NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
27/05/14 11:13 PM
Open sight rifle shooting distances?

The NE forums are probably a good place to ask this. We have a lot of members shooting, often classic, open sighted rifles, for hunting.

What sort of distances do you shoot your open sighted rifles at, at game? What sort of circumstances, ie tell us a little about it?

I include V sights and also peep sights here. Tell us which one you are using too please.

I enjoy using my V sights but most usually as most people do, use a scope nowadays. I grew up first starting rifle shooting with an old, self refurbished Lithgow single shot .22 rimfire, with its crude rear sight. Was quite good with it too. Then when I upgraded to a .222 Rem with a scope and a .22 RF Anshutz with a scope, lost a lot of ability with open sights. I think one is more careful and takes slower better shots with the open sights. But I could head shoot rabbits with it to maybe a hundred yards (.22 RF) but usually much much closer. Was a better stalker then too for that reason. Usually I would only take closer shots with open sights.

Would be great to hear of others experiences and what is considered reasonable and sensible from others from their own experiences. Thanks.


Al333
(.333 member)
27/05/14 11:57 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I shoot a lot with open sighted guns. (mostly lever guns). Most of them I would feel comfortable shooting 100 yds. offhand. If I could get a good rest I would push that to 150 yds. I carry a range finder with me when I hunt. Believe it or not my most accurate rifle is a Shilo 50-70 carbine with 70 grs. ffg compressed with a 450 gr bullet. This is hunting rifles I am mentioning, I do have more accurate target firearms. At this time I only own 1 scoped rifle. Also my 75 year old eyes are not as good as they were 40 years ago. Find this a very interesting thread, looking forward to some of the reply's. Al

Deutsche_Vortrekker
(.333 member)
28/05/14 01:34 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I think on big game the maximum distance to use iron sights is the distance under field conditions (NOT from a bench rest !) is that a hunter can hit a 9" kill zone consistently from standing or sitting ;the positions used most in the field. In the Marine Corps we qualify every year with a service rifle out to 500 yards . Most Marines can hit a man at 500 almost every time with a service rifle with issued iron sights . That being said a target is not a big game animal and one wants to kill cleanly ;out of respect for the animal so shooting at an animal at that distance by anyone is not ethical. A hunter should practice position shooting at various ranges with iron sights ,apply the 9" group kill zone rule and then determine what his range limitations are.

DarylS
(.700 member)
28/05/14 01:52 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

The 9" analogy is a good one - pie plates used for testing this also work as they can be painted to be visible ---- something animal's colouration lacks.

In my own testing, I've proven I'm OK with my open sighted rifles, to 200yards - including the 9.3x57 (moose in 2009 exactly 200yards - impact right on the bead=perfect), .45/60 Sharps w/405RP's or 500gr. RN cast and my .69 smoke-pole with 480gr. RBs. All the rest have scopes. That 200ard moose shot was the second longest shot ever taken by me with any rifle on big game, scope or otherwise. Most are inside 100yards - scope or open sights, and many inside 60 yards.

Much depends on where you hunt.


Sville
(.400 member)
28/05/14 02:51 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I have never shot on an animal with open sights, I have tried a few times on targets and find it rather difficult. I will follow this with interest.

Ripp
(.577 member)
28/05/14 04:53 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

As I kid growing up in the plains, all we ever had was open sighted .22 rimfires or pellet guns untili we got old enough to make some money and get a rifle of our own..my first was my uncles .303 British..which I used for a half dozen years or more soley for hunting whitetail deer in ND..

Its funny on how now days, I shoot my scoped guns off a bench to make sure they are grouping properly and the loads are chronographed ..back then, shot whatever ammo was available..would shoot at a target at 100 yards to make sure it was close and called it good. It worked and worked well..shooting whitetail with it either still hunting or on drives..seems life was so much simpler then.

Personally I feel shooting open sights is VERY different from person to person..while many claims they can shoot and hit consistently at various distances..have not seen many that can do it...think the old saying "don't tell me, show me" applies here. But it certainly seems to make a difference shooting them as you are growing up and using them alot versus starting out later in life. I still use my fathers .22 Winchester open sighted from time to time as well as my Marlin 22 lever action..they are both still very accurate if I do my part.

Ripp


Rell
(.375 member)
28/05/14 08:59 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

With factory open sight on a lever action Winchester I'm limited to 75m. The same gun with a tang sight I am good to 225m. That is with very good light. What does not come across is how hard it is to shoot open sights well in low light or super bright light. The last 20 minutes of shooting light I'm only really good for 100m not 225 with the peep sight.

