NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 28/11/12 11:56 PM |
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Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Should Sound Moderators be legal in Australia for sporting hunting?
They are in common use in the UK. I used one on a borrowed rifle when hunting in Norway.
Why are they not legal here in Australia? They used to be ...
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Facts about sound moderators
Posted on 13 November 2012 by Robert Borsak
http://www.shootersandfishers.org.au/news/facts-about-sound-moderators
Governments and police around Australia refuse to consider the legalisation of sound moderators for firearms, particularly sporting longarms. The ban on suppressors, as they're also known, is based on nothing but Hollywood fantasy.
In any other situation, moderators would be encouraged for their safety and health benefits. In many nations, they're mandatory. Australian maintains a steadfast and paranoid opposition to them. Why?
Research proves there's virtually no risk of crime through moderators, which do not entirely 'silence' a firearm as the movies suggest. The benefits are great: safe noise levels from firearms, less noise pollution, added safety because shooters do not have to wear earmuffs and much more.
A full report on moderators, which recommends their legaisation, is available here: http://www.gamecouncil.nsw.gov.au/docs/Report-FirearmModerator.pdf.
To hear the difference a sound moderator makes, see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSWRBSOM4Lo.
The NSW Government must drop its irrational opposition to sound moderators and look seriously at legalising them.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 29/11/12 02:13 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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YES they should be legal here too. While electronic ear muffs help in that they allow normal hearing, they are still a pain in the posterior when hunting, even just gophers. It would be very nice indeed to not need them.
As our higher speed air rifles here are considered firearms, suppressors for those are also prohibited.
| gryphon |
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| 29/11/12 06:03 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Yes they should be,maybe the greens wouldn't be so gun shy like a poorly trained dog.
I ran a few shots through both .300 WSM and .270 Win in Ireland recently and was extremely surprised at how effective they were fitted with moderator`s.
Fist is 270,both rifles are HS P`s and both moderators are top line ones but cannot remember the brand names atm.
| DarylS |
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| 29/11/12 11:11 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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A friend of mine years ago made a suppresser for a .22. With high speed HP's all that could be heard, was the click of the striker, just like a dry fire then the bullet striking the target board. NICE!
I'd like one like that on the .17AH - but just to cut the ear-drum sting a bit. It runs 3,925fps with 20gr. Vmax's. Getting it down around 120DB - legally, would be fine - but is not to be.
| Viking338 |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/11/12 12:07 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Yes absolutely, I have suffered permanent damage from my younger years of hunting without earmuffs (wear them at the range of course) but still do due to what I consider safety reasons (hmm might sue the govt) ha fat chance. But yes just a silly rule from ignorant people who don't know any better IMHO.
| kamilaroi |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/11/12 01:03 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Would be a real bitch to use in the scrub!
| Viking338 |
| (.333 member) |
| 29/11/12 01:13 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Yes but depending on the design, the ones that come back down the barrel don't add much length at all. Of course it does change the whole feel of the rifle with more weight at the front. If we were allowed them would I use them, probably not all the time. Just be nice to have the option when like most of us I am a "fine upstanding citizen with no police record" and really don't understand why I need to be nannied by some faceless govt person.
| Ash |
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| 29/11/12 09:21 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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You'd think with all the concern the gov have about our safety they'd allow them because they make it safer. Isn't it a similar principle to all the workplace health and safety laws they bring in? (may be way off topic that, but i think its similar, so should be allowed)
Too many permits and restrictions on recreational activities nowadays.
| Ardent |
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| 30/11/12 12:02 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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I'm all for them too. Frustrating the ignorance Hollywood can induce and spread.
| tinker |
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| 30/11/12 12:52 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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They should be legal everywhere.
Cheers
Tinker
| VonGruff |
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| 01/12/12 06:18 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Someone should be making the comparison between a rifle with a supressor and a car with an exhaust pipe with and without a muffler on it and see if they get the relevance to sound supression rather than to any factless suppositions on thier abbility to "silence" a bullets path.
| Homer |
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| 01/12/12 07:00 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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G'Day Fella's,
In case any of you don't know, I design and manufacture firearm sound suppressors/"Cans".
