| DPhillips |
| (.375 member) |
| 22/12/06 04:04 PM |
Mannlicher 6.5
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Can someone post a pic of a 6.5 Mannlicher like Bell or Andrews would have used in the early 20th Century?
TIA
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 23/12/06 05:08 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Not exactly what you are looking for, but the hat certainly fits the part.
Would the traditional M-S carbine be the one's they used - as is shown here? Or did they use the normal rifle stocked ones?
Anyone who knows?
| DPhillips |
| (.375 member) |
| 23/12/06 07:43 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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I'm not sure about Bell, but I suspect Andrews probably used the normal stocked version, maybe with a 24" or longer barrel?
The rifle in the photo sure looks interesting, any close up pics?
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 24/12/06 04:14 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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DPh:
Bell's Mannlicher Schoenauer exists today and is in the hands of a collector in the USA.
I have seen photos of it in an article by Don Henry in an American gun magazine,
it even has Bell's 3-digit Nairobi phone number under the trap in the butt!
Unfortunately I would be unable to locate the article in the short term.
You could contact Don, or the Mannlicher Collectors Association, directly with your enquiry.
Might be worth joining, or subscribing to their magazine. Contact details are on their web page:
http://www.mannlicher.org/contact.htm
Don Henry
MCA Co-founder & Executive Editor of 'The Mannlicher Collector'
Post Office Box 7144
Salem, Oregon 97303
Meanwhile, here's about the best photo I could find on the web at short notice:
Sorry 'bout the size, the image is stolen of course!
Note also that it has the 1951 safety, the original was a Mauser-style flag safety on the cocking-piece.
BTW, you can buy Denys Finch-Hatton's 6.5 MS if you've got a lazy $18,000 Australian lying around!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 29/12/06 09:39 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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I don't know what he finished with, but I have read other accounts of Bell using the 6.5x53Rimmed Dutch or Romanian rifle and Full Patch ammo, not the Mann 6.5x54. It also said that it was only modern-type writers who changed that to the 6.5x54Mann. due to their limited knowledge of all the preliferation of 6.5's used in those days.
; So - what's true & what is imagined?
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 29/12/06 12:57 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Damn! Might have to go dig out the article....
Anyone contacted the MCA?
| DPhillips |
| (.375 member) |
| 29/12/06 03:13 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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I read Roy Chapman Andrews' "Across Mongolian Plains" and his only notation about his rifle was 6.5 Mannlicher. I had assumed it was like Bell's, Jamison's, etc... I guess maybe not?
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 30/12/06 05:03 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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As to ballistics, only the 6.5x58 Portugese and 6.5x55Mauser developed higher speeds with the 156gr. full patched bullets. All the rest were pretty much equal, I think, in the 2,350fps range rimmed or rimmless, 52mm to 54mm. The longer cases only added another 100fps or thereabouts.
| pjaln |
| (.375 member) |
| 06/01/07 02:43 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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if anyone wants to see a picture of a 6.5x53R go to vintage doubles.com there is one there that is cased ,i have 2 of these rifles really sleek ,little lighter than my 275.rigby and points real nice both of my guns were built by GIBBS as he built most of them for other retailers also .
ken waters did a page in his " favorite rifles" articles in rifle magazine a few years ago it was a very inforative peice about a roifle that is hardly ever encountered
d phillips what is the serial number and does it begin with "B" .....PAUL
| DPhillips |
| (.375 member) |
| 15/01/07 05:08 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Paul,
I don't have the rifle, and don't have any information about it. I was looking for information about it. What the rifle and cartridge those rifles might have been.
Thanks to all that responded.
Great pics and Thanks!
| Savuti_One_Shot |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/01/07 07:22 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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On one my visits to the Museum of Natural History (about 5 yrs ago) they had quite a good, if temporary display on Andrews. They stated he always carried 2 rifles on expedition. A 6.5 M-S ,the model 1903, and a Savage 99 in 250.
Sounded like a duplication of effort to me. But maybe he was covering the bases for ammo availability, with Euro/english calibers available in some locales and American in others?
SOS
Nearly forgot, I have a 256 Mann sporter by Jeffery which I'd be happy to post a picture of if only I could find a 6 yr old child to assist me.
| dale |
| (.333 member) |
| 25/01/07 08:32 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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You can send them to me and I'd be glad to post the photos or help you post them. I love to see the different rifles.
daleatkins@suddenlink.net
| Savuti_One_Shot |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/01/07 11:36 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Thanks Dale, I'll get some taken and send them to you.
SOS
| dale |
| (.333 member) |
| 31/01/07 02:09 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Pictures for SOS
| pjaln |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/01/07 03:30 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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great looking gun and a step up in looks than the gibbs that i have ...paul
| Savuti_One_Shot |
| (.300 member) |
| 01/02/07 01:20 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Thankyou to Dale for posting the pics for me.
She's a beauty alright. Marked "1897 Steyr"
"Sighted & Finished by W J Jeffery & Co 15 King St, St James London"
"MAXM 37 GRS RIFLEITE"
26" barrel and 13 3/4" pull.
