| wapitiman |
| (.224 member) |
| 11/04/05 10:08 AM |
dan fraser for sale, Pics are here
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How does one post pics in this box?
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 11/04/05 11:39 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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In reply to:
Re: How to post photos in NitroExpress.com
Again ....
Email them to me. I will host them for you.
Nitro@NitroExpress.com
Keep the size in the range 10 to 70 kb, please, preferably less than 40 kb.
| Photos |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/04/05 01:23 AM |
Re: dan fraser for sale
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l.o.p. 14 3/4''
9 1/4 lbs
cal- 500/450 no 2
made about 1895
very nice oak & leather case(relined)
27" bbls
latest DGJ has pics & info on a fraser very similar to this one but not nearly as nice. Price 16,000
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 14/04/05 03:07 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Mickey,
A good example of a "Best" gun that is a boxlock !!!
That's a fine piece and a good pick up for someone of a very well made gun
by a very good maker.
Do you know any history ?
Are the locks are gold washed ?
500 Nitro
| mickey |
| (.416 member) |
| 14/04/05 06:00 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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500Nitro
It is not mine, it belongs to Wapitiman. It is for sale.
| wapitiman |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/04/05 06:31 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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I would imagine the locks are gold washed from what I have seen of other frasers but cant say for sure.If you buy it feel free to take it apart and see..
| wapitiman |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/04/05 12:09 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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The latest DGJ has an article on a rifle nearly identicle to this one.(not nearly as nice though).
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 14/04/05 01:08 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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wapitiman
Sorry, Nice gun, wrong calibre. Different calibre, I'd be interested.
Also, just sold a cased, scoped Daniel Fraser.
Question re Gold wash locks was because some do and some don't and no pattern
seems to have emerged from the guns I've inspected or friends owned.
Thanks anyway.
500 Nitro
| wapitiman |
| (.224 member) |
| 14/04/05 01:31 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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The fraser in DGJ was scoped.Was it yours? Do you mind telling me what it sold for maybe in a pm?what caliber?
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 14/04/05 05:51 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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No, the one in the DGJ was identical but it was not the same gun.
IMHO, your gun (subject to the usual inspections) looks like a good buy
- certainly not overpriced.
I bought a scoped one for a friend 3 years ago in a very, very similar calibre
and that was 3 years ago - so read into that what you like !!!
Daniel Fraser was / is one of the most underated Makers. I have heard people
(especially from some uneducated, supposed experts in the US) say things like
"it's just a boxlock" etc etc.
I am glad that the DGJ with a few articles seems to be rectifying this lack of appreciation.
The reason I am not interested is my collecting is going in another direction,
I am not personally interested in that calibre (or most BP doubles - that's not to say
it's not a good calibre, it is a good calibre) and I have enough guns in the US that I have to
get back / over to Australia without adding to them !!!
I would be surprisedd if you don't sell it soon.
Hope this helps.
500 Nitro
| mehulkamdar |
| (.416 member) |
| 18/04/05 01:55 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Wapitiman,
That is a beautiful rifle. Does your friend really want to sell it?
500 Nitro,
Didn't the Scots make some of the most advanced boxlocks ever? MacNaughton who is a member here is a particular fan of the Harkoms.
Of course, all of the grand Scottish names are now owned by one company, Dickson, MacNaughton, HArkom, Dan'l Fraser, Alex Henry and Alex Martin. Sadly, the guns are not made in Scotland from what I have heard but they are still fantastic.
Good hunting!
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 18/04/05 03:22 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale, Pics are here
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How does this rifle shoot?
What is it regulated with?
--Tinker
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 18/04/05 05:43 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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mehulkamdar
Didn't the Scots make some of the most advanced boxlocks ever? YES, I agree.
Except that what do you class a Trigger Plate action as ? A boxlock ? I don't think so (IMHO).
A bit like Westley Richard Droplocks, are they Boxlocks ? Auction houses seem to put them in
with Sidelocks and have done for some time. IMHO, they (Droplocks and Trigger Plate
actions are definately a step up on a Boxlock.
Don't know about Harkoms.
IMHO, I think Alex Henry, Dan'l Fraser, Dickson, MacNaughton and Alex Martin made guns as good
as any Best London Gun - just a different style, taste.
I have a William Horton 360 x 2 7/16 BP BLNE Double Rifle, cased with all accessories. It is really nice.
Just my thoughts.
500 Nitro
| mehulkamdar |
| (.416 member) |
| 19/04/05 08:44 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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500 Nitro,
Some time ago, in a public debate on action types in one of the British magazines (was it Guns Review? I can't recall rightaway) someone ended an argument commenting that Geoff Boothroyd was the greatest authority on shotgunning until then and pointed out that he used a Dickson round action pair throughout his life.
