has a responsibility to the legally mandated PH. He isn't rich, he's just an ordinary work-a-day guy trying to make a living, often with a wife and kids to support, in a difficult, sometimes hazardous business. That the PH accepts hazard is implied, but to what extent? His primary responsibility is to keep the client alive. The client's responsibility to the PH is to not make that any more hazardous for the PH than is ordinary and necessary.

And nobody is perfect. If, despite best efforts and an adequate rifle, I shoot a buffalo in the guts and he's on his way over, my responsibility is to do my best to stop the charge, as will my PH. For this I will need a rifle of appropriate pattern and power, as does the PH. Lets say that all fails and the PH gets hammered (it is usually the PH, not the client). First, that is the extent of the implied risk that a Dangerous Game PH should be expected to accept, but no more. Second, he may have signed up for the risk, but I fucked up and the blame for his injuries will be, to some extent, unavoidably, mine. Living with that would be hard enough. Were something like that to happen while I was trying to pull off a stunt with a totally inappropriate weapon, I could never justify it, and living with it would be gall and wormwood.

I'm sure a few PHs are thrill addicts who invite such antics. Generally though, it seems to me that asking a PH to accept responsibility for you while you grand-stand by stunt-killing a buffalo with a splinter, stick and string, or an ele with a .275 Rigby, reflects an ignorance of and/or a disrespect for his position. He may say no, and he may not be able to afford to. Sorry guys, this isn't hunting, its stunt killing, and does not involve sportsmen.
-------------------------------------





The_Professor
(.224 member)
21/05/05 11:31 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Hi Plains99,

Your ethical position re the muzzle loader is laudable. However the circumstances are quite different. Using the hunt as a promotional vehicle specifically to sell muzzleloaders, possibley to the inexperienced, specifically for DG is fraught with ethical issues.

A very experienced bow hunter, hunting DG in partnership with an experienced guide who has agreed to the hunting plan and is prepared for the consequenses should the hunt go pear-shaped, is in my view an ethical and honourable way to hunt DG.

Regards,
The Professor.


JPK
(.375 member)
21/05/05 12:06 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I've got experience with a bow here in our whitetail woods and I will say that it takes better "woodsmanship", more patience, and more time on a per shot basis compared to our shotgun limited areas which take more of the same than our rifle areas.

I'm not so sure that wynwood has the cause and effect relationship between woodsmanship or skill and bowhunting or rifle hunting down. Most guys I know bow hunt because it gives them months more opportunity to hunt deer; always the desire to learn the skills and often the skills are already there. Guys who muzzleloader hunt do it for the same reason. Its legal here to hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season and with either a bow or muzzleloader during "firearms season" which may be limited to shotguns or open to rifles as well depending on the area. I have yet to see a fellow, who wasn't a felon, hunt deer with a bow during gun season and only during muzzleloader season because they didn't own one. Remember that just because the hunter is toting a shotgun or rifle doesn't mean that he's not shooting his deer at 10 or 20 or 30 yds; he may well be he just isn't limited to that range. Most of the deer I've shot in the last decade were shot at maybe 20-30 yds.

I've not yet shot buff but I've sure seen a lowly whitetail go a hell of a long way with lungs either cut to shreds or turned to jelly. More than plenty far enough to get to the shooter whether short distance with a bow or shotgun or rifle or middlin with a shotgun or rifle.

Also there is no such thing as the silent bow. They all make noise; some worse than others. If you haven't seen deer duck or jump the string you haven't done much deer hunting, at least whitetail hunting, with a bow. More often than not it seems the blast of a shotgun or a rfle reverberates enough the game doesn't know where its coming from. This fact is what began the debate over ejectors or extractors for DGRs about a hundred years ago and even over internal or external hammers before that.

One thing to miss or wound or graze a whitetail, another to do the same to dangerous game. I've dispatched three or four deer I've come upon during bow season that were wounded; some pretty mobile, all suffering miserably. What would have happened if it had been a Buff and some poor, unlucky villager or a tracker from the next safari group...

I hope my PH this Oct is a partner rather than a babysitter and I think it only pulling my own weight in that relationship to make sure that is what happens. I believe he will be equiped and prepared to do his best to pull my fat out of the fire if the need arises or the trackers or anyone elses. I know I will be equiped and prepared as best as possible to do the same for him or the trackers or...

I think its just an out of place ego thing to try to tackle dangerous game with an inadequate weapon. Can you kill any DG animal with a bow? Sure, but why would you try? Ego? Got something to prove? To yourself? To your wife or friends or me or... ? Hunt with what you want but don't expect any extra awe or respect from me and maybe just the opposite for not being in a position to pull your own weight if the unexpected "shit happens" happens unprovoked or god forbid because you blow the shot or your shaft is deflected, the bull moves...

On the playin' with the big tool comment about those with big bore bolts or doubles it sounds alot like its coming from the same crowd that needs to repeat to themselves "its not the size of the wand but the magic in it."