Express sights on my doubles are 75m in perfect light and down to 50m at the witching hour.


Marrakai
(.416 member)
28/05/14 09:13 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Regularly shoot boar-size game out to 70 or 80 metres with express-sighted rifles, and have made shots to ~180m or so by flipping up the 200yd leaf. One on a fast-walking pig at almost 200 with my .400 Jeffery was caught on video.
However: it depends a great deal on the sights!
I have shouldered a number of express-sighted doubles belonging to other people that I wouldn't have taken into the hunting field without serious modification if they were mine!
A correctly-sized gold bead, fairly fine, over a wide vee rear with gold or platinum centre-line or triangle should be good to well over 100 metres, up to 200 metres with a rest of some kind.
Some "traditional" sights such as the barleycorn/buckhorn are a serious handicap with my eyes and I have trouble understanding how they were ever used successfully in the field, particularly when the quarry is on the move.


VonGruff
(.400 member)
28/05/14 11:35 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

My aperture sighted 7x57 has kills to nearly 200 yds (on goat) but that was rested but would be comfortable offhand to 100-150yds as I would with my other open sighted rifles in 303 (Martini Enfield) and 577-450 (Martini Henry).

chuck375
(.333 member)
28/05/14 01:00 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

My oldest son has always shot our Marlin 30-30 with open sights offhand into 3" groups at 100 yards. It still never ceases to amaze me. I can do the same at 50 yards only. It's nice when your sons can outdo you, as long as it doesn't come too early

gatsby
(.375 member)
28/05/14 03:36 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Open sites to 200yds with a rifle shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Shots 100 and 150 when hunting with an open sited handgun aren't that uncommon.

Sville
(.400 member)
28/05/14 04:37 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I think that's impressive!

Deutsche_Vortrekker
(.333 member)
28/05/14 11:19 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Interestingly ,the late Jeff Cooper of Gunsite and IPSC fame had a test for new students to Jeffs basic rifle school course at Gunsite. Before the course began a student was asked on demand to take their rifle and from an unsupported prone position ,put 4 of 5 shots into a 9" circle (head shot ) at 300 yards .No sighting in shots . Most students had scopes on their rifles.In all his years as owner/instructor at Gunsite not one person could do it except a handful of US Marines that obviously are trained in rifle marksmanship to a high degree. Jeff stated the amazing thing was almost all of the students THOUGHT they could do it. Jeff stated that this test was a facsimile of what the average Boer rifleman could do with his 7mm Mauser with iron sights). At Spion Kop, Boer rifleman decimated the British with mostly head shots from long range. Daniel Morgan's rifleman during the Revolution had to pass a test which they had to put 3 shots consecutively into a 2"x 6" vertical post at 200 yards standing with a Pennsylvania long rifle. Their best shooter Tim Murphy would do this easily at even longer distance . Cooper says the reason for such poor marksmanship today is the use of the bench rest. People are obsessed with shooting tiny groups off double bags and have totally lost (or never found) their rifle skills. When I go to the range I never see people shooting from positions and only from the bench. Cooper was right.

Lutz
(.224 member)
28/05/14 11:45 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

In Germany it is absolutely common to use scopes or redpoints.
Some people use open sights when hunting (driven) on very short distances or searching wounded game. On my Mauser I have a special open sight for fast shooting on fast game (wild boar), but only as 'backup'. Normaly I use a scope like 1,5-6 also on driven hunts.
In my opinion shooting with an open sight is a backup, nice sports or absolutely reqierd for military. Why should I forgo(?) an advantage with a scope?

@Deutsche Vortrekker:
I think that are two things you are talking about. Shooting with open sight and shooting without a bench.
Of course it is always good to be familiar with the basics...like shooting without scope or bench.


Duett
(.224 member)
29/05/14 12:17 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I thought some of you would be interested about the following discussion on another site about hunting with iron sights. Very interesting topic indeed!

http://www.shootersforum.com/open-sight/80076-hunting-iron-sights.html


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
29/05/14 03:44 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

My principal open sighted shooting since the earlier days has been with my .450 double rifle at closer ranges, 80 yards or less usually on a variety of game from pigs to elephant. Elephant is one game animal where possible open sights are still used more than scopes.

Even though I very rarely attend, the BGRC shoots are good practice for open sighted shooting. Scopes are penalised. No silly benches either. But at the Nationals last year I learned it can be very hard when your front sight falls off half way through one of the shoots ....