So given this, I'm sure you know what my thoughts are on this!
Well, I believe it's a No Brainer!!!
In a sporting situation, I consider it to fall under the category of, "Recreational Health and Safety"!
I really need to work out how to post images on this forum, of some examples of my recently I.P.R.P. patented suppressors.
As an example, the .223 Super-Sonic suppressor "Can" has an OAL, of just 115mm or 4 1/2 inches long and 38mm or 1 1/2" in diameter. This measurement, includes the threaded muzzle mount (usually 15mm long), so the Can extends only 100mm or just 4", beyond the muzzle!
FYI, as the powder capacity of the cartridge being fired increases, so does the need for the physical size of the suppressor!
Doh!
Homer
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 01/12/12 04:10 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Assuming I remember to do it, and nothing gets in the way, send them to me at
John.Hahn AT NitroExpress.net
As it is an interesting topic. Can I also upload one or two to the NE facebook page? Using an image is useful to illustrate a link or story.
I prefer web sized images (ie 50 to 200 kb), so I don't need to re-size super sized images down before uploading them ...
Learning to post photos is not hard.
(Anyone else, please don't send unsolicited images for posting! I am very slow at posting them anyway. Doing it yourself is much faster!)
| gryphon |
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| 01/12/12 06:40 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Hey JB you sent me some a while ago,resend them and I can post for you.
| JeffK |
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| 01/12/12 09:32 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Quote:
Fist is 270,both rifles are HS P`s and both moderators are top line ones but cannot remember the brand names atm.
They look like the Reflex T8's to me. Used to have one on my 223 and 243 back in the UK.
| Rule303 |
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| 02/12/12 06:11 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Yes we should be allowed to have them. The supressors add length and make it much harder to hide/secret a firearm so why the hell would pollies or police be worried by them????
| gryphon |
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| 02/12/12 09:44 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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I will find out what make they are.
| bakposten |
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| 02/12/12 10:28 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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In Norway there are actually no restrictions on moderators, unbelievable as it may seem. And almost everyone has one or several now, and we have not seen any increase in criminal activity with either guns or guns with moderator, so I can see no reason at all that they should not be allowed. It takes away the worst noise of the shot and you get a reduced recoil as well, a win win situation.
The only negative sides I can see with a moderator are that it looks really bad, especially when someone ruin a classic rifle putting a moderator on it, and that you have to remove the front sights to mount it.
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 03/12/12 05:00 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Here mate all done.
| Homer |
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| 03/12/12 04:45 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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G'Day Fella's,
Thank You Gryph, your The Best!!!
As previously posted, I hope the images are self explanatory but if you have any questions, just ask!
Doh!
Homer
| Viking338 |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/12/12 04:58 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Hi Homer, you said ask so I will. Might seem obvious to some here in Aus, but I was watching some fotage of a guy that makes adaptors to screw oil filters on and make a silencer. It said in the US the adaptor had to be registered, is it the same here and would be illegal to own or is it the "act" of putting it on that then makes it then an illegal item. Just curious and thought you would be the man to ask
| Homer |
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| 03/12/12 09:12 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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G'Day Fella's,
Viking338, up until a few years ago, it was still completely legal to own a firearm sound suppressor/silencer/moderator/Can, here in the ACT but when that law changed it was uniformly illegal to possess the now "Prohibited Articles" without a "Police Commissioners Permit" (from the state you reside in)!
When the law changed down here, I made inquiries about what justified a Suppressor/Can?
IIRC, both my own solicitor and the AFP F/arms Rego down here confirmed that it was; "The Threaded Portion or Bayonet Mount That Attaches To the Firearm" was the key part!
Hope that helps
Doh!