Mac Naughton on NE has a Bar in Wood Mac Naughton 12 bore which is probably the most beautiful shotgun I have ever seen and he informs me that round actions are listed along with sidelocks at British auctions.
I agree with you on this completely!
Just check this Harkom boxlock on sale on one of the US gun lists! http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976373633.htm
(Thanks Mac Naughton, for alerting me to the missing web link
)Good hunting,
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 19/04/05 09:05 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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A trigger plate action isn`t a boxlock.....but it`s more a boxlock than a sidelock. I think that the auction houses `lump` them in with the sidelocks to indicate that they are of `superior` ( don`t ask me to qualify that ) quality to a boxlock - the same applies to W R droplocks.
The Scots made guns to compare with anything built in London - and usually at a lower price.
Gold washing of the lock parts is a particular feature of Mortimer and Harkom guns - but wasn`t consistently applied.
Joseph Harkom was taken over by Mortimer in 1875 ( I think that`s the correct date ) but guns bearing the Harkom name continued to be built until well in the 20th century. The distinctive Harkom Boxlock was developed under Mortimer ownership and is reckoned by many ( especially Scots ) to be the finest boxlock ever created. Mortimer also produced their own boxlocks which shared some of the characteristics of the Harkom - I have a 12 bore Mortimer shotgun and it is a beautiful gun.
How to tell a Harkom ? Look for the distinctive chiselled fences ........ just like the ones on the Daniel Fraser pictured above - that`s the third or fourth Harkom `Daniel Fraser` that I`ve seen.
| wapitiman |
| (.224 member) |
| 19/04/05 01:28 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Yep,its really for sale!16,000.00 and he's never shot it!
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 19/04/05 02:18 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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MacNaughton,
I agree with everyting you say, especially
I think that the auction houses `lump` them in with the sidelocks to indicate that they are of `superior`
(YOU DON'T NEED TO qualify that ) quality to a boxlock - the same applies to W R droplocks.
The Scots made guns to compare with anything built in London - and usually at a lower price.
Glad to see we have some concensus on a subject for once.
500 Nitro
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/04/05 07:54 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Plenty of consensus here ! I love Scottish guns - I`m still looking for the Alex Martin Celtic engraved 12 bore that I`ve been promising myself......I might even have found it ( but don`t like the price ! )
`Best` boxlock shotguns are now more appreciated, with a consequent surge in value. `Best` boxlock rifles have been valued for several years. Of the two most superbly engraved
boxlocks I`ve ever seen, one was Scottish built ( by Charles Ingram of Glasgow ) and the other built by W.R.Pape of Newcastle upon Tyne.
Look at that Daniel Fraser - it`s a beautiful rifle built on what is probably the finest boxlock action ever produced. If it carried a major London name ( Boss, Purdey or Holland & Holland ) it would be at least twice the money.......but wouldn`t be built any better.
`Buy the gun, not the name`.
Wapitiman. How is `Daniel` spelt on the gun ? Is it the full `Daniel` or the abbreviated form `DAN small `L` as it appears on the trade label ?
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 20/04/05 09:22 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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MacNaughton
Those who understand love Scottish guns - those that don't buy the name !!!
Saw a superb W.R.Pape 2 years ago - bit down in condition but it came up a treat when
the guy who bought it had it done up.
Just got word that the person who ended up with the Daniel Fraser discussed in a previous post of mine
shot a deer with it on the weekend !!!
`Buy the gun, not the name`.
As much as I get on with people in the US, they are some of the worst at `Buying the name`.
I think when Rigby was taken over by the US buyer made everyone in the US (from what
I have been told by friends) sit up and realise that there is more to the gun than the name.
It's like trying to explain to people about Pre 1970 Rigbys and that they are (some anyway)
Webley actions and when people say "Oh, Army and Navy" yet it is a straight out Webeley Screw
Grip or PHV Action - 2 of the best IMHO.
Jeffrey is another one - how many guns came from Belgium ?
500 Nitro
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 20/04/05 12:53 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Webley & Scott built guns and actions for loads of makers - some of them famous names like Holland & Holland. They weren`t the only Birmingham `makers to the trade` though as there were plenty of others. People ought to read a few books as they might be surprised at who actually built their famous name guns. Douglas Tates` `Birmingham Gunmakers` lets many of the `cats out of the bag. When Nigel Browns` second volume of `British Gunmakers` becomes available it ought to go a long way towards completing the job.