Deutsche_Vortrekker
(.333 member)
29/05/14 04:52 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

NitroX and others who hunt dangerous game on a consistent basis must know how to use iron sights effectively ;their life depends on it . A scope in close quarters can get you very dead. As one PH told me once " A charging Cape buffalo does NOT need any magnification"

zimhunter
(.333 member)
29/05/14 11:07 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Only thing I have shot with open sights in many many years have been a couple of Elephant at VERY close range and one of those I shot high and missed a brain shot. I have worn glasses since about 5 years old and even with them in these late years I don't see too well. And wearing trifocals I have a very difficult time with Irons getting everything in reasonable focus. I do like the red dots though and they are remarkably good. Would they really be considered 'open sights'?

VonGruff
(.400 member)
29/05/14 11:33 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Quote:

I thought some of you would be interested about the following discussion on another site about hunting with iron sights. Very interesting topic indeed!

http://www.shootersforum.com/open-sight/80076-hunting-iron-sights.html




Some very good points there and welcome to NE.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
29/05/14 02:13 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Quote:

Only thing I have shot with open sights in many many years have been a couple of Elephant at VERY close range and one of those I shot high and missed a brain shot. I have worn glasses since about 5 years old and even with them in these late years I don't see too well. And wearing trifocals I have a very difficult time with Irons getting everything in reasonable focus. I do like the red dots though and they are remarkably good. Would they really be considered 'open sights'?




No red dots are not considered open sights however ....

I believe in BGRC rules they are or are not mentioned.

I think they are an excellent alternative to open sights to those with some type of sight loss.

What type of sight loss do you have?

BTW can type do you use? Is the dot "fuzzy" or "stary" for you? Mine is slightly starred, but was not when I first bought them. I didn't believe it wasn't a circle until I took a photo of them and it is a circle in the photo.

My problem which only occurred after being ill, is I now need reading glasses sometimes, low light, very small print. I still do very well reading the eye chart lines at the doctor's but can't read the smallest line anymore consistently or like I used to be able to read the "printed at XXXX" line below the actual test lines.

I was told by BwanaBob on NE (an employee of Trijicon) that the triangle dot sight works better for some with seeing difficulties. I wanted to swap mine, but got a negative to this. Have to see if I can get a loaner to see if it is true.

Red dot sights are offered by Heym now as a standard if the customer asks for them.


xausa
(.400 member)
29/05/14 02:29 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I shot high power rifles competitively from the early 1960's until about eight years ago, when I developed osteo-arthritis and could no longer assume the positions required. Since then, I have developed a problem with my right eye which precludes aiming with it.

In competition, which involved shooting at ranges from 200 to 600 yards and beyond, only iron sights were allowed. This could be the issue sights on military rifles or commercial receiver sights. At 200 yards, the black portion of the target was a circle 13" in diameter, which contained a 3" "X ring", used to break ties, a 7" "10 ring" and a 3" wide "9 ring".

At 300 yards the scoring rings were the same size, but the black portion of the target was extended to include a 3" wide "8 ring", for a total black diameter of 19".

At 600 yards, the black portion of the target is 36" in diameter, and includes a 6" "X ring", a 12" "10 ring", an 18" "9 ring", a 24" "8 ring" and a 36" "7 ring".

From these numbers it can be seen that in the steady positions (rapid fire and slow fire prone) the "X" ring represents one minute of angle and the "10" ring roughly two minutes of angle.

The normal course of fire is 20 shots slow fire standing at 200 yards, with a time limit of 20 minutes, and 20 shots rapid fire, standing to sitting in two ten shot strings, with a time limit of 60 seconds each, including a required reload. When you figure approximately 12 seconds to assume the position and five seconds to reload and resume the position, that leaves about 43 seconds to fire ten shots, or a little over four seconds per shot.

At 300 yards, the match consists of 20 shots rapid fire, standing to prone, in two ten shot strings, with a time limit of 70 seconds each, including a required reload. Again, subtracting the time required to get into position and to reload, there are approximately 53 seconds left, or a little over 5 seconds per shot.

At 600 yards, the match consists of 20 shots slow fire prone with a time limit of 20 minutes.

In my younger days, standing scores in the low 190's were not unusual, nor were sitting scores in the high 190's. Prone rapid fire and slow fire resulted in scores in the low 190's, although on more than one occasion I managed to shoot perfect scores of 200 at 600 yards. I averaged around 97 points out of 100 throughout the matches, a respectable, but by no means outstanding score.

In Africa, my heavy rifle, a .505 of my own design, was equipped with iron sights only, and I never felt handicapped by having to rely on my trusted Lyman 48 receiver sight.