Same issues aply to shooting DG with a 45/70 which is something winwood lays claim to and supports with the same "for the guy with the skill.." arguement on another forum. Apparently he's shot three Buff in Namibia with a 45/70 and is going to post photos of those as well when he returns from Alaska(?) to his more permanent residence in Pa.

Seems weak in several ways to show up handicapped in such a manner that you can't hope to pull a member of the team's fat out of the fire if you need too, especially if you put it there to start with with an inadequate weapon.

JPK


wynwood1
(.224 member)
21/05/05 09:55 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

JPK in reply to your comments pointed at me, you live in MD I have my "home" res. in Pa drive over after 6/15 and visit can't be more than 2-3 hrs drive.
You've never met an archer whom carried their bow in rifle/MZ season? I suggest you come here to Pa then, or check the Bowsite.com/Pa as it is veru popular among serious archers to do so.
You mention my killing old george with a 45/70 yes that is true but you fail to mention I've done it with archery gear as well. Did you see the load I use posted in the other site/ TREX won't walk away from one of them. I've also killed brown bear with my longbow too, that should really raise your brow. But when you arrive at my home you shall see all the pics you'd care to look at and the animals.
Send me a PM with your cell # and I will call you with directions.
Stun? I think a guy driving an auto and not knowing tire pressure in 4 tires @ 70 MPH with his family aboard as traffic passes by within arm's reach is a grand stunt yet I'll bet 99.9% of the readers here don't know the tread pattern or PSI on their family sedan at this very momment!


JPK
(.375 member)
22/05/05 12:05 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynnwood,

I didn't feel the need to reiterate your buff with bow since its in your posts on this thread; you also alluded to the bear(s?) in this thread too, I believe.

In your posts on the other forums you at least give lip service to the limitations of the 45/70 ie only really close, broadside heart/lung shots..., here you seem to be backing off from that with the TREX comment. Was rereading Gregor Woods' book last night in which he quotes Selous and others regarding the inadequacy of the 450 Express with relatively heavy and hard cast bullets. Ditto their comments on the 500 Express. Nothing has changed in 100 years and the 45/70 loads your talking about are in the same legue as the 450 Express. That cartridge was well thought of as a deer and antelope round, what more needs to be said.

Here's a good quote, Woods quoting Samuel Baker:

"For all animals above the size of fallow deer and below that of the buffalo I prefer the 577 solid Express-648 grains solid bullet, 6 drams powder...For smaller game, from fallow deer downward, I prefer the 400 Express...[A]ll animals from a buffalo upward should be placed in a seperate catagory...I do not think any larger bore is actually necessary than a No. 8, with a charge of 12 or 14 drams of powder...It may therefore be concluded that for a man of ordinary strength, the battery for for the heaviest game should be pair of double No.8 rifles weighing 14 or 15 pounds, to burn from 12 to 14 drams of powder, with a hardened bullet of 3 ounces. SUCH A RIFLE WILL BREAK THE BONES OF ANY ANIMAL FROM AN ELEPHANT DOWNWARD, AND WOULD RAKE A BUFFALO FROM END TO END, WHICH IS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE WHEN THE BEAST IS CHARGING."

The last sentanced emphasized by me.

Even in historical perspective, makes the 45/70 look pretty anemic, let alone a bow.

On the 45/70 issue, which I didn't really want to get into since it ussually seems to turn into a pissing match, its advacates are always talking of their 400 or even 450 grain bullets at 1800-2000 and either comparing them to the 450/400 NE or to the 458. The 450/400 400 grainers have more velocity and probably more critical to their success, from all I have read, they have much greater sectional density. Until the monometal 450 grain 458 bullets changed things somewhat all advise from manufacturers was too steer clear of the lighter bullets in the 458 for dangerous game and these are moving at 2400 +/-.Most still advise against 458 bullets lighter than the 480 grainers of the 450 NE etc.

African DG hunting now and in the past is and was a team sport. The greats of the past had trackers and gunbearers and so do PH's now and when we hunt we become part of that team. I believe a hunter should be equiped to carry his weight as a team member. Amoungst other obligation, such as learning to shoot well and practising, it is incumbent upon him to use enough gun to keep or get a team member out of trouble, especially if he's the one that got him in trouble to start with. Neither the bow nor the 45/70 comes close to meeting that requirement.

My thoughts (and the thoughts of Samuel Baker too !)

JPK


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
22/05/05 12:26 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

A story from a hundred year ago. How relevant the comments here are to this thread.

... this is the power every ele-gun should possess ..

"This is the power which every elephant-gun should possess: it should have an elephant's head under complete command in every attitude.



The full story.

