John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

07/11/12 04:42 AM

The Queen's Rifle

In 1943 John Rigby & Co. made exactly one rifle. During the height of the war, Rigby was busy making "machine gun clips." His Majesty King George VI ordered a .275 Rigby for Princess Elizabeth. Rifle number 5747 was completed on July 31, 1943. The rifle weighed 6 lbs 14oz with a 23.5" barrel and a 13 1/4" length of pull with a silver oval bearing her crest.

This year for the SCI Live Auction, we are donating a copy of this historic rifle, with case and accessories. Serial number 5747A will have a 13.5" length of pull. Here are a few pictures of the rifle at various stages of work.

(.400 member)

07/11/12 05:09 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

That wood will be stunnishing. Interesting to see the final result.

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

07/11/12 05:31 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

I'll post more pictures as the rifle progresses.

(.400 member)

07/11/12 05:57 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

It would be a real coup if you were able to have a picture spread of Her Majesties rifle with your reproduced version, for us here predominately, but for the new owner it would really be something to add value both historic and in tearms of provenence.

(.300 member)

07/11/12 06:07 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Now THAT is a Rigby!

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

07/11/12 06:50 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Thank you Stephen. Now for final stock shaping...

(.400 member)

07/11/12 07:27 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

You will probably remember me posting this a long time back !

Oddly enough, 6 years or so ago when I was trying to decide between a Holland, a Purdey or a Westley double .375 I visited Purdeys, they didn´t have any double rifles in stock as they were "away at a gun show" but the young chap left in charge went downstairs and brought up the double they made as a gift to Elizabeth II on her coronation, in . 400 Purdey as I recall, very neat tang aperture and as far as I could tell, unfired, I loved the gold oval, ER (as you would

best, Mike

(.416 member)

07/11/12 05:27 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

G'Day Fella's,

Thank You for the images Kent!
Another stunning rifle!!!

A year or two ago, I imported and done the firearm transfer, for a mate/customer of mine.
It was for a WR, "QEII Coronation Rifle", in .375 H&H Mag!
Not sure how may were made to celebrate Liz's coronation but this was one of them.

Doh!
Homer

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

06/12/12 12:28 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

The rifle has just been engraved with period "font," what do you think?

(.375 member)

06/12/12 10:02 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

good work kent ...this is the rigby name at its best....paul

(.400 member)

06/12/12 02:36 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Whoever did the lettering is a top engraver. BTW should there be a period after "Rigby"?

(.333 member)

06/12/12 02:51 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

I can't wait to see more images as time goes on, beautiful indeed!

(.400 member)

06/12/12 05:11 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

That is beautiful in so many ways but why are my eye's decieving me as to the top line of serial numbers not being in a straight line in the last pic.I am seeing some numbers being above and below the others, in particular the two sevens seem to be higher than the 5, the 4 and the Q or is it just the perspective. Love the font used.

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

07/12/12 05:35 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Here is a picture of the ledger entry where H.M. King George VI ordered the original rifle for Princess Elizabeth.

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

07/12/12 07:38 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

The font is the same style as the original. There should not be a period after Rigby.

(.400 member)

07/12/12 08:30 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Are there pictures of the Original Rifle? Where is the Original Rifle now?

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

11/12/12 04:15 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

There are no known photos of the original rifle. We talked to a gentleman that photographed the rifles that belong to royal family. He did not photograph her Rigby. Subsequently, I have discovered in our day books that in addition to H.M The Queen, The Queen Mother and Prince Charles also have Rigby .275s that have come back for service over the years. The Queen Mother and Prince Charles' rifles were not ordered new. H.M. The Queen told Paul Roberts that her rifle is "at Balmoral, still being used by the boys." We assume she meant Princes Harry and William.

(.400 member)

11/12/12 07:55 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

(Stir) Now if it was only in 250-3000 it would be perfect ....