However, even with a scope I never attempted shots beyond 300 yards, for the simple reason that a bullet takes a perceptible amount of time to travel 300 yards and beyond, and that means that there is always time for the target animal to move while the bullet is in the air, resulting in a gut shot, rather than one in the heart/lungs area. This happened to me once, shooting at an oryx at around 300 yards, and we had to track the wounded animal for miles before we recovered him.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
29/05/14 03:35 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

A couple of illustrations:





HendrikNZ
(.275 member)
29/05/14 04:05 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knNK8Rljhzg

The 1st bit shows the Ar10, but the rest of the vid is all open sights!
The gong is 12" x 12".

I'm still working on getting a LeftRight double using the 470, so far its proven elusive!


xausa
(.400 member)
30/05/14 12:51 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

The illustration of an aperture rear and post front sight shows the "pumpkin on a fence post" sight picture, which is by no means universal. Many pistol shooters and a number of rifle shooters use the "point of aim" or "Navy" hold, by which is meant that the top of the post is held in the center of the bullseye, so that no sight adjustment is made to allow for the size of the aiming point. The "Navy" hold requires the shooter to concentrate his focus on the front sight, which looks blacker than the target itself, always an important element of successful metallic sights aiming.

With a hunting rifle, shooting to the point of aim is of course essential.


DarylS
(.700 member)
30/05/14 08:30 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

When shooting hunting rifles with post or beads and open or peep sights, all of my rifles are sighted thit dead centre on the top of the post, or dead centre middle of the bead. There is no 6 o'clock on an amimal. I want to know exactly where my bullet or ball is landing, not some 3, 6 or 10" above the post or bead dependent on the diameter of the bull I sighted in with as the illustrations would have happen. These would be launching my bullet upwards at horrid elevation to cause misses at intermediate ranges.

If I sighted 6 o'clock on an 8" bull at 75yards with my post, thus placing the bullet 4" (plus a bit to see light under the bull to know I had a 6 o'clock hold, WHERE will that bullet hit in relation to the bead or post at 200yards) 1 foot, 1 1/2 feet or maybe 3 feet high - dead on -depending on what calibre?

Thus, I disagree with the open sight illustration. Sighting in so the bullet hits middle of the top surface of the post or centre of the bead - always have an definite impact "in relation to your aim", not hitting at some unknown location above the sight.


Claydog
(.375 member)
30/05/14 08:42 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Daryl
200% in agreement.


tinker
(.416 member)
30/05/14 10:19 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Here we practice with the pistols to (at) 100yds.
Rifle practice with iron sights to 300yds.

Scoped pistol out to and past 300 yds, scoped rifles (with hunting emphasis) to and past 500yds - practical practice to and past 1000yds.

It's pretty big open country here. 100 yards is for all purposes very close, with little to no hunting opportunities inside 200 yards.


Claydog
(.375 member)
30/05/14 10:42 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I usually use my express sighted rifles when hunting because I enjoy hunting this way. I think can use them fairly well and agree there are many other factors besides distance that come into it. Light and the cover the animal is in can make a difference. When you look along the sites you know whether you should take the shot or not. Sometimes you either have to try and get closer or pass up. For me thats what hunting is all about.

Cazadero
(.375 member)
30/05/14 11:25 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I learned to shoot as a kid with a scope. That was what you did. You could shoot with open sites but obviously your accuracy was greatly improved with a scope.

Time goes on. Graduate College. Earn more money. Buy nicer things, including accessories for hunting like scopes.

But when I first went to Africa in 2006 and I stood next to a herd of buffalo as the sun was going down I realized (partly) what I had been missing.

When I got back to Texas I found myself hunting that fall with my model 94 with a ghost ring. I got within 20 yards of a wild hog before he ran off.

We took it further when I went back for Buffalo in 2008 and from then on I vowed no more herds, we only hunted dugga boys, but the point remains the same, IMHO, if you really want to experience hunting, then you've got to work to get close.

I succumbed to the reading glasses at around 46. At 48 (this year) I bought a pair of Costas [sun glasses] with readers built in because I can't see anything up close anymore, (like my phone) but at a distance fortunately, I'm fine.

As long as I can, I'll hunt with open sites. When I can't do that, I'll stop.

Till then, the see-through site on my double remains my favorite. I like the ghost ring too, but I'm having a custom see-through "V" made for my Ruger No. 1.

To each his own.

