(.300 member)

26/04/06 11:15 PM

GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

This will probably provoke some derogotary comments but I believe that had the second World War not commenced when it did, the germans would have taken over from the big british gunmakers in the production and sale of double rifles. They were cheaper and very very attractive hunting arms. Prior to responding take some time to search the web or physically viewing some of the guns made in the 1930/40s. Absolutley magnificent in presentaion, high relief engraving the norm rather than the order, high tolerances etc. Cartridges produced were usually duplicated mm to inch such as 10.75 x 68 to .425Westley Richards and there are several others. Not always copies of current english cartridges, sometimes the other way around.
No, I am not of german origin, yes, I have owned several british doubles and unfortunately only fired/borrowed some beautiful german doubles and owned a few drillings and combination guns and single shots. (wish i still had them)
cheers

400NitroExpress

(.400 member)

27/04/06 06:00 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

If the Germans were ever to catch up to the British it would have happened long before WWII. A great many German makers built double rifles in those days. You have to remember that driven game shooting has always been more common there than in Britain. I've handled a great many of the pre-war German double rifles over the years - dozens of names - Merkel, FW Heym, Simson, Bock, Sauer, Geyger, Schwimy, Foerster, etc. Some of the workmanship was to a very high standard, but style was usually heavily Teutonic. Yes, some of the engraving is incredible, but so is some of the British.

Like the British, the Germans largely held to their own specific "formula" for their sxs double rifles, and still do. They've always favored very slender actions. Since most of their double rifles were intended for the driven game of western and central Europe, most were medium bores, and the slender profile worked OK for these. However, the heavy caliber rifles had to have very little profile to the barrels to get the weight up to a reasonable level, resulting in a finished rifle that swung like a post. I've encountered a few refreshing exceptions along the way, but they're rare. The British used larger actions and more barrel profile, which put more weight between the hands and improved handling dramatically. I believe that this is partly why the British dominated the large bore double rifle market for the duration.

I remember the first large bore German DR I ever handled - a Merkel boxlock .500/.465 from the '30s. I hadn't owned a double rifle yet then, and was looking at everything with an open mind. The workmanship was high quality, and the Teutonic flavor unusually subdued. It was a lovely rifle in high condition. I remember describing it to a friend as the first "bull barreled" double rifle I had ever seen and would still describe it that way today. It handled like a brick.
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(.300 member)

27/04/06 06:07 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

I am german( so much as possible) and think if you look at cartridges some of german developments like the 9,3x64 and the 10,75x68 are the best ever designed.
The british gunmakers build allways fine double rifles but the actions coming from the 19.century. There is nothing new under the sun and you cant invent the bicycle a second time but new ideas and new actions come fom Suhl in this time.
British gunmaker live from the work and the ideas of her fathers or build guns with mauser actions.
They never build a good repeating gun( enfield lovers please forgive me but nobody outside of the empire buy it) and they never build a real automatic gun.
British game guns are beatyful but this was the classic gun from the "golden age" and the brits becoming to rich and to full in the big empire.

(.375 member)

27/04/06 07:33 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Nothing can compare to a British double rifle. Nothing.
They are the finest example of a hunting rifle, made by man, on the Planet. Nothing else even comes close. Nothing.

(.300 member)

27/04/06 01:49 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Maybe today is the day of the German Double Rifle?

How many DR's are made at this time by the British, Germans or any other country?

(.416 member)

27/04/06 04:25 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

NE450No2

The British gunmakers do make exceptional double rifles and they always had a great tradition to fall back on in doing this. That said, today, there are excellent German, Austrian, Italian etc manufacturers who make equally good gunsif you compare current production. But if you take the pre WW-2 years, the British did not have any competition at all. Sadly, many of the grand actions like the Woodward Automatic have been abandoned by the Brits though some others like the Facile Princeps and the Scottish Round are still being used to make double rifles.