"My friend Palliser and I were out shooting on the day previous, and we had spent some hours in vainly endeavouring to track up a single bull elephant. I forget what we bagged, but I recollect well that we were unlucky in finding our legitimate game. That night at dinner we heard elephants roaring in the Yallé river,
upon the banks of which our tent was pitched in fine open forest. For about an hour the roaring was continued, apparently on both sides the river, and we immediately surmised that our gentleman friend on our side of the stream was answering the call of the ladies of some herd on the opposite bank. We went to sleep with the intention of waking at dawn of day, and then strolling quietly along with only two gun-bearers each, who were to carry my four double No 10's, while we each carried a single barrel for deer.

The earliest gray tint of morning saw us dressed and ready, the rifles loaded, a preliminary cup of hot chocolate swallowed, and we were off while the forest was still gloomy; the night seemed to hang about it, although the sky was rapidly clearing above.

A noble piece of Nature's handiwork is that same Yallé forest. The river flows sluggishly through its centre in a breadth of perhaps ninety yards, and the immense forest trees extend their giant arms from the high banks above the stream, throwing dark shadows upon its surface, enlivened by the silvery glitter of the fish as they dart against the current. Little glades of rank grass occasionally break the monotony of the dark forest; sandy gullies in deep beds formed by the torrents of the rainy season cut through the rumbling soil and drain toward the river. Thick brushwood now and then forms an opposing barrier, but generally the forest is beautifully open, consisting of towering trees, the leviathans of their race, sheltering the scanty saplings which have spring from their fallen seeds. For a few hundred yards on either side of the river the forest extends in a ribbon-like strip of lofty vegetation in the surrounding sea of low scrubby
jungle. The animals leave the low jungle at night, passing through the forest on their way to the river to bathe and drink; they return to the low and thick jungle at break of day and we hoped to meet some of the satiated elephants on their way to their dense habitations.

We almost made sure of finding our friend of yesterday's trek, and we accordingly kept close to the edge of the river, keeping a sharp eye for tracks upon the sandy bed below.

We had strolled for about a mile along the high bank of the river without seeing a sign of an elephant, when I presently heard a rustle in the branches before me, and upon looking up I saw a lot of monkeys gamboling in the trees. I was carrying my long two-ounce rifle, and I was passing beneath the monkey-covered boughs, when I suddenly observed a young tree of the thickness of a man's thigh shaking violently just before me.

It happened that the jungle was a little thicker in his spot, and at the same moment that I observed the tree shaking almost over me, I passed the immense stem of one of those smooth-barked trees which grow to such an enormous size on the banks of rivers. At the same moment that I passed it I was almost under the trunk of a single bull elephant, who was barking the stem with his tusk as high as he could reach, with his head thrown back. I saw in an instant that the only road to his brain lay through his upper jaw, in the position in which he was standing; and knowing that he would discover me in another moment, I took the eccentric line for his brain, and fired upward through his jaw. He fell stone dead, with the silk patch of the rifle smoking in the wound.

Now in this position no light gun could have killed that elephant; the ball had to pass through the roots of the upper grinders, and keep its course through hard bones and tough membranes for about two feet before it could reach the brain; but the line was all right, and the heavy metal and charge of powder kept the ball to its work.

This is the power which every elephant-gun should possess: it should have an elephant's head under complete command in every attitude."



"Eight Years Wandering in Ceylon" by Samuel W. Baker Chapter 6


mickey
(.416 member)
22/05/05 01:58 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In defense of Wynwood, he stated earlier that he used a big bore rifle as his back up weapon and would have no hesitation in using it as such if the game turned.

I hope he didn't mean a 45-70.

I think Bowhunters tend to think pretty highly of themselves as hunters though. Granted, to correctly stalk and kill an animal with a bow you need good skill. Unfortunately I would say the average Bowhunters do not possess this skill. Here in WA some of the Elk areas have been closed to Bows because of the numbers of wounded animals that were lost to die and not recovered. One local yokel bragged about 'sticking' 5 animals before he killed one.

I remeber a Ted Nugent video of his shooting a Rhino with a bow. After putting a couple of arrows in it and leaving it for the next day they used a Helo to find it. He put a couple of more arrows in it and then turned to the camera and said screw it. He took a .375 and finished it. He stated that a bow was of insufficent power to cleanly take a Rhino.

I always admired his honesty and the fact that he did not edit the tape as some other have done.


NE450No2
(.375 member)
22/05/05 04:08 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

NitroX
Excellent story.
I agree with it 100%
Several times in Zim we would "turn a corner" while hunting other game and elephants would be right there, "danger close". Many times this happened when hunting plains game with my 9,3x74R double. When it did I would immediately, and SILENTLY load 2 Woodleigh Solids, and we would back away from the elephants.
I felt a lot more comfortable when this happened with my 450 No2 in my hands.