Good Hunting all.



bonanza
(.400 member)
30/05/14 11:41 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

With my 2006 vintage Merkel .375 H&H double rifle I could shoot a skeet clay with both bbls at 100 yards off hand. I can't do that with any other rifle.

My only guess is the heavy bbls damped out the shake.


Claydog
(.375 member)
30/05/14 11:53 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Cazadero
You are a true poet.


Chasseur
(.375 member)
30/05/14 02:00 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Similar to most people I grew up shooting with a scope, except for a Savage O/U combo gun I had with terrible buckhorn sights.

Last year when I finally got my express rifle, I thought, "Well damn it, I've got to learn how to get good with irons if I want to use this gun." So I pulled the scope off my 22 mag that is my practice/plinking gun and dedicated time to learning to use irons. I found that if you practice a good deal with a 22 (or whatever your small bore plinker is), you can quickly get good with a big bore with open sights. I'm good out to 100-40 yards with my 500bpe. Unfortunately my range has now stopped shooting beyond 100 yards so I've not been able to practice beyond that point.

I shot this chital doe last year at 140 or so. Going to try for stags this year.



NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
30/05/14 02:11 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Quote:

With a hunting rifle, shooting to the point of aim is of course essential.




True.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
30/05/14 02:14 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Hi People,

Great idea of Chasseur's, please also post photos of iron or open sight hunting and photos of different sorts of sights. Thanks.


Claydog
(.375 member)
30/05/14 02:30 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?


The most ambitious open sights I have, on a 303 Lee Speed





Nick_Adams
(.300 member)
30/05/14 11:20 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Growing up, I started out with a .22 single shot that had an aperture, but also shot some of the old Remington "Teeners" (510s, 514s) with the buckhorn rear sight.

I still have a couple of centerfire hunting rifles that wear irons only, like my Granddad's 30-40 Krag.

It's got Lyman matching front & rear sights, and will never wear a scope.





Except for load development with a low-powered scope, I prefer shooting my .404Jeff with its express sights. The standing leaf on the rear sight has a bright-white vertical line that contrasts very sharply with a red fiber optic front bead - like "doting an 'i'".

Lasik surgery in 2006 more or less gave me back the eyesight I had in my 20s in college. No more trying to see game thru sweated-up coke-bottles when hunting - whether with irons or a scope.

The 404's express sights are zero-ed to POA at 50yds and are "on" at 100yds, which is about the farthest I'd want to shoot it. It's not intended for quick shots on running coyotes.



xausa
(.400 member)
31/05/14 12:12 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

You can just barely see my Lyman 48 next to the bolt handle on my .505. Kenya, 1971.


Chasseur
(.375 member)
03/07/14 04:02 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I thought this would be an excellent thread to post some scans from some old 19th century shooting and hunting books I have that discuss express sights and how to use them.

August Grimble's "Deer-Stalking" (1886), single best 19th century how to book on deer stalking. If you really want to see how 19th century hunters used their express/BPE rifles this is a great book. I know Africa gets all the attention, but the bulk of those 450 and 500 bpe double rifles were for stalking red stag in Scotland (and Indian game), not antelope in Africa.



I'll note my own Alex Henry rifle (1871) shoots just like the way he shows with the "Thick Sight".



From the living legend of 19th century shooting authors, Walsh "Stonehenge" and his classic tome, "Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle", (1882) a necessity in the library of double shooters in my view (better than Greener's book).





From the Philipps-Wolley's Badminton Library series on various sporting activities, from their volume on "Big Game Shooting II" (1894). This is from the chapter by H.W.H on "Notes on Rifles and Ammunition. Note, the Badminton library books are a wonderful intro to late 19th century British sporting activities.





Ripp
(.577 member)
03/07/14 06:04 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Quote:


The most ambitious open sights I have, on a 303 Lee Speed








I have a very similar sighting system on my .303..was the first center fire I owned..still have it to this day ..was quite accurate for what it was..literally shot dozens of whitetail through the years with it growing up...

Have also used scopes on all my dangerous games hunts..turned all the way down in the bush to 1.5 is not hard to aim with even at close distances..shot my last elephant at 16 yards..no problem. Have had several PH's tell me under most situations, would rather have clients use scopes versus not..1. most shoot better with a scope..2. most see better with a scope if you are trying to snake a shot into the kill zone without hitting a obstacle you might not see otherwise.

Have to say however, would love to use the open sighted double .470 for the buff/ele hunt I am planning...think that along with a scoped 375 H&H would be an ideal combo in a DG area..

Ripp


DarylS
(.700 member)
03/07/14 01:35 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?



100, 150 and 200yards.



