| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 18/12/13 01:05 PM |
Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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I have acquired a Lancaster Shot and Ball gun, and after taking some measurements etc. have the following: Bores both at .730, 6 groove polygonal, very shallow rifling. Seems straight and uniform up to about 8" from the muzzle, where it imparts a slow twist, and about a light mod. choke. All this is very difficult to see, and I have no clue as to twist rate.
Came with some modern H&H paradox loads, which have the Fosbery style bullet of 750 gr. lubed with what looks for all the world like liquid alox! Patterns shot well, don't know yet about the paradox loads.
So- I will be ordering a roundball mould, and think about .735-.740 should work. Conical to follow.
Thoughts??
Doug
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 18/12/13 04:07 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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First thought:
You lucky guy!
What's the weight?
Weight of barrels alone?
Width/height at breech?
Width of buttplate?
Photo of muzzles and sights please...
Cheers
Tinker
| Grenadier |
| (.375 member) |
| 18/12/13 08:33 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Do not shoot the modern H&H Paradox loads through that gun. The H&H Paradox guns were and are made overbore. The bullets in those loads are ~.735" diameter. I would start with bullets sized a 2-3 thousandths smaller than the bore.
You say the rifling is polygonal. You should check to see if your gun has the oval bores where the narrow portions of the oval are significantly tighter than the wider portions. There was a little discussion of those here: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=187622&an=0&page=0
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 19/12/13 03:38 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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The gun's groove diameter (at the muzzle) should dictate what size round ball moulds you get, Doug, unless you try cloth-patched balls, which were quite interesting in my tests - very accurate and very clean shooting.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/12/13 01:55 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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An update- first, I apologize not having taken pics- will try to get to that! It seems there is no choke as previously thought, just forcing cone in front of the chamber. The groove dia. has been verified as .730 at both breech and muzzles, straight until the last 6" where the twist is. Metford style rifling .005 deep. Interesting- the barrels are actually swamped in profile!
So far I have been using .735 dia fosbery style bullets, since that is what I have, with no success. Groups are non-existent. Yesterday got a push thru die made in .729, so will try that size. Will also try different alloys. BTW, the powder charge has been from 25- 28.5 gr Universal Clays. Any advise would be appreciated!
Thanks, Doug
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/12/13 03:06 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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I think staying with shotgun-type powders might be a good idea - to keep the speeds in the lower range, but then, perhaps that is why it is not grouping - just casting a suggestion. I would try a slower burning powder, rather than the trap-type powders.
The .729" sizer might be the ticket.
I would try Herco, SR7625 and SR4756. All three of those have worked well for me in a smooth 12 bore.
I did buy some Longshot and Steel for testing, but winter got in the way of that - another 8 to 10" of it last night.
Lube is another avenue for group effect. They will make a difference at times.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/12/13 11:02 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Tried 10 rd of the .729 bullets, and 27 gr Universal Clays- some success! At 100 yd I can do about 10" crossing, and it seems there is some grouping- just on steel today due to crowded conditions. But- this is the best so far. I also found the Lancaster seems to like to be held very firmly, grip it and pull it in. So, crossing would indicate to me that I need less powder, or possibly a heavier bullet?
I am using Magtec brass cases, because I like them, and 3 each nitro and 1/2" fiber wads to get the height right. I am putting 40 lb of compression to the wad column, according to the MEC press. After cutting one of the H&H Paradox shells apart, they are using a much more solid wad column- wonder if more wad pressure, and therefore a denser column would matter? Something else to try.
Doug
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/12/13 12:17 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Multiple cards rather the cushion wads will change things.
Experimentation is soooo much fun! Pain if you can't load at the range though.
A portable outfit (press and powder measure and C-clamps to hold it down to a table) in the clubhouse works for me.
It's nice to be able to change a load slightly, they simply walk over the the firing line to test it.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/12/13 12:46 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Doug where and how are you holding the barrels?
A full tight grip of both of them, ahead of the forend might help.
Forget the forend wood is there at all.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 31/12/13 01:03 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Hmmm-- forget the forend wood- interesting! Think I will try all card wads as well. I now think if I can get rid of the crossing I will be close, well either more or less powder!?