Homer
| Viking338 |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/12/12 10:06 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Homer, thanks for clearing that up. So even just a threaded washer looking thing is illegal. It looked so innocuous that if it was in a workshop drawer you wouldn't even know it was. Hmmm maybe the whole point I guess!
| Mike_Bailey |
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| 03/12/12 11:23 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Oddly enough with the UK´s extreme firearms stance they often won´t grant the licence if you DO not use a moderator where as here in Spain where the firearms situation is a lot easier, they are illegal !!?? best
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NitroX
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| 04/12/12 04:15 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Quote:
Hey JB you sent me some a while ago,resend them and I can post for you.
Yes I remember now. At the time I am thinking they were only for private viewing only??? Have to check. JG, thanks for posting. Been off the net the last few days.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 04/12/12 04:23 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Quote:
When the law changed down here, I made inquiries about what justified a Suppressor/Can?
IIRC, both my own solicitor and the AFP F/arms Rego down here confirmed that it was; "The Threaded Portion or Bayonet Mount That Attaches To the Firearm" was the key part!
Hope that helps
Doh!
Homer
Quote:
Homer, thanks for clearing that up. So even just a threaded washer looking thing is illegal. It looked so innocuous that if it was in a workshop drawer you wouldn't even know it was. Hmmm maybe the whole point I guess!
Probably depends on the State or Territory legislation again.
I understand when silencers were banned in SA two or three decades ago, the actual silencer or suppressor was illegal to own. Having a threaded muzzle on your barrel was not illegal. Never had legal advice on this though, so of course not giving legal advice on the matter.
Homer,
You may have stated somewhere previously. How effective are these suppressors on high velocity rounds? How quiet or otherwise are they?
Using a borrowed rifle in Norway, I didn't really notice the difference. However it is claimed the animals have trouble placing the direction of the shot. Must have some reduction in the muzzle and noise as well, except I couldn't hear any real difference. Never tested in out intentionally or systematically though. Of course the sonic crack will still occur with high velocity rounds.
| bakposten |
| (.300 member) |
| 04/12/12 07:14 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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According to a test done in a hunting magazine up here in 2011 the test winning moderator reduced a 308 win from 170 to 130 decibel.
| Homer |
| (.416 member) |
| 04/12/12 09:12 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Quote:
Homer, thanks for clearing that up. So even just a threaded washer looking thing is illegal. It looked so innocuous that if it was in a workshop drawer you wouldn't even know it was. Hmmm maybe the whole point I guess!
G'Day Fella's,
Viking 338, it was just a bit of threaded metal, until you brought the authorities up to speed on it!
Mate, I'm not being critical of you, it's just that I'm sure there are a heap of individuals sitting at there computers up at Russell Hill (Ooops! That would have just got a Flag Flying!!!), reading every thing we post here on NE!
But please remember, these same Government people, are helping to keep us all safe!!!
Doh!
Homer
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 04/12/12 09:28 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Homer is having a joke, but forums are read by Police or other authorities from time to time. Some are even members.
| Homer |
| (.416 member) |
| 04/12/12 09:36 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Homer,
You may have stated somewhere previously. How effective are these suppressors on high velocity rounds? How quiet or otherwise are they?
Using a borrowed rifle in Norway, I didn't really notice the difference. However it is claimed the animals have trouble placing the direction of the shot. Must have some reduction in the muzzle and noise as well, except I couldn't hear any real difference. Never tested in out intentionally or systematically though. Of course the sonic crack will still occur with high velocity rounds.
G'Day Fella's,
Nitro X, the best example I can give you is;
I was doing some testing one day and a younger hunting/shooting mate of mine (who has almost always worn ear muffs, so still has good hearing), was there that day. I asked him to stand 5meters to the side and behind me whilst I fired some Super-Sonic (.223Rem, 55gr @ 3200+fps handloaded) ammo. I fired a series of shots and then asked him what he thought and also, how was his hearing? Were his ears ringing? To which he replied No, their fine! I then gave him 5 rounds of the same ammo and said have a shot. He proceeded to fire off this ammo and I then asked him again, hows your hearing? Are your ears ringing, to which he again replied No, their still fine! But this time, he had a huge grin on his face!!!