MAny of the Italian guns - Famars and Piotti in particular - are unashamed copies of the British designs and probably even better made as are the fine Belgian guns from Lebeau Courally. The AUstrians also make fine double rifles, and they have been very active in experimenting with some traditional designs that the British have given up. One of the Winklers (Josef or Benedikt, I am not sure) made some 500 NE rifles on backlock actions as a design exercise and were able to bring the weight down to 8.5 lbs using Bohler Super Blitz steel. Just imagine that though, the recoil may have been punishing. They still impressed British authority Christopher Austyn who wrote about them and the guns sold for a fancy price at Sothebys some years ago.

Cheers!

(.300 member)

27/04/06 06:02 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Germanand Austrian game scene engraving, especially when in relief, is usually quite awful and most of those guns would look a lot better plain.

Administrator

(.450 member)

27/04/06 09:13 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Yeah, here's a real nice example of best quality English engraving on a top name double rifle - Holland & Holland. In fact, it is featured in the H&H catalog. I've seen nothing in Germany, Austria, or Italy as tasteless.

Something Queen Eliz can really be proud of!

I'll take relief German engraving over this every day. Go figure!

Curl

(.400 member)

27/04/06 10:07 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

YOWSERS!! GAG!!-----

First H&H I have seen that desperately needs a redo.

I guess I would take it if it were given to me though
(of course!)!!
It may be tasteless "art" but it is still a great gun!!!

(.275 member)

27/04/06 10:51 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

I'd agree on it being tasteless (and I really like Texas) though it's still impressive work. I can't remember the company, only that it is from Italy, but they have a line of bullino engraved guns with fairly tasteless nudes - I'm not a prude by any means but give me a break. I really like the deep relief German engraving - I guess there's something for everyone.

Here's a silly idea that I really like (on a bolt rifle) - the ball being shaped as a cat's head: http://www.mauser-usa.net/mauserrifle.jpg
And I thought I was the only person who'd want that.

Administrator

(.450 member)

27/04/06 11:30 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

I like good German deep-relief engraving.

But at the same time I like classic English scroll.

I also think the Italians can do superb work.

There's a lot of art out there that we can rejoice in.

Curl

(.275 member)

28/04/06 02:28 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

We work on alot of doubles and here is what we find. The current production guns be it Blaser, Heym, Krieghoff, Francotte, Chapuis all are great shooters. Not so much for the english guns unless great attention is paid to custom loading for the specific gun. Currently I have 2 real Rigby's that we are doing some minor work on. The first is a .303 re regulated sometime in the 70's. It is a wonderful shooter about 3" at 100 yds with both barrels. Out of the box the blaser 30 06 was a ragged hole for both barrel at 100 yds. The other gun is a .470 Sidelock Rigby, I must say this is the true essence of a double, but you are a minute of a turkey platter at 50 yds with Federal and Kynoch. As a control I took my Chapuis out and put 2 shots about an 1" apart on the same target. The Blaser shot a duplicate group to the Chapuis.
The best shooting British double I have ever shot was a .375 Flanged Royal Ejector built in the 60's. It was scoped as a driven boar rifle and would shoot ragged hole group at 100 yds. With sights at 50 R&L was no more than 1/2" apart. I prefer my Blasers and Kreighoffs still.

Aleko

(.450 member)

28/04/06 03:02 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Curl,

Regarding your comment about the Dallas and other guns being "tasteless",
if you were a gun maker and someone came in with �150,000 and said they
wanted "XYZ" built, I bet you wouldn't say no !

It is still tasteless though !!!

500 Nitro

Administrator

(.450 member)

28/04/06 03:05 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

In reply to:

It is still tasteless though !!!

Money doesn't define beauty or style.

Curl

(.375 member)

28/04/06 03:59 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

I hate to say it, but a lot of it "depends." Yes I've seen some horribly over done German and Austrian 'coo coo clockish" guns and rifles, but I've seen many guns I'd love to own (like Curly's clam shell 9.3

). Also I've seen some "London Best" British guns and rifles turned out in the 1970s that were pretty rough (heard one story of a H&H 12 bore that was horribly regulated...).

I have a bias towards simple, elegant style so the English guns have a tendecy to win me over, but I have to admit in my little collection I only have Continental doubles so...

(Sponsor)

28/04/06 04:58 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Surely HARTMANN & WEISS builds as good a gun as the Brits do.

Wouldn't you all agree?

