Daryl thanks I would like to use black at some point but would like to get a good shooting load first. I loaded 6 shells tonight and I got a very good crimp with the lee hand tool they have stayed crimped and I didn't push the crimp to far into the hull what I did was get a C clamp and used that to put the crimp in so that they look like factory loads. I used the bottom of the shot cup cut off then a 1/4" over powder card and 3 1/2" felt wads that puts the ball just at the line where the shell folds to crimp and has some pressure on the ball and wad's I will try them tomrrow If I get the chanch to go to the range. I'll keep everyone posted as to what works and what dosen't Tom N.