JPK
(.375 member)
16/03/05 02:57 PM
My new double riffle

I've been lurking for a while on this board mostly because I didn't often feel I had much to add. Never owned a double rifle and never been to Africa, though I dreamed of both.

I sure did learn alot and want to thank all the members for so freely sharing their experience, knowledge and opinions. Just today took delivery of my new to me double rifle and wow feels and points better than I had hoped. Also finalized plans for a trip to Zimbabwe in October too. I'll cut the check tommorow for the deposit. Big day for me!

The more I read here and the more research I did the more I realized how little I knew. I've got several sxs shotguns including a pair of English sidelocks but double rifles are a whole diferent ballgame. Also I'm a lefty and like a pretty long stock which makes things pretty tough with any rifle or gun that has any serious collectors value since almost all the time I've got to bend or restock.

This pretty much ruled out the vast majority of English rifles, at least for a first rifle. Following advise on this board and AR I relied on advise from way more knowledgeable people like JJ Peredeau at Champlin and Paul Chapman at G&H. The rifle I found is a Marcel Thys sidelock. It went to JJ for eval before I got my hands on it and he gave a great evaluation and a thumbs up. I will shoot it tommorow.

Oddly, and against the sage advise on this board the rifle is 458win. I actually bought the rifle with the idea that JJ would recut the chambers and rework the ejectors to 450NE 3 1/4" and reregulate if nesseccary. I actually priced up the work with him before wrangling price with the seller. When JJ got the rifle he checked it out and shot it as well. His opinion is that the rifle was made in mid 80's and has hardly been used. The action is still "new" stiff and other than a couple of handling marks and the need for some linseed oil and hand buffing on the stock it appears new.

The most intresting thing is that JJ suggested leaving the rifle as a 458 win mag. He was impressed with the blade extraction/ejection system and really happy with the way it shot.

JJ sent me his target and, from what I've read here, it seems good. At 50yds the rifle printed two rights and two lefts in just less than two inches with the barrels crossing about an inch and a half. Three shots are on the same hoizontal plain with one left about a quarter inch below the other three. That horizontal plain is about 2 1/8" above point of aim. The center of this two inch long group is about 1 1/2" to the right of POA. The two rights are 5/8" apart horizontally on the same plain and the two lefts, overlapping in a figure eight tilted to the right. The most right right is 5/8" left of the most left left and obviously the most left right and the most right left are just shy of two inches apart and constitute the max group size.

JJ used ammo from an old box of Winchester 500 grain softs. In his opinion with modern factory ammo the crossing will decrease and the group come down since he thought the old ammo was loaded slower than new stuff and JJ thought a little hand loading would really make the rifle shoot. I don't handload though - at least not yet. JJ also thought that on the 458wm velocity issue this gun with either new factory ammo or a suitable handload, ie matching the original regulation load, would about equal the velocity of a 24" 470 shooting the Federal loads since this gun has 26" barrels.

Another intresting thing is that although the rifle has maybe 1/4" or 3/8" cast off it comes up well for me. In a shotgun I take about 1/4" cast on. The sights are not quite perfect and I do need to do something about the cast but not much. the front bead is too small too. the front bead comes up 1, maybe 2 bead diameters to the right of the bottom of the V. the drop at comb seems right on and matches some of my shotguns at 1 5/8" but drop at heel is a bit too much at 2 5/8", the front sight diapears unless I think about when mounting the gun. As ussual for me though the faster I mount the gun the better it comes up since I tend to bring my face forward when mounting pronto. My ideal for a shotgun is 1 1/2" at comb and 2 1/4" at heel. Length of pull is 14 15/16" and 15" is perfect for me with a srtaight gripped shotgun. I thought it would be a bit too long with the pistol grip but it feels really perfect.

Some neat fetures of the rifle are its a back action sidelocks with bolsters and about 90% English style scoll engraving. I has an extended trigger gaurd tang and an extended, over the comb top tang. I also has a bolted non auto sefety. The photos the seller sent do not do the rifle justice, not even close. One standing and two spring loaded folding rear sights on a quarter rib. The front bead is too small for my 43yr old eyes but is similar to the NEGC beads for their masterpeice style banded front sight and is held with a set screw at the muzzle end, ie, into the ramp fore and aft.

I'll post photos soon if I can. My digital went tits up a couple of weeks ago and I'm heading out of town for two weeks Sat but will try to post photos before I go.