I think anyone who hunts DG owes it to the people around him to carry an adequate gun, and have practiced enough to have the skill to use it.


wynwood1
(.224 member)
22/05/05 04:45 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

how did we go from sticking Old George with a shaft to suddenly turning a corner and bumping a ele or flinging shafts into a Rhino or even what one local yokel did to the elk herd?
The PH is expected to keep me from pumping an ele or lion, etc. and if he doesn't then he's dam well expected to have an adequate firearm to quickly get us all out of trouble PDQ! That is one of the reasons I hire the PH to begin with isn't it?
If I wanted to hunt with a 500 I would. If I wanted to use my Searcy I would but these days I choose to use a Hoyt Xtech or my own handmade bamboo backed yew 62" 87# longbow, which weapon I opt for is my choice. and as Shakari put it it is my dime, if I wanted to stalk in to 25 yds and snap a pic of a herd of buff the PH would be backing me with his rifle the same as he would with my bow in my hands.
I've said it before.... if Ole George on a spit at 25 yds is too much for you PLEASE DON'T ATTEMPT TO DO IT! stay back behind a tree @ 100 yds and us it for a rest. Both you an your PH will be glad you did.


500grains
(.416 member)
22/05/05 08:43 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

The PH is expected to keep me from pumping an ele or lion, etc. and if he doesn't then he's dam well expected to have an adequate firearm to quickly get us all out of trouble PDQ! That is one of the reasons I hire the PH to begin with isn't it?




Yes, that is the babysitting function which was mentioned several times earlier in this thread.

In reply to:

...if Ole George on a spit at 25 yds is too much for you PLEASE DON'T ATTEMPT TO DO IT!




Personally I will not shoot buff or ele at 25 yards because it is too far. The range needs to be clearly inside of 20 yards for it to be interesting at all. Your preference may differ.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
22/05/05 09:02 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

how did we go from ....




I think Mickey started the topic and it was about whether or not a client should carry a firearm suitable for all or most eventualities if hunting in DG country.

I don't think it was about the pros and cons of bow hunting except in the context of the question.

In reply to:

I've said it before....








JPK
(.375 member)
22/05/05 01:12 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynnwood,

You ended your posts on other forums where some disagreed with you with the same end you place here.

Its a petty try at ducking responding to the reasons and reasoning of those who disagree with you, whether its me or NitroExpress, 500Grains or Samuel Baker.

I've never hunted buff and so am less qualified to comment than some others. My baptism comes this Oct and I will get to do it twice then. I like 500Grains' response though, kinda puts things in perspective, you don't need to use an inadequate weapon to get close, you don't need your PH to babysit you when you're close either ; get close and use an adequate weapon.

The ad hominem attack in which you imply you're the one and only with nuts big enough to sway because you choose to hunt under conditions in which your choice of arms make your PH your babysitter and in which you imply that those who choose to use an adequate weapon are nutless and should hide with their PH's behind distant trees and shoot at long range is just weak.

As I said earlier, do what you want but don't look to me for awe and respect; I'll reserve that for the non pro who is equiped mentally, physically and with a weapon adequate to actually save a member of the team that hunts DG. (Not that I don't respect the pro who does it either!)

From your post here and elsewhere you've told of shooting a buff in Namibia with a bow and three, also in Namibia, with a 45/70 but you've never shot buff with the 458 Lott you said you have or the Searcy of unmentioned caliber that you also said you have. Why? Thats a question you have not adressed, and what are you trying to prove to yourself or others? I have great difficulty understanding why a man would place himself in danger knowing that he HAD to rely on another.

JPK


wynwood1
(.224 member)
22/05/05 10:03 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

JPK let us get something straight right now, I couldn't care less if you, Will, 500 gr or anyone else as you stated,"looks at me with awe or respect".
you mention the need to be some sort of super hero to hunt with an "inadequate weapon" and why don't I use my 500 or my Searcy. 1st I choose to use my 45-70 and a bow 2nd those buff were killed in Zimbabawe not Namibia as you seem to enjoy refering to. 3rd I did not mention killing buff with my 458 Lott because that was not my point of reference in those posts on another forum, (FTR I have killed 19 of the species with several different weapons).4th you seem to have the attitude that only a "truely responsible,ethical hunter goes afield with what you deem "sufficent firepower" or else they are being babysat...may I offer this,some of the very finest hunters I know. In fact some of the finest hunters of all time carried NO WEAPON other than a camera into the field in search of DG with NO PH at their side at all! If legal I wouldn't use a PH to pursue DG either.
Go draw some blood of a free range Old George (your first) live the experience you've read about . Then repeat that 18 times over a few scores of years or so. Come back here and tell me you haven't the slightest urge to add a bit more excitement to the saga. Then an only then you have the right to judge me. A judgement BTW I could not care less the results of.
I repeat my dime I'll use what is legal and at my option. Your dime you call the shots. You wish to put those dimes up for me, by all means I will allow you to set the limitations. Heck! knocking dust off George's mud caked hide with a 460 Weatherby held some of my attention for many years too!


JPK
(.375 member)
22/05/05 11:17 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynnwood,

Only you believe hunting buff with a bow or an inadequate rifle makes you a superhero.

Don't forget that according to you the mere mortals who choose an adequate weapon need to hide behind distant trees with relieved PH's.