That is the best practical example I'm able to give!
Now, I have to qualify this by stating, it was just a .223Rem and even one of my "Cans" on a .308 is a some amount louder! I'm still in the process of refining my "Cans", for these larger powder capacity cartridges. But this will include working the combustion gas for these (.308-.30-06-Magnum and .338 Lapua Mag), even harder by shortening them up quite a bit! As an example, I'm hoping to get the .308 Cans down to <140mm OAL, etc etc......!
Hope that helps answer some questions.
Doh!
Homer
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 04/12/12 09:43 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Another of JB`s..Well the units I used in Ireland were fantastic,negligible muzzle jump and the noise reduced immensely,I was super impressed.
| Viking338 |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/12/12 10:17 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Quote:Quote:
Homer, thanks for clearing that up. So even just a threaded washer looking thing is illegal. It looked so innocuous that if it was in a workshop drawer you wouldn't even know it was. Hmmm maybe the whole point I guess!
G'Day Fella's,
Viking 338, it was just a bit of threaded metal, until you brought the authorities up to speed on it!
Mate, I'm not being critical of you, it's just that I'm sure there are a heap of individuals sitting at there computers up at Russell Hill (Ooops! That would have just got a Flag Flying!!!), reading every thing we post here on NE!
But please remember, these same Government people, are helping to keep us all safe!!!
Doh!
Homer
Hi Homer, i did not think you were being critical. It's just i was bored Googling stuff in the office at work and followed some links that led me to all this stuff on You Tube. So I figure "they" know and I was just curious as I am old enough to remember when you could just order them from the back of the Australian Post and People magazines etc. It was purely out of curiosity and adding to the thread.
Do like your work
| gryphon |
| (.450 member) |
| 10/12/12 05:58 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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The ID of the pipes as sent by the mate.
ASE ULTRA COMPACT SUPPRESSOR on the first and on the second rifle its a T8
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 10/12/12 08:08 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Damn - I'd like to have one, but, but, but,
| Gaff |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/12/12 11:28 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Homer, are you welding them instead of screwing them together to save time and production costs ? just being a machinist myself they look a bit rough to a fussy bugger like me.
Cheers gaff
| Homer |
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| 25/12/12 05:05 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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G'Day Fella's,
Gaff, yes both ends are TIG fusion welded in place, by me!
I achieve this, on a rotary jig I designed and made myself.
These suppressors/"Cans" are like most Military & Police marketed (but equally at home, on a Hunters rifle), suppressors these days.
With all of the "Can" being constructed of marine grade stainless steel, you don't need inquisitive or bored owners pulling these apart, to "See How They Work" and not re-assemble them correctly!!!
Gaff, I'm a firm believer in a couple of old engineering principles, they are;
1) Form Follows Function!
2) Keep It Simple Stupid! (The K.I.S.S. principle)
Merry Christmas
Homer
| Gaff |
| (.224 member) |
| 25/12/12 08:26 PM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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All good Homer, I can understand you wanting to keep tinkering fingers out , I had a look inside a mates 308 can that was made by someone in Melbourne and it was quite complex , not just a heap of spaced washers like the old 22 ones you used to be able to buy.
Cheers gaff
| EricD |
| (.416 member) |
| 26/12/12 08:08 AM |
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Re: Should Sound Moderators be legal for hunting in Australia?
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Quote:
Using a borrowed rifle in Norway, I didn't really notice the difference. However it is claimed the animals have trouble placing the direction of the shot. Must have some reduction in the muzzle and noise as well, except I couldn't hear any real difference. Never tested in out intentionally or systematically though. Of course the sonic crack will still occur with high velocity rounds.
The one on the 7x64 you used reduces the sound by about 28db IIRC. Had you tried it one shot with, and one shot without, you would have noticed the difference.