| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 29/01/06 11:58 PM |
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Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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I received the 1906 Jeffery 450 No. 2 Saturday morning. After a quick inspection at the gun shop I took it home for a closer look. On the surface it looks very good. The action has very little corrosion and minor wear marks, and as previously stated the guts have been reworked so I'll rate the action 85+%. The original wood is in excellent condition with light handling marks , 85+%. The original 1906 chopper lump barrels are very good to excellent with sharp rifling from the chamber to muzzle with only very light cordite frost and no burn at all. The exterior of the barrels are perfect. Despite the fact they had to be put back on face, I'd rate them 90%. The Belgium barrels are also chopper lump and are 100%. The ejectors seem to be a little wonky and fail to eject about half the time reverting to extraction. I spoke to the owner and he gave me a $1500 credit for this. I have yet to shoot the rifle but have “shot” it may times with the snap caps.
How much does one have to pay for a high grade pre-war custom cased two barrel 85+% Jeffery double rifle in a 450No.2 with 4 boxes of kynoch ammo, 4 boxes of brass, bullets, dies, kynoch snap caps and a well documented restoration from a man who is still alive? More than $17,000 I reckon. If someone can show me a better buy please do so, as I have until Monday to decide.
CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 30/01/06 12:52 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Bonanza,
Let me be brutally honest with my opinion, at the risk of offending. The restoration was a failure. You said earlier, "Most of the work was on the ejectors" yet the ejectors aren't working.
Frankly speaking, the second set of barrels (Ferlach or Belgium?) in the same caliber adds little or no value, either in terms of use or in terms of resale. In my experience a second set of barrels in a different, useful caliber adds some value, but not near enough to cover the cost of the barrels. Here the second set is the same caliber, having been altered from .458 Mag. Undoubtedly the second set was made back when components for the .450#2 were not available, and Ferlach gunmaking was cheap. Now they are just so much excess baggage.
I know from my own experience that buying a double rifle is highly emotional. Once you decide to go for it, your mind tends to rationalize away the trouble in support of the initial commitment. It's important to be objective. Study the transaction with a very jaundiced eye. Rip it apart in your mind. Force yourself to acknowledge all the flaws. If after such caustic analysis the good outweighs the bad, then it's a good deal.
I've said before that my opinion is influenced by the fact that high original condition is important to me. Others feel differently about condition. But I doubt anybody feels they want to compromise on function and mechanical operation. One thing I do know is this. If Mazur spent 100 hours on this relic, mostly on the ejectors, and the end result is a dovetail insert in the hook and ejectors that fail to eject half the time, the "well documented restoration" was wasted time and money.
Unfortunately you don't have nearly the time to send the rifle to J.J., or anyone, for evaluation. I know of nobody in Charlotte NC qualified to do an inspection. I wouldn't accept anything Mazur said to you in your conversation with him. The proof of his lack of qualifications is in your hands.
I'd send that turkey back to the roost. Just my opinion, mind you. But don't let the exterior gloss blind you to the serious internal problems that remain unresolved. For my $17k, if spent on a boxlock, I expect a good solid tight and functioning double that reasonably should give yeoman service for the rest of my life.
Sorry to be so negative, but you asked for opinions. What I have said here I would say to my very best friend, so take no offense please.
Best regards, and good luck,
Curl
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/01/06 01:26 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Curl,
Absolutely no offenses taken, you have given me much to ponder. I'm in no rush and there will always be another gun for sale. I told him that I want until Monday to decide. The most I'd be out of this deal would be the shipping.
Blair
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CptCurl
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| (.450 member) |
| 30/01/06 01:33 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Bonanza,
I've eaten the shipping on two or three deals. Each time I felt it was money well spent. The cost in shipping to take a look is generally less than the cost of traveling to a gun show.
Curl
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/01/06 01:40 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Curl,
I have a line on the Army and Navy 450/400 3 1/4 at:
http://www.schwandtclassicarms.com/
which, by the way, is my favorite cartridge.
PS.
send me your phone number, Id like to talk to you.
| 470evans |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/01/06 01:48 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Bonanza, I've watched your posts with interest as buying a double is emotional. Those mechanics do sound worrysome. I agree with Curl, I'd probably return it unless I had more time to have JJ inspect it. I'd never buy a gun without a qualified inspection. I looked at probably 15-20 before I bought my two. I just had one sent to JJ and it turned out to be a "turkey", it went back.
I may know where there is an available 450 #2 if you are interested. The last price I had negotiated was 15k and it sounds like a nice gun.
Let me know if you are interested.