(.333 member)

11/12/12 10:45 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

I will be in Scotland next year for a month staying within an easy drive of Balmoral with my relations. Maybe I should give them some notice and I can pop in and get a photo of me with the Rigby. Maybe a cuppa and biscuits as well.
Now who could arrange this for me?

Rick

(.375 member)

29/12/12 09:52 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

kent what happening with this ....paul

(.300 member)

07/01/13 02:50 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

For me, "The Queen's Rifle" defines the Rigby magazine rifle. Trim, svelte, well-balanced...and of course, chambered in .275 Rigby. It's a classic Rigby throughout. Kent graciously allowed me to take a few photos to post of it along with some other pictures while visiting the John Rigby & Co. booth this past weekend at the Dallas Safari Club show.

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

08/01/13 07:59 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Thanks Stephen! It was nice to meet you in person. I've been swamped the last couple of weeks and haven't had time to post any photos. Here are a few that we took during the DSC Convention.

(.450 member)

08/01/13 09:21 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

I love the "Q" after the numbers is it coincidental or purposeful....... would you cut a "K " if an original was done for William?

(.375 member)

08/01/13 12:57 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

very nice job and i could see that the bolt knob and handle is bent exactly like the originals ...paul

(.333 member)

08/01/13 03:17 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

The rifle is as long as Her Majesty is tall. If she was 5 foot two in her prime, that would be it. Looking at the rifle's dimensions I would have expected a shorter length of pull.

Nice rifle.

(.416 member)

08/01/13 05:44 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

That is very nice. I certainly do like the period engraving.

(.450 member)

08/01/13 05:51 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Quote:

The rifle is as long as Her Majesty is tall. If she was 5 foot two in her prime, that would be it. Looking at the rifle's dimensions I would have expected a shorter length of pull.

Nice rifle.

I dunno about matching her height.

(.300 member)

09/01/13 02:02 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Im not one to normally come and piss on the bonfire but...

Isnt there a considerable gap between the left sidewall of the action and the stock?
The action looks to me as prefinished with a carding wheel.(Rounded corners , no clean lines).
Have seen much better craftsmanship.

What really turned me off is the stock, especially the rear tang groove for the cocking piece.
The cocking piece clearance at the back of the action doesn't look like it was ever sanded and the inletting does look loose.

Being given away I guess the owner cant complain, but just my 2 cents..

For comparison, here is a dorleac in a similar style.

(.224 member)

15/01/13 07:22 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

That’s just SUCH the classic Rigby “working” rifle. Nothing that doesn’t need to be there, and everything that does. With the big hubble scoped monstrosities made today, they seemed to have forgotten that there are some people in this world who actually WALK places with a rifle. The traditional open sighted magazine rifles are oh-so much better for carry in the woods or plains.

Mr. Coker and I had the good fortune of being able to shoot a rather plain, non engraved; certainly not a “Best Quality” Mauser magazine rifle that wore the style of Boss & Co. Rather similar to the Queen’s Rigby in most ways, and slightly different in others. Still, at the end of the day it was another magnificently balanced, fine shooting rifle that just screamed to go hunting. Mr. Coker and I beat the living snot out of a 150 yard gong with groups that could have been hidden under a Dixie cup. And this all off-hand without the aid of a scope…yes folks, it can be done…Even by a bespectacled old fart such as myself.

(.224 member)

15/01/13 07:40 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Quote:

Im not one to normally come and piss on the bonfire but...

Isnt there a considerable gap between the left sidewall of the action and the stock?
The action looks to me as prefinished with a carding wheel.(Rounded corners , no clean lines).
Have seen much better craftsmanship.

What really turned me off is the stock, especially the rear tang groove for the cocking piece.
The cocking piece clearance at the back of the action doesn't look like it was ever sanded and the inletting does look loose.

Being given away I guess the owner cant complain, but just my 2 cents..

For comparison, here is a dorleac in a similar style.

I think I would take issue with that…very respectfully, of course.