Thanks for the advise! Doug
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 31/12/13 03:24 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Yes - by all means, grip the barrels ahead of the fore stock, resting the back of that hand on the bags.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 31/12/13 04:45 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Grip.
Emphasis on grip.
Thumb and fingers around the tubes.
There will be no barrel heat concerns at all.
More or less powder can help too.
Work on the hold first.
Cheers
Tinker
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 31/12/13 11:13 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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OK! Advise taken, and appreciated! 10 loaded for tomorrow, with 26 gr and another card wad, upped the wad pressure to 95 lb. I really don't understand the wad pressure thing, just experimenting. Grip- I have always used a thumb and fingers grip on the doubles, just never really thought about it too much- held on so all won't get away. I'll try choking this critter, and don't want any comments about that!
Thanks! Doug
| tinker |
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| 31/12/13 11:35 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Yes Doug
This may well be one where two in the hand beats one in the bush (or the tall grass!)...
Cheers
Tinker
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/12/13 02:04 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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I assume you are using a paradox style bullet sized to .729. The crimp makes a bigger difference than the wad pressure (I use 100lbs) How are you crimping the brass cases? Why not use a paper case? Being able to size your bullet from barely engaging the rifling to larger in increments of .001 would be a plus or maybe a teflon wrap to increase size. I would have gone with about 19 grains unique with a short column ring crimp and partial closure in a paper case with the .729 bullet for a first load but I cannot recommend this load to any others.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 01/01/14 11:21 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Well, I tried both 26 of UC, with 95 lb wad pressure and a firm roll on the brass cases, with a firm grip- and I'm getting there! Still shooting crossed by 10 or so at 100. Also tried 19 gr Unique, and crossed by 2'! Looks like the slower load (by felt recoil, my Chrony was at home) crosses worse than the faster. Maybe recoil is a plus here? So, I'll work with what I have, would like to try some heavier bullets, but don't have access to any.
Thanks, All, Doug
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 01/01/14 03:43 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Bring the chronograph.
Very important.
...and velocity and recoil can help.
But bring that chronograph.
| CommandCar |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/01/14 10:40 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Quote:
Well, I tried both 26 of UC, with 95 lb wad pressure and a firm roll on the brass cases, with a firm grip- and I'm getting there! Still shooting crossed by 10 or so at 100. Also tried 19 gr Unique, and crossed by 2'! Looks like the slower load (by felt recoil, my Chrony was at home) crosses worse than the faster. Maybe recoil is a plus here? So, I'll work with what I have, would like to try some heavier bullets, but don't have access to any.
Thanks, All, Doug
My experience is these guns cross low when the velocity is too low. I suggest you get a copy (if you do not have) of the DGJ issue where Sherman Bell discusses loading for Paradox guns. If you follow his methodology, you will be using Unique, shortened Federal Paper cases, nitro cards and cork wads. You may roll or "fix", John Millar in Canada can make you the proper roll crimper for the Fosbery slugs. As I read through this thread, most of these have been recommended by others. Sherman's loads will almost surely be safe in your Ball & Shot, so this is a really good place to start. I believe 19 grains of Unique was a starting load that worked in some of the older black powder guns? Also, if you used the 19 grain Unique load in Magtech Brass shells, instead of Federal Paper hulls, you did not follow the suggestion at all...
There are so many variables in creating ammunition that will regulate in you Lancaster that it is almost a waste to not chronograph each and every combination. Almost surely, your projectile should be traveling between 1050 and 1150 fps. In a few cases it should be about 1200, but there are usually clues to the faster load, like a B&S that weighs 7.5 lbs or more.
BTW, I worked up loads for a late Wm. Evans, you can follow my reporting on older threads on NE. The range had a large pond next to it. More that once I fantasized about hurling the paradox way out in the middle of the lake. These things can be frustrating.
Sounds like you have a B&S that will eventually produce 4"-6" groups at 100 yards. Good Luck.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 02/01/14 11:10 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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CC, well, I did follow as well as possible without completely redoing everything! Trying to work with what I have available here! I sure appreciate the advise however, and may very well end up there. Today I had access to a scale that told me what I thought were 750 gr Fosberys were in fact 690gr! My balance beam scale doesn't go that high, so relied on what I remembered- guess that is a mistake at this age! Now, this is crossing, but high- about 12" at 100---!