I'm hoping to take this rifle with me to Zimbabwe and use it on two cape buffulo. I'll be hunting with Roger Whittall's group in Chewore and then at Humani, or at least that is the current plan. I'll also take my 375H&H for backup and everything else.

Any thoughts or comments apreciated, on the safari plans or the rifle, really apreciated. Especially the sugestion by JJ to leave the gun as a 458wm.

Just noticed how long this post is... sorry but I'm bubbling over!

JPK


foxfire
(.375 member)
16/03/05 03:17 PM
Re: My new double riffle

The gun sounds great, congratulations and enjoy it.

NE450No2
(.375 member)
16/03/05 06:14 PM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK
You lucky dog. I was at Champlins last Saturday. JJ had just left the range after testing a few rifles, yours being one. I saw the targets and handled your rifle. It is very nice, very nice. It shoots good.In fact I tried to get JJ to call you and tell you it was stolen/blew up/got struck by lightening, etc.
When you get it just test it with the different 458 factory loads till you find the ones that shoot the best. Be sure and test it with Federals 350 gr round nose, that makes a great deer, black bear, wild pig etc load.
Keep us posted on how she shoots.

Once again it is a Nice Rifle.
I also handled a 700 Nitro, 2 600 Nitros and a 577 Nitro.
The best feeling of the ultra large bores was the Marcel Thys 600 Nitro. It is Mark Sullivans double. I have handled it before, it is a nice rifle too.


Rusty
(.333 member)
16/03/05 08:39 PM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK,
Congratulations! Welcome to the Double Rifle Shooters Society!


4seventy
(Sponsor)
16/03/05 10:45 PM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK
Wow! Congrats!
I have to admit to the fact that I'd love to own a sidelock Thys double.
I would love to see some photos of your new gun.
Any chance?


new_guy
(Sponsor)
17/03/05 01:22 AM
Re: My new double riffle

Marcel Thys, you can't do much better than that!

As for all that arm-chair gunsmith, rimmed, belted extraction BS you read here - I'm glad to see that you actually consulted with a well known gunsmith for his professional opinion.

PS - as for the Chambering... Thys has got to be one of the top gunmakers in the world. JJ is definitely the one of the top 2 gunsmiths for doubles in this country.

Thys built the gun and JJ OK'd it. What more could you ask for? An H&H reccomendation? Purdey? Rigby? Piotti? LeBeau Courally? They all build their share of guns in belted cartridges too.

Serously, ask yourself - honestly - who do you think is less opinionated and who do you consider to be the more knowledgeable expert? The guys here and at AR or Marcel Thys and JJ?


Chasseur
(.375 member)
17/03/05 01:42 AM
Re: My new double riffle

Congradulations JPK!

JJ is a great guy. He just put my darling French SxS 12 guage back on face, and I look forward to shooting it this weekend!


ThomasEdwards
(.300 member)
17/03/05 02:48 AM
Re: My new double riffle

...sounds like you have a winner...congratulations...would also be interested to hear what your ph has to say about the use of the .458wm round in a double...

new_guy
(Sponsor)
17/03/05 02:55 AM
Re: My new double riffle

In reply to:

...sounds like you have a winner...congratulations...would also be interested to hear what your ph has to say about the use of the .458wm round in a double...




Thank you, ThomasEdwards - that's my point exactly. Why does it matter what the PH thinks - does he know more about how to build a reialble Double Rifle than Marcel Thys? C'mon.

I doubt he'd ask you to rely on JJ Perodeau's advice for how to outfit a safari for 21-days or how to deal with a charging whatever that had horns and long teeth.

The same applies to the Dr.s, Accountants, Lawyers, Sofware Developers and even Outfitters on these forums.

You shouldn't rely on your PH to handle your estate planning and likewise - probably shouldn't rely on your CPA for his expert advice on the design and chambering of Double Rifles.


JPK
(.375 member)
17/03/05 12:54 PM
Re: My new double riffle

Thanks for your welcome and kind comments on my new rifle. I'll try to get my digital working tommorrow for pics.