I had the Fr sight replaced and bolt face erosion repaired. A prior owner refinished the wood and metal.
SOS
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 02/02/07 09:50 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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That Steyr is a beautiful rifle. WOW!
: Corbin Shell needs to see this.
| 1980E26 |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/02/07 10:37 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Pete, (SOS)
Please contact me.
Corbin Shell
corbinshell@mindspring.com
| 1980E26 |
| (.300 member) |
| 02/02/07 10:39 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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SOS,
You have a very nice Dutch Sporter. A shame that the bolt face has been machined. How much did it change the headspace?
| Savuti_One_Shot |
| (.300 member) |
| 03/02/07 01:46 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Headspace was unaffected. The 'smith drilled out the affected area. threaded and installed a bushing. The English term would be disc set striker. He said it's a routine procedure on older rifles.
SOS
| Collath_500BPE |
| (.300 member) |
| 06/02/07 09:28 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Hi DPhillips,
here is the answer for you.The pics are showing an original
Mannlicher in 6,5x53R without any further modification since 1898 whin the rifle was biult.
regards Johann from Austria
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 07/02/07 12:26 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Look guys, this is all very well, the Dutch or Romanian Steyr-Mannlicher makes up
into a marvellous 'vintage' sporter, but it was NOT used by WDM Bell!
He used a Mannlicher Schoenauer!
Along with Steffanson, Lyell, Pease, Percival, Fynch-Hatton, Andrews, Selous, Stigand,
Vanderbyl, etc, etc, etc....
DarylS's earlier post has finally got me off my butt to find the magazine article
with colour pictures of Bell's 6.5mm Mannlicher Schoenauer. Alas, the magazines are
boxed-up since our move almost 2 years ago, but I did find a B&W photocopy.
The quality is poor, apologies, but it does show the 1903 carbine clearly, complete with
cocking-piece peep-sight, Bell's Nairobi phone number stamped into the butt-trap (No. 714),
and the proud owner at the time Mr Mike Hill.
The article was called "The Mannlicher Schoenauer: Evolution of a Sporting Rifle" by Don Henry,
Australian Shooters Journal (2-part series) Part 2 December 1991.
It sure took some finding! I reckon you all owe me a beer!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 07/02/07 03:43 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Marrakai - thanks for posting the picture and writeup. Now, I know. I hate it when conflicting info comes in from different sources, each claming to be the truth.
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 07/02/07 02:11 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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No worries, Daryl.
My only 'pet hate' is people who perpetuate mis-information or opinion as bold statements
of fact, and then get 'uppity' when evidence is presented to the contrary.
Nothing wrong with polite enquiry, how else are we to learn?
I regret not having had the time to dig out that article in the first place,
but then we might have missed the marvellous Steyr photos from Dale and Collath!
| Collath_500BPE |
| (.300 member) |
| 08/02/07 05:32 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Hi Marrakai, Daryl S and DPhillips,
I want to apologize myself to the above mentioned Gentlemen if I created some high blood pressure posting the 6,5x53R Mannlicher 1898.
Here is the explaination :
According to the Austrian hunting school lessons we have a differnt ways of talking about Mannlicher hunting rifles.
A Mannlicher in 6,5 caliber is everytime for us a 6,5x53R and a Mannlicher Stutzen ( full stock )in 6,5 is for all of us hunter in Europe a 6,5x54 M.Sch.
Marrakai the beer is already cooled down for you.You are welcome at any time in my home.
But if I find time when I am retired we can take some beers together in Australia during a hunting trip with you.I plan it for 2010.
My grandfather ordered in 1900 also a o/u gun in 6,5x53R and 16GA and a M.Sch.in 6,5x54 M.Sch.as posted.
Exuses to all and regards Johann
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 08/02/07 07:23 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Collath:
Thanks for the explanation of Mannlicher nomenclature in your part of the world. Learn something new every day.
BTW, any suggestion of high blood pressure is simply a ruse to draw-out more photos of fine guns!
Looks like it worked!
Keep 'em coming.
A cold ale in 2010 is already pencilled-in.
| Collath_500BPE |
| (.300 member) |
| 09/02/07 12:29 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Marrakai,
thanks for answering.But by the way you prommised me a view weeks ago to contact your friend and owner of an original
M.Sch.in 10,75x68 ( Darwin )If you can spend a minute to call him and ask for some photos I would be very gratefully.
thanks in advance Johann
| dale |
| (.333 member) |
| 19/02/07 09:37 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Gentlemen,
I posting a few more pictures for SOS
some really fantastic rifles, Peter.
| Savuti_One_Shot |
| (.300 member) |
| 19/02/07 09:48 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Thanks again to Dale.
A (nearly) matched pair of takedowns. The upper is a 1910 9.5x56 (375 Exp) and the lower is a 1903 6.5x54.
Both have pop-up tang sights and British proofs though no indication of British maker's mark. The 375 is all original but some yahoo in the past cut the stock on the 1903 and then added a spacer.
