| awanderingbear |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/05/14 02:41 AM |
Made in Germany
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I have recently joined this Forum, and perhaps my inquiry has been dealt with previously? I have not found it specifically mentioned in the researching of older Posts (it might be there, I wasn't able to find it if it was?).
I have been around Mannlicher Schoenauer/Steyr carbines and rifles since the late 1970's, having had upwards of from twelve to twenty at one given time. In the 1990's I thinned down my accumulation of M-S firearms to other collectors, though retained the first carbine I'd bought, a Made in Germany Model 1903 6.5x54mm, proofed in .39, along with two other Model 1903's. Since then a few of others have found a home with me! Once they get in your blood...
My first Model 1903 carbine is marked on top of the front ring of the action Made in Germany. I am familiar with Germany forming a union with Austria in 1938 and thereafter M-S/Steyr carbines/rifles were marked Made in Germany from 1938-1945.
Made in Germany marked carbines/rifles, at least in the United States, are rather rare to find, or so it has been my experience. Granted, directly after 1938 the factory was most likely involved with producing other products than sporting rifles for the general public or export, so production may have been limited?
Hopefully members will share information/knowledge and their experiences regarding: Made in Germany marked firearms. Such as: are they very common in Europe (probably more so than in the US), or are they also difficult to find? Other discussion is most welcome as well.
best of regards,
awanderingbear
| lancaster |
| (.470 member) |
| 22/05/14 03:40 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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I would think that up to 1942 sporting rifle fabrication at the Steyr factory was at pre war level
| HistoricBore |
| (.300 member) |
| 22/05/14 08:16 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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I only have one Mannlicher - Schoenauer rifle, which is a 1903 6.5 x 54 carbine with set triggers made in the late 1930s. Mine is also clearly marked 'Made in Germany'. I have not taken the woodwork apart to check the original proof marks.
However mine is Serial number 25,6xx . What other serial numbers are there out there for other 'Made in Germany' rifles?
HB
| awanderingbear |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/05/14 04:08 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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lancaster: makes sense, the closer to 1942 the fewer sporting rifles were being produced.
A shame factory records 'went somewhere' during or after the war. Which is another reason for M-S enthusiasts to work together to help gather information on them. No, I'm not on some major crusade here, but interested in the Made in Germany marked rifles. A small piece of the M-S history pie!
HistoricBore: the Made in Germany, proofed .39 I have is S/N 25,2xx. Quite likely you'll find a .39 on your rifle? Thank you for sharing.
It would be appreciated if others would share in on this query of Made in Germany marked M-S's.
It's how we learn more of the history of Mannlicher Schoenauer firearms - it's called sharing.
If I've made enough Posts in the Forum, or what it takes to post pictures, will post some of the Made in Germany Model 1903 I've provided a home for since 1977.
At the 1998 Mannlicher Collector's Association banquet held in western Washington, over dinner I spoke with Don Henry (founder and President of the MCA) and he commented that in all of his years of collecting and researching M-S rifles, including trips to Europe and the Steyr factory, he had seen maybe 11 rifles marked Made in Germany. In Alaska and the Pacific Northwestern states of the United States, since 1977, I have seen 3 such marked rifles. Of course there's more out there, though we may never know how many, but with the help of some folks in the Forum here, we might all learn more about them and maybe get a better feel on how many might have been made... thank you
NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 22/05/14 05:06 PM |
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Quote:
If I've made enough Posts in the Forum, or what it takes to post pictures, will post some of the Made in Germany Model 1903 I've provided a home for since 1977.
Anyone can post photos. You need to use a third party site, photo hosting account, your own net account etc to load up the gif or jpg files and then post the web address on here with the image code to display them. There are threads as stickies and in the help forum to help explain how if you need help.
| awanderingbear |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/05/14 03:38 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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x
| awanderingbear |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/05/14 03:40 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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| awanderingbear |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/05/14 03:50 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Mannlicher Schoenauer
Model 1903
6.5x54mm
Scope mount: unknown maker
Scope: Sirius 4x, German #1 reticle
1. front ring of action, marked Made in Germany
2. left side view of Model 1903 carbine
3. left side close-up view of scope mount and scope
Thank you NitroX
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 23/05/14 03:38 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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In photobucket there is a number of options to the right of the photo. One is called "Direct". Click on it and it copies the code for you. Simply paste it into the forums page. It has URL and IMG in its code and these seem to work fine as shown above.
| chapmen |
| (.300 member) |
| 23/05/14 05:19 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Looks like the typical "AKAH" side mount. Is it DRGM stamped?
| awanderingbear |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/05/14 12:51 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Presently I am 1,200 miles away from this carbine, so not able to verify the initials on the mount. I will be back to it in two months time.