Well, I shot my rifle today. First its pretty clear that JJ is a better shot than I and used to open sights and heavy recoil. Today I shot off a tripod of sticks or offhand. The most rifle I've shot before is my 375H&H. Good news is that the recoil isn't any more unpleasant with my new rifle than with my 375H&H. That rifle weighs 9 1/2 lbs and the recoil is a "wake me up", my new rifle is 10lbs 9oz. I shot a couple 270gr and 300gr 375 rounds to tune up for what I expected to be a beating. I started with 350gr Federal loads and was pleasently suprised that I didn't land on my backside. In fact the 500gr loads were ok too. More than the 375 but with more push and less sharp. I shot 24 458 rounds today, 14 350's, 5 500 solids and 5 510 softs and I'm not sore or bruised.

I only tried four acuracy shots and these were with the 350 Federals. Off the sticks they shot horizontally level or maybe a half in" low with POA but crossed with the rights 2-3" left of poa and the lefts the same but right of poa.(all shots at 50yds)

With the 500's the groups were low maybe 2" and a bit left. I wasn't trying too hard just getting used to the gun. I might have tried for accuracy but I only brought 5 softs and 5 solids with me, not expecting to be able to shoot more than a few at a session. Shooting offhand was a treat. I shot six quick 350's and all were in a 6" ball a bit left and high of POA.

The front trigger is considerably heavier than the rear and this is annoying. It needs to be lightened. The rear trigger is great and breaks clean just at the moment or a touch before you expect it to.

Though the stock has cast off and I'm a lefty the groups were definitely more left than JJ's. This I atribute to the guns inability to recoil too far right since my cheek and right hand are there. The gun felt great even though its set up for a righty. I can feel the cheek peice under the heel of my left hand but its no bother.

Ejection and extraction were flawless. Empties land 10' behind, a foot or two apart. I like a leather covered recoil pad on my shotguns but the leather covered pad on this rifle seemed to want to wander over my shoulder no matter what I did. I think I'm going to try to roughen it up to get it to stop sliding around.

I think I need to buy another 22 and leave this one with open sights modified to duplicate the Thys and my 375's express style sights to relearn how to shoot open sights.

Thanks again,

JPK


ThomasEdwards
(.300 member)
17/03/05 02:18 PM
Re: My new double riffle

...you're welcome...

...respectfully, but i think that my point was merely that ph's have field insight about whether or not the 'rimmed' vs. 'non-rimmed' cartridge debate has any validity in dg hunting situations...without doubt, thys is a fine dg maker and jj is a top dg smith, but the issue here is failed extraction in stressful/less-than-ideal hunting situations...

...in any case, the ph's views would merely be another datapoint from which to frame your own thinking on the matter...i would think...

cheers,

te


4seventy
(Sponsor)
17/03/05 02:52 PM
Re: My new double riffle

Thomas,
Well said!


CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
17/03/05 03:01 PM
Re: My new double riffle

I agree with Alan.

More info is better than less info, no matter the source. We marshall the info in accordance with its relevance and the established authority of the source.

While JJ and Marcel Thys may be great technicians, the PH may well know more about what happens when the shit hits the fan.

I'm not saying one source is better than the other, but I am saying that everybody has something to bring to the discussion. With all the information gathered, we are able to make better choices.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know squat about hunting conditions in Africa. I hardly can claim much hunting skill in my own back yard. That in itself makes me interested to hear the PH's opinion and experience.

P.S. - I'd like to see a pic of that Thys. Maybe a detailed description would hold us off until a pic is available.

Best to all,

Curl


new_guy
(Sponsor)
17/03/05 03:41 PM
Re: My new double riffle

Thomas, sorry - the comment was not aimed at you.

It's just that the "expert" opinions never ceases to amaze me, and here's a prime example of the one of the finest gun makers on the planet and as fine gunsmith as can be found in the US blessing a rifle that directly contradicts what the "experts" on these forums believe.

Seriously guys, how many double rifles do you think a PH sees in the field every year - more than Marcel Thys????

How many can the PH speak to the operational integrity of.

JPK (after reading the posts on these forums) was to the point that he was going to have the rifle rechambered before he ever saw it.

This is simply a crazy argument.



mickey
(.416 member)
17/03/05 03:56 PM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK

Congrats. I have a Thys in .577 and its a very nice rifle. I also had a 470 but it was just a bit too light so I sold it. A mistake I have since regreted.

JJ did his apprenticeship with Thys and Marcel was the Head Instructor at the Liege Gun School. JJ may have worked on that very rifle.

You will get better loads by handloading unless you get really lucky. I would guess the gun would have been regulated with Browning Ammo as that is what they usually used until Federal got to Belgium.