I was talking to Robin Brown of A.A.Brown & Sons last Friday - another well known `maker to the trade` and builders of some of the finest finest bespoke shotguns in existence - what he had to say re. the subject was extraordinary.....and I daren`t repeat much of it !
Jeffery sourced guns and parts from many different makers - I doubt that the full extent of who those makers were will ever be completely known. They weren`t the only ones to source items from Belgium either. Does it really matter who actually built a gun though ? The quality is what matters -
when the quality doesn`t match that expected of the name is the time to start worrying............
What was that about Rigby ?
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 20/04/05 01:44 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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MacNaughton
Subtlety kills !!! What was that about Rigby ?
I was discussing Rigby's with a US Mate one day (he was cursing) and he said that the US market
now defines Rigby's as such.
"TRUE" Rigbys built up to when Paul Roberts took over. The (Sidelocks) are split into
- Rigby Bissell Rising 3rd bite Sidelocks
- POST Rigby Bissell Rising 3rd bite Sidelocks - ie Webeley's
- The rest
Then you have "Paul Roberts' Rigby's" which can be split into early and late.
The you have the "US Made Rigby's", commonly known as MEXICAN Rigby's !!!
The last comment about "MEXICAN'S" cracked me up when he said it.
He aslo commented that the Value of "TRUE" Rigbys, particulalry the
Rigby Bissell Rising 3rd bite Sidelocks went up when the US purchase went through.
I also talk to Robin Brown of A.A.Brown & Sons reasonably often - he makes fine guns
and the AA Browns are VERY undervalued (IMHO). What was that about Westley Richards ?
In my last conversation with Robin, I commented on the "London" "Birmingham" snobbery.
and said I often ask people where Stanton, Brazier Ashes locks come from !!! So much for
BEST guns being made in London !!!
It just wouldn't do to have "Coventry" on the locks, would it ?!?!
Have you seen Dallas's Holland book ?
The page where he states that every Holland made prior to 1892 or 3 (somewhere around here)
was made by ?W & C Scott? or one of this crowd of brothers.
Anyway, will await your interesting response.
500 Nitro
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 21/04/05 05:28 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Paul Roberts Rigbys were all built on original Rigby ( or Webley if you prefer ) action forgings as far as I know and have a reasonable claim to being `true` Rigbys. The subject of who produced `rough` action forgings is one that needs research but I`d give odds on them all being produced in Sheffield.
Lockmaking was a specialist art and nearly all - including the very best, ie. Joseph Brazier Ashes, Stanton and Chilton were built in Wolverhampton ( which sounds - and was - a lot worse than Coventry ! ) Locks by those three concerns were used by all the makers of `best` guns and occasionally you will find a London best gun with signed locks - I`ve seen four Holland & Holland Royals with signed Brazier locks now, one of them a rifle. After WWII the quality of some makers locks declined considerably which is why A.A.Brown & Sons started to build their own - which Robin still does. The next time you communicate with Robin Brown ask him where E.J.Churchill sourced some of their locks from immediately after WWII ( and ask him also about the O/U shotguns from a very famous name which were built in the same place as those locks ! )
I can`t imagine what you are referring to re. Westley Richards and A.A.Brown & Sons .......... it`s just a coincidence that A.A.Brown & Sons rented space in the Westley Richards factory after WWII. ( That photograph of a very young Robin holding an A.A.Brown built Westley Richards is a bit of a giveaway though ........... ! )
A third of Holland & Hollands were built by W.C.Scott and others up until the 1890s ? To my knowledge ALL H&H `Dominion` models were built by W.C.Scott/Webley and Scott and A.A.Brown were building Holland & Hollands in the 1950s.
This is beginning to look like an advertisement for A.A.Brown & Sons with the implication that they built guns for just about everyone. They certainly made guns for many other `makers` but were just one of several Birmingham `makers to the trade` some of whom probably never built a gun under their own name.
The heart of British gunmaking was Birmingham for around two hundred years yet it has laboured under a `second best` label for nearly as long. The extensive research that has taken place in recent years has revealed ( with more revelations to come ) that the `second best` label is not only inaccurate but ridiculous as many `best` London guns were actually built in Birmingham.
A new argument that is now developing as a result of those revelations is that most innovation took place in London - Oh yeah ? Look at the patents granted to Anson & Deeley and W.W.Greener - to mention just two concerns, both of whom were based in Birmingham........and I haven`t started on the provinces yet: Choke borings it is now pretty well accepted were invented by W.R.Pape in Newcastle; The trigger plate/round actions by MacNaughton and Dickson in Edinburgh - the list goes on and on.