This is why a brass bead, slanted at 45 degrees to catch any light.



Copy of an 1850 S. Hawken rear sight & the blade front sight to go with it.




Sharps Carbine, 1868 in .50/70


A master with a brand new, unfinished iron sighted rifle, shooting the Wyoming Plank shoot. Since building that rifle, I don't think Dan has let anyone else win. The open iron sights have the allowed "shaders" to increase the contrast, eliminating sun's glare on the steel.


Here's an old "Wood Cut" of the same type of match, just in case you were wondering about the authenticity of a Plank Shoot.



gatsby
(.375 member)
03/07/14 03:01 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Quote:



100, 150 and 200yards.



This is why a brass bead, slanted at 45 degrees to catch any light.



Copy of an 1850 S. Hawken rear sight & the blade front sight to go with it.




Sharps Carbine, 1868 in .50/70


A master with a brand new, unfinished iron sighted rifle, shooting the Wyoming Plank shoot. Since building that rifle, I don't think Dan has let anyone else win. The open iron sights have the allowed "shaders" to increase the contrast, eliminating sun's glare on the steel.


Here's an old "Wood Cut" of the same type of match, just in case you were wondering about the authenticity of a Plank Shoot.







Winner takes all.



Ripp
(.577 member)
03/07/14 10:11 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Thanks for that Daryl,

Good to see..

Ripp


hunter_angler
(.300 member)
04/07/14 12:36 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

A lot of great input here. I think Daryl's simple point "a lot depends on where you hunt" is important. To that I would add a lot depends on how you hunt, and when.

A lot of this discussion necessarily centers around marksmanship rather than hunting. However, the older I get (and maybe the worse my vision gets LOL) the more up close and personal I like encounters with game to be. I realize this is very difficult when working on open plains. I generally hunt in deep woods so it's feasible (and more necessary). Successfully positioning myself close to animals in their natural environment is the challenge and goal. I have always respected bow hunters for their ability to do this, although I don't feel arrows are always the most humane killers. To me shooting an animal at 300 yards that has little chance of being aware of my presence just isn't the experience I want to have (although I fully respect that for others it may be). I think a lot of the dangerous game hunters on this board similarly pass on the chance to target from long range to get the challenge and thrill of stalking in as close as possible.

I hunt only with iron sights (usually a peep) on leverguns, single shots and muzzleloaders. Most of my shots are inside of 75 yards (a lot inside of 50). A shot over 100 yards in the timber I am unlikely to get, and over 150 across a field I would be hesitant to take offhand. Light conditions are another factor. Deer in particular are likely to be spotted around dawn or dusk, which can make a longer shot more iffy even in the open or if you are in a stand or blind in the trees where you really know your shooting lanes. I have actually considered going to a scope for just this reason, in the context of achieving a one shot humane kill. Weather (rain, snow, wind) is also a factor, even when in open country. And, of course even in wilderness I like to be aware of what is behind and beyond my target. When in doubt I pass on the shot.

I guess the bottom line for me is I seldom need or want to worry about longer ranges, but the terrain, the conditions, and your goals are all important factors, along with your marksmanship.


Schauckis
(.300 member)
08/07/14 11:12 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

John's "C" type comes closest to the old Winchester 1895s I've hunted with.
I've taken moose up to approx. 70 metres, the biggest one I shot I measured to be @ 50 metres.
Typically, Finnish moose hunting is close quarters job so a scope can be a hindrance due to the limited field of view. In the thick woods the open sight is useful, indeed.

I can hit a 3" bull @ 150 metres on bench rest with my new Winchester. It has Recknagel sights whereby the V is ve-e-e-ry wide, it has a small dot at the bottom and the front sight is a small bead. Very accurate on the range but on game I always used the red dot sight, however.

If the game is moose size I'm easily comfortable up to 100 metres, maybe 150 (depending on whether I have support!).

As Marrakai said, it also depends a great deal on the type of the sight. Older rifles tend to have better open sights, as they were the norm and thus they had to be good. Today, they tend to be auxiliaries or meant for short distance driven hunt ("Battue" type sights).
I'd say that if the game is smaller than moose, the max is about 100 metres and for moose or bigger, up to 150 metres.
If the light is good and the user is familiar with the sights, then this can be upped.

I noticed that the red dot sight covers too much of a typical safari animal at 100 metres to be useful. It's close-quarters fast shooting sight for sure; despite being quite accurate in bench rest shooting.
This also applies to the open sights: if the front sight is a big bead or a wide post, it covers too much of the animal to be accurate. Smaller sights suit long distances and smaller game better.

