| FraesrVelox |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/12/15 01:00 AM |
Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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I recently acquired a Daniel Fraser take-down Mauser rifle chambered in Fraser's proprietary .303 Velox round. The rifle was made circa 1896, and is built on a Mauser 1893 action. The rifle is a real beauty and came in an oak and leather case with few accessories. I'd really like to get the gun shooting again and was hoping to get some input from the board. In searching the forum archives it looks like there may be some other other members shooting the Velox rounds.
Jonathan Kirton's new book on Daniel Fraser devotes many pages to discussion of the Velox rounds to include detailed case dimensions on the .303 Velox. The Fraser .303 Velox is similar but NOT identical to the 7.65x53 Belgian/Argentinian Mauser.
Any members shooting the .303 Velox round today? If so, how did you do it? I'm in touch with a custom ammunition maker, but wanted to get some input if there is a "easy way", or at least, a "less hard way" of going about this. The gun did come with a dummy round with which I will confirm the case dimensions.
Thanks for looking in. I'm a new member on the board and appreciate any input. I'll see if I can get some pics of the rifle up.
Thanks,
Ken
- I have been trying to find and purchase an original .303 Velox round without success. I'd love to have a couple to reunite with the gun. If anyone know where I might find one for sale, please let me know.
| FraesrVelox |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/12/15 01:05 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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A couple of photos of the rifles -
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 20/12/15 01:32 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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do you need to hear you have done anything right till now?
nice rifle, is it possible to shoot common 7,65x53 ammo in this rifle?
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/12/15 01:53 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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super looking rifle. congrats.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 20/12/15 02:16 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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Welcome to Nitro Express!
Its all downhill from here...
Great rifle!
I have read (some right here on NE) that the rimless Fraser Velox really is the 7.65 Argentine loaded with Fraser's special ratchet bullet.
There is also a rimmed version apparently using a 303Brit case and the Fraser bullet.
I am thinking your rifle could be chambered in either but more than likely the rimless.
Do a chamber cast (which is a breeze on a detachable barrel) and see if there is any difference to the Argentine case. If there is, it will probably be in the neck and shoulder which can be easily fireformed.
Do a search here. WVFred has or had one of these.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 20/12/15 05:07 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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NICE Rifle!
| FraesrVelox |
| (.224 member) |
| 20/12/15 05:27 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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All,
Thank you for the warm welcome and feedback.
When I began researching the .303 Velox round round, I was hoping the the cartridge was simply the 7.65x53 round loaded with Fraser's patented serrated projectiles. According to Kirton's book, this is not the case. The book states the bolt on .303 Velox rifles will not close on standard 7.65 mauser cartridges due to the longer length of the cartridge. The book mentions that the factory often re-reamed earlier .303 Velox rifles to accept the 7.65 round in the early 1900s. Kristen's book also provides a very detailed schematics of the dimensional differences in the the two cartridges.
I do not have the rifle in hand yet, but hope to have it by Christmas. The first order of business will be to do a chamber cast to confirm the original .303 Velox chambering. If the cast shows the gun has been modified to accept the 7.65 round, that is what I'll shoot. I suspect though that the chambering is the original .303 Velox. I'd like to keep the rifle this way and need to figure out what I will take to create rounds for it. I suspect that will involve having cases made for the gun which I expect to be very pricey. Hopefully someone has been down this road already and can provide their thoughts and guidance.
Thanks again for the input,
Ken
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 20/12/15 05:55 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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the 303 Velox
7,65x53 Mauser
http://municion.org/
if this is correct your main problem is base diameter and shoulder diameter.I know the thick base problem from my M 88 rifle in 9x57 which does not accept new brass. modern 8x57 IS brass is around 11,90 on the base so I lathe turn it down to 11,70 mm whats a simple job.
Norma 9,3x57 brass is similar small on the base but maybe not 11,65mm so there will be no basic brass you can use without reducing base diamter.
because its 56mm long you better start with 8x57 IS, 30 06 brass needs maybe neck reaming.
imho, the best is to order a die set for the 303 Velox from ch4d this will give you the right shoulder.
| Huvius |
| (.416 member) |
| 20/12/15 06:37 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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One post here somewhere mentions that one cased rifle had a few fired cases made from 8X57 Mauser.