Perhaps an "AKAH" mount? I do like this mount: very solid and returns to zero when removed then reattached. I have one Model 1903 with Jaeger (US made) mounts, which are similar, they also work well for a return to zero when reattached.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 21/01/15 05:10 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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I'm new to the forum and was just reading some of the older post when I found this one. I have a "MADE IN GERMANY' Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5 x 57 with a claw mount and Made in Germany B. Nickel scope. It still has the cleaning rod in the buttplate. It was brought back after WWII by a G.I. who never shot it because he couldn't find any ammo, or so I was told. I have pictures if I can figure how to up load them.
| A10ACN |
| (.300 member) |
| 21/01/15 11:19 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Quote:
I'm new to the forum and was just reading some of the older post when I found this one. I have a "MADE IN GERMANY' Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5 x 57 with a claw mount and Made in Germany B. Nickel scope. It still has the cleaning rod in the buttplate. It was brought back after WWII by a G.I. who never shot it because he couldn't find any ammo, or so I was told. I have pictures if I can figure how to up load them.
Bit of strangeness in this. M/S were made in Austria and chambered in 6.5x54. Why don't you repost this as a separate post with pics and we can determine what you have.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/01/15 03:37 AM |
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I'm trying to open an account with photobucket but it's not showing me a code to type in the box.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 22/01/15 08:24 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Quote:
Bit of strangeness in this. M/S were made in Austria
Not strange at all. From March 12, 1938, the Anschluss = annexation of Austria by Hitler's Grossdeutschland til the end of WW2 in 1945, Austria and the Steyr City were a part of Germany called the Ostmark. So all goods made during those years were marked "Made in Germany" and bear German proofmarks.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 22/01/15 01:16 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 23/01/15 07:53 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Kuduae, when you say they all bear German proof marks, were they still proof marked "NPv" Or were Steyr given a special German mark like a stag's antler and etc., used by German proof houses?
Also, I'm thinking particularly of existing inventory on-hand from before the Anschluss, would this be over-stamped afterwards and have 2 sets of marks? I'm just wondering how it all worked in practise.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 23/01/15 10:26 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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It does have some proof marks on the barrel right above the stock, I'll look tomorrow and see what they are.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 23/01/15 10:44 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Quote:
Kuduae, when you say they all bear German proof marks, were they still proof marked "NPv" Or were Steyr given a special German mark like a stag's antler and etc., used by German proof houses?
Also, I'm thinking particularly of existing inventory on-hand from before the Anschluss, would this be over-stamped afterwards and have 2 sets of marks? I'm just wondering how it all worked in practise.
First, from 1938 to 1940, many had the Austrian, Vienna proofhouse NPv proofs. There was no need to overstamp them, as Austrian proofmarks were then valid in Germany too. From 1940 on the new German proof law applied too, so there had to be the spread eagle/N mark, the proof date and the proofhouse mark. The Vienna proofhouse with it's Steyr branch used the arms of Vienna City, a shield with a cross inside.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/01/15 03:14 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Here's a picture of the proof stamp.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 24/01/15 03:17 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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The receiver stamp.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/01/15 02:57 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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The rifle still has the Austrian Vienna proof marks. The two-headed Austrian eagle with a 2 for Vienna on chest but without the "republican" hammer & sickle in claws was used from 1938 to March 1940 only as the primary proofmark. This dates the rifle to 1939 +/- a few months. The NPv is still the Vienna Nitro proof mark. Besides these two marks there should be the year of proof marked too, as 39., maybe covered by the wood. The inscription "Waffenfabrik Steyr" is unusual too, as it was used after the "Anschluss" 1938 only. Since 1934 the official name of the combine was "Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG", but the M-Sch rifles were still marked with the familiar old name "Oesterr.Waffenfabr.-Ges.Steyr" = "Austrian Arms Factory Company Steyr". My .37 proofed M-Sch m1910 is still marked such, as is my .34 m1925. After the "Anschluss" they not only marked their rifles "Made in Germany", but left off the hint to past Oesterreich = Austria.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 25/01/15 05:04 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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The serial number is 52xx and matches on the barrel and receiver. If that helps date it?
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/01/15 06:43 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Quote:
The serial number is 52xx and matches on the barrel and receiver. If that helps date it?