- Lars/Finland


Nick_Adams
(.300 member)
09/07/14 05:44 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Thank you, Gatsby. Awesome post & photos.

Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
09/07/14 06:51 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Hi Schauckis, I use an Aimpoint Hunter 30L for a lot of my hunting and find the red dot sight extremely good. It is supposed to be 2 MOA with a normal light setting, however if you turn the light intensity down, the MOA reduces and longer shots can easily be taken.

Waidmannsheil.


BWK375
(.224 member)
18/07/14 07:19 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Since acquiring a 1903a3 I've come to like peep sights. I had a Winchester 444 lever gun with a 18" barrel that I installed XS ghost ring sights on and zeroed at 50 yards. Was quick to line up on whitetail and pigs. I would try to limit myself to 80-100 yards. Unfortunately that gun got stolen. Recently I picked up a NECG peep sight for a Ruger #1 but haven't had time to try it out.

CarlsenHighway
(.300 member)
23/07/14 01:18 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I hunt mostly red deer or fallow. It is often in thick bush. Sometimes in the open grassland type country. In the open country, then with open sights (or peep sights) its really not a big deal. 200 metres is as far as I have shot animals. I have not found these shots to be difficult at all. Have not needed to shoot further so far, but could probably go 250 metres, if I have a clear target, depends on the circumstances.

In the bush, at shorter ranges its actually a different story. The action is quicker, only a couple of steps and the deer is out of sight, and often the animals is half obscured by a bush, leaves, or a limb of a tree.
I used to use peep sighted rifles all the time, I have now gone to v rear sights with a bead foresight. I find it just as accurate. I have found that odd or inexplicable misses have dried up. Under pressure sometimes I am sure I was not centreing the bead properly. Despite what people say about it being automatic. But with a ghost ring, under pressure, I think I was actually ignoring the rear aperture completely sometimes, and probably unintended 'point' shooting. I think peep sights are good target sights. I am less convinced nowadays that they are the best iron rear sight for hunting.
I think there is a lot of rubbish talked about open and peep sights shooting.

One is about speed. The open sights or peep sight is much quicker than a scope. I know, I know, people are going to disagree with me and point to different tests done by various gun writers about how scopes are faster because of using the one focal plane and so forth....but they are wrong and I will tell you why.
If you put a scoped shooter up against an open sight shooter at a target. They will be the same, or the scoped shooter might well be a little bit quicker. This is target shooting where both shooters already know where the target is. It doesn't mean much. IF you have to aquire a new target each time - or if a single target is unexpected - the open sights guy will beat him.
Put them in a cluttered enviroment, with unexpected targets - never the same one over - at different ranges, and the open sights shooter will win every time, because if the shooter has to aquire a new target every time, the scope shooter will take more time finding each target in his tube. This is more like hunting, particularly hunting in bush, or 'thick or dark timber' as they say in the US.

I learned this shooting deer in thick bush at short ranges with scoped bolt actions, and with open sighted Winchester .30/30's.

The advantage of the scope, is precision in shot placement, because of the magnification of the target. This is offset though, particularly with offhand shooting, because of the wobbling of the sight, which causes shooters to snatch at the trigger. This is a distict definate thing, with open sights I am convinced people make a smoother trigger pull. Once again this relates to offhand shooting, which is my main stock in trade in bush hunting.
A real advantage of the scope is the ability to see 'through' the bush because of the single focal plane. This is important, a significant advantage.

Shoot through the bead. The point of impact should be in the centre of the bead. A six o'clock hold is for target shooting. When I sight rifles in I use a six o'clock hold - but I adjust the POI for the centre of the bead. Then when shooting on game it is instinctive to used the centre of the bead when under pressure, or I do, at least. Use a bead like a red dot sight. You shoot with both eyes open.


Springfield 1903 with wide open rear 'express 'sight and front bead - supposedly the most inaccurate type of open sight there is, or so we are told over and over again.
The three shots at right were at 50 metres, half an inch. The three shots at left were shot immediately after at 100 metres. Slightly over an inch. (White bull on black background is best for white or silver bead front sights. MAkes a big difference if your bead isn't bleeding into the white of the target paper...)



Fallow deer, open rear notch sight and front bead (Brno 600 in .270) 90 metre shot offhand.


Red stag, open buckhorn rear sight and front bead. (Winchester 94 .30/30) 85 metres shot offhand

You need to do a lot of dry firing and get used to the notion. It takes imagination to shoot well with open sights if you grew up with a scope. Dry firing a lot helps, I am convinced.