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/01/06 01:55 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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470,
Yes I would. Indeed, this is emotional and I need to keep my head on, but you should try buying you first light airplane if you want to talk emotions
B.
| BlainSmipy |
| (.375 member) |
| 30/01/06 02:52 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Or your second or third or forth.....it never gets easier on airplanes or doubles!!!
Oh BTW...its WORSE SELLING your dearly loved airplane than buying.
Colorado..
| bulldog563 |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/01/06 03:28 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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If I were you and I still wanted to keep the rifle I would contact the Seller and tell him he has 2 options;
1. Allow for a longer inspection period so you can send the rifle to a competent DR guy for a thorough inspection.
Or
2. You will return it in the agreed upon time frame.
| 400NitroExpress |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/01/06 05:07 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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So, after 70 bench hours, much of it spent on the ejectors according to the 'smith himself, the ejectors are still Tango Uniform (of course, that's all ejectors on a double rifle are good for anyway!). Sorry, but that's just beyond The Pale. At this point, pending the evaluation of a gunmaker, I'd give the "restoration" work done a value of zero, possibly less (IMO, he reduced the value by dovetailing the hook). Arrange to get the inspection period extended and the gun sent to a pro, or put that pooch back in her kennel and send her home.
Given your description of the condition of the original barrels, I would have said that $17k might be a fair price, but the dovetailed hook really bothers me. To me, the new barrels would offer considerable utility value, but add little to market value.
----------------------------------------------------------
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 30/01/06 06:19 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Bonanza,
I read your post a day or so ago and have been pondering it.
I thought the work $ and time excessive and as Curl said
it doesn't seem to have made a difference to the Ejectors.
Re the Ejectors - you said they sometimes work, sometimes don't.
Let me explain why I am concenred re this.
I had a Manton SxS Shotgun in great condition - but the Ejectors
worked sometimes and sometimes didn't.
It turned out the "Kickers" on the front of the action were worn,
one in particular and to fix it would have been hard - and required Metal
build up and alot of time and mney
I eneded up selling the gun to a gunsmith when the opportunity arose
- he expressed interest in the gun !
Therefore I would be extremely wary not knowing why the Ejectors are
not working after so much work just in case they can't be fixed.
Hope this helps.
500 Nitro
| Rusty |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/01/06 07:02 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Bonanza,
You've got plenty of good advice from the posters above!
I would just like to commend you on asking for advice and trying to remain emotionally detached from the event. It is not easy. Patience is indeed a virtue. A virtue that will be rewarded.
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/01/06 07:20 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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I've gone back over the gun and Mazur's notes and much of the work had to do with getting the sears (triggers, hammers, ejectors, etc) to the correct settings. Any piece he had to weld or repair was hardened and tempered.
As far as the ejectors go, it may be a matter of timing. Mazur set them to be late and he reduced the spring force as they were tossing brass 15+ feet. He told me to open the gun fully to release the ejectors. If I open it slowly sometimes they don't eject, but if I open it with authority, they eject every time.
Regarding the pieced in hook, I spoke to JJ and he said there are both pros and cons to the weld-up vs. piece-in. The weld up will anneal the steel making it softer than the rest of the lump. Piece-in does not change the original lump properties and the piece can be made from hardened steel. The piece can also be replace if needed. The disadvantage is that it can work loose over time.
The real advantage of the second (Ferlach) barrel is that I don't ever have to shoot the originals, and I take comfort in that these barrels have been tested to over 20 tons per square inch when they were proofed in 458.
In the final analysis, if I don't like it I'll list it on Brass Pro Shop for $50K
| bulldog563 |
| (.400 member) |
| 30/01/06 05:43 PM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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I don't mean any offence but I think you are letting you emotions get involved too much. Before accepting this rifle you really NEED to get it evaluated by a competent DR guy to see if this will be an easy fix. If the seller doesn't allow this then he obviously knows there is something significantly wrong with the rifle and is a huge warning sign. Do yourself a favor and follow the advice that everyone has given you here. If it were me and everyone on this board, who can be objective because not emotionally involved, were telling me to at least have it checked out I hope that I would take their advice. Good Luck regardless of what you decide.
| 375Brno |
| (.333 member) |
| 30/01/06 06:47 PM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Bonanza
At this stage I know bugger all about DRs but I do know the feeling of wanting something badly. My opinion - follow the advice of others and get it checked properly before committing. You will hate yourself more than you wanted it if you make the wrong decision.
375Fetish
| Marrakai |
| (.416 member) |
| 30/01/06 11:10 PM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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I know from bitter experience that in my own case, regret is a lingering ailment that can never be put right, whereas an acquisition 'in the hand' is tangible and can be repaired or improved if necessary to the point of ultimate satisfaction.