For all your talk about it being your dime and anything legal you want to hunt with...The 45/70 isn't legal. Rather than focus on what an inexperienced guy like myself should deem to be a sufficient weapon how 'bout we just rely, for the minimum weapon, on the parks and game department of Zimbabwe? Or Namibia? Or Tanzania?...

If you're not looking for some reafirmation of your superhero status for using inadequate weapons why keep bringing it up on the three or four forums as you have?

On my inexperience, I figure to get to seventeen buff by the time I'm fifty, which isn't a decade away, unfortunalely. Til then I'll rely on the vast experience of fellows like Selous or Baker or Woods or Robertson passed on in print or on the likes of Ray or 500grains or Saeed or Keith Atcheson or Bodington here and on other forums and media who have that experience and from the point of the hunter too. You have slim company from the experienced group. If the thrill of the hunt fades or my respect for the quarry fades whether its deer or ducks or buff I guess I'd have to hunt something else, but with an adequate weapon.

JPK

PS the diference between the guy who camera hunts and the guy who uses an inadequate weapon is stark. First is that a bad camera shot captures the brush and thats it. A good shot captures the bull. In neither case is the bull actually involved. Not so when the goal is to kill him. Also if there is no PH and no tracker than the camera man is only putting himself at risk and only relying on himself, gotta respect that.


wynwood1
(.224 member)
23/05/05 03:50 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Me a superhero??? Cripes I'd better get my cape pressed,don't confuse my making a comment about ANYONE staying within their comfort range and my choices ( I believe you used the crass terms NUTS,did you not?) to extend my comfort zone to keep the D in DG for ME.
Was a time when I was younger that the 45-70 was indeed legal for George. Also you suggest we allow Zim., Namibia,Tanz to set the min. for George....well I hate to burst your bubble but each says archery gear is legal!
My "bringing it up on the 3 or 4 forums" is exactly what forums are intended for. Not everyone needs to feel they must be smoking Cubans,drinking Gin & Tonic or high dollar Scotch, and toteing a $30,000 DBL gun to be a true African safari treker. Truth be told I can well afford these pleasures and have indulged in them myself, but being "Continental" I have other interests.
Your inexperience is shown well, I've read all the "old Africa" works as well. While admireing the before mentioned living hunters I do not elevate them to icons as apparently you have. They are men, an only men, that I'd imagine would be the very first to tell you that themselves. Fifty is sadly more than a handful of years behind me now. BUT nothing bodes your age and inexperience quite as well as your PS comment....for when afield one is not at the local drive by zoo watching some tame lioness flick flies off her muzzle thru the rolled up auto window. Be you carrying a camera,bow or Searcy. Old George doesn't need an excuse to push out his chin and make a dash at you. He is as apt to take offense at being disturbed from his tail switching noon time siesta by the faint aroma of a shutterbug as a .375 smacking into his shoulder.
I'm off to Namibia on my next trip which is too long in coming. Followed by another booked already to Tanz to be one of the first modernday hunters there to kill a buff with archery gear...it's legal there now!
BTW I hunt ducks & geese in Tx,ND,Sask, AK, and Pa with a 20 ga....bet you're one of the 12ga. 3 1/2" crowd aren't you?


500grains
(.416 member)
23/05/05 01:51 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

I know when I go on safari I'm putting the good old US Greenbacks out to do it and make my intent known when booking. If a company wishes to decline me so be it another will not.




Sounds like you haven’t been yet. Someone who has been on 19 buffalo hunts would write, "Every time I sent on safari I put up the good old US Greenbacks and made by intent known when booking." But you write as if it has not happened yet.

In reply to:

I'd like to see the mammal that could live 5-10 minutes without the use of their lungs!




Then why wait a full hour before following up on a buff with an arrow through his chest, as you said you did? Surely 11 minutes would have been long enough to wait.

In reply to:

JPK let us get something straight right now, I couldn't care less if you, Will, 500 gr or anyone else as you stated,"looks at me with awe or respect". you mention the need to be some sort of super hero to hunt with an "inadequate weapon" and why don't I use my 500 or my Searcy. 1st I choose to use my 45-70 and a bow 2nd those buff were killed in Zimbabawe not Namibia as you seem to enjoy refering to. 3rd I did not mention killing buff with my 458 Lott because that was not my point of reference in those posts on another forum, (FTR I have killed 19 of the species with several different weapons).4th you seem to have the attitude that only a "truely responsible,ethical hunter goes afield with what you deem "sufficent firepower" or else they are being babysat...may I offer this,some of the very finest hunters I know. In fact some of the finest hunters of all time carried NO WEAPON other than a camera into the field in search of DG with NO PH at their side at all! If legal I wouldn't use a PH to pursue DG either. Go draw some blood of a free range Old George (your first) live the experience you've read about . Then repeat that 18 times over a few scores of years or so. Come back here and tell me you haven't the slightest urge to add a bit more excitement to the saga. Then an only then you have the right to judge me. A judgement BTW I could not care less the results of.
I repeat my dime I'll use what is legal and at my option. Your dime you call the shots. You wish to put those dimes up for me, by all means I will allow you to set the limitations. Heck! knocking dust off George's mud caked hide with a 460 Weatherby held some of my attention for many years too!