No. As I wrote above, the inscriptions and the proof mark eagle alone date the rifle to 2 years in total: from April 1938 to March 1940. So it was most likely made in 1939. If you want to get even closer, take the rifle apart and look for the proof date, either .38 or .39 or .40. Steyr serial numbers are hardly usable for dating, as the Steyr files reside now in some Russian archive. Further, Steyr restarted each model with it's own serial number range, models 1903, 1905, 1908, 1910, 1924, 1925, 1950 all starting with #1 over again. Let alone the Greek Military M-Schs!
| Kiwi_bloke |
| (.333 member) |
| 25/01/15 04:45 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Very helpful, thanks.
| Bagboy |
| (.224 member) |
| 25/01/15 06:55 PM |
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Thanks for the information, I appreciate it.
| MRobinson |
| (.275 member) |
| 29/06/16 11:47 AM |
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I have one of these "Made in Germany" Mannlicher-Schoenauer M1903s.
No small irony that "Made in Germany" was roll-marked in English on the receiver ring, even in the midst of WWII!
Mine is SN 25,7xx and was made in 1944. Not much of WWII was left for Steyr at that time.
Steyr was taken by US and Soviet troops, who met on the bridge over the Enns River, on 9 May 1945.
I sometimes wonder if mine might be the last M1903 ever made.
| MRobinson |
| (.275 member) |
| 12/07/16 07:46 AM |
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Well I found one with a SN about 50 numbers later than mine.
Reportedly made as a presentation piece for Gen. Mark Clark of the U.S. Army when he was CIC of U.S forces in Austria, in 1945.
This would seem to indicate that 1903s were made by Steyr at least through 1945.
| MRobinson |
| (.275 member) |
| 19/07/16 03:04 PM |
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Interesting information on Steyr history and Gen. Clark:
"After the war the resumption of civil production was attempted but failed, however, due to the enormous air-raid-damage, the dismantling of the works by the Russian occupying forces in 1945, and by armaments production restrictions imposed by the Allied powers similar to those imposed in the period after 1918. It wasn’t until 1950 that Steyr was able to start producing hunting rifles with the approval of the US high-commissioner, General Mark Clark. With production again allowed, Steyr began to manufactured the well-known Mannlicher-Schönauer hunting carbines and small-bore rifles anew."
| lonewulf |
| (.300 member) |
| 19/07/16 09:54 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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The only really weird aspect of all of this is the use of English script in the MADE IN GERMANY legend. While this would suggest such rifles were destined for export to countries in the British Empire and the US, it seems hard to understand why an English script would be used after the US entered the War on the side of the allies in 1941. Why would the German authorities stamp MADE IN GERMANY on an M-S rifle post 1941, assuming there actually were M-S sporting rifles being built post '41?
| MRobinson |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/07/16 02:51 AM |
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Agreed, and there absolutely were M-S sporting rifles being built by Steyr post-1941. As noted above, I have one marked "Made in Germany" that was produced in 1944.
Here's more on the Clark M-S. I wonder if this one was the last 1903 ever made?
"Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1903 Carbine. Cal. 6.5 Norm. (6.5X54). SN 25766. Beautiful little carbine with 18 inch tapered rnd bbl, ramp mounted, dovetailed front sight with German silver blade and 2-leaf express rear sight. It has dbl set triggers and the trigger bow is inlaid in heavy gold block letters “MWC”. Mounted in extra finish, very highly figured French walnut with full length stock that has raised side panels and checkered forestock with checkered pistol grip that has what appears to be a tortoise shell grip cap. Buttstock has a European cheekpiece and serrated steel buttplate with trap containing a 4-pc brass & steel cleaning rod and two other empty holes. Forestock has a sling loop with corresponding loop in the buttstock. Undoubtedly this was presented to Gen. Clark when he was the U.S. High Commissioner of Austria."
| MRobinson |
| (.275 member) |
| 21/07/16 02:50 AM |
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By the way, what I don't know about this rifle is how it was roll-stamped on the top of the receiver ring.
"Made in Germany" is possible, but the rifle was certainly presented, and possibly made, well after the cessation of hostilities. And it was being given to an American general.
It would be interesting indeed if Steyr changed from stamping 1903s with "Made in Austria" during the period before the Anschluss in 1938, to "Made in Germany" afterwards until the end of the war in 1945, and then back to "Made in Austria" for the (one would think) relatively few they made until production stopped!
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 21/07/16 03:49 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Quote:
The only really weird aspect of all of this is the use of English script in the MADE IN GERMANY legend. While this would suggest such rifles were destined for export to countries in the British Empire and the US, it seems hard to understand why an English script would be used after the US entered the War on the side of the allies in 1941. Why would the German authorities stamp MADE IN GERMANY on an M-S rifle post 1941, assuming there actually were M-S sporting rifles being built post '41?