(.375 member)

28/04/06 07:27 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

I should have clarified in my above post that I was refering to British Doubles made prior to WW2.

The Companies that make new made double rifles, like Chapuis, Krieghoff, Merkel, Heym, and Blaser should be commended for being able to make a double that a common man can afford.
They are all very good hunting guns, and in the field will serve as well as anyother.

(.450 member)

28/04/06 07:47 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

new guy

Yes, I would agree, the HARTMANN & WEISS
guns are exceptional.

And that's coming from an Anglophile !!!

500 Nitro

(.300 member)

28/04/06 10:03 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Quality-wise, how does Heym compare to Krieghoff?

(.375 member)

28/04/06 10:14 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

In reply to:

I've seen nothing in Germany, Austria, or Italy as tasteless.

Curl:

There was actual a thread on AR earlier this year talking about gun engraving.

Someone posted actual photos (the links currently do not work) of an Italian shotgun that was engraved with images right out of Hustler Magazine.

They were literally Gun Porn!

(.400 member)

28/04/06 11:29 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

I was trying to remember the maker.... It will come to me eventually.

(.400 member)

28/04/06 11:32 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

333,
Personally I would much rather have a Heym then a Krieghoff.

About the Dallas engraving, I agree it is hideous but it does show that H&H is willing to make its customers happy, no matter how asinine their request may be.

(.400 member)

28/04/06 11:36 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Just remembered, the makers of the nude engraved guns were Ivo Fabbri and Luciano Bosis. I believe they were shotguns.

Fabbri does some excellent engraving and the nudes are well done.... just not my style personally, for a gun anyway.

Here are a few examples;

http://www.fabbri.it/Engraving%208SQP.htm

http://www.fabbri.it/Engraving%208GWP.htm

http://www.fabbri.it/Engraving%208SUW.htm

Here is the site if anyone is interested;

http://www.fabbri.it/

(.416 member)

28/04/06 01:25 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Hey Clark, you better have a word with your local news-agent mate.
They're obviously sending you the Iranian edition of Hustler!

Tony Galazan has gone much further than this, if the photos in the
early issues of 'Petersen's Shotguns' magazine are anything to go by!

Administrator

(.700 member)

28/04/06 03:25 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Never been one to miss some tasteless smut or very tasteful art in some cases, I think I will start a thread on the DR Archive forum for erotic engraving. Hey it generates visitors!

Imagine having your beautiful girlfriend immortalised on the sideplates of your shotgun or double rifle. You never or probably. be allowed to bring it out for shoots. I wonder if the engraver ensists on personal sittings.

Also for other types of engraving. Will start a new thread where the gentlemen here and educate me and others on the different types of engraving.

Then it can be perserved for posterity on the Archive forum.

(.416 member)

28/04/06 08:04 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

John: Was that perv.. er, pers.. um, preserved for posterity?

(.375 member)

28/04/06 11:19 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

In reply to:

Hey Clark, you better have a word with your local news-agent mate.
They're obviously sending you the Iranian edition of Hustler!

Marrakai:

Let me see if I can track down the photos. You'll understand what I'm talking about when I get them.

(.275 member)

29/04/06 01:38 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

The Fabbri was the company I was thinking about. I think, but can't remember for sure if Galazan was the one who had sideplates featuring a Los Vegas theme that featured a sports car (Ferarri IIRC), dice, and what appeared to be a teenage girl unhappy at her chosen clothing-free career. The Fabbri guns are high art in comparison.

A deep relief scene with Diana would be nice - if a bit tame.

(.300 member)

30/04/06 10:49 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

So you don't think that World War One would have slowed opinions down with the rest of the world?

cheers

(.275 member)

02/05/06 06:05 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Very nice, no doubt.

But you should visit the store of this gunmaker(austria).

http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_1.php?lang=en

I think you would think about your posting...

Administrator

(.700 member)

02/05/06 11:45 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

In reply to:

Poster: Marrakai
Subject: Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

John: Was that perv.. er, pers.. um, preserved for posterity?

Marrakai

I do believe I have all the mentioned erotic engraving graphics downloaded somewhere on any of three different PCs. Have to find them.