But not everyone is a born restorer like me!
I never miss the money, it only has to be spent once and that only takes a few seconds: ownership can be experienced every single day for perhaps the rest of your life if so desired.
Damn: I'd be unbearably inquisitive about the workings of those ejectors, probably buy the thing just to find out what's going on!
BTW, bore condition is everything in a used double. Stuffed bores or won't group, and it's all over!
Sounds like the Jeffery is OK in that regard with the brand new tubes.
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NitroX
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| (.700 member) |
| 31/01/06 01:30 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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First thing due to the extensive restoration the rifle is more a user than an investment piece.
As the ejectors aren't working properly during your evaluation period, negotiate a longer period, for an independent DR gunsmith to check it over. That person can also advise on any additional repair costs needed.
If they won't do that, send it back.
If they agree send it off to get checked properly.
After all they told you the ejectors had been fixed and they aren't.
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 31/01/06 02:06 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Something also to note, is that when it comes right down to it, the ejector system on that rifle is essentially very very simple.
What isn't right at this point could easily be put right by someone such as JJ for little more than the rifle is going to cost as it is.
Just a thought.
--Tinker
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/01/06 02:14 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Considering my requirements: famous London brand, pre-war, stopper class, good to excellent condition and $15-$19k range; I could be at this game for a long time. I spent 8 months searching for a Beechcraft Bonanza in my price range and every aircraft had one issue or another. I finally realized that none will be perfect and used my own research and gut feeling to choose one. Guy’s I don’t want to spend six months looking for a perfect $15k rifle, a $35k+ rifle - absolutely. The bores are very very good on the 1906 set and mint on the second set. I consider the ejectors a minor issue and I’m not buying for an investment. I’m going for it!
| bonanza |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/01/06 02:28 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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Here is the issue with the ejectors. It has to do with the second set of barrels. The forearm sits slightly askew and the ejector trigger rods don’t reach quite far enough to trip the sear fully. When I grip the forearm tightly and open with authority, it is aligned and the ejectors fire. They work perfectly on the original set. I attribute this to the fact that the forearm was inletted to the original set and the second set is a compromise fit. If (when) I go on safari I’ll take the original set and just practice with the Ferlach set at the range. In all honesty I’d like to “deactivate” the ejectors, as I prefer extractors.
| BlainSmipy |
| (.375 member) |
| 31/01/06 07:48 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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I am just not experienced enough with doubles to speak with authority. However, from what I've read and my gut says, bores are everything. A double that won't regulate or has lousy bores is useless. Or another way we say it in the south and Colorado, "..that dog don't hunt...".
A few minor mechanical problems that can be easily fixed should not be the sole basis for discounting a potentially great deal. This is a field gun, and the price and extra barrel, in my opinion, make it an outstanding value. Somebody posted that "and extra set of barrels adds no value". I just don't understand this statement. When barrels are everything to a double having an extra set is adds nothing? Sorry I just don't believe this for a second. At the very least you use the second set for target shooting, thus perserving the originals. That alone is value added. I would much rather have my $800.00 Pedersoli Kodiak 12 bore that shoots a 2" composite group, than a $30000.00 Holland that couldn't hit the side of a barn, but ejects rounds thirty feet.
However, as I always say, opinions and advice are like hind-ends everybody has one and some stink more than others. I'll be the first to admit that mine is the worst (stink that is).
Colorado
| bulldog563 |
| (.400 member) |
| 31/01/06 11:46 AM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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I'm sorry but I don't see what the downside of having it checked out by a qualified smith before accepting it is. You haven't had it checked out by an independent smith at all. All you have to go on is what his guy says. If it were me I would have it checked out before accepting it no matter how perfect it seemed. Granted to ejector problem might be minor and only on one set of barrels but what if there is something else wrong that hasn't been caught yet. There have been enough threads on used dr deals gone wrong to have it checked no matter how good of a deal it seems like. It is still almost 20K no matter how you look at it.
| chrispie |
| (.275 member) |
| 01/02/06 12:42 PM |
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Re: Jeffery 450#2 intial report
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if you don't rush and shop around you can find that perfect rifle, i found this Westley Richards for about 18.5k US, i cut and pasted there discription, and they have 2 pic's of it, i would post the pic's but don't know how. if you are hung up on the jeffery's at least have it sent to J.J's for inspection. my two cents worth.
Details of product code T10213 (Westley Richards, Double Rifle)
Maker Model Barrel Gauge Chokes New/Used Code Price
Westley Richards Double Rifle 26 400/450 N/A Used T10213 £10,500.00
Details
As new with the name in gold
Image