19 is quite a respectable number of buffalo to shoot. Did you take trophy photos? Everyone here likes to see trophy photos.

In reply to:

Was a time when I was younger that the 45-70 was indeed legal for George.




Can you tell us what year that was? You already posted that you used your 45/70 to shoot buffalo in ZIM. But Zim has had a legal cartreidge minimum for buffalo and other DG for several decades. So you must be a very old fellow for the statement in your post to be accurate.


JPK
(.375 member)
23/05/05 02:49 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynnwood,

When was it legal to hunt buff with a 45/70 where you hunted with a 45/70? My sugestion was re minimum rifle and the 45/70 doesn't make it and hasn't since minimums were adopted very long ago. I never questioned the legality of your buff bow hunts, just the motivation.

Obviously your comfort zone re range overlaps others when hunting DG. The difference comes up when it includes inadequate weapons, particularly illegal inadequate weapons. You put unecessary D in DG hunting for yourself but also for many more than yourself, thus you need to rely on others rather than be one others may rely on.

I consider it foolishness to hunt DG with an inadequate firearm, or a bow, but if you were alone, on the other hand, you would be relying on yourself and putting only yourself at risk, at least at that moment. Still seems to show a lack of respect for the quarry, in that the animal whether duck or deer or buff should be killed without undue delay and suffering and a lack of respect for the next sob that comes walking by the wounded buff that did you in or got away.

On the photo issue, thats the point. He may take offense but you're relying on yourself and your error won't get anyone else killed or injured, including some later passerby. You also make my point why a man ought to carry an adequate weapon. And you make the point that the man who doesn't needs to rely the one who does.

On the respect I have for the opinion of Woods or Selous or Baker or Boddington or Robertson or others, I don't think they're demigods, merely very accomplished journeymen. What makes me rely on their collective opinions is that each, through his own, unique experience, has come to a conclusion very similar to almost all other accomplished journeymen. Sure there are outliers, I recall reading that Harry Manners relied on the 375H&H his whole career for all DG, but it was legal of course. Still, the greater bulk of journeymen came to the opinion that a very good bit more weapon is needed, if the man using it is to rely on the weapon in HIS hands to kill DG and to keep himself and others safe.

Got to love the reverse snobbery. I guess all those PH's who either shoot or yearn for a big bore NE double are wannabe DuPonts eh? Couldn't have anything to do with performance or reliability. I'm sure the guy smoking Swisher Sweets, drinking hootch and shooting what passes for a factory rifle today could never prefer a good handrolled, single malt or custom bolt rifle or double, and surely couldn't recognize their atributes.

I'm unfamiliar with your reference to being a "Continental"; never heard the term used except to describe the origin of a person or thing. Not sure which traits or charecteristics are implied.

On the ducks and geese issue, I hunt them in Delaware, Maryland and Virginia and in Mexico and Argentina. I use an adequate gun with an adequate load. This varies with the quarry. I avoid using steel shot since it is a great cripler and better alternatives are available. I prefer Kent Cartridge Company's Tungsten Matrix in this country since it patterns well and kills well and can be shot in any shotgun with an apropriate chamber and proof, including any doubles. I like shot size 5 for ducks ( I buy it by the case or I'd go smaller for teal and woodducks early), and number 1's for geese. For the larger Canada races I don't think a 20ga is adeqaute even with so called magnum loads. Too many criples go on to die useless and lingering deaths.

I don't think posting the post you do across the various forums and getting the similar replies you do is what the forums are really for. More like boasting or seeking respect, awe or reafirmation to me. On go-on-safari.com you didn't push the same line near as hard as you did on AR or here, and you left out the ad hominem attacks too but Phil Lazzano made it clear that the 45/70 BS was just that. You pushed even harder on World Shooter where reafirmation was all but assured and you were free with implied nutless label for all who disagreed. You've gotten plenty of replies similar to mine though, and that ought to give you pause. Trolling?...Maybe not, but close

JPK


EricD
(.416 member)
23/05/05 06:03 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynwood1,

You keep using the term "Old George", and it has me wondering. Where, or from whom did you get this term for buffalo? In all the african countrys I've been in, and of all the PH's I've known or hunted with, no one I've met has used it?

Please enlighten me.

Erik


wynwood1
(.224 member)
23/05/05 09:05 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Erik: you asked a question as to where I heard the term Old George.
I read it somewhere, it stuck and a few of my friends an I refer to cape buffalo as "Old George" now and again. Nothing of importance just a term surely nothing more than Mogumbo,Cappy,Sharky,Black Death, etc.