400NitroExpress

(.400 member)

03/05/06 04:05 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

big412:

The short answer to your question is no, opinion specific to the Germans due to the Great War had little to do with it. For the Germans to have bested the Brits in the DR game, they would have needed to do so before the type went into general decline. Like I said, long before WWII.

The double rifle as a type peaked before WWI. Post-WWI DR production began as a shadow of pre-war levels and declined from there through the '20s and '30s. Overall DR production since WWII is a drop in the bucket in comparison to that of the prewar period.

The post WWI decline in demand for DRs effected everyone and was due solely to economics. Double rifles were exclusively British and European in origin, and the market for them was almost exclusively so in those days. WWI left Britain and Europe bankrupt. The world-wide market crash in 1929 only extended the austerity.
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(.300 member)

03/05/06 05:05 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

because the Mauser 98 rifle become the dangerous game rifle more and more( this starts before WW 1 and go into our time) we can say that the germans roll over the market for big bore guns.

(.275 member)

03/05/06 05:17 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

did everybody notice the smallest doublerifle on the hoferwaffen site?

2,2 lb 17HMR or 22 Hornet?

Really neat little thing!

(.275 member)

03/05/06 06:12 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

You can see pictures here: http://www.hoferwaffen.com/hofer_52s.php?id=14&lang=en

Press the picture to view more.. that colibri engraving is stunning!!

400NitroExpress

(.400 member)

03/05/06 06:50 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

pwm:

Nah. The magazine rifle didn't really get rolling until after WWI, and only then because it was cheap, not because it was better. That still holds true today. While the Mauser may have originated in Germany, it took the British to get the POS right.

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(.416 member)

03/05/06 10:07 AM

The smallest double rifle...

I did.

That was the first thing I looked at on the site.
What a beauty!

--Tinker

(.300 member)

03/05/06 01:15 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Great site,
I was aware that there were Austrian companies that made all varieties of combination guns but have never seen too many doubles until recently.
I have an Austrian combination rifle with high relief engraving, Roe, Red deer etc in 16 gauge and .222, very well made rifle.

cheers

(.416 member)

03/05/06 10:38 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

400NE:

In reply to:

Post-WWI DR production began as a shadow of pre-war levels and declined from there

I don't think this is an accurate picture. Many Brit makers did slow down after the first war, but others increased production during the 'roaring twenties' and early thirties. Don't discount the importance of the continuing high demand from Indian royalty either.

Although dealing mainly with shot-guns, a check of the annual serial number ranges of a few of the main DR makers in Nigel Brown's 'British Gunmakers' will paint both sides of the picture. Sadly, many records are missing.

John Wilkes, for example, made +/- 100 guns per year 1900 to 1914, then made up to 500 guns in some years during the 20s, and around 1500 guns per year 1930 to 1932. Then back to about 40 per year during the 30s. Interesting stuff.

I don't know where to look for actual numbers made in Europe each year. Any suggestions?

400NitroExpress

(.400 member)

04/05/06 02:29 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Yes, there were a few individual exceptions, but overall DR production was way down after WWI. Data from those who numbered DRs separately from shotguns is more enlightening.
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(.300 member)

04/05/06 11:31 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

The German guns are ok but when you take them apart you will notice that the British guns are far better in he fit and finish department. The Italians are also guilty of not polishing the interior parts like the Brits do. There is always a decent market for re-selling British doubles and this cannot be said for the continent guns.

Administrator

(.450 member)

04/05/06 12:05 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

I can't agree with the statement just made. I have seen the guts of several pre-WW2 German doubles. Those I have seen were remarkable for their interior fit and finish. As good as any British I have seen, if not better.

At the same time, I have seen the guts of one German gun of lesser quality. It was about what one would expect. Nothing fantastic, but comparable to any "working" or field grade gun.

In sum, I don't think you can characterize the various "nationalities" with such a broad brush. A lot of Brits show inferior fit and finish, and that's a fact.