Interesting that this thread has developed around a Scottish rifle carrying a Daniel Fraser `label` ( but built by Joseph Harkom/Thomas Mortimer - another example of `making to the trade`. )
| tinker |
| (.416 member) |
| 21/04/05 06:17 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Something else to consider is that of those 'inventions' many of those were simply noticed by the patent holders and then registered at the patent office.
I have a high grade belgian 12 bore pinfire shotgun that is choke bored. I'm pretty sure it's date of manufacture pre-dates the patent on choke boring.
I've seen variations of the Lefaucheux action on pinfire doubles with double bite lumps from belgium and france...
I'm in support of the notion that one should buy the gun and not the name.
--Tinker
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 21/04/05 07:24 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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tinker. That`s a very good point - gunmakers `ripped-off` each others designs continually. I don`t think that there can be much doubt that Anson & Deeley and W.W.Greeners were innovators though. W.R.Pape is now universally credited with inventing choke boring - you can ignore any patent dates re. that subject. Up until the advent of the modern hammerless gun - and for a few years before - there was probably more innovation from French gunmakers than from any other country. After the British hammerless gun appeared its` `form` gained almost universal acceptance and was `copied` just about everywhere. French gunmakers continue/d to offer individual designs however. The Belgians were never great innovators but were the best in the world at recognising a good design and actually manufacturing it.
Mehul Kamdar and I have recently been discussing how honest Italian gunmakers are at acknowledging the inspiration for their guns - just check-out the websites - but the same can`t be said for gunmakers in other countries - `Oh look, another German Greener............`
500Nitro. I cracked-up at your mention of `Mexican Rigbys` - a classic. There`s an obvious reference to the Spanish built actions there. As far as I know the derogatory `Mexican` term first came about when Fender started to make cheaper guitars in Mexico. Funny how there were never any derogatory comments concerning the quality of the Japanese built Fenders................
For the California Rigbys to gain acceptance their quality had to be at least as good as the `proper` Rigbys and preferably built on a copy of the original actions. A `downmarket` Rigby is a contradiction in terms.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 21/04/05 07:56 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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I'm glad I bought a Rigby Bissell Rising third bite Sidelock double rifle
when I did. At least I can thank the current Mr Rigby for increasing it's value !!!
All would have been fine with Rigby USA IF and it is a big IF they had
not just taken Merkel's and stuck Rigby on the side. Do they think the consumer
is stupid. NOt only that but my 2 Merkels are better finished than the original
Merkel Rigby's that were used in the Advertising photos in the DGJ.
Have a look at the uneven stock wood around the action AND the gaps
between the wood/metal work. Not what you call a good Advertisement.
I agre with you re Belgium's - good copiers / makers.
I know what you mean whenyou say the Italians "Acknowledge" where the
designs come from. A bit like AYA with the H&H Hand Detacheable locks.
From what I have read I agree with your statement about
"there was probably more innovation from French gunmakers than from any other country".
However I tend to concentrate on TL Hammerless Nitro Guns so don't do a whole heap
of research in this area.
Anyway, will await your reply.
Regards,
500 Nitro
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 21/04/05 01:00 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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I`m glad that you bought a Rigby double rifle..........I only wish that I had. I wish that I`d invested a few grand in a selection of top flight double rifles thirty years ago ! I`m not too sure about how much the California Rigbys have affected the value of `old` Rigbys as prices have been rising pretty consistently anyway. I suppose the California Rigbys might have made the buying public more aware that there is a decidely finite supply of the original Rigbys with a subsequent hike in value.
I only saw the advertising photographs in the DBJ some time after they first appeared when somebody drew my attention to them and realised straight away that they had problems - If they couldn`t finish a gun to superb type specs for an advertisement it didn`t bode too well for the consumer guns. You`re not the first person to comment on the finish of those Rigby Merkel actions and it was something that really puzzled me as Merkels are generally excellently finished. The only thing that I could think of is that the actions were built to a price - you get what you pay for in other words.
Merkels are, as I said, usually very well finished - just ( very ) occasionally though a less well finished gun gets out of the factory. I have no idea why - staff training day maybe ? Likewise - and again very occasionally - a Merkel appears that is a little `tight` feeling on closing and they don`t get any better with use, if anything they get `tighter`.
It`s not fair to `hit` on Merkel as they are no more inclined to produce a slightly less good gun than most other volume gunmakers. Berettas are pretty consistent but every now and then you get a ridiculously good example with wood that is way above the model standard. Anyone in the market for a new Beretta should view a good selection before buying as the odds of finding one of those exceptional examples are pretty good. I actually know of a gunshop in the UK that has taken to pricing new Berettas individually to take advantage of this.