First the wood – Both of the features you mentioned could be accounted for by just the angle or lighting of the image. Since most of the other inletting can be seen clearly and looks right, I’m willing to go with the assumption, the rest is right. (Honestly the real test is with the eye, and rifle in hand).

As for the “squareness” of the receiver. Perhaps you have seen more Rigby’s or other English magazine rifles, or perhaps different ones than I have seen. The vast majority I have seen exhibit no signs of “truing up the action” or facing of the action. Or even truing up the edges from what came off the assembly line from Oberndorf. These were inexpensive (relatively speaking) rifles, and most of those who turned these fine sporters out, found very little that was objectionable with the original Mauser rifle. This is Mauser 98’s I’m talking about.

Go to ‘94’s, ‘95’s & ‘96’s and things change a bit; but only a bit. Your average pre-98 Mausers tended to come off the assembly line with such edged a little more crisp than those of the 98’s. I have handled several brand new, unfired military 98 Mausers and most had some subtle rounding of the front of the receiver ring; just like the Rigby in question.

So while an action that has been squared up may be somehow “better” may or may not be true. If I were looking for a modern rifle, I would absolutely demand it. But to my eye, what the gentlemen at Rigby are trying to capture is the magazine rifle of a century ago (or there ’bouts; no offense to HRH The Queen) not an English magazine rifle of today. Today standards and expectations are much higher from a very technical standpoint.

To my eye at least, and I know I’m not completely alone in my assessment; the magazine rifle of yesteryear is far more appealing than the magazine rifles turned out by the big houses today. Yeah, that’s right…I actually DON’T WANT my rifle action trued; I want it exactly as it was back then. Square off corners and true the action on a new gun. But if you’re going to do a modern “vintage” rifle, then pick up a file and do it like they did it.

Again, respectfully sir.

(.333 member)

15/01/13 09:45 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

k3030AI
I have some trouble to understand your observations about the truing of the action on "modern" made custom Mauser rifle.
The rifle photographed on the first photo isn't a DORLEAC rifle (the second one is) but a genuine Rigby No.1 intermediate action made in 1906 for Admiral Sir Roger John Brownlow KEYES. The action bears the "WAFFENFABRIK MAUSER–OBERNDORF A/N" marking rolled on the left sidewall and the barrel the "John Rigby & Co – 72 St James’s St. London" address.
You will notice how faultless is the barrel fitting and the wood inletting, even with a not very good light.
I have owned that rifle a long time and I owe to the true to recognize that it was flawlessly assembled with a well squared receiver and a perfectly fitted barrel.
I don't think that the rifles made by Mauser or finished by Rigby before WW1 were hastily finished with rounded corner and "unsquared" actions…all the bolt action of that period I was lucky enough to have in hands (...and I have seen and shot a lot) were certainly practical, but also superbly build.
Honestly there is not any disadvantage to use a trued and squared action on a plain modern made open sights rifle.
Hope you will understand my not very good English.
All the best.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

(.224 member)

15/01/13 10:29 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Dorleac,

My comments were directed to the text of his assessment, not to the rifle photos he posted. As to roundness, that's a very relative term. It's apparent that we have either viewed different rifles, or made different conclusions.

(.333 member)

15/01/13 07:47 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

The statement of Dorleac is correct.

If Rigby´s wanted to build a rifle which claims to be a copy of the old day Rigby , they should have paid more attention to the finish , because they used a military action as a basis for their remake and not a commercial action(barelled action) fresh from the factory as they did in the days gone by.

(.300 member)

16/01/13 12:55 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Bang on, Dont get me wrong I like it. I just find it too crude to warrant the kind of prices quoted.
To me it seems rather inplausible that Rigby would have used a military mauser action to make a queens rifle when you know they used a brand spanking new commercial one for even "regular" customers ( if such a term ever applied) - but that is a topic for another day.