Yep, the chrony is a must, but dang! I am finding these B&S are a bit hard on the ol' chrony! I have started using a piece of 2x4 in front of the thing, but find the wads will still sneak in where they aren't supposed to be!
Happy New Year to all, and thanks for the help!! Doug
| AkMike |
| (.416 member) |
| 02/01/14 02:15 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Save yourself some grief with the Chrony's!
That 'divot' in the front is from a FMJ 30-06.
| gatsby |
| (.375 member) |
| 02/01/14 03:07 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Quote:Quote:
Well, I tried both 26 of UC, with 95 lb wad pressure and a firm roll on the brass cases, with a firm grip- and I'm getting there! Still shooting crossed by 10 or so at 100. Also tried 19 gr Unique, and crossed by 2'! Looks like the slower load (by felt recoil, my Chrony was at home) crosses worse than the faster. Maybe recoil is a plus here? So, I'll work with what I have, would like to try some heavier bullets, but don't have access to any.
Thanks, All, Doug
Sherman's loads will almost surely be safe in your Ball & Shot, so this is a really good place to start. I believe 19 grains of Unique was a starting load that worked in some of the older black powder guns
Correct and 19grs is a good ultra safe place to start, in a Holland or Westley . Federal paper is the way to go. Prior to increasing the charge weight I would have increased the bullet diameter to see what effect that might have. Teflon wrap or paper patch your .729 bullet to increase the diameter if you don't have an assortment of sizers. If you have shot the unsized bullet (.735?) in the gun with the UC load try it in the 19gr loading. Good luck. Where did you get the 690gr paradox bullets? Hope they are not hardcast. Stay with 20-1.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/01/14 03:37 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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I didn't think of that, but when that size, a change in alloy can make a considerable difference in weight as gatsby suggests - recoil, pressure & thus regulation.
That's a wonderful set-up, Mike - for any chronograph.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/01/14 07:56 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Success! Thanks, to all!! A 750 gr bullet sized down to .729 at 1050 is the ticket. I pulled apart 4 of the H&H rounds, and resized the bullet, then reloaded in the brass cases to 1050, and it works. Can't send any targets, as the ranges were full for what I was doing, but shooting at a 6" rock at 100m, I can bust it in half, then hit one of the halves- this twice in a row, and to the sights! SB mould on order.
Seems the recoil factor is at play here. When I reduced velocity the crossing got worse, the opposite of what I expected. I think that at this low velocity, the recoil is more of a factor than barrel dwell time. Anyhow, thanks to all, and Mike, that is a great idea for the Chrono! Seems that no matter how well I protected the thing, a wad would still fly out at the wrong time!
Thanks, All Doug
| AkMike |
| (.416 member) |
| 03/01/14 08:35 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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You should have seen the Chrony that died with a 4 bore wad hitting it! I may still have a pic of it somewhere. If I find it I'll post it up.
| CommandCar |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/01/14 09:06 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Quote:
Success! Thanks, to all!! A 750 gr bullet sized down to .729 at 1050 is the ticket. I pulled apart 4 of the H&H rounds, and resized the bullet, then reloaded in the brass cases to 1050, and it works. Can't send any targets, as the ranges were full for what I was doing, but shooting at a 6" rock at 100m, I can bust it in half, then hit one of the halves- this twice in a row, and to the sights! SB mould on order.
Seems the recoil factor is at play here. When I reduced velocity the crossing got worse, the opposite of what I expected. I think that at this low velocity, the recoil is more of a factor than barrel dwell time. Anyhow, thanks to all, and Mike, that is a great idea for the Chrono! Seems that no matter how well I protected the thing, a wad would still fly out at the wrong time!
Thanks, All Doug
Well done! The mould that duplicates the H&H slug, perfectly, is available from CBE in Australia. It is mould #735-735, the Fosbery style paradox, not the blunt one that is 735-735R.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 03/01/14 09:33 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Nice!!