Oh yes, `proper` guns are hammerless and burn smokeless powder. I can appreciate a hammer gun but have no desire to own one - and as for that stinky black stuff......... If that makes me a Philistine then so be it - I reckon I`m entitled to my opinion. Actually messing about with black powder guns can be fun.....but I wouldn`t take one into the field.
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 21/04/05 05:43 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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MacNaughton,
Apart from the William Horton 360 2 7/16th, I have moved on all of my BP Doubles.
I still have an Alex Henry 450 BP Single Shot in need of a restoration but I agree,
it's too much hard work.
That makes 2 Philistine's
You have to remeber that Australians were one of he first countries who started using
Doubles again back in the 70's - BP, Nitro, Bore Guns and Paradox's so all of the guns
here tended to be used on game.
Some funny stories are around of 4 and 8 bores on Buffalo.
Anyway, have work to do so must go.
500 Nitro
| 500Nitro |
| (.450 member) |
| 22/04/05 07:09 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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MacNaughton,
Firstly, did you see the MacNaughton 470 in an Auction in London a few years ago ?
I nearly had a crack at it but went for something else instead after speaking with
someone in Scotland who owns the MacNaugton name.
William Horton
What do you know about William Horton that isn't already published
in the usual reference books ?
500 Nitro
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 22/04/05 08:18 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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I can`t remember that particular MacNaughton rifle but have seen a couple of others - I`ve never seen ( or heard of ) a bar-in-wood round action rifle.
I`ve little idea of what has been published about William Horton......and have no idea what you might know already.
He was a Stocker in Birmingham before setting up as a gunmaker. Later moved to Whitehaven and then to Glasgow - various addresses. Produced a boxlock action ( I`ve seen two of them I believe ) and was credited with a couple of patents. I`ve had a sidelock of his and have seen others - all built on proprietary Birmingham actions - the one that I had being fitted with Chilton locks. I`ve seen two boxlock rifles, one on a Webley & Scott action, the other on the ubiquitous Alex Henry/Alex Martin type action that was produced by at least two or three Birmingham makers. I`ve also seen an earlier back action hammer sidelock in .450BPE. His own design boxlock seems to have been made for only a few years up to around the mid 1890s - after that all the actions were bought in. The later guns were 100% Birmingham made.
I`m vaguely aware of some relationship with Charles Ingram/George Coster but can`t think what that might be at the moment - I`ll have to brood on that.
I an supply dates for the various addresses but the IGC Historical Database is bound to have them and, no doubt, other information.
Is there a specific question that you have ? My personal historical database is mostly in my head and usually requires specific prompting to retrieve information.....a thump in the ear is often quite effective !
| Morten |
| (.275 member) |
| 25/04/05 01:51 AM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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There is no doubdt that D.F.was one of the top gunmaker. I have speaked with people that think he was at the top three riflemaker. So I think that if you can get your hand on a D.F. you should grab it an sacrefiese your whole arm in the effort.
Daniel Fraser was mainly a riflemaker and was born 1845 and started his apprenice in 1859 at Alexander Henry. At the age of 21 he was set out to Turkish to introduse the A. henry guns taht the Sultan had orderd for the army. in 1878 he started on his own at 4 Leith Steret Edinburgh and every part of his gunmaking was done in his own factory. He actually was very eager about woodblanks for his guns and traveld himself to France to pick the blanks by him selv.
In a bird hunt in 1902 the weather was not that plesant and he got very wet. He got sick and died later that year only 57 years old. His sons did run the firm some years but in 1911 they closed the business.
In the 30 years that D.F. build guns he build about 3500 guns. 10% shotguns, 10% falling block rifles, 30 D.B.Rifles, and the rest was bolt action rifles. Roughly around 1000 Double Barreld Rifles are made with the Daniel Fraser Lable.
I hope this was a bit interesting for you fellas.
| MacNaughton |
| (.275 member) |
| 27/04/05 02:44 PM |
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Re: dan fraser for sale
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Hi Morten. Don`t believe everything that you read in books - especially as the books are having to be revised at a remarkable pace at the moment. Daniel Fraser might have built every part of his earlier guns but by the turn of the century the company was definitely buying in guns from other manufacturers. I`ve had a c.1900 Fraser shotgun apart and can assure you that it was all Mortimer. Daniel Fraser shotguns are rarely encountered and the few that I`ve seen have all been of very high quality - like all Daniel Fraser guns ( especially if they were built by Harkon/Mortimer
) I`ve never seen a sidelock shotgun but have heard of them - obviously very rare.