Curl

(.300 member)

04/05/06 10:49 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

CptCurl,
how true, how true!!

cheers

(.300 member)

05/05/06 02:37 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

any good gunsmith will make you a fantastic gun if you pay 150000$ like Holland&Holland get.
There exist some fine german big bore doubles, making for dealer like Manton or Jefferys and they are good as any british gun but that is not the question.
There are reason's: practical and econnomical is and was the double gun allways a gentlemans gun. The common hunter in africa and india was hunting with a inexpensive Martiny rifle till german know how give him the mauser rifle in his hands.
The brits build fine guns with mauser actions but this was allways for gentleman. Take a look into the 1925 Mantons price list. a original Mauser in 10,75x68 cost 220 ru. when a .416 Rigby cost 1275 ru. .
In action will be the rigby worth to pay the price of 6 mauser rifles. You will say of course yes but you pay old guns for a price you will never get it new made.
No ,the common hunter take the original mauser and was very happy with it. All the brits can do was only cosmetic. without the german actions ( like in booth world wars) they are nothing. Its not that I cant seen what for a fine cosmetic it was. But if you ask if the germans take over the market for big game rifles with time I have to say yes.

(.375 member)

05/05/06 03:21 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Well said Curly. I think you have to compare oranges to oranges. Its not really fair to compare a modern Merkel (which is a fine entry level working double) to vintage Purdey and then say the German one is inferior. If you compare working guns to working guns, or "best guns" to "best guns" then I don't think there is much of a difference.

400NitroExpress

(.400 member)

05/05/06 04:49 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

pwm:

Yes, Manton sold a few double rifles that were bought in from Germany, mostly from FW Heym. These were not up to the quality standards of the British built rifles that Manton sold (handle one sometime) and the catalog prices reflected that. It's true that Jeffery was a retailer like Manton, but their DRs were British products, never German.

What the British did with the Mauser was a hell of a lot more than cosmetic.
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400NitroExpress

(.400 member)

05/05/06 04:58 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Curl:

Some of the pre-war German doubles exhibit fine craftsmanship. On average though, attention to detail wasn't as good as the British. The Germans did a nice job with small and medium bore doubles, which is primarily what they built, but were flummoxed by the large bores. They've never been able to get the geometry right.
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Administrator

(.450 member)

05/05/06 05:47 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

400,

Your point is good in that the Germans showed little interest in the large bores. My experience with German DR's is with small and medium bores.

Granted there was no German analog to Purdey, Holland & Holland, Boss, or Woodward. I think it is fair to say that they had no entrants in the high-end sidelock category at all.

However, even accepting the default at the very high end, I still think that class-for-class they display comparable workmanship. They made a lot of damn-fine boxlocks in small and medium bores.

Of course, this is all subjective. How do we compare them "class-for-class?" I can't wind the clock back to 1912 and identify two boxlocks of comparable price and then examine them for fit and finish. So what I assume to be "class-for-class" might not be so at all!

Still I think they are tarred with too broad a brush!

Best regards,
Curl

(.416 member)

06/05/06 03:21 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Cpt Curl,

You are absolutely right. The Germans did make some big bore double rifles - the names of Immanuel Meefert, Simson, J G Anschutz etc come to mind and Merkel made their Kersten U/O in some of the biggest bore chamberings of the time including the 600 Nitro. But they were totally eclipsed in numbers by the British, and, in quality as well, at the very top. Bread and butter guns from both countries were equally good, though, and there are some that you find every now and then on sale in India and abroad.

Cheers!

(.416 member)

07/05/06 02:21 AM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

Mehul-

On the topic of German big bore double rifles, check out this Schuler clamshell in 600 nitro.

It's currently for sale. This link should get you there.
http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=1033

--Tinker

(.300 member)

04/06/06 03:18 PM

Re: GERMAN DOUBLE RIFLES

The fact is you can use a broad brush. Ferrari for example is considered by many the finest sports car. Having owned several,I can honestly say that, " They are an automotive venereal disease!" The German guns function fine but they are generally lacking in the fit and finish department. I am talking about the fitting and polishing of the locks and internal parts. The Italians seem to have the same disregard of the pieces as well. This is not to say that ALL German or Italian guns are guilty of these flaws but a large number certainly are. I have also seen some very sloppy work from the English as well but just not as much.

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