Thanks CommandCar, will try after I get my GREEN pool straightened out! Back in the middle 1970's I owned a Holland and Holland 12 Bore under lever hammer double rifle in it's original oak and leather case that was marked for a 4 1/4" brass case and 10 drams! It weighed just over 16 pounds and was almost unfired. The charge card in the case also verified the charge and case length. An original conical mold was also in the case.A Holland factory letter said it was made for an Ali Beg! Sadly I needed money and sold it to Gary Herman at Safari Outfitters. Never did get to shoot it! Herman sold it to a guy named English, who I talked to about shooting it. He said it was very load but the velocity was not much more than a lighter load. A single shot in that loading was also made by Hollands. Thanks again!