(.375 member)

16/01/13 05:49 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

we cant forget that when we see a vintage english rifle we are looking at something that has taken on a patina of its own be it the wood or metal ,that is not an easy thing to reproduce and shouldnt ,,im going to cut kent some slack on the action ,as it isnt easy to come up with an intermidiate anything let alone an oberndorf,,the shape of the bolt handle that hugs the stock just a little closer than the ordinary commercial mauser bolt is a nice touch and overlooked for the past 60 years at rigbys ,,the slimming down of the trigger guard came out nice too,,as far as price goes ,they are up there with the rest of whats built in england and only they have the rigby name

(.333 member)

19/01/13 05:50 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Nice rifle. Speaking of which, why do stockmakers seldom file down the tang and eliminate the need for a groove in the stock? It also has the benefit of allowing a slimmer profile in the critical grip area. I can think of no benefit to keeping the factory profile...what am I missing?

I just noticed a ZKK in .404 Jeffery by Dorleac in the Big Bores Forum that perfectly illustrates my point. The tang is slimmed to allow a slender grip; the end result is superb.

(.375 member)

19/01/13 08:47 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

you will se it on model 70s too , filing it down will changs the profile making for a skinnier grip and not so much a better grip ,,if the rear of the bolt rode up the tang (if it were filed down)to the left or right it would jam ,98 bolts are kind of sloppy and it could happen ....paul

(.416 member)

19/01/13 12:17 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Quote:

it isnt easy to come up with an intermidiate anything let alone an oberndorf,,

Paul,

Just speculating here - but don't your friends at Armeria Concari offer all of the old Mauser configurations? I had their price list some time ago and it was very, very premium priced over any other Mauser action available today, but, I'm guessing that the new Rigbys are among the most premium priced guns and the price might not be an issue for a Rigby client . . .

(.375 member)

19/01/13 02:45 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

mehul,, im not so sure on there priceing thio im sure they arent cheap, but thats a completely in house made action and bottom metal, the problem with rigbys is that they are/where relatively plain rifles from the start not many were overly embellished, could they get 18k for a gun without or just minimal engraving ?? not really easy ,i hope the best for them ....paul

(.333 member)

20/01/13 12:55 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

I thought about that, but I have never seen any mangled stocks, nor mangled tangs from misaligned bolts. In addition, the slot in the stock isn't funneled (at least that I have seen), so it can't gradually lead the bolt into proper alignment if the fit is sloppy.

The small amount of material left at the back of the tang can make a tremendous difference in the appearance and the feel of the grip.

(.400 member)

20/01/13 08:22 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

How much are the "plain" centenary Holland bolt .375s ? best, Mike

(.333 member)

20/01/13 10:38 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

I agree with Carpetsahib comments about the rear tang treatment on the Mauser action.
I have observed that the commercial Oberndorf rifles made prior WW1 have their rear tang slimmed down and polished in the white.
Such an alteration allows a better transition to the grip and in no instance weakens the action or the stock.
We apply that modification to the rifles we build, taking care to bevel the sear-contacting surface of the cocking piece and we have never encountered jamming or mangled stocks.

DORLEAC
www.dorleac-dorleac.com

1911 Oberndorf Mauser rifle

circa 1930 Oberndorf Mauser rifle

D&D Mauser rear tang treatment

(.400 member)

21/01/13 12:02 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Quote:

The rifle is as long as Her Majesty is tall. If she was 5 foot two in her prime, that would be it.

I'm a little puzzled as to how you arrived at this conclusion. From calculations I made as to the overall length of the rifle, based on the announced length of pull of 13.5", the over all length is about 43". That's a far cry from 5'2", or 62".

(.333 member)

21/01/13 06:11 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Precisely my point. I like the way you round the tang, as well as slim it down. The recessed checkering is also very nice. I am going to borrow some of your ideas for my own use!

(.450 member)

21/01/13 06:47 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Quote:

Precisely my point. I like the way you round the tang, as well as slim it down. The recessed checkering is also very nice. I am going to borrow some of your ideas for my own use!