JPK: my final reply in response to you as it seems you're more interested in arguement to entertain yourself than anything else.
If you think you read any post by me on World.....something or other you are mistaken. I do not nor have ever visited that site. BTW I'm vexed as to why you never sent me that PM asking for directions to my home on the East Coast. You seem rather intent on trying to discredit an old man, could it be you realize you will be the fool if you do show up? Sitting down for a jigger of Wild turkey looking at some stuffy old mounts is still a comfort to an old man so please do. Also if you would've ask Phil you would get the reply about where HE & I plan to hunt buff with OUR BOWS! Reading that forum should have informed you to what my carry arm is as well for DG followup work both here in AK and abroad ( a custom 10ga SxS 3 1/2" ) or did you skip that part?
As for your opinion of inadaquate weapons for George...well let me just state they are like a part of everyone's anatomy, we've all got one but some of us try not to act like one! A lesson you would do well to take to heart!


500 you have asked several times to see pictures of my den or trophies. I have said I am away from the East Coast presently but will be back "home" in mid to late June. Upon further thought your constant requests seem along the lines of JPK. for that reason alone I have decided to just say "bugger off"...I am long past feeling the need to "prove myself" to the internet sorts as yourself, Those decades you ask upon (45-70) reach back to era WWII when safaris were truely safaris and just getting across the big salt pond was time consuming. Think what you may, rationalize whatever you wish in regards to me, matters little. I will however extend the same offer to you I did to him...PM me with your request to stop by my home in Pa d I shall reply with directions/dates etc.
Good Day to all!


500grains
(.416 member)
23/05/05 11:35 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynwood,

So you hunted buffalo in Zim with a 45-70 in the "WWII era", have shot 19 buffalo, won't post pics, and we can all "bugger off"? I wonder why you would bother to post at all if that is all you can come up with.


wynwood1
(.224 member)
24/05/05 12:31 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I hunted in Zim more recently than that with Andy Kockott (sp?) Safaris on the Zambizi also farther North at Mhondoro. My reason for being coy with "information' is because I do not enjoy being put to questions. Frankly, I resent it! Therefore I purposely advoid the issue...a byproduct of 50 years of my profession
500 where do you hail from/ near Pa? Why not jog over here we'll tip a glass of Red Lable when in the area.Wyn


EricD
(.416 member)
24/05/05 01:00 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

Erik: you asked a question as to where I heard the term Old George.
I read it somewhere, it stuck and a few of my friends an I refer to cape buffalo as "Old George" now and again. Nothing of importance just a term surely nothing more than Mogumbo, Cappy,Sharky,Black Death, etc.





I thought that "Mogumbo" was what black people in the southern US said when they want "More Gumbo"? Gumbo being the thick stew/soup made by creoles...

Or did you mean Mbogo?



NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
24/05/05 01:13 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Talking about names. Nyati is used for cape buffalo as well. It was interesting to hear it used on by South African ghetto blacks as a name for a black female prostitute as well. I thought Nyati was Swahili for buffalo and Mbogo was Zulu (or a South African language) for buffalo.

???


wynwood1
(.224 member)
24/05/05 01:14 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

actually it is the residents of La. that say Mo'Gumbo which is alias for stew just as Black Death is alias of Old George

EricD
(.416 member)
24/05/05 01:38 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

NitroX,

Both Mbogo and Nyati are Swahili for buffalo. How/when the words were adopted by people in southern africa, I don't know. Or perhaps it originated in the south, and was later spread up to east africa?

Erik


500grains
(.416 member)
24/05/05 03:19 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Wynwood, if you are in western PA, it would be about 1800+ miles for me to drive.

Have you ever met Carmelo Lisciotto?


shakari
(.400 member)
24/05/05 03:21 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

FWIW, Nyati means Buffalo in both Zulu & Swahili - but in Swahili a wounded Buff is Mbogo......or at least, that's what I was taught.

wynwood1
(.224 member)
24/05/05 03:31 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

tack another 300 on cause I keep a home in eastern Pa., well the offer is still good anyway.
Ever get near San Angelo Texas/ I've got some land down there for deer, turkey hunting.
Carmelo Esticotti/ can't say I've ever made the aquaintance, though I have seen posts by him on AR. Isn't he the guy that has the forum worldhunter.com or something along those lines?


new_guy
(Sponsor)
24/05/05 04:14 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

wynwood1 - good deer down there. let me know if you ever want to lease the hunting.

wynwood1
(.224 member)
24/05/05 04:21 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

we do kill some nice bucks in that area. I only have 3 sections with some ewes on it an a rancher whom tends things for me also fills the feeders. Turkeys up the "wazu" though!

500grains
(.416 member)
25/05/05 01:40 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

Originally posted by wynwood (on another forum):

was directed here from another site, decided to register.
mainly a bow hunter myself but have been to Namibia on a plains game rifle safari now goingback with my bow in '06 have deposits paid and trying to run pages off the calendar ....of course at my age I hope the pages don't speed by too quickly.
Wynwood, A.K.A. Terry




Doesn't sound like 19 buffalo, including shooting them with a 45-70 during WWII (which would make you 80 years old or more). But what do I know.




