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JPk.

Ripp,

I have not hunted Botswana bulls, but PH's I know have. They find no difference between big bulls any where. And Botswana bulls are not the largest, I've been told, the largest come from Kruger/Ghona Rhe Zhou. Perhaps the best example is Ivan Carter, who hunts quite a bit in Botswana and uses a 450NE 3 1/4" Heym. Ivan is still in love with his rifle; that would not be the case if it didn't provide the penetration required, or the stopping power required. Ivan likes to get close, and for non target bulls, has been know to approach until he can wrap the bull with the butt of his rifle. That is a man with (over?) confidence in his read of elephants and in his rifle too, eh?

Rather than a couple of guys with only the experience of a couple of hundred eles, matched in aggragate here on this forum, I'd rather rely on Richard Harlan and Ron Thomson, who between them killed roughly 9,000 elephants. They shot all manner of elephants from the huge Gona-Rhe-Zhou bulls to cows to youngsters. They used the 458wm with factory loads to do this. Neither reports any problem, ever, with their 458wm load performance. They used Winchester factory loads, which are beat by the 450NE.

If it were my choice, I'd stick with the 470 and use the savings on another bull quota. If the itch was just too bad, I'd go and get the 500.

BTW, for any of the frontal brain shots I've made or tried, if you were to expand the penetration required to brain the elephant by 50%, the results would still be the same, full penetration of the brain cavity and into the neck. For side Brain shots, I don't know since every one - except one that failed to penetrate at all - exited, but one.

JPK

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Man--have to admit---love this thread...

Most of the people you mentioned, I have actually met---Harland lives 2 blocks down from Lynn the PH I discussed--Ivan and I hung around a bit together last year at the SCI show in Reno...by the way, I had to laugh a bit on the Boddington Elephant DVD..as in how Ivan got that gun..per Ivan to my very ears, that was a GIFT by one of his clients as a "tip"...not that is a heck of a gift..



Agree with what you stated in regards to penetration, have not done the tests myself, but by what I have read, it is suggested the 450 and 465 actually do a bit better job than the 470 as to penetration...believe Taylor states that as well..

Have not made up my mind on anything..checking out my options...do agree with the post above however, not to beat a dead horse, but could not sleep last night, so at 2AM was reading Taylors book..he did state in his opinion, for thick or thin skinned game, he can find no better choice than the .416....so he does add some credence to the whole equation..personally one of my .416's has followed me on 4 trips so far..and God willing, it will come along again..BUT, if I am out soley for elephant..will keep looking for other options...more guns is good..
However do agree, makes more sense to take the $$ and buy another tag..



Thank you for your info...as I mentioned, you have shot more elephants than anyone I know other than Boddington, Carter, etc...so really do appreciate your input and advice..

Merry Christmas to all

Ripp