Hope I'm now forgiven for polluting this thread with pics of a 6.5x53R.
SOS
| Webleyboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 07/04/07 06:45 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Hi all, interesting thread.
Just got my lovely Daniel Fraser Steyr 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur (pic above). It is fitted with a Schmidt & Bender 6x42 telescopic sight in quick detachable mounts however the receiver and barrel are fitted with the bases for a Fraser patent telescopic sight mount. Does anyone have any information on this mount?
Now that I have my dream rifle I want to reload for it and take it out stalking. To keep the MV & ME deer legal in England, I need to use bullets of between 120 and 140 grains, not unfortunately the 160 grain round nose bullet much loved by the Victorian hunters.
I like to use Vit powder in most of my rifle loads but cannot find any data for the 6.5 x 54 MS in their loading manual. Does anyone out there have any pet loads for this calibre using vit powder and lighter bullets?
Regards
Webley-boy
| 333_okh |
| (.275 member) |
| 16/04/07 02:28 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Bell started with a straight magazine Dutch type 6.5X53R that he much preferred to the MS and the bullets used in the 6.5X54. The 6.5 he mostly speaks of was actually one of the 1897 versions reworked in England. He later went to the MS and was not impressed due to ammunition failured both to fire and to penetrate. I have a letter that was written o nthe subject by him that I will need to dig out for you guys to read. Poor quality litho copy, but it gets the point across great.
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 28/04/07 08:43 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Sure would like to see that letter, 333, regardless of quality. I hope you can find it.
BTW Collath, photos of the Darwin 10.75x68 MS are now in my possession, but I need to clarify a couple of points with the owner before posting. Stand by...!
| MAMBO_NYALA |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/06/10 12:06 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Selous actually used the 6.5 x 53R, or Dutch Mannlicher. His rifle is now owned by Roger Whittall of Humani in the Save Valley Conservancy, Zimbabwe. Prior to his leaving Rhodesia, Selous gave it to Whittall's grandfather. I had an oppotunity to handle the rifle when I hunted there in 2006. I have some photographs of the rifle if there are any interested parties.
EDITED BY CPTCURL TO POST THE PHOTOS:
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 23/06/10 08:16 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Please do post the photos. I would really like to see that rifle.
Curl
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 24/06/10 09:00 PM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Mambo_Nyala,
Thanks for sending the photos. I edited your post to include them. Maybe you can post again to add some background and history to this rifle.
Thanks,
Curl
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/06/10 03:30 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Marrakai, you are both right and wrong on Bell's Mannlicher! Bell owned at least two Mannlichers. Let's go back to the roots. To quote W.D.M.Bell's book "Karamojo Safari", Prologue:
"In the course of time I acquired a long-barreled .256 Mannlicher, stocked and sighted (iron sights, but extremely refined) by Gibbs of Bristol. I did not use this rifle on elephant; I don't know why unless it was that I had only soft-nosed bullets. It was not until later that I got a .256 Mannlicher-Schonauer and used it on elephant. I used the long Gibbs -a most beautiful rifle- entirely for meat-getting. And what a deadly weapon it was!....Just to give an idea of this sort of thing, the donkey headman demands four hundred skins for donkey saddles…..This particular trouble was generally cured by nine or ten giraffe; failing them, a score or so of zebra or, more rarely, by a dozen buffalo. That Gibbs certainly had a full-time job to do. I don't think that even now a better rifle could be found for that particular work." (end of quote)
As Gibbs had a very distinctive style, quite different from Jeffery's, Bell's Gibbs "Old model .256 Mannlicher" probably looked like this one of 1899 vintage, marked "G.Gibbs, Bristol"
Only later, "As prosperity descended upon me," Bell obtained a "very refined little Mannlicher-Schoenauer .256 with a goodly store of solids" from Fraser of Edinburgh. He rarely used this rifle because the ammo of Austrian make, Roth or Hirtenberger, was unreliable. This is likely the M-S carbine shown above.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 28/06/10 06:03 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Quote:
Selous actually used the 6.5 x 53R, or Dutch Mannlicher. His rifle is now owned by Roger Whittall of Humani in the Save Valley Conservancy, Zimbabwe. Prior to his leaving Rhodesia, Selous gave it to Whittall's grandfather. I had an oppotunity to handle the rifle when I hunted there in 2006. I have some photographs of the rifle if there are any interested parties.
EDITED BY CPTCURL TO POST THE PHOTOS:
BTW this rifle also seems to be a Gibbs - Mannlicher. Gibbs made up such rifles for retail by other gunmakers too. You may also identify a G.Gibbs Mannlicher or Mannlicher-Schoenauer by a B-prefix serial number.
| BillfromOregon |
| (.333 member) |
| 05/03/20 01:58 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Another wonderful old Mannlicher thread that deserves to see daylight again!
| DarylS |
| (.700 member) |
| 05/03/20 05:10 AM |
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Re: Mannlicher 6.5
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Yes - I was just wondering if Webley Boy found loads for his 6.5x54 Stutzen. I was going to suggest starting loads for the 6.5x55 would work.