Mpofu
(.300 member)
25/05/05 05:53 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

500 grains, why don't you grow up and stop trying to needle people. Sounds like the only thing you have in common with 'big bores' is your personality.
M


Mpofu
(.300 member)
25/05/05 06:00 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

500 grains, I assume you have a problem assimilating the written word.
Go back to my post, I did not say anything about wanting to hunt in Africa with a muzzleloader.Looks like you like putting a spin on things to provoke a confrontation.
M


wynwood1
(.224 member)
25/05/05 08:11 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

MPOFU: you said it well, it took me a bit to catch onto 500's actions. But thanks to a few posters whom sent me PMs I now see them for what they are, childish drivel.

new_guy
(Sponsor)
26/05/05 12:27 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

500 grains, why don't you grow up and stop trying to needle people. Sounds like the only thing you have in common with 'big bores' is your personality.
M




500 is a professional troll hunter. He thinks he's got one spotted, and he's trying to get the wind right.


wynwood1
(.224 member)
26/05/05 12:55 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

he also has several different names he posts under on several different forums.I doubt he's ever set foot anywhere in Africa, at least that's what several PMs have told me.
I do not care if he did or ever does it is the internet and anyone whom takes anything to heart is foolish to do so. Wyn


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/05/05 03:28 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

I suggest we cool it on this thread.

Actually as we have two members both claiming the other is full of it, has not hunted in Africa, a simple test.

Both 500grains and Wynwood post some African hunting photos of their hunts with their trophies. 500grains can post a photo of him with his Searcy 500 NE and an elephant or a buff, and Wynwood a photo of him with his bow and "Old George" (presumably that's also a cape buffalo).

A simple test to determine whom has creditibility and which does not.

Gentlemen, line up at ten paces and .......




wynwood1
(.224 member)
26/05/05 03:32 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

changed my mind

500grains
(.416 member)
26/05/05 03:43 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?



I'm the wimpy looking guy on the left.

Here's a couple of elephants.







NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/05/05 03:56 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

Nitro, tell you what I'll do, just quit posting altogether. take my name off the list you sell to Spam mailers please! thank you Wyn





And all is of course revealed. As if there was ever any doubt. Asked finally to put up and no deal.

As for leaving, no loss. We can get back to constructive discussions.


***


BTW does anyone know where this school is:

"Northampton Area School District" ?

Is it in Alaska? Oops it is in Pennsylvania.


***


Enough of this shit. Bye Bye. Rule .303 applied.




wynwood1
(.224 member)
26/05/05 03:57 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

maybe that's why I've never had luck hunting elephants...I was looking to high!

new_guy
(Sponsor)
26/05/05 06:01 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?



looks like you got a troll in that photo


Plains99
(.300 member)
26/05/05 07:11 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Lord that looks like a big baboon! What did he weigh?

400NitroExpress
(.400 member)
26/05/05 07:27 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

500:

Well done!
--------------------------------------


EricD
(.416 member)
26/05/05 08:17 AM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

In reply to:

looks like you got a troll in that photo




Specifically, it looks like he's got Wynwood1 in that photo!

Having seen trophy pictures of 500grains with numerous animals, including elephant, there is no doubt who is "troll", and who is "troll hunter" in this matter.

Don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out Wynwood1...


rgp
(.333 member)
26/05/05 12:34 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

500grains,

Nice photos, and good inspiration for those of us who have only had our sights on an elephant that was in the parking lot across the street from the gun shop while a carnival was setting up for business.

Richard.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
26/05/05 01:29 PM
Re: Will the PH save your life?

Dan

Thanks for posting your photographs. Of course I had no doubt whatsoever about your past hunting experiences.

Also Dan and I have exchanged gifts in the post. He won a small competition on NE.com and I sent him some magazines. He kindly reciprocated and sent me a couple US ones we don't have over here. So I know he is a real person and probably most ( ) of what he says is on the level.

But it was too good an opportunity to try to put this matter to rest. Also I really dislike long term members of these forums being badgered, accused of all sorts of things, called liars etc.

Hopefully our 'friend' "Wynwood1" will take his own comment about leaving to heart as seriously there are hundreds of other forums where he would be welcome. Actually he requested to be removed so it was voluntary, but in any case a breach of the members code of conduct occurred (actually quite a few such as using fictious email addresses for the application).

I would like to ask NE.com members to leave it rest there. As the ex-member has no right of reply, it is better the matter finishes here.


***

On the plus side we get to enjoy Dan's elephant photos again. And with your plans for 2005 (lucky bugger) hopefully we will see a six-pack more at the end of the year! I think you are really planning to give your Searcy .500 a work out.

So doubly thanks.



Dan,

a very convenient tree, I think.



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