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/01/14 11:20 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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BTW, even when I protected the Chrony with 2x4, and believe me I did have things covered, those dam wads will go sideways and sneak in from anywhere! Even when very carefully being in a position where neither end is visible, one of those will sail in there! I think, however, that I have solved the problem in a reliable manner.
I'll let my buddy send some over the Chrony, with the proper admonitions, and he can fix it!!
Doug
| tinker |
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| 03/01/14 01:29 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Doug I have trouble with the chronograph under the bore rifles too.
It ain't just you I assure...
Cheers
Tinker
| CommandCar |
| (.333 member) |
| 24/01/14 11:45 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Don't know why I forgot this, but Mike Rowe has a cherry cut to make moulds that cast .734ish H&H ammunition paradox slug copies. He made the cherry for me a couple years ago, should be perfect for the Lancaster.
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/06/14 11:21 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Final update- For some time now I have been following Ross Seyfreid's advise. Fed paper hull trimmed to 2.5", 22.5 Unique, nitro card, 2 hard waxed 1/2" wads, 750 Fosbery style bullet cast at .730, LLA lube, and garotte crimp. This is close to being the most accurate double I own! I can consistently hit a bowling pin at 100 m. offhand both barrels! Though not many times- not a lot left after 10 or so hits.
Best, Doug
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 06/06/14 10:25 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Good!
| CommandCar |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/06/14 02:38 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Quote:
I have acquired a Lancaster Shot and Ball gun, and after taking some measurements etc. have the following: Bores both at .730, 6 groove polygonal, very shallow rifling. Seems straight and uniform up to about 8" from the muzzle, where it imparts a slow twist, and about a light mod. choke. All this is very difficult to see, and I have no clue as to twist rate.
Doug
Doug,
Do you mind making an attempt to measure twist on your barrel? I really have to know. I imagine you would use a cleaning rod with a tight patch. Insert rod with patch into barrel, mark start location on rod, also put a mark on the top of the rod that is sufficiently long to not disappear in the barrel as the rod is pushed in. Push rod in and record stop location for 1 full turn. Mark stop location, the distance between start and stop would be your twist rate. If it is slower than your barrel length, you would measure 1/2 revolution length and multiply by 2 or, if really slow, measure 1/4 revolution length and multiply by 4.
Sorry for the step-by-step, but just I went through step-by-step on the off chance that you were unversed in determining twist.
Thanks for your Help.
CC
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/06/14 09:29 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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I'll try- likely be able to do this tomorrow. It may not be too precise, due to the very short section that actually rotates, it may be difficult to determine where that twist actually starts! But, we'll give it a go.
Doug
| gungadoug |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/07/14 06:13 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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OK, I tried! Using the technique described, I can see no rotation. Possibly because the rifling is so shallow, and very smooth. If I try to figure this, I come up with maybe 1 in 54"??? I could be way off! It looks like 1/4" rotation in 6", if the circumference is 2.3", that would be 1/9th of a turn in 6"? This is all kind of a guess, and my math could be way off.
Best guess! Doug
| rigbymauser |
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| 03/07/14 07:32 AM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Quote:
OK, I tried! Using the technique described, I can see no rotation. Possibly because the rifling is so shallow, and very smooth.
Yes!.
| CommandCar |
| (.333 member) |
| 03/07/14 12:20 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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Gungadoug,
Thanks for checking. Your math looks good. Appears to be a situation where it is like trying to measure the speed of light with a wristwatch, yardstick and a flashlight...
I was interested because, at least the early Paradox chokes are reported to be 1 in 36". Most of the modern rifled 12's sabot guns are 1 in 34" to 36" too. I am wondering what twist it takes to stabilize a Fosbery slug.
Thanks again for your efforts.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 03/07/14 01:18 PM |
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Re: Observations on a Lancaster shot and ball gun
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In 12 bore - a short Paradox slug would easily be stabilized by a 72" twist, I'm sure, and round ball, easily at 100".
Greenwells formula will show the slowest twist necessary - usually a few inch faster twist is better than what is given by the 150 constant.
Greenwells formula doesn't seem to work well with round balls, for some strange reason.