The label "Made in Germany" was originally introduced in Britain by the Merchandise Marks Act 1887 to denounce non-British products as "inferior". But the idea backfired: Soon "Made in Germany" was regarded as a mark of superior quality in the international markets. German manufacturers proudly applied it not only on wares destined for English speaking countries, but on those for domestic and world wide markets too. Simply there never was a German language synonym. So during WW2 Austrian products were marked "Made in Germany" too, regardless of destination. After WW2 there was some dispute about East German products marked with the prestigious "Made in Germany". The West German federal high courts then ruled: As the GDR is in Germany too, their wares have the right to mark their products so too. Only then some manufacturers started to mark their wares "Made in West Germany" or, even later "Made in GDR". One exception: Some pre-WW1 Suhl made guns were marked "Made in Prussia" instead of the more generic "Made in Germany". This was meant to distinguish the "high grade" guns made in Suhl, Prussia, from the ones made by the cheapos in near by Zella – Mehlis, Duchy Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Similar to British guns with a London address being more regarded than those marked Birmingham.
| lonewulf |
| (.300 member) |
| 21/07/16 08:15 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Good explanation. Thank you.
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 24/10/16 02:59 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Dear All
I would like to share with you photos of my recently acquired Mannlicher Schoenauer M.1924, which was imported from Austria. The rifle is in caliber 7x64 and is fitted with a Bohler Antinit barrel, a stock with an adjustable cheek piece, and a Swarowski Habicht Nova 6x42 rifle scope.
This rifle is a ‘Made in Germany’ model, bearing at the same time the ‘NPv’ Vienna Proof House 1928 marks (the rifle may have been produced in 1928 and subsequently remained in factory as stock) and the 1939 (‘.39’) mark. The inner face of the barrel also bears a marking consisting in an overlapping E and V (according to online information, this is the Vienna proof mark for multi-barrelled rifles since 1891), which I never saw on any of the pre-1924 rifles I handled previously.
The left side of the action bears the marking ‘Waffenfabrik Steyr’, the post-Anschluss version of the ‘Steyr Werke A.G.’ that prevailed from 1927 to 1938.
The stock has an adjustable cheek piece and the butt is the standard steel plate with trap one.
The rifle is fitted with a Swarowski Habicht Nova 6x42 mounted with German claw-mounts.
This rifle is in really mint condition ; I now need to test it on the range before taking it out for hunting.
Best regards.
Louis
| Waidmannsheil |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/10/16 06:06 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Absolutely superb, what a lovely looking rifle. Very well done, it will be a joy to hunt with.
Waidmannsheil.
| kuduae |
| (.400 member) |
| 24/10/16 07:41 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Quote:
This rifle is a ‘Made in Germany’ model, bearing at the same time the ‘NPv’ Vienna Proof House 1928 marks (the rifle may have been produced in 1928 and subsequently remained in factory as stock) and the 1939 (‘.39’) mark.
The combination of "Made in Germany" and Austrian NPv or NPf proofmarks is not unusual. In fact this alone dates a gun to 1938 – 39. After Austria was annected (with much applause by many Austrians, a fact now forgotten by them) by the 3rd Reich on March 12, 1938, not everything changed immediately. A new German proof law was already worked on. So the former Austrian proofhouses, Vienna and Ferlach, continued to use their procedures and stamps until the new, 1939 law, proof rules became valid on April 1, 1940. The .39 date was not applied by the Steyr factory, but by the proofhouse. Only from then on guns made in former Austria were marked with the German eagle/N proofmarks and the German month+year dates. So your rifle was not sitting in stock, already proofed, since the 1920s, but was assembled and proofed in 1939.
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 24/10/16 08:36 PM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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Thank you very much Waidmannsheil and Kuduae.
Best regards.
Louis
| casper50 |
| (.400 member) |
| 25/10/16 03:20 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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does someone sell the adjustable cheekpiece mechanism?
| lonewulf |
| (.300 member) |
| 25/10/16 01:05 PM |
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Lovely example. A rifle like that really enhances the hunting experience.
| BrittanyMan |
| (.224 member) |
| 26/10/16 01:09 AM |
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Louis,
Outstanding M/S. The perfect rifle & scope combination for use from a Hoch Sitz.
| HistoricBore |
| (.300 member) |
| 26/10/16 05:43 AM |
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Re: Made in Germany
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My 'Made in Germany' M-Sch. 1903 is serial number 25,68x and I believe was 'liberated' or even bought new(?) by a British officer. I have never taken the woodwork apart to look for the proof marks....
| Louis |
| (.375 member) |
| 27/10/16 05:33 PM |
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Casper 50, I don't know of anybody selling such a cheek piece mechanism.
Lonewulf, BrittanyMan & Historic Bore, thank you for your replies.
Regards.
Louis