I prefer smaller beads - like those on the Brno 600 - 601 rifles, or about what the old Winchester .30/30 would have. I file them backwards on a 45 degree angle so they catch light from above.
Large beads such as a those put on some modern rifles apparently so they are better in low light - are useless. Dayglow, or firesights or coloured plastic beads are abominations.

I use iron sights a lot because they work for what I do, because the rifles are lighter and easier to carry and I have to travel long distances in rough country, and because I enjoy it, and because I know I am not really giving up much.
But if I was mostly shooting my deer in twilight from a stand, then I would have only scopes on my rifles.


DarylS
(.700 member)
23/07/14 02:18 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

CarlsenHighway - good post.

gwh
(.333 member)
23/07/14 10:12 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Have owned and used plenty of rifles with open sights both through work and for hunting. Currently on my 470NE I'll happily take a shot on pig sized game out to around 80m with express sights. My longest shot with this outfit so far is around 100m. I also subscribe to the 9 inch kill zone accuracy theory and use cardboard box plates as my practice targets. I have recently acquired a 404 Jeffrey with open sights and will be carrying that on a fairly frequent basis chasing game. I've got plenty of scoped rifles but the challenge/ fun factor isn't there when walking them up on foot.

bouldersmith
(.375 member)
24/07/14 10:11 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

My H&H falling block in .30 super is my go to rifle. I have shot many deer at between 80 and 125 yds with it and this one was taken at 200 yds from the kneeling position when he hesitated for just a second. The front bead is extremely fine and the rifle is very accurate. Given a proper rest I would not hesitate to take a slightly longer shot, say out to 250 or a bit more if everything was perfect.



Claydog
(.375 member)
24/07/14 04:48 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Bouldersmith
Must be hard to have to live with a rifle like that.


Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
24/07/14 09:18 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

How about some pictures of that rifle.

Waidmannsheil.


NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
24/07/14 10:49 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I must spank myself. I thought bouldersmith said it was a Ruger, and when re-read it was a Falling block H&H!

Yes photos required, please.


bouldersmith
(.375 member)
24/07/14 11:36 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?









Sorry I do not have any good photos of the front sight. The last deer pictured was a great hunt. Hundreds of yards of belly crawling through more or less zero cover. Shot him in his bed from behind breaking his spine at about 125 yds. It was the only shot I had and the rifle performed flawlessly. She is a bit of a burden to own but I guess it is my cross to bear


DarylS
(.700 member)
24/07/14 11:51 PM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Nice & nasty crosses some must bear - LOL

Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
25/07/14 06:50 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

I feel your pain, it must be terrible. I am happy to help bear the burden if it becomes to much for you. Beautiful rifle by the way.


Waidmannsheil.


gwh
(.333 member)
25/07/14 09:18 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Horrible looking piece of kit! Life is certainly too short to hunt with ugly rifles!!

gryphon
(.450 member)
25/07/14 10:04 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Rabbits are no big deal to shoot or at least they werent when I was a kid as they were in their millions way back then.
I shot my first several thousand rabbits all with a Lithgow single shot .22 rifle with of course open sights.
Once one gets the hang of it it wasnt any big deal to head shoot rabbits out to 50 yards and even stretching the barrel for a lot longer shots when all the stars were aligned.I gat my arse kicked by the old man if I didnt head shoot them,it worked and laid the foundation for bigger and better things to come,although I used a scope on a Fallow buck yesterday...


DarylS
(.700 member)
26/07/14 05:44 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Grew up with an "Ace" .22 my uncle gave me when I was 12yrs. old. I hunted with it on the sly until I was able to test and get a hunting license at age 15.

We found out we had to shoot ground hogs in the head or middle chest to kill them RIGHT there and the irons were all we had. We simply made 100yards, the limit and stocked and shot when they were out of range. Amazing what practice can do for your accuracy, even with the lousy sights on that little rifle.


ozhunter
(.400 member)
26/07/14 09:53 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Quite happy to shoot off hand at around 60m and with a rest around 100 meters is not that difficult with good lighting.
Took this Stag at over 100 meters with two quick shots with both landing together.


DarylS
(.700 member)
26/07/14 10:11 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Nice! Nice rifle, too - elegant (the rifle).

Waidmannsheil
(.400 member)
26/07/14 10:49 AM
Re: Open sight rifle shooting distances?

Please, more pictures of that gun and who makes it. Why do some of our members insist on taunting us with these photos were everyone knows the gun is a beauty but we can't really see it properly. Pictures man, pictures.


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