| DUGABOY1 |
| (.400 member) |
| 12/04/11 12:31 AM |
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Re: Is the 500/416 dead?
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………………………………...............................THEN AND NOW!
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470 - I am very much aware of the difference in pressure generated between the old, virtually obsolete DR rounds and the more modern bolt action rounds. Have been since 1968 when I started loading and making a study of rifle and ctg. ballistics.
My point was the .500/416 is a low pressure round designed for the old school DR shooter - and as such, it is surprising it didn't become more popular than it has - amongst the low pressure DR crowd, that is. Seems to me, that's pretty much what my first post said initially.
Daryl, I doubt most of the users of double rifles in the cordite days really understood the pressures generated in their rifles. IMO they certainly would have noticed that their rifle didn’t shoot as well when hot, or tended to make them hard to open on occasion. However since the only thing they had to go by was CORDITE vs Black powder. Today we know far more than the average big game hunter (read poacher in many, or most cases) who depended totally on factory ammo, and simply accepted the factory as sometimes not well loaded. They may have simply thought the ammo batch was bad
and not consistent.
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High pressure rounds rare in a DR? - yes, I guess, but still there sometimes - seems to me I've seen Rigby's or maybe W.Richards DR's for sale, chambered for the .375H&H (not the low pressure flanged version). Now, the .375H&H a 60,000psi range ctg. with a .532" rim and the .458 Win Mag. same rim diameter, but lower pressure, but still a firm 55,000psi round, I think. I wonder about a cordite round that produced 40,000
psi 'at home' then fired in rifle which was originally regulated in Merry old damp England, but after being carried in "the front of a shirt pocket" or ctg. loop was then thrust into a blued/blacked rifle that had been carried in the 120F heat under a blazing sun, barrels so hot they couldn't be touched, let alone held.
How much pressure did that cordite loaded round produce?
The above is true, but rarely, if ever chambered for those rounds before the ammo for the old double rifle ammo started getting hard to come by, and even though they were before the best powders we have today, the powders they did have were far less effected by temperature than cordite!
I could be wrong, but I don’t think you will find a double rifle chambered for the 375 H&H belated/rimless round before the classic double rifle became hard to come by, before that I would bet 99% if not 100% were chambered for the H&H 375 flanged. The 458 Win Mag wasn’t even introduced till the mid 1950s
I believe the main objection to the cartridges you mention today is, the lack of a flange, more than pressure. The rifles that are chambered for the 375H&H, and the 458 Win Mag were made strong enough to handle these chamberings. The cordite rounds that went through the roof in the heat and did some damage that showed up over time I’m quite sure. However what choices did the shooter of the day have?
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Did anything happen to the regulation, so painstakenly adjusted for bullet weight, pressure, velocity and recoil at 60F - maybe 70F or perhaps 55F or even colder - what time of year were the barrels regulated? - how did that round so carefully regulated shoot, after being bounced up in pressure an incredible amount by the heat of the sun and sitting in the tubes (or even freshout of the pocket - almost instantly taking on the temp of the tubes) - how did it shoot, accuracy wise?
Care to guess how much pressure those guns are actually handling or have handled, shot after shot?
We all know why those old ctgs. were loaded a low a pressure. It was because of African heat & cordite.
What about using modern powders that are not heat sensitive at all - or at least very much less senstive.
Thus, the .375H&H and .458's become viable DR ctgs. as they did or have.
Again as most will testify the main objection to those cartridges today is not pressure but the lack of a flanged case, and problems with most double rifles so chambered having to be loaded one barrel at a time, and/or worries about reliable extraction/ejection, more than pressure.
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Incidently, the Hodgdon Extreme (ADI) powders, perhaps the least heat/cold sensitive that are avilable, are fairly recent additions to those available, yet the .375H&H and .458 mags pre-date those 'best' powders. This says modern DR's can be chambered easily for more efficient rounds, that develope slightly better ballistics than the old ones - is all- which of course, has nothing to do with this thread.
edited to correct this spelling mistake:(not the low pressure flanged version).
The above is very true that balisticly these rounds may be more efficient, but they are not as reliable in other ways. These two cartridges are best kept in bolt action rifles! The worry is not if they will fail to extract/eject from a double rifle , but when they will fail!
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Daryl,
I know you have a wealth of experience in many types of firearms, reloading, shooting, hunting, gunsmithing etc, and I do have a lot of respect for your exp and knowledge in those fields, but out of interest, can I ask how much experience you have regarding loading Flanged Nitro Express cartridges, and shooting /hunting with them in Nitro Express Double Rifles?
I would like to know that as well! The fact is the 500/416 has never been chambered in an old rifle, and IMO the rifles it is chambered in are strong enough to handle them quite nicely. That being said it is the flange that makes it a proper double rifle round.
Again IMO, the .416 caliber has never been popular with double rifle people, and this cartridge even less so. The 500/416 K is alive but in serious danger of going the way of the DoDo!