I raised that myself previously.

Quote:

The rifle is as long as Her Majesty is tall. If she was 5 foot two in her prime, that would be it. Looking at the rifle's dimensions I would have expected a shorter length of pull.

Nice rifle.

I dunno about matching her height.

John_Rigby_and_Co

(.224 member)

01/02/13 07:38 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Just a quick update, the Queen's Rifle sold at the SCI auction for $43,000.

Administrator

(.450 member)

10/06/13 09:41 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Wow! Congratulations. I'm just catching up on this thread. What a fine donation that was.

Curl

(.300 member)

18/01/14 08:21 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

The font does not match the font of that period originally used by Rigby. There are punctuation marks missing such as period after Co and St and commas. The two different serial numbers on the receiver are unsightly.
I am disappointed in the selection of the island rear sight base and the contouring of the barrel to fake the effect of a barrel band rear sight base ( which is readily available from Recknagle).
The rear tang of the action can be filed down or inletted in a way to avoid the poorly executed cocking piece clearance cut.
Overall I am not impressed by the design or execution of this rifle. Certainly not fit for a Queen or princess.

(.416 member)

18/01/14 03:01 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

John Rigby
As far as engraving goes in regard to the .275, can you supply more examples of these on the action, floor plate & trigger guard that might have come out on Rigby rifles?
Also as a second note, is it a trick of light or is the engraving on the action "filled" somehow as to stand out from the blueing?
Finally.....yes I'm a nosey bugger, what "process" or chemicals is used to protect the action in the "greying" of an action / parts so that engraving etc is more protected than just straight polished steel?
Cheers
93x64mm

Administrator

(.700 member)

13/08/23 06:38 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

I completely missed this thread from 2012.

Interesting project and the resultant rifle a very nice rifle.

Administrator

(.700 member)

13/08/23 06:57 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Quote:

There are no known photos of the original rifle. We talked to a gentleman that photographed the rifles that belong to royal family. He did not photograph her Rigby. Subsequently, I have discovered in our day books that in addition to H.M The Queen, The Queen Mother and Prince Charles also have Rigby .275s that have come back for service over the years. The Queen Mother and Prince Charles' rifles were not ordered new. H.M. The Queen told Paul Roberts that her rifle is "at Balmoral, still being used by the boys." We assume she meant Princes Harry and William.

Wow. Wonderful.

The Queen Mother's, Prince Charles' rifles "were not ordered new". Second hand? Or more likely off new off the rack?

Wonderful the Queen's rifle is still being used for hunting at Balmoral.

Administrator

(.700 member)

13/08/23 07:11 PM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Btw how to loose gun makers as posters, post lots of quite rude posts. I see the last post on this thread was the second to last post made on our forums.

I wondered about comments during a telephone conversation back then. Politeness doesn't hurt and helps forums. A gun maker doesn't need to post here, just share on their own sites and shows. A gun maker making oodles of sales ten years ago doesnt need to post here. I was encouraging them to do so.

(.275 member)

10/09/23 06:53 AM

Re: The Queen's Rifle

Yeah that was a cool few posts - having John Rigby himself post isn’t what most forums can boast. Shame there were negative comments - the internet always seems to pull out a few arm chair critics that feel the need to show their “expertise” by belittling others’ efforts, regardless of how good they are.

Bringing up an earlier point though:

Quote:

I agree with Carpetsahib comments about the rear tang treatment on the Mauser action.
I have observed that the commercial Oberndorf rifles made prior WW1 have their rear tang slimmed down and polished in the white.
Such an alteration allows a better transition to the grip and in no instance weakens the action or the stock.
We apply that modification to the rifles we build, taking care to bevel the sear-contacting surface of the cocking piece and we have never encountered jamming or mangled stocks.

Dorleac, do you mean this edge? I assume just a small bevel to prevent any hang up on the tang walls?

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