I expect, that with the right dies, a simple trim and full length resize may do the trick once the base diameter is turned down a bit. That is if the resize doesn't do the trick.
Ken, I would give making your own brass a shot before going to a custom maker.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 20/12/15 06:49 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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Must be careful with ANY base turning. Swaging might be a better way to go, and if necessary, re-drilling or reaming the primer pockets.
Chamber cast then measurements in inches - making this easier to work is the way I would go.
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 20/12/15 07:07 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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was thinking about this again
303 Velux
and the winner is...
303 British
turn down the rim and cut extractor groove
I would not hesitate to use the 303 die set for reloading
| eagle27 |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/12/15 07:13 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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If I recall correctly I have an old Handloader Digest around that had an article in it about the 303 Velox, I'll dig it up and have a look. As soon as I saw your post it triggered something in my old brain that I have read about this before.
BTW a beautiful rifle and a pleasure to own but an even greater one to use if possible.
| LesLeeSpeed |
| (.300 member) |
| 20/12/15 09:52 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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Hi,
I had a friend who had a Fraser 98 mauser years ago in 303. I don't know whether it was a velox or not, but he used to turn the rim off 303Br cases and cut an extractor groove to make what was essentially a rimless 303Br.
I think I still have a round somewhere, so maybe able to give some dimensions if needed. This may be a good place to start and would be an easy source of cases.
LesLeeSpeed
| dons |
| (.333 member) |
| 20/12/15 10:04 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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PM sent
| eagle27 |
| (.400 member) |
| 20/12/15 11:21 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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Quote:
If I recall correctly I have an old Handloader Digest around that had an article in it about the 303 Velox, I'll dig it up and have a look. As soon as I saw your post it triggered something in my old brain that I have read about this before.
BTW a beautiful rifle and a pleasure to own but an even greater one to use if possible.
No the brain got it wrong, it was the H&H Velopex 303 that the Handloader Digest has an article about.
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 20/12/15 12:13 PM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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By those measurements, a turned rim and extractor groove would be a 1 minute job on a lathe, per case.
When I needed to do this to a .450 Alaskan case (originally a .348 Winch.), turning off the rims to .532" and cutting an extractor groove for my .458 Alaskan ctg. to fit a model 70 Winchester rifle, I ground a cutter to make both cuts in a single plunge. That might have taken 15 seconds per case on my old worn-out lathe.
Here is a picture that should show some of what is needed to convert a .303 case to the .303 Velox. For the .303 Rimmed conversion to rimless, there will be less material removed than what I had to do, due to the .303 rimless rim's diameter being closer to the ctg. base diameter.
I had to turn the rim down to a rebated rim (smaller than the case head) to fit a standard magnum bolt face. A standard magnum bolt is considerably smaller in diameter than the .348 case head diameter.
Any machinist or die grinder can grind the cutting tool, given a picture and measurements to go by. If I can do it, anyone can.
An alternative is to use a single tool and cut each case in two steps.
| FraesrVelox |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/12/15 10:09 AM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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All,
Thank you for the input. I should have the gun in hand by the end of the week. The first order of business will be a cerrosafe chamber cast. I am hopeful the dummy round that comes with the gun will be useful to determine what I have. I also went ahead and ordered a 7.65x53 round to verify the round will not chamber.
I am hopeful with the information in the posts above that, should the gun be in its original .303 Velox chambering, creating ammunition for it will be possible.
More to follow,
Ken
| Rigby350 |
| (.300 member) |
| 22/12/15 07:58 PM |
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Re: Fraser .303 Velox - Loading Help Needed
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Hi Ken,
I have almost the identical rifle, chambered for the 303 Velox, I use 303 brass with the rim turned down and an extractor groove cut into it. I use 215gr Woodleigh projectiles ( the load escapes me at the moment) which deliver superb accuracy.