Why not give them a call and ask? Ask to speak to Eric Thys.


luv2safari
(.400 member)
17/03/05 04:27 PM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK,

I will never work right, is in the wrong caliber and can get you killed in a tight spot.

This being said, sell it to me at a drastic loss...just to keep yourself alive. ...now, where is the "green with jealousy gremlin" icon...


4seventy
(Sponsor)
17/03/05 04:49 PM
Re: My new double riffle

In reply to:

It's just that the "expert" opinions never ceases to amaze me, and here's a prime example of the one of the finest gun makers on the planet and as fine gunsmith as can be found in the US blessing a rifle that directly contradicts what the "experts" on these forums believe.





new guy,
I thought this thread was about JPK's new rifle not on bashing forum experts.

JPK
I hope you realize that Curl and myself will be losing sleep untill we get to see some photo's.
Can't wait!


ThomasEdwards
(.300 member)
17/03/05 11:18 PM
Re: My new double riffle

new guy,

...no offense taken...just friendly debate to celebrate jpk's new purchase and to expand the realm of knowledge for us dg/double rifle enthusiasts...


CptCurlAdministrator
(.450 member)
17/03/05 11:30 PM
Re: My new double riffle

In fairness to New Guy I must say I agree in principle with his thesis. I believe he is saying that one should not reject the configuration of this DR out of hand simply because the standard dogma promoted by "experts" who may or may not have expertise, would go against it.

I understand the ideal. Rimmed cartridge, low pressure, SxS. I agree that's ideal. I don't agree that this ideal excludes all else in every situation.

On other threads I have made the statement that quite functional, desirable, and acceptable DR's are made for rimless or belted rimless cartridges operating at higher pressure levels than traditional British nitro cartridges. Most recently we discussed this on .375 H&H in a double rifle.

My comments were more toward the .375 H&H Mag. and smaller rimless cartridges such as .30-06, etc.

On that thread DUGABOY1 made a compelling argument that in the hunt of dangerous game in Africa one should not compromise from the ideal configuration. That may very well be sound advice. I would give it thoughtful consideration. Maybe he will post further comments here.

Having owned one, I know the difficulty of loading for a .458 Mag. Often it's difficult to seat a bullet on a powder charge taken straight from the loading tables. I suspect chamber pressures mount quickly as powder charges are increased.

Having neither experienced Africa nor dangerous game, I have nothing to add there. I understand DUGABOY1 has substantial experience to retell.

I do think I would prefer a DR in .450 NE over one in .458 Win Mag, all other factors being equal. But all other factors are never equal, so one must weigh the decision based on all available information. The PH may or may not have something to add (which was the only point to my last post).

In closing, I'll say again that we would like to see a pic. It sounds like a dandy.

Best to all,
Curl


new_guy
(Sponsor)
18/03/05 01:07 AM
Re: My new double riffle

In reply to:

new guy,
I thought this thread was about JPK's new rifle not on bashing forum experts.





Yes, 4seventy it is - we're still 100% completely on track
Or did you read the final sentence in his post in which he requested thoughts on the chambering of the gun?

In reply to:

Any thoughts or comments apreciated, on the safari plans or the rifle, really apreciated. Especially the sugestion by JJ to leave the gun as a 458wm.





PS - No one is bashing the forum experts. Obviously you missed the connection between the post and my comments. I'll try to be more specific.

JPK asked about the chambering, with the implication that the opinions expressed here might differ with those of JJ, i.e.: leave the gun in 458.

My response was to highlight the point that
1) a top-rated gun builder thought the caliber was OK
2) a top-rated gunsmith thought the caliber and ejection were OK also.

In summary, my argument was that these two opinions represent many fold more encounters and many more hours of experience in the DR field... not only in building, but also on working on double rifles.

Thus, the logical conclusion was that the two opinions he had already received (from recognized experts in thier fields)... Far outweighed the opinions expressed here (by enthusiasts that own and shoot DR, but do not have the credentials of the former two).

In short, Marcel Thys & JJ Perodeau know more than we do, so thier opinions outweigh ours as related to the question regarding chambering.


DUGABOY1
(.400 member)
18/03/05 07:51 AM
Re: My new double riffle

First congratulations is in order here for a new First time owner of a double rifle! Especially one he likes!

On the highjacking of this post to start a brue-ha-ha, I have to agree with NEW_GUY on one thing MT, and JJ are far more experienced in the building and chambering of double rifles to satisfy thier customer base! The fact is, the customer base's wants, for rifles, in general, is not an indicator of the advisability of a certain chambering, or rifle type, or the combination of the two, for any particular purpose! (Read push feed rifles chambered for DG cartridges) there those who like those as well!

In this case the "opinions" of JJ, and MT, are informed ones where the machanical quality is concerened! How that machanical quality remains viable under all conditions is suspect, however! Neither of these people are well informed, IMO, where the Buffalo in the bush, is upon you, and the dust is thick, and nearves make muscles as strained as steel springs. In an old Texas saying, "When it gets down to the nut cuttin, everythig better work right", is my take on the chambering for a double rifle used for DG!

The 458 Win Mag is not my favorite round in any rifle! That being said,the cartridge properly loaded, is a good cartridge, just not the best, IMO! The fact that this rifle was made to handle this round, is machanicly sound. My objection, to this, is not the strength of the rifle, but the quality of the 458 Win Mag cartridge,firstly, and secondly,the fact that the rimless, belted case is just not as reliable in a double rifle, in as many sittuations as is, even the same cartridge, if it had a flanged case! JJ will tell you that himself!

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not, for one minute, suggesting that I know more than either JJ, or the maker, about the reliabiliy of the combination on their range! I can, however, tell you things seldom happen under the perfect conditions, 15 yds from a rushing Cape Buffalo,or Elephant, that they do on a clean range, where nothing is lost if the rifle does not work properly. The rifle belongs to the new owner, and as such it should be left "as is" if that is what he wants! I have absolutely no objection to that, but if it were mine, I would have JJ re-chamber to 450NE 3 1/4", and re-reguulate!

Now the fact that New_Guy disagrees with 90 % 0f the people who own, use, and hunt dangerous game with double rifles, is simply an opposing opinion, and no more valid than the opinion of anyone else, but serves as a buffer to the "one size fits all" mentality! That is why they make scotch, and gin, different people like different drinks! As long as your head is the only one that aches, drink what you want! I'll drink Ice tea, and hunt with a clear head, and I'll hunt DG with a double rifle chambered for a flanged cartridge!


4seventy
(Sponsor)
18/03/05 09:00 AM
Re: My new double riffle


In reply to:

PS - No one is bashing the forum experts



new guy
I guess the comment that had my attention was....

"As for all that arm-chair gunsmith, rimmed, belted extraction BS you read here"

I don't have any problem with that statement however, just thought others might.



500grains
(.416 member)
18/03/05 09:36 AM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK,

A Marcel Thys sidelock is a rifle to be proud of.


new_guy
(Sponsor)
18/03/05 11:17 AM
Re: My new double riffle

In reply to:

Now the fact that New_Guy disagrees with 90 % 0f the people who own, use, and hunt dangerous game with double rifles, is simply an opposing opinion, and no more valid than the opinion of anyone else




100% agreed. It's in the discussion of these issues that we all have the opportunity to learn something from experiences that differ from our own. The challenge is to be open-minded enough to learn.

Regardless a MT double is a treasure to behold in the gun making world.

For the record, I'd (personall) rechamber it to 450... BUT I'd go through the trouble (and expense) to send it back to MT to do it. Why? It'll be in the maker's "books" that way won't detract from the gun's value in the long-run.



NitroXAdministrator
(.700 member)
18/03/05 12:01 PM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK

Congratulation on your new double rifle. From the sounds of it you will love owning and using it.

I have always wondered where all these belted magnum doubles are going to as there are a significant number being sold every year yet no one owns one! It always has also been a wonder if they are so bad why virtually all double rifle makers make them as well and have done so for years.

Have a look at some of the doubles for sale on the net. Lots of .318 Rimless doubles from the vintage era. Given they are not big bores but they certainly were used years ago.

Having said that I do think a rimmed cartridge is a better choice all other things being equal. But it is a matter of relativeness. It is NOT necessary to have everything perfect to take a rifle hunting. I would guess les than 20% of bolt actions used on DG are "perfect" if such a thing exists. Also I have always wondered how all the 'old-timers' survived often using far less than perfect rifles, calibres, ammunition. Old BP 'bore' single shots, crappy ex-military rifles and ammo, push-feed bolt actions ( ), old Kynoch ammo .... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe they were just less stressed about the whole deal and just got on with it.

And these guys often did not have a PH holding their hand.

Of course playing the percentage game could get one squashed. But there are worse ways to go.


..................


Have fun with your new double gun!



JPK
(.375 member)
18/03/05 12:50 PM
Re: My new double riffle

You guys are having an intresting debate and the same one I've been having with myself too.

By the way if JJ did the work it would be entered into MT's "books" This was sugested by JJ. He was very enthusiastic about looking at the rifle when we first talked and his previous ties with MT are the reason why. He said to get it on the "books" all he would need to do is call Marcel and get him to write a letter... I'm not sure of Belgian proof rules but it would seem that that kind of work would require repfoof. I'd be happy to shoot the gun without reproof but it would be something that should be done at some not too distant point.

As for balistics of the 458wm, it really for me comes down to the fact that a good bullet of 500gr or, 480gr .458" or .476" or close at 2050 or 2100 or better 2150 is going to do the job on anything and it doesn't matter one bit what the cartridge that fires it is named. (not in this paragragh discussing feed and/or extraction and ejection issues, or even really action type ) I personaly have zero experience here but about a hundred years of others' experience seem to prove this out.

From Kynamco's web sight they give the balistics of the 450NE 3 1/4" as a 480gr at 2150 out of a 28" barrel, ie a lot of blue sky for a shorter length rifle. Energy figures are 4930 again out of a 28" barrel and so lots of blue sky.

Their 470 numbers are for the 500grs OUT OF A 31" BARREL at 2125 and 5030. Talk about blue sky!

Looking at Federals' #'s the 470 is shown pushing 500gr at 2150 out of a more realistic 24" with energy at 5132 and I've been told there's some optimism in those #s but not that much, maybe 50 - 100fps.

Federals 458wm #'s are 500grs at 2090 and 4849 again out of 24". I've been told these #'s are actually pretty close with maybe 50fps of optimism.

My riffle has 26" barrels and I hoping it will see about those #'s with a load that will match regulation. Early indications seem to be that the barrels are together with the federal load but about 2" low. If so a simple change of front sights might do or if not I'll have to find a load that will work. I haven't shot the gun near enough and don't have near enough experience to say where I'll end up if I keep going with the 458wm.

I don't have a chrono but a fellow I know who loves good rifles has invited me down to his range to use his and I'm going to take him up on that. Anyone have any real world #'s for their rifles with loads that work?

I beleive that the problems with the 458wm are pretty much a thing of the past and modern powders and keeping your ammo fresh have overcome bad history whether you're talking factory or reload. In fact I've read here or on AR that Horniday's heavy magnum, advertised at 2260fps actually clocks those #'s out of a 22" barrel, and all within SAAMI specs. Won't do me much good since the chances that that stuff would match regulation are nil, but that kind of puts the kbosh on the idea of 458wm not being up to snuff. Those numbers beat the Kynamco #'s by a huge margin and are close to Lott factory #'s.

On the other hand If I was building a bolt rifle it would be in 458 Lott loaded to an honest 2150 though.

Anyway those are my thoughts for what they're worth.

By the way, whats the trick to taking good photos of rifles. I got my wife's digital out today and took my rifle outside ( overcast day ) and all I got were photos of what could have been a dark 2x4. Tried again with a light shining on the gun and the flash and the photos were hardly better. I would love to post good photos or send them to someone who would post them for me.

Thanks,

JPK


4seventy
(Sponsor)
18/03/05 12:51 PM
Re: My new double riffle

In reply to:

and no more valid than the opinion of anyone else




I don't believe all internet opinion shares equal validity.

Personally I tend to rate the opinions based on unbiased first hand experience far higher than the ones based on armchair theory.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell which is which however!


4seventy
(Sponsor)
18/03/05 01:07 PM
Re: My new double riffle

JPK
Something I've noticed regarding all the nay saying about 458 Win is that the ones who tend to make the most noise concerning it's problems are also often the ones who have the least amount of experience with it and in some instances they may actually have none.

I'll stir the pot a little here and say that I'd be happy to leave that Thys as a 458 if it were mine, shoot the hell out of the thing on targets and non dangerous animals, see how reliable it is, then make a decision.


JPK
(.375 member)
18/03/05 01:08 PM
Re: My new double riffle

By the way, I should point out that if this rifle had been chambered in 470NE, I probably could not have afforded it.

And yes, I used the chambering to get the seller to come off his asking price, which was already reduced because of the chambering. He failed to sell the rifle at SCI and apparently got some serious negative feedback due to its chambering. I was leary enough to price up the conversion to 450NE 3 1/4" before negotiating on price. And sent the rifle to JJ for a check and to make sure it could be converted too.

It actually suprised me that JJ sugested leaving it 458wm. Also for what its worth the conversion cost would not have come anywhere near the price difference between this rifle and a similar one in a rimmed cartridge. The seller has a 500 or 577 Thys sidelock for sale at a multiple of what I paid for this rifle.

JPK


ALAN_MCKENZIE
(.400 member)
18/03/05 01:25 PM
Re: My new double riffle

New Guy said:-As for all that arm-chair gunsmith, rimmed, belted extraction BS you read here - I'm glad to see that you actually consulted with a well known gunsmith for his professional opinion.

Be very carefull what you say because you are starting to sound like the ARMCHAIR EX-SPERT !!!!


new_guy
(Sponsor)
18/03/05 02:35 PM
Re: My new double riffle

No, I'm not pretending to be an expert... nor do I believe anything in my previous posts implies such.

I've ownded 3 double rifles and only have 2 now, certainly can't work on one, regulate it and can't imagine what it takes to actually build one.

My only agenda is to try and get others to consider differing opinions with their predetermined prejudices aside.

Approaching any subject with two sides - and not lending any credibility to the opposing point of view (based on the logical and proven credentials of this subject) is BS.

I've owned doubles in rimmed and belted cartridges, so i have no agenda for one over the other.

And JPK has a good point on the percieved value of these guns - when you run across a belted or rimless double at a good price, let JPK or I know.


mickey
(.416 member)
18/03/05 03:34 PM
Re: My new double riffle

Just a couple of comments to keep things rolling.

While JJ may be able to get a rechamber in the Thys books because of their relationship (close)unless he has made a Liege Proof House stamp the rifle will be unproofed.

Marcel, who built the rifle in the mid 80s, is not a hunter. Most of the famous gun making companies were run by non hunters and the gunmakers almost never hunted. They relied on their customers to tell them what to build.

The 458 headspaces on the very slight shoulder. There is no bolt head to extract it if it sticks. there is nothing wrong with it in a proper action but a Double is not it.

I think you did good getting it with the idea of converting it to a 4502 or a 450 3 1/4. It will probably be fine as a 458 but I am a firm believer that Murphy was an Optimist.



4seventy
(Sponsor)
18/03/05 04:28 PM
Re: My new double riffle

Here's a little bit of info that may be of interest concerning the 458 Win Mag.

It is often claimed that one of the main reasons that Jack Lott designed the 458 Lott cartridge was because in the late 50's he had been tossed by a Buffalo which had been wounded by him with a 458.
It is usually claimed that the 458 was the culprit and that Jack blamed the cartridge performance, or lack of it, as the reason for the wounding of the Buff as well as the resulting injury when he was tossed.

Well, it aint true!
Sure, Jack was tossed and injured by a wounded bull and he was indeed using a 458 Win, but..........

Jacks two shots were Not well placed.
His first shot, a soft, entered the ribs and went into the gut.
His second, a solid, broke a front leg below the shoulder, went into the gut also, and didn't damage anything vital on the way.
The next 7 shots by the PH from a 375 failed to have any real effect either.
Those 7 shots were supposed to be "well placed".
The PH, Wally Johnson, ended up finishing the bull with a shot to the back of the head from the 458.





AussieMike
(.300 member)
18/03/05 06:43 PM
Re: My new double riffle

In terms of the POI being low, it just may need a slightly brisker load. I've played extensively with four doubles - two act as expected and shoot apart at lower velocities, come together and then cross at higher velocities. The other two will shoot the correct weight bullet together at a range of velocities (+/- 100fps) but with about a 6" variation at 50 yds in elevation - faster = higher. Calibres are 375H&H and 470. Maybe try some of those premium loads which give higher velocity at normal or lower pressures. they are currently being discussed in the big bore rifle section.

BTW - if I was planning a DG trip and was not a handloader I'd buy a rifle in 458 rather than 470 because for a given amount of money you can have so much more practice with a 458 because of the lower cost and I reckon this would more than make up for any possible risk of